A new and hopefully fair bidding system.

Gameplay discussion, questions and ideas.
Inama
Sojourner
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:45 pm

A new and hopefully fair bidding system.

Postby Inama » Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:13 pm

The Problem with Splitting Fairly:
Points are currently the way we have used to try to help even out how often people win and lose, but he problem with points systems are two fold.

1. It is cumbersome, requiring someone to maintain a points list and post it publicly.
2. There is no way to assess the true value of a win, especially if the same point system if used in multiple zones. For example, how many points is a win in Crypts worth compared to a win in Southern Forest or I.C. vault?

A Proposed New Bidding System:
In the real world item value is collectively decided through money, an object is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it. The same should be true in the mud, if you are willing to pay 10000 platinum for a fiery crown then that is what it is worth. In that vein I suggest the following system. Please keep an open mind and understand that all things have pros and cons, but I think this system should work with the proper adjustments. For now we will maintain the current bid system for Tiamat.

1. At the end of every zone people will bid(privately) in platinum how much they'd pay for the item they want. The person who bids the highest wins it and hands over that much platinum.
2. In the event of a tie I send both parties a tell asking them to bid again until the tie is broken.
3. Once first round bidding is complete all the platinum collected is evenly split among the losers.
4. Second round bids are handled normally with dicing to see who rolls highest. (optional rule)
5. Any bid over 10 000 p is charged a 10% surtax, any bid over 100 000 p is charged at 25% surtax, any bid over 1 000 000 p is charged a 50% surtax. The surtax is collected by the zone leader and not split. (optional rule)

Example:
glist: darkstone amulet, fiery crown, darkenbeast claws
group: Lilithelle, Rahas, Zipalodok, Pidibeple, Teguh, Alane
Lilithelle tells you (I talk to myself) 'bid 5000 p on darkenbeast claws.'
Pidibeple tells you 'bid 10000 p on darkenbeast claws.'
Zipalodok tells you 'bid 7500 p on darkenbeast claws.'
Teguh tells you 'bid 2500 p on fiery crown.'
Alane tells you 'bid 2500 p on fiery crown.'
Rahas tells you 'bid 3000 p on darkstone amulet.'
You tell Teguh 'There is a tie please bid again.'
You tell Alane 'There is a tie please bid again.'
Teguh tells you 'bid 4000 p on fiery crown.'
Alane tells you 'bid 5000 p on fiery crown.'

Pidibeple wins the claws and gives me 10000 p
Alane wins the crown and gives me 5000 p
Rahas wins the amulet and gives me 3000 p
The 18000 p collected is then split between Lilithelle, Zipalodok, and Teguh giving them 6000 p each.

Potential Problems and Solutions:
What about the idiot with 2 000 000 p that is willing to bid 100 000 p on crypts claws?
Their money should diminish fast if they bid aggressively while those with less money see their bank accounts rise, this will reduce future money imbalance.

Does this mean I have to carry 100 000 p with me at all times?
No, we will simply do the split in the bank after allowing players to switch to their alt which has the money.

What about the player who farms cash all day and all night, won't they be able to outbid everyone?
This too should reach a balance point causing somewhat higher prices but that farmed platinum will flow into everyone's pocket.

What about the new players who are poor, does that mean they can't bid or win a bid?
They should rapidly accumulate money from losing their bid which should make them happy, as well an open second round bid still gives them a chance to win eq, which to a new player would still be an improvement.

Won't their be price inflation? Will crypt claws start going for 100 000 p?
That is why rule 5 is in place, to keep prices reasonable and halt inflation.

Won't the zone leader make a killing keeping the surtax money?
This could be seen as an incentive to lead as a way of improving your finances, or we could agree it goes into a central pot that isn't spent. This money could be used to provide seed money to new players, so we give them 10000 p each to start out with.

I farm coins but most of it is in copper, silver, and gold; can I bid in lower currency?
No, that would be a pain in the behind, but the banker in Skullport has a quest that allows lower currency to be changed into platinum at no charge (1000 p at a time).

There is a problem that you haven't thought of, what do we do?
We can act dynamically and make changes, nothing is set in stone.

Advantages to this System:
The main advantage will be that there will be a kind of fairness, over time bids should even out with all winning similarly with items value balanced relative to one another. So a win on crypts claws might be worth 2000 p but a win on supple chainmail would be 50 000 p.

This should discourage people from bidding on items that they don't really need, since it will cost them to do so.

There is incentive for people to auction off eq that they are not using to raise money for bidding, even good items might start to appear on auction. If someone has 5 ring of seven stars maybe they'll auction one to get money to win that crown of fireballs they really want.

There is no point system to maintain, players will keep track of their own points as platinum.

In Closing:
Please look at this with an open mind, reply to this post with any comments, suggestions or questions. If the system doesn't work after a suitable test period we could abandon it.
mrizzalazzrazzi
Sojourner
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Malaysia

Re: A new and hopefully fair bidding system.

Postby mrizzalazzrazzi » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:59 am

I have one opinion. Since a player aka the zone leader manage the bidding system, the integrity of the bidding is open to doubt and manipulation. If the bidding system is managed by npc or the system i.e. auctioneer, i don;t think the issue of integrity is there. Dont get me wrong, i am not questioning good leader but it is more on integrity since it is handled by player.

Just my 2 cents.
Grishan
Sojourner
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:15 am

Re: A new and hopefully fair bidding system.

Postby Grishan » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:23 am

I'm excited to try the new system out.
I'll come up with something to help tweak it and make it more 'fair'.

Here's one thing I considered:
If 4 people are bidding on an item and they all agree to just roll in the existing fashion, let them.
I realizes this creates many more scenario's that should be addressed.

Say I win something I wanted to wear immediately. I would be inclined to offer the item I'm taking off to the glist if it's going to just sit in a bag for years.

Tafi needs to give me a circlet.
Inama
Sojourner
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:45 pm

Re: A new and hopefully fair bidding system.

Postby Inama » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:52 am

Good idea Grishan, we'll have to bounce those around.
Mriz, if there is doubts about fairness we can do the bids publicly. The reason not to is that would push up prices, cause if you seem someone bids 10000p you're going to bid 11000.
Inames
Sojourner
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:27 am

Re: A new and hopefully fair bidding system.

Postby Inames » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:04 am

That'd basically mean turning splits into a first round auction... But people can only bid on 1 item and it'd have to be declared to the leader (as per usual) before any bidding takes place. Perhaps including a starting bid with your item declaration and then starting the auction at the highest initial bid? That would be a pretty fair way of setting a baseline for what people think an item is worth. Then if someone solo bids an item that initial bid ends up being what they pay. I think that's a bit more fair than blindly offering an amount of plat that's not too insane and relying on luck to get your item. People having to leave early or before split concludes could (using the auction method) leave a maximum proxy bid as well...


I like the auction idea. I think it would prevent unnecessary price inflation as well, and possibly remove/mitigate the need for a surtax. I doubt any non-tia zone-level item would ever get beyond like 200k anyways.
[Dru 50] Inames (Grey Elf)
[Rog 50] Ishiras (Grey Elf)
[Enc 50] Aremat (Grey Elf)
[War 50] Amori (Grey Elf)
[Ran 50] Aninen (Grey Elf)
[Ele 50] Itanul (Grey Elf)
[Inv 50] Aleadis (Grey Elf)
[Bar 50] Ashire (Grey Elf)
[Cle 50] Isila (Grey Elf)
My Deviant Art Page
Elet
Sojourner
Posts: 184
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 6:01 am

Re: A new and hopefully fair bidding system.

Postby Elet » Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:12 am

Inames wrote:I like the auction idea. I think it would prevent unnecessary price inflation as well, and possibly remove/mitigate the need for a surtax. I doubt any non-tia zone-level item would ever get beyond like 200k anyways.


What about TK hitter cloak? ChP Girdle and Bracer? Still not going for that amount if people desperately need them? Im talking about those who doesnt have any. not those who already have them.
Rahas
Sojourner
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: A new and hopefully fair bidding system.

Postby Rahas » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:31 pm

My worries is that anyone not able to zone alot, like most european and asian players will need a very long time to be able to accumulate the cash needed to win top tier items.

Not a problem for people like me who has cash and items already but any old player wanting to come back or new players for that matter would find it very annoying to have to spend months getting funds for a decent bid.

Say the average euro/asian player can manage to zone once a week aside Tia. Compared to americans doing 5+ zones a week. It's gonna be near impossible for those players to compete with the ones who zones alot.

The way it is now you still have better odds to win stuff if you zone more, but at least those who are casual zoners have a chance when they do zone to win an item. With the new system they'd have to save for months for a shot at a good item. With the new system it will lean towards those already getting alot for zoning alot to get an even bigger advantage over casual players.

Probably won't be that many complaints even after the system is implemented and tested because those who gets badly affected by this are nowhere near as numerous as those who will reap benefits. More to rich, less to the already poor.
Inama
Sojourner
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:45 pm

Re: A new and hopefully fair bidding system.

Postby Inama » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:52 am

I am strongly sympathetic to the poor, I always help those in need. The amount of money you gain doing 5 zones a week should be exactly the same as the money gained doing 5 zones a month. So there is no advantage to zoning more often, except looked at on a per real life time basis. This is exactly as it is now, if you do 5 zones in a week you're likely to win as much eq as someone who zones 5 times in a month. That will not change. You are also looking at the system as a way you will gain money with over time. You only will gain money from this system if you bid less or lose more often. On average it should be revenue neutral to all involved. Because (unless I raise a tax) every platinum bid gets split to the players, so there should be no net gains in cash over time unless you decide to forfeit your bid. The reason for a tax will be to drain money out of the system to keep prices stable if we get high inflation of prices, so hopefully the casual player won't get priced out of the market.
Lilithelle
Rahas
Sojourner
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: A new and hopefully fair bidding system.

Postby Rahas » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:00 pm

The difference is now you have chance to win an item, with the new system casual players won't even have that.
To say the new system will be fair is a joke, it is fair to americans who can spend the time to zone alot. Is it so bad that someone who hasn't put in years has a shot at a really great item?
All this to make platinum getting a value again? and for what, just so the rich can make even more by selling off their shit gear to those who desperatly need to save their cash to be able get a decent bid in, which for some players will take months. If they win a great item the could trade it for a whole bunch of good gear which would make them better and of more use to groups.

I fail to see how this is fair by any means, please try to explain. Since as it is now if you zone more you win more, but you feel you need to shut people out and get even better odds for those who zone alot more?
Adriorn Darkcloak
Sojourner
Posts: 1294
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:11 pm
Location: Miami, FL

Re: A new and hopefully fair bidding system.

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:55 pm

Yeah, but America #1. Your argument is invalid.
"There is one big rule in life - the things you worry about never happen, and the things that happen are never the ones you expect." - John Bellairs
Zipa
Sojourner
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:43 am

Re: A new and hopefully fair bidding system.

Postby Zipa » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:34 am

I can only view it as unfair to a newbie, if they make dumb bid decisions(then that only till plat distributes). As is going for only end game gear. A new guy shouldn't walk into end game gear, proposed system forces them to gear up a ladder(which uses parts of the game currently dead), instead of only going for end game gear, unless they wish to compete with people who only need end game gear(which promotes worth to time for whom puts it in). If it doesn't force them, then they will waste bids and gain Platinum. That's their decision, to waste bids or plat on something they don't want. If they want only end game gear, then yes this wait period to win will be much longer. But again, thats their decision. One I see balancing out once the plat distributes. One can say someone like me has what they want, but I've already walked up that ladder(same with any thats been here say 15years+), as is it barely exists(a ladder to gear up to). If you played that long, you did not walk into end game gear as you would "now" off the rip. The whole core "fun" part of the game shouldnt be solely based upon earning end-game-gear, but rather progression. I'd love it to be more on skilled based play, but nobody seems to be able to help that...

I can't consider "casual" since we only do big zones 2 days a week, on rare week we do 3. Big zoning is already casual as is. So if a player can't make 2 zones a week, what else would be casual? 2times a month? at which point does this effect the majority? Again, big zoning is already casual. Then what exactly defines casual? This term is so subjective, open argument if you will. If we could define "casual player" for certain across board, then maybe something can be done better for it. Without such a method, its all subjective to what someone thinks of someone. No true definition if you will.

I've proposed higher dice roll chance for coin-looted-from-mobs-in zones(if we're to dice roll that loot between whole group), for casual players. But again. Define "casual players". Which makes said proposal hard to finalize.

Only 2 core negatives I see. Which can be 3. Which is "casuals" and afk bot farming and/or afk group plat farming.

Compared to a wealth of positives it promotes. Ability to work towards a zone, when there is no zone(earning plat) promotes player activity instead of afk. Ability to buy end game gear for plat. A dead currency coming to life, Plat. A market place that has life in it, instead of just cause. Storage hoarding, because said items have no value in trade for you currently, but are still nice items, being sold on auction because Plat will now have value. People being reluctant about bidding duplicate items, as is they bid them now for trade value or just cause. Quest items being bidded, just because its a quest item, stopping others from doing it. Worth to time you put in always, instead of bad luck streaks. Promotes grouping for plat(more xp groupos for people to join), which promotes your activity, same to be said if your a item twinker and sell it, promotes your activity. Forces a ladder of progression of gear in game, unless you wish to waste plat and/or bids. Brings life to 2-5 steps below end game gear. This is all off the top of my head, there is more. Thats really the beauty of the system, basically creates game code without code, that brings life to dead parts of the game.

Any other negative I see being handled by the tax bracket, or bid method adjustments. But hindsight is 20/20.... Quite frank I'm more concerned with methods someone can use to break the system. But I can't think of any atm. Any thats been proposed has been based upon hear-say info, not whats posted here.

Such as if only people who bid same item win plat off lost of said item. But that is not proposed here as I read it. Such way of splitting would defeat the purpose. As I read it, the proposed method will split the auctioned plat amoung all losers of first round, not just whom bidded on the item.
Rahas
Sojourner
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: A new and hopefully fair bidding system.

Postby Rahas » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:55 am

It's the forces a ladder of progression that I'm against. Why now, none of us hardcore have ever suffered it? Why is there a need to make sure new players, casual players and returning old players don't win end gear eq? I still Think it's better that they can win a great item and trade for a bunch of lesser items if they wish. I see no need to keep them back, they will be of even less use if we do that. What's next forcing, forcing them to start by doing low and mid-lvl zones because we want the to "climb the ladder"? It's sad that it has come to treating people differently.

One big flaw is money will never even out it will stay with those zoning the most. So effectively you are shutting some players out period. Noone is going to want to save plat for year before they can make a decent bid.

Also as we discussed earlier, there is the issue of the !sell flag, for this economy to work all items need to be sellable and be able to be put on auction.

Return to “GCC: Gameplay Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest