Call to formalize point distribution for Bahamut

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Raiwen
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Call to formalize point distribution for Bahamut

Postby Raiwen » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:52 am

We need a formalized points distribution system for Bahamut, and without it, there's too much frustration for me to continue to join Bahamut groups.

There's been a few misunderstandings of several Bahamut runs. The informality of it tends to create discord and frustration.

On 7/5 we had 4 of us join late, we each got 25 pts. Completely fine and fair, late comers get less points.

The frustrating part:

It was shortly discussed in gsay that everyone would get a bid:

in gsay wrote:'fine, will let anyone bid but weighted'.


Later at bid:

in gsay wrote:'if you had points already you can bid, no if not, save for next run'
'(t's) not fair if you win at 25 and others have 150'
'... what i'm trying to do is set precedent for later'


Ok, I understand the precedent argument. I'm all for it.

Tonight (7/12 really), we did another Bahamut run, did 3/4 towers. I joined late, I get 25 pts. Cool. Completely fair, there's a precedent for this. I get it.

However, another character joined at the same spot 4 of us did on 7/5 - and this character was awarded 50 pts.

That's against precedent, though.

I'm not making any accusations. I'm not trying to attribute malice to something that which is easily subscribed to an honest mistake.

What I am advocating here is that we need a formalized points distribution system for Bahamut, and I believe that's the only way to prevent these misunderstandings from happening in the future.

Until that system is codified, then from a personal enjoyment perspective, I will find other things to occupy my time while Baha is being done.
Last edited by Raiwen on Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Raiwen
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Location: Atlanta, Ga USA
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Re: Call to formalize point distribution for Bahamut

Postby Raiwen » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:55 am

Additionally, there's an argument that I've heard:

argument wrote:The character class in question was highly needed (Cleric).


This maybe true, but that doesn't mean a cleric could not have been found, or that someone wouldn't have been pinged to log their cleric - or that everyone could leave the zone, and one player switch out to a cleric.

My point being, the "that's an important class" argument is a weak argument to the point that it's not an argument.

And if it is a valid argument, then let's set that as a precedent, and I'll play my cleric all day long...
Dalar
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Re: Call to formalize point distribution for Bahamut

Postby Dalar » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:09 am

Need a formalized point distribution and retroactive point fixes for the previous runs. I would say everyone who attended both runs should just get 50 points and define points for future runs based on what is killed and when people enter. None of this subjective as we go mentality.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Gyrx
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Re: Call to formalize point distribution for Bahamut

Postby Gyrx » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:45 am

I feel it's critical the loot system be ironed out. The mud's done a great job in the past of trying different systems and taking a vote after trying it out. No reason we can't try that here too :) Try Baha Loot System v1 for a few runs, get some feedback and adjust for Baha Loot System v2, rinse and repeat until satisfied!

It's not just about the points, the need to split the run over multiple days also creates issues and ambiguity if people can't make both trips. Low hanging fruit to point out: if you only need 50 points to bid on vault gear, then you can save ~half your time by only going on vault trips. You may have less points in the dice roll, but you save half of your time (rl time has greater default value than 50 points), so you're overall bang per point is greater if you only do vault trips. Then consider for work/family/etc. obligations maybe you can typically only make the tower trip, then your same 50 points are bidding against (mostly) lower quality gear.

And of course, loot time typically sucks for leaders. If we don't have a formal system in place, there's going to be more stress on the leader having to spend time going into low level detail on why XYZ loot related decision was made.

Let's make it easy for people to know what to expect before the join the group and minimize the headache for the leader :)
Dalar
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Re: Call to formalize point distribution for Bahamut

Postby Dalar » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:42 am

Gyrx wrote:I feel it's critical the loot system be ironed out. The mud's done a great job in the past of trying different systems and taking a vote after trying it out. No reason we can't try that here too :) Try Baha Loot System v1 for a few runs, get some feedback and adjust for Baha Loot System v2, rinse and repeat until satisfied!

It's not just about the points, the need to split the run over multiple days also creates issues and ambiguity if people can't make both trips. Low hanging fruit to point out: if you only need 50 points to bid on vault gear, then you can save ~half your time by only going on vault trips. You may have less points in the dice roll, but you save half of your time (rl time has greater default value than 50 points), so you're overall bang per point is greater if you only do vault trips. Then consider for work/family/etc. obligations maybe you can typically only make the tower trip, then your same 50 points are bidding against (mostly) lower quality gear.

And of course, loot time typically sucks for leaders. If we don't have a formal system in place, there's going to be more stress on the leader having to spend time going into low level detail on why XYZ loot related decision was made.

Let's make it easy for people to know what to expect before the join the group and minimize the headache for the leader :)


The "What Lili chooses to remember and how she feels at the end of a long zone" seems to be working for alot of people!
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
koxa
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Re: Call to formalize point distribution for Bahamut

Postby koxa » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:23 am

I hate points system but everyone else seems to love it. I cant do Bahamut more then once in a blue moo really so it doesnt effect me personally. But its obviously frustrating to join a points group not knowing what each part is worth and not knowing if you Will be allowed to bid or not. The points and bid rules needs to be set in stone before The next trip goes down.
Inama
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Re: Call to formalize point distribution for Bahamut

Postby Inama » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:11 am

I suggest:
25 points for clearing towers
25 points for tower bosses
25 points for patrols and first floor of the castle
25 points for 2nd floor of the castle through to Bahamut
I like keeping it to 25s, makes it easy to calculate. Even with this there will be some ambiguity when people join say after one tower boss dies but helps with the other 3. So that's 25 I guess, but not entirely fair to everyone else. There isn't a perfect way unless we get really anal.
Lilithelle
Dalar
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Re: Call to formalize point distribution for Bahamut

Postby Dalar » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:41 am

If someone joins late to a section I would say round it. If they did more than half the section then just give them the points.

Clearing Towers is 48 adult dragons and 8x 2x dragon patrols, Bahamut gate guards, and at least 4x young dragons. If someone comes in after say NW and NE tower sections are cleared then it's not a big deal to give them points (especially if we haven't killed patrols yet).
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'

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