Bahamut... (lack of interest, rewards, etc.)

Gameplay discussion, questions and ideas.
Vooku
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Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:02 pm

Bahamut... (lack of interest, rewards, etc.)

Postby Vooku » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:24 pm

Yesterday marked the 4th death of the mighty Bahamut. Even though many changes have been made to the difficulty of this zone it still took our group of 25ish 8 hours (and hundreds of corpses) to complete. This post isn't meant to be a rant in any way but what I hope to be an honest report of the general consensus on this zone. I know not every player feels this way, but from listening to group conversations yesterday I believe this to be how most players feel.

We all know we aren't any where near being proficient with this zone. There is still a lot to learn but many players (including myself) feel that freeing up 6-8 hours in our busy lives for the rewards just isn't worth the time. With minor changes (see Gerin, Daratan) we could probably cut this down to 4 hours, but my fear is too many players are losing interest in the zone and the likelihood it gets done often enough to become proficient is a pipe dream. During yesterdays run quite a few players said this run would be their last.

The length of time is just one of the concerns. Generally, most feel that the rewards are a little lack-luster and too few in number for a group of 25+. Gerin posted some bugs with the gear on November 18 which still haven't been addressed. (Lareth dagger procs, meteoric flail procs and the deva earring not recharging unless you rent out). Many feel when compared to the Tiamat rewards (for a 2-3 hour commitment) they just aren't worth a 6-8 hour investment of time.

That being said, I love this zone. It's a challenge and as a Bahamut buff, love seeing the lore surrounding the King of all good dragons. It would be a shame if this zone fell out of interest to the point where it rarely sees adventurers.

Gerin, Dartan... feel free to chime in on some changes that would shorten the length of time but still make it a challenge. Some bosses did repop at an inopportune time and was told it was corrected but hasn't been copied over as of yet.
Vooku (50 Barb Shammy)
redgoat
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Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:38 pm

Re: Bahamut... (lack of interest, rewards, etc.)

Postby redgoat » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:40 pm

Deleted.
Last edited by redgoat on Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lilabipple group-says, 'fuck you xessus'
toraza
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Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:00 am

Re: Bahamut... (lack of interest, rewards, etc.)

Postby toraza » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:13 am

One change that comes to mind is to make the final fights more inline with Tiamat:

Make Bahamut !track. Tiamat is !track so that seems like an easy one to accept. In exchange, make it so that you can't skip his 7 helper mobs, but tone them down a bit.

Also, I agree the rewards need to be fixed and probably also an upgrade.
Dalar
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Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Re: Bahamut... (lack of interest, rewards, etc.)

Postby Dalar » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:15 am

We are proficient in the zone. The only thing we haven't found is the 2nd or more win conditions for the zone which I believe is attacking Bahamut in his old man form. We know the fights and know how to clear them with the best tactics in my opinion. There are multiple issues with rewards and "difficulty"/time.

For difficulty/time, Gerin's best run was 6 and mine was 7 (without split), both which had multiple mishaps that could be reduced to 5 hours. Tiamat on Lili's average 25 man run is about 2-2.5 hours.

The major wipe points on Bahamut are

[*]The outer ring patrols due to no clean way out to safety on the first patrol
[*]Pious Dragonkin's para proc spam

The difficult fights that accumulate a ton of corpses or are time consuming:

[*]Multiple dragon procs killing people in one round. Buffet, tailswipe, breath all in one round on the same target. So one of the 5 dragon boss fights with 3 dragons or the 7 Bahamut Guardian fight
[*]Azhaq

If these 4 points were addressed they could help with the zone being shorter. Make the outer patrols a 30 second patrol (currently 18) or remove the # of mobs to kill to similar to Tiamat's patrols. Remove the Pious Dragonkin para proc and/or change it to slow. Fix dragon procs in general so they can't all fire off at once. Lower the number of angels on Azhaq as a similar fight like Dagos is a one run fight versus this. Separate the 7 Bahamut Guardians into 2 groups. Remove the kelp as it is just trash mobs to kill to take up time.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
baram
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Re: Bahamut... (lack of interest, rewards, etc.)

Postby baram » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:20 am

I don't think rewards matter. Its too long.

Including split, from midnight to 9am is not easy at our age.

I was exhausted, had to go to hospital yesterday.

I dont think i can join full zonage next.

I suggest to separate into three or more part, make some rentable but 100% chance to break keys

or some quest to enter the bahamut portal
Dalar
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Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Re: Bahamut... (lack of interest, rewards, etc.)

Postby Dalar » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:25 am

Full loot breakdown at the end.

The Bahamut loot is lackluster due to the 50/50 split of melee to caster rewards, the caster to melee ratio in groups is 1:3 to 1:4, and time to loot ratio is 50% of Tiamat.

There are 11 real item slots excluding instrument, potion, drink container being boobie prizes. TL;DR all the caster items are awesome and plentiful while the melee items are soso except mantle of BattleRager.

In a normal group you have 1 ench, 2 shaman, 2 cleric, 1 bard. Druid/necro/illu have no real use in Bahamut or Tiamat. On top of powers being an awesome addition to melee, most people have melee mains now due to the need to kill dragons. So you bring 6-8 casters and 15+ melee to a Bahamut/Tiamat run.

Tiamat you get somewhere between 8-11 items I think? I honestly forget nor have I done the analysis. Bahamut is 11 for sure. Tiamat is 2.5 hours easy while Bahamut is more like 5+.

Breakdown of the 11 slot rewards

NE tower: Tank shield is meh. Not much damage reduction nor vamp doing much in a fight. Crown of death dragon basically doesn't do anything meaningful because threat doesn't mean anything when everything dies so fast in most fights. Mantle is godly and makes Fay cloak useless.

SE Tower: Claw is a side grade to band of killing frost and dragonhunter is better. incardine eyepatch is BIS and makes all eyepatches useless to it. elvenkind cloak is decent but good only.

SW tower: Astral deva is awesome. Staff of Radiance is an interesting weapon. Necro belt is best in slot for necro

NW tower: Flail is best in slot for a priest. Scalemail is decent.

Champion is great loot. Prianthor's items are best in slot for invoker.

Bahamut's vault items are kind of weak.

Lareth being good only makes it useless while Cheetah paws are awesome boots but annoying to use due to the haste power.
Longbow is soso due to cold burst bow being on par as well as celestial might. Blade is good.
Masks are best in slot.
Hood unknown, ring of wizardry best in slot, strand best in slot.

NE tower:
Crown of death dragon
mantle of the BattleRager
Bastion of Defense

SE tower:
hollowed claw
incardine eyepatch
adamantine elvenkind cloak

SW tower:
astral deva tear
staff of radiance
necro belt

NW tower:
scalemail
flail
third item we haven't found yet?

Champion:
Spark
invoker boots

Prianthor chest:
maxagi caster belt
more stuff?
Either ililthid bracelet is here or off champion i forget

Bahamut:
heart - sf nature mask or sf healing mask. Possibly more based on how orbs have dropped
instrument slot
drink container slot
potion slot
obsidian blade/longbow slot
haversack/ammo belt slot
lareth/paws slot
hood/ring of wizardry/strand slot
orb slot. so far necro/invoker/illu/ench
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Afu
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Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:58 pm

Re: Bahamut... (lack of interest, rewards, etc.)

Postby Afu » Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:57 pm

My take, unbiased as i can be.

Zone itself:

I played a support role through my entire baha experience and was basically a chanter who scales everyone as fast
as i can and keeps the entire group buffed as best as possible. That being said, i did not get to see any mechanics of the
fights etc.

I do know that everyone was dying like crazy and it was fun to watch.
I also know that the every fight i entered, i died.

Why does killing everyone have to be the hard part. Death is easy,
know what sucks? 10 minute freeze in tiamat. thats better than dead.

I'm not sure if i really wanna be at a zone where the only tactic is throwing bodies at something until it is dead.
I've played that game, its starcraft and i rule with zerg, but i had the most fun with the other alien guys whatever
their name is, because they had intricate setups.

tactics that we never have, the tanks don't communicate, they just turn on mudlet and zzzzzz
until they have to lead a run

hard zones tanks should call it, using invul, so and so is next, omg sounds like a tank rotation from everquest.

dps should also coordinate, designate at least a main assist so everyone hits the same guy.

if you aren't at keys you can't do that.
Loot:

You guys threw hours at this zone, days just figuring out how to get past towers
everyone who did this deserves pretty much whatever they want out of the first
few bits. I don't think this should be on a time basis but an effectiveness basis.

Now thats outta the way

why must we always allow the old laws to bleed into the new day.

this is not sojourn, this is not even toril anymore really, its something else
that we made it.

dkp should be implemented and converted to in my opinion.
the point system would work exactly the way it does now,
but if you got 1400 points and want to spend them and noone can
or wants to bid more, the item is yours.

this would put a stop to point hording almost immediately and
make loot distribution much more fairerest.

all bids in open group, would end quickly, bids in 50 point increments

means you dont win one item you want, you can bid on a different one.
would add a great dynamic and 0 second round.

Point Acquirement:
I suggest 10 point afk checks randomly and another set afk check at intervals

You have 30 seconds to conform to the afk check, miss it, you lose points,
you answer it you gain points.

if you miss 4 or more afk checks you get no points for the day.

im harsh but was this game anything other than harsh?

we let newbies have hella rare gear only to watch them rent and delete.
Vooku
Sojourner
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:02 pm

Re: Bahamut... (lack of interest, rewards, etc.)

Postby Vooku » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:52 pm

Afu wrote:dkp should be implemented and converted to in my opinion.
the point system would work exactly the way it does now,
but if you got 1400 points and want to spend them and noone can
or wants to bid more, the item is yours.

this would put a stop to point hording almost immediately and
make loot distribution much more fairerest.


With that system you'll never get another Bahamut group again. You really think someone with 100 points will spend 6 hrs doing a zone when he/she knows they won't get an item? Won't happen. The chance you can get a high-end item is what gets low point players to invest the time.
Vooku (50 Barb Shammy)

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