Obama's Assault on Fifth Amendment Rights

Minimum moderation and heated debates.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Obama's Assault on Fifth Amendment Rights

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:15 pm

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20078 ... opStories2

Obama's DOJ is seeking to force the accused to either give up her passphrase or decrypt her laptop.

More importantly, why aren't people using encryption techniques that provide plausible deniability of the existence of any encrypted files?
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Disoputlip
Sojourner
Posts: 956
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Copenhagen

Re: Obama's Assault on Fifth Amendment Rights

Postby Disoputlip » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:37 pm

From article:

Code: Select all

The Obama administration has asked a federal judge to order the defendant to...


Does anyone know what that actually mean in this case? I am especially interested in if anyone can link this "order" directly to the white house.

In Denmark the law is very clear on this. You can't order it. But it is suspected police treat it as a "coorporation with police" if they give passwords.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Obama's Assault on Fifth Amendment Rights

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:23 pm

Interesting arguments. If they can already compell you to produce a key to a safe, isn't that the same as producing a password? or a DNA sample? or I like their argument, just type the password in, we won't watch. Law enforcement already has a right to the data, they got a subpoena and search warrant... if it was behind a locked door and you won't provide the key, they can break down the door and take it because they have a right to the contents per the search warrant... how is a laptop different?

The argument that producing the key/password is equivalent to testifying that you have control of the item does also seem to an issue of self incrimination.

I don't like it, but a search warrant is a violation of your privacy by definition.
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Obama's Assault on Fifth Amendment Rights

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:21 pm

Disoputlip wrote:From article:

Code: Select all

The Obama administration has asked a federal judge to order the defendant to...


Does anyone know what that actually mean in this case? I am especially interested in if anyone can link this "order" directly to the white house.

In Denmark the law is very clear on this. You can't order it. But it is suspected police treat it as a "coorporation with police" if they give passwords.

What this most likely mean is that the Department of Justice lawyers (prosecutors, as it were) have asked the judge to order the defendant to give up the password or decrypt her files. If the defendant chooses not to comply, a number of penalties may be enforced.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Teflor Lyorian
Sojourner
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Obama's Assault on Fifth Amendment Rights

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:23 pm

kiryan wrote:Interesting arguments. If they can already compell you to produce a key to a safe, isn't that the same as producing a password? or a DNA sample? or I like their argument, just type the password in, we won't watch. Law enforcement already has a right to the data, they got a subpoena and search warrant... if it was behind a locked door and you won't provide the key, they can break down the door and take it because they have a right to the contents per the search warrant... how is a laptop different?

The argument that producing the key/password is equivalent to testifying that you have control of the item does also seem to an issue of self incrimination.

I don't like it, but a search warrant is a violation of your privacy by definition.

There is precedent that a physical item like a key and something that resides solely within your mind are both very different and treated differently by the justice system.
"You see, the devil haunts a hungry man.
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: Obama's Assault on Fifth Amendment Rights

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:59 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:There is precedent that a physical item like a key and something that resides solely within your mind are both very different and treated differently by the justice system.

There is also a precedent that the government will waterboard you if they want something out of your mind badly enough.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Obama's Assault on Fifth Amendment Rights

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:22 pm

i dunno that i agree...

a judge at one point had held this guy in jail for like at least 2 or 3 years over contempt... might still be held. The contempt was he was ordered to produce this money he claims to have dumped into some sort of obfuscating scheme that made the money untrackable and it "disappeared." He claims its "lost" now and he can't get it back. He did this to avoid giving it to his ex in a divorce.

Is ordering him to produce the money any different than ordering him to produce the data on a laptop. If you are subpoenaed for any and all records related to xyz, can you refuse to produce them? Just because the government normally can just get them themself... doesn't mean the court doesn't have long standing precedence to order you to turn over data.

I tend to view the 5th amendment as protection from having to get on the stand and choose between lieing or going to jail. I'm not against expanding it to protect memorized passwords... but if it should apply there, why not locked safes too? just because the key is physical?

Return to “Current Events & Politics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests