New Defensive Skills Feedback

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Shevarash
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New Defensive Skills Feedback

Postby Shevarash » Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:54 am

All feedback and questions on the new defensive skills welcome here!
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:06 am

8)

So unspelled tanks can tank much better now- does that effect pets or is it just for pc's and mobs?
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:22 am

It affects anything that previously had defensive skills.
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Postby kanenan » Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:40 am

so riposte also adds to the degen of mob defense?
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Postby rylan » Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:51 am

I know its preliminary, but here are a couple things I observed:

Practicing defensive skills such as dodge, shieldblock etc will be much more difficult to do, since the skills are only checked when a mob makes its attack roll. So players cannot fight packs of low level mobs to notch defensive skills. Was defensive skill notch rate inceased a lot to compensate for the new lack of practiceability?

I was wondering the reasoning behind not giving clerics the new 'defense' master skill. We were given a higher dodge cap than other casters and somewhat better offensive melee skills to try to reflect that clerics are supposed to be able to hold their own in hand combat. But it seems that w/o the defense master skill my dodge skill got nerfed since it doesn't fire much against mobs that hit me. I kinda figured we would get the skill with a 50 cap or something, like how our dodge is.

Mobs can still dodge etc while blinded... that supposed to happen?
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misses

Postby Dlur » Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:18 am

First thing I'm noticing is that for a level 30 paladin, fighting level 30 warrior mobs, where I used to get hit at least 4 or 5 times a fight and used to dodge, parry, and riposte on quite a lot, the mobs never hit me anymore and none of my defensive skills fire. I'm sure this is mostly due to skills being checked only after a hit goes through the armor (forgot to mention I have -100ac without spells). In 2 fights with these mobs (tanking two at a time) I don't see a single instance of one of my defensive skills going off, except for one partially deflected blow(which is cool btw). Everything is either hit or miss, now, no defensive skills firing at all for me now.

Also mobs seem to be landing dodges way more often then before.

Also I don't see in this round why I went from standing to sitting during a round without getting bashed:

< 566h/566H 153p/153P 110v/110V T: Dranthar TC: excellent E: zombie EC: small wounds P: std >
A large zombie misses you with its beat.
A large zombie misses you with its beat.
You parry a large zombie's lunge at you.
You slash a large zombie.

< 566h/566H 153p/153P 110v/110V T: Dranthar TC: excellent E: zombie EC: small wounds P: sit >
You partially deflect a large zombie's lunge at you.
Your flesh loses its stony texture.
gsay Pass the hookah, I'm not Stoned anymore.
A large zombie barely beats you.
A large zombie misses you with its beat.
You score a CRITICAL HIT!
A large zombie dodges your futile attack.

Another instance of me going from standing to sitting with no message:

< 565h/566H 153p/153P 69v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: guardian EC: few wounds P: std >
Your flesh loses its stony texture.
gsay Stone Out!
A guardian of the ebony knights barely hits you.
A guardian of the ebony knights misses you with his hit.
You parry a guardian of the ebony knights's lunge at you.
You miss a guardian of the ebony knights with your slash.

< 564h/566H 153p/153P 69v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: guardian EC: few wounds P: sit >
A guardian of the ebony knights hits you.
You barely slash a guardian of the ebony knights.

< 537h/566H 153p/153P 70v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: guardian EC: few wounds P: sit >
Another instance of falling down in combat with no message:

< 542h/566H 153p/153P 110v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: guardian EC: few wounds P: std >
A guardian of the ebony knights misses you with his hit.
You have learned something new about defense!
You deflect a guardian of the ebony knights's blow, and strike back at a guardian of the ebony knights!
You slash a guardian of the ebony knights hard.
You slash a guardian of the ebony knights hard.
You miss a guardian of the ebony knights with your slash.

< 542h/566H 153p/153P 110v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: guardian EC: few wounds P: sit >
You dodge a guardian of the ebony knights's vicious attack.
A guardian of the ebony knights misses you with his hit.
A guardian of the ebony knights dodges your futile attack.

< 543h/566H 153p/153P 110v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: guardian EC: few wounds P: sit >
Last edited by Dlur on Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Hyldryn » Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:32 am

I believe this skill should be agility based. There's enough strength based skills as is. That is unless the aim is to put more distance between small vs larger tanks.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:38 am

Do mobs seem to dodge a tad much?
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Postby Hyldryn » Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:45 am

How's parry/dodge/shieldblock prac gonna work? We gonna need to wear shitty ac for practice now?
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Postby Hyldryn » Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:04 am

Critical hits are no longer guaranteed hits atm. Defensive skills like dodge and stuff have a chance to block them.
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Postby Eilorn » Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:09 am

I don't recall ever seeing it before, but, a mob just riposted off my riposte.

Eilorn.
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Postby Eilorn » Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:20 am

Also, seems like the bash message can get swallowed:

< 184h/422H 121v/121V >
< T: Tibor TC: nasty wounds E: platform EC: few wounds > You are already standing.

< 185h/422H 121v/121V >
< T: Tibor TC: nasty wounds E: platform EC: few wounds >
You slash a guard of the platform.
A guard of the platform parries your futile lunge at him.
A guard of the platform misses you with his slash.
A guard of the platform misses you with his slash.
A guard of the platform clambers to his feet.

< 185h/422H 121v/121V >
< T: Tibor TC: nasty wounds E: platform EC: few wounds > bash
st
A guard of the platform deflects your blow, and strikes back at YOU!
You parry a guard of the platform's lunge at you.

< 185h/422H 121v/121V >
< T: Tibor TC: nasty wounds E: platform EC: few wounds >
You miss a guard of the platform with your slash.
You miss a guard of the platform with your slash.
A guard of the platform misses you with his slash.
A guard of the platform misses you with his slash.

< 186h/422H 121v/121V >
< T: Tibor TC: nasty wounds E: platform EC: few wounds >
A guard of the platform partially deflects your lunge at him.
You barely slash a guard of the platform.
A guard of the platform misses you with his slash.

< 186h/422H 121v/121V >
< T: Tibor TC: nasty wounds E: platform EC: few wounds > You are already standing.

< 187h/422H 121v/121V >
< T: Tibor TC: nasty wounds E: platform EC: few wounds >
You slash a guard of the platform.
You slash a guard of the platform.
A guard of the platform misses you with his slash.
A guard of the platform misses you with his slash.
A guard of the platform clambers to his feet.

Eilorn
Now, we can do this the hard way, or... well, actually there's just the hard way.

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Postby Corth » Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:20 am

First, I would like to thank the staff for addressing the concerns of the players and taking the time to put together an obviously well thought out system. I can't really comment on how well it is working yet, because I haven't had a chance to play. In theory though, it looks like a nice system.

However, one thing that I noticed is that the way melee is upgraded is that a mob's defense will degrade based upon the number of attacks directed at it. I think that this is a good start, but the problem is that it does little unless you bring a lot of melee to a zone. I would like to see a small increase in melee damage in general so that the lone rogue or ranger in a group might pull his own weight. As it stands, I doubt that I would bring a ranger to a zone over, for instance, a druid, notwithstanding the downgrade to area spells.

Also, the downgrade to all area spells except invokers constitutes a big updrage to the invoker class. For better or worse, invokers are more useful in a group then they were yesterday.

Anyway, its a good start. I'm eagerly awaiting the mysterious next phase.

Corth
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Postby Eilorn » Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:29 am

After further experience, it looks like a bash is being treated as an ordinary hit, and defensive skills are being attempted against it: parry/riposte/dodge, when dodge should be the only appropriate skill used against it. Successful and unsuccessful bash messages are not being printed out after the defensive skill message:

< 249h/422H 121v/121V >
< T: Tibor TC: few wounds E: platform EC: pretty hurt >
You complete your spell...
A guard of the platform seems to be blinded!

< 249h/422H 121v/121V >
< T: Tibor TC: few wounds E: platform EC: pretty hurt > bash
st
A guard of the platform dodges your futile attack.

< 250h/422H 121v/121V >
< T: Tibor TC: few wounds E: platform EC: pretty hurt >
You slash a guard of the platform very hard.
You slash a guard of the platform hard.
A guard of the platform misses you with his slash.
A guard of the platform misses you with his slash.

< 250h/422H 121v/121V >
< T: Tibor TC: few wounds E: platform EC: pretty hurt >
A guard of the platform parries your futile lunge at him.
A guard of the platform misses you with his slash.

< 250h/422H 121v/121V >
< T: Tibor TC: few wounds E: platform EC: pretty hurt > You are already standing.

< 251h/422H 121v/121V >
< T: Tibor TC: few wounds E: platform EC: pretty hurt >
You miss a guard of the platform with your slash.
A guard of the platform deflects your blow, and strikes back at YOU!
A guard of the platform misses you with his slash.
A guard of the platform misses you with his slash.
A guard of the platform misses you with his slash.
A guard of the platform clambers to his feet.



Eilorn.
Last edited by Eilorn on Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Now, we can do this the hard way, or... well, actually there's just the hard way.

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Defensive skills don't seem to be firing hardly at all now.

Postby Dlur » Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:30 am

Excerpt from skeletons fight. Started fight as level 30 paladin with good skills(been tanking solo since level 1) and -100 AC. At first I rarely ever got hit and only had 1 riposte hit out of all those rounds. I removed my armor which dropped me to -39 AC and instead of defensive skills making up for the lack of AC I just got hit, and for more damage per hit, without a single defensive skill going off, where normally before the changes I'd parry/dodge/or riposte nearly every single hit from the mob.


< 566h/566H 153p/153P 66v/110V T: Dranthar TC: excellent E: skeleton EC: excellent P: std >
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

< 566h/566H 153p/153P 66v/110V T: Dranthar TC: excellent E: skeleton EC: excellent P: std >
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
You slash a skeleton hard.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

< 566h/566H 153p/153P 67v/110V T: Dranthar TC: excellent E: skeleton EC: few scratches P: std >
A magnificent heavy warhorse growls at a skeleton.

< 566h/566H 153p/153P 68v/110V T: Dranthar TC: excellent E: skeleton EC: few scratches P: std >
Corpse of a skeleton melts into the ground, leaving no trace of its passing.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
You slash a skeleton very hard.
You slash a skeleton very hard.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
You deflect a skeleton's blow, and strike back at a skeleton!
You slash a skeleton very hard.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

< 566h/566H 153p/153P 68v/110V T: Dranthar TC: excellent E: skeleton EC: few wounds P: std >
Corpse of a skeleton melts into the ground, leaving no trace of its passing.

< 566h/566H 153p/153P 68v/110V T: Dranthar TC: excellent E: skeleton EC: few wounds P: std >
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
You slash a skeleton extremely hard.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

< 566h/566H 153p/153P 69v/110V T: Dranthar TC: excellent E: skeleton EC: few wounds P: std >
Your flesh loses its stony texture.
gsay Stone Out!
You are thirsty.

< 566h/566H 153p/153P 71v/110V T: Dranthar TC: excellent E: skeleton EC: few wounds P: std >
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
You slash a skeleton extremely hard.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

< 566h/566H 153p/153P 71v/110V T: Dranthar TC: excellent E: skeleton EC: few wounds P: std > But you are a member of no group?!

< 566h/566H 153p/153P 71v/110V T: Dranthar TC: excellent E: skeleton EC: few wounds P: std >
A magnificent heavy warhorse growls at a skeleton.

< 566h/566H 153p/153P 71v/110V T: Dranthar TC: excellent E: skeleton EC: few wounds P: std >
Corpse of a skeleton melts into the ground, leaving no trace of its passing.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
You slash a skeleton extremely hard.
You land a mighty slash on a skeleton!
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

< 566h/566H 153p/153P 72v/110V T: Dranthar TC: excellent E: skeleton EC: nasty wounds P: std >
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
You land a mighty slash on a skeleton!
You partially deflect a skeleton's lunge at you.
A skeleton barely beats you.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

< 554h/566H 153p/153P 72v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: skeleton EC: pretty hurt P: std >
A magnificent heavy warhorse growls at a skeleton.

< 554h/566H 153p/153P 73v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: skeleton EC: pretty hurt P: std >
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton is nearly slain by the force of your slash!
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

< 554h/566H 153p/153P 73v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: skeleton EC: awful P: std > att

Character attributes for Dranthar

Level: 30 Race: Human Class: Paladin
Age: 17 yrs / 9 mths Height: 71 inches Weight: 209 lbs
STR: 100 AGI: 89 DEX: 87 CON: ***
POW: 58 INT: 59 WIS: 56 CHA: 54
Armor Class: -100 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 21 Damroll: 29
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[-3] SPE[-6]
Wimpy: 50
Load carried: Very Light

< 554h/566H 153p/153P 73v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: skeleton EC: awful P: std > rem armor
You stop using a suit of glossy enameled serpent armor.

< 554h/566H 153p/153P 73v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: skeleton EC: awful P: std > att

Character attributes for Dranthar

Level: 30 Race: Human Class: Paladin
Age: 17 yrs / 9 mths Height: 71 inches Weight: 209 lbs
STR: 100 AGI: 89 DEX: 87 CON: ***
POW: 58 INT: 59 WIS: 56 CHA: 54
Armor Class: -39 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 17 Damroll: 29
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[-3] SPE[-6]
Wimpy: 50
Load carried: Light

< 554h/566H 153p/153P 73v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: skeleton EC: awful P: std >
You parry a skeleton's lunge at you.
A skeleton is nearly slain by the force of your slash!
Your a holy avenger enshrouded in light SINGS and smites your foes with holy wrath!
A skeleton shivers, and suffers from its evilness!
A skeleton shivers, and suffers from its evilness!
A skeleton shivers, and suffers from its evilness!
A skeleton shivers, and suffers from its evilness!
A skeleton slumps to the ground.
A skeleton is dissolved by your goodness.
A skeleton is dead! R.I.P.
A skeleton slumps to the ground.
You receive your share of experience.
gget coins corpse
save
Your blood freezes as you hear the rattling death cry of a skeleton.
The bones of the skeleton split apart and reform into two new skeletons.
A skeleton shivers, and suffers from its evilness!
A skeleton shivers, and suffers from its evilness!
A skeleton shivers, and suffers from its evilness!
A skeleton shivers, and suffers from its evilness!
A skeleton shivers, and suffers from its evilness!
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton barely beats you.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

< 538h/566H 153p/153P 73v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: skeleton EC: few scratches P: std > A skeleton misses you with its beat.
The corpse of a skeleton does not contain the coins.

< 538h/566H 153p/153P 73v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: skeleton EC: few scratches P: std > Saving...

< 538h/566H 153p/153P 74v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: skeleton EC: few scratches P: std >
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

< 538h/566H 153p/153P 74v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few scratches E: skeleton EC: few scratches P: std > att
You parry a skeleton's lunge at you.
You partially deflect a skeleton's lunge at you.
A skeleton barely beats you.
You slash a skeleton very hard.
You slash a skeleton very hard.
A skeleton beats you.
A skeleton beats you.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

Character attributes for Dranthar

Level: 30 Race: Human Class: Paladin
Age: 17 yrs / 9 mths Height: 71 inches Weight: 209 lbs
STR: 100 AGI: 89 DEX: 87 CON: ***
POW: 58 INT: 59 WIS: 56 CHA: 54
Armor Class: -39 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 17 Damroll: 29
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[-3] SPE[-6]
Wimpy: 50
Load carried: Light

< 491h/566H 153p/153P 74v/110V T: Dranthar TC: small wounds E: skeleton EC: few wounds P: std >
A magnificent heavy warhorse growls at a skeleton.

< 492h/566H 153p/153P 74v/110V T: Dranthar TC: small wounds E: skeleton EC: few wounds P: std >
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
You slash a skeleton very hard.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton barely beats you.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton beats you.
A skeleton beats you.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton beats you hard.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

< 421h/566H 153p/153P 75v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few wounds E: skeleton EC: few wounds P: std >
Corpse of a skeleton melts into the ground, leaving no trace of its passing.

< 421h/566H 153p/153P 75v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few wounds E: skeleton EC: few wounds P: std >
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
You slash a skeleton very hard.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

< 421h/566H 153p/153P 75v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few wounds E: skeleton EC: few wounds P: std >
A magnificent heavy warhorse growls at a skeleton.

< 421h/566H 153p/153P 76v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few wounds E: skeleton EC: few wounds P: std >
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
You slash a skeleton extremely hard.
You slash a skeleton extremely hard.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

< 421h/566H 153p/153P 76v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few wounds E: skeleton EC: nasty wounds P: std > flee
stand
As you turn to flee, a skeleton trips you!

< 422h/566H 153p/153P 76v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few wounds E: skeleton EC: nasty wounds P: rcl > flee
stand
You clamber to your feet.

< 422h/566H 153p/153P 76v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few wounds E: skeleton EC: nasty wounds P: std > As you turn to flee, a skeleton trips you!

< 422h/566H 153p/153P 76v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few wounds E: skeleton EC: nasty wounds P: rcl >
A skeleton beats you hard.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
You miss a skeleton with your slash.
You dodge a skeleton's vicious attack.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton beats you hard.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.
A skeleton misses you with its beat.

< 373h/566H 153p/153P 76v/110V T: Dranthar TC: few wounds E: skeleton EC: nasty wounds P: rcl > You clamber to your feet.
Ghimok|Dlur|Emeslan|Ili|Zinse|Teniv

*~~~~~~~~~~*

"Censorship is telling a man he can't eat a steak just because a baby can't chew it." - Mark Twain
Imacilex
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Postby Imacilex » Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:47 am

Just noticed Mobs dodge'n my Project Forces a few times a quick fight. Wondering if this is intentional with the new system?

at the beginning of the fight resultin in no dmg, thats why i noticed at all...

< 150h/186H 306p/306P 52v/90V >
< > s
The Forest of Mir
Exits: -N -E -S -W
A satyr frolics about here, playing a gloomy tune.
A bombardier beetle creeps along the undergrowth.

< 151h/186H 306p/306P 51v/90V >
< > projectforce satyr
You project a strong force front that hits A satyr dead on.
A satyr dodges your futile attack.

< 151h/186H 285p/306P 52v/90V >
< >
A satyr misses you with his strike.
A satyr misses you with his strike.

< 151h/186H 285p/306P 52v/90V >
< T: Imacilex TC: small wounds E: satyr EC: excellent >
projectforce satyr
You miss A satyr with your whip.
A satyr misses you with his strike.


Thanks.
<< Im >>
Imacilex
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Postby Imacilex » Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:50 am

Just noticed it with mind blast too, which seems kinda silly

< > Alas, you cannot go that way. . . .
e

< 186h/186H 167p/306P 87v/90V >
< > e
Alas, you cannot go that way. . . .

< 186h/186H 167p/306P 87v/90V >
< > Alas, you cannot go that way. . . .

< 186h/186H 167p/306P 87v/90V >
< > mind spirit
You can sense the growing pain in a moaning spirit's mind.
A moaning spirit dodges your futile attack.

< 186h/186H 147p/306P 88v/90V >
< >
A moaning spirit misses you with his drain.

< 186h/186H 148p/306P 89v/90V >
< T: Imacilex TC: excellent E: moaning EC: excellent > mind spirit
You can sense the growing pain in a moaning spirit's mind.
<< Im >>
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:57 am

Ashiwi wrote:Do mobs seem to dodge a tad much?


Okay, was just watching this on astral, but it seemed to be the demons that dodged at a phenomenal rate, while to hit other mobs fairly steadily. Demons should be difficult to hit with melee, though.

Things just seem too easy so far, however. Astral was a walk in the park with eight people.
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Postby torkur » Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:08 am

Corth, one thing I did just notice about invokers though is that we are now even more owned if we try to tank anything. I just lasted 3 rounds versus the purple dragon on EM with stone, displace, 800+ hp, and -30 ac, yet our damage stayed virtually the same from what I've seen so far and I think that is how it should be for the class personally.


Conversely, my lvl 47 warrior was tanking MUCH better versus a dockie earlier.....even taking 18 hp rounds or so when he got hit instead of the old normal 40 hp per attack.


Personally, I like the changes so far.
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Postby Zen » Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:33 am

Doing reavers on ship, I've noticed a huge change in mob dodge and riposte. They pummeld my group, leaving several dead just by riposting, while the tank was doing fine. (Aside from the fact that he couldn't see the mob standing, but that's an obvious one.)

Also, I seem to be missing more, especially with a low number of hitters in the group. (30% more, to quantify it) Upping my hitroll helped that quite a bit, I don't know if that was intentional or not.

-Zenriel
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impressive... most impressive...

Postby Oosh » Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:49 am

fyi - I posted this originally in the wrong section. *rofl* so reposting it where it belongs I guess...

I must say, I'm very impressed with these changes, and very happy for a new challenge.
not only will it require Tanks to become more strategic, but it will force more and more people to stay AT the keys, not only in zones, but in exp groups as well...

Its going to be very interesting to keep exploring the changes that have been made and their capabilities. *grin*
Once I've tested and seen their results, on a skill based level I'll probably have more input on improvements, but right now, I'm very pleased and will continue testing their limits.

...Oosh -Hero- of Crimson Coalition...
a.k.a
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side effect?

Postby Tasan » Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:56 am

Your arrows are enshrouded in flames as they leap from the warbow!
You fire a black-shafted elven arrow at a white dragon. Crack! It impacts with he shield and is deflected!
You fire a black-shafted elven arrow at a white dragon. Crack! It impacts with he shield and is deflected!
You fire a black-shafted elven arrow at a white dragon. Crack! It impacts with he shield and is deflected!
Dala starts casting an offensive spell called 'full harm'.
< 596h/716H 129v/129V >
< T: Pheten TC: small wounds E: white EC: pretty hurt P: std > A white dragon looks pretty hurt.
he is surrounded by burning flames!
he's encased in a shimmering globe!
< 596h/716H 129v/129V >
< T: Pheten TC: small wounds E: white EC: pretty hurt P: std >


Think perhaps this is new bug, not quite sure though... it's not shielded.

Twinshadow
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Postby Ensis » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:38 am

Zen wrote:Doing reavers on ship, I've noticed a huge change in mob dodge and riposte. They pummeld my group, leaving several dead just by riposting, while the tank was doing fine. (Aside from the fact that he couldn't see the mob standing, but that's an obvious one.)

Also, I seem to be missing more, especially with a low number of hitters in the group. (30% more, to quantify it) Upping my hitroll helped that quite a bit, I don't know if that was intentional or not.

-Zenriel


Reavers have always hit like mack trucks. I've taken 450 in one shot from the buggars and they get 1-3 attacks a round unarmed. There might be an increase in their riposte activity, but they've always hit supah hard.
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Re: side effect?

Postby Sylvos » Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:15 pm

Tasan wrote:Your arrows are enshrouded in flames as they leap from the warbow!
You fire a black-shafted elven arrow at a white dragon. Crack! It impacts with he shield and is deflected!
You fire a black-shafted elven arrow at a white dragon. Crack! It impacts with he shield and is deflected!
You fire a black-shafted elven arrow at a white dragon. Crack! It impacts with he shield and is deflected!
Dala starts casting an offensive spell called 'full harm'.
< 596h/716H 129v/129V >
< T: Pheten TC: small wounds E: white EC: pretty hurt P: std > A white dragon looks pretty hurt.
he is surrounded by burning flames!
he's encased in a shimmering globe!
< 596h/716H 129v/129V >
< T: Pheten TC: small wounds E: white EC: pretty hurt P: std >


Think perhaps this is new bug, not quite sure though... it's not shielded.

Twinshadow


It's not a new bug. Some dragons have a kind of innate missile shield, due to their size and power. I've encountered it before; stronger arrows will go through but you need at least +2 or even +3 I think, can't recall.
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My current thoughts on all of this

Postby Dlur » Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:55 pm

1) Seems like a mostly well thought out change that will eventually(with tweaking and additions from the next phases) make melee classes more usefull, and perhaps more fun. Below are some of my likes and dislikes about the new system, and ways to possibly improve the situation at the end of my dislikes.

2) Mobs dodge attacks WAY more than they used to before. So this appears to be an offensive melee downgrade in many ways because now you are getting dodged on by the mobs even more. Might want to look into that. Although I've yet to see a mob that is not wielding parry or riposte any of my attacks, so perhaps this makes disarm slightly more interesting. Perhaps tweak mob defensive skills down a tad without moving players.

3) It will be an almost unbearable chore to practice or learn any of the defensive skills now. I've been learning "defense" at an acceptable rate, but I figure the skill improves for this are set up for the new changes. It seems to me though that dodge/parry/riposte/mounted will hardly ever notch now as they hardly ever go off now. Even when fighting mobs solo that con as Are you mad? at -100 AC I hardly ever see any of my defensive skills go off, it's almost always me either hitting or getting dodged by the mob, and the mob either missing or hitting me with very, very few defensive skills on my behalf in between. After removing some armor and dropping my AC down to various stages of poorness I found that I just get hit more, and my defensive skills don't go off any more often if I'm getting hit a lot. Will test more to see how this affects the high-end game, but from a mid-level standpoint this sorta sucks. Perhaps make it so that the skill check happens on any attack, so that skill practice can be accounted for even on a miss, but if it's a miss then that's a miss and not accounted for in the total amount of parries/dodges used in a round per mob to determine future effectiveness that round. Dunno I guess I just liked how it was before showing that I was dodging and parrying and blocking attacks with my mount very often, instead of the mob just missing or hitting me all the time.


4) Definately like the partial deflection of blows to lower damage. Great addition.

5) When fighting multiple mobs (2 so far, haven't tried more) of equal levels, about 5 higher than me I notice getting owned way more often than fighting 1 mob. I had thought part of the changes were to scale this so that if a warrior is fighting only a couple of mobs they would be able to tank better than if fighting like 5+ mobs. Doesn't really seem to scale all that well as two mobs take me down in HPs as much as if I fought 4 mobs individually all of the same level and class.
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Postby Sarell » Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:25 pm

Love it...

Not sure mobs should be blocking all my ripostes...

Love the idea of half damage blocking, definately gives us an edge over cleric tanks!

*hi5*
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Postby Waelos » Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:15 pm

Noticing extra attacks are blocked alot. . .like rips, the extra swings from scepter. . .I have to try windsong now. Perhaps the degrading isn't degrading, but rather upgrading?

Lost =)
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Postby Sylvos » Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:12 pm

Windsong extra attacks aren't being blocked any more frequently, but my extra bec attacks have been blocked 95% of the time thus far. *shrug*
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Postby Waelos » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:05 pm

yea thats really weird Sylvos. My testing shows that as well. . the extra with scepter hits very infrequently, but windsong extras all seem ok
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Postby Zen » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:57 pm

Having gotten out there to test the changes out a bit, my innitial reaction is possitive. However, in terms of flukes...

Dodge and riposte rate seem way to high. I riposted every attack for 3 rounds in a row against the tako demon on EM. Mobs are riposting nearly as much, even against multiple hitters. Dodge also seems to be out of wack as well, mobs are dodging as many as every other attack at times. I haven't tanked more than 5 mobs at once since this went in, but I suspec the same is true for pcs.

Lastly, the number of partial blocks, especially shield blocks seems high. I am not sure how much of an issue this is, because the balance of melee has shifted quite a bit, but as an L50 warrior with 99 shieldblock, I would hope that when I can use my shield, I do it well enough to stop the attack most of the time. As it is, I only stop about 1 in 10 attacks cold. I can understand a dragon getting a partial blow through even the most effective shieldblock, but not some wimpy warrior type etc.

Just some thoughts :P

-Lorgan
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Postby rylan » Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:31 pm

From what I've seen dodge rate of mobs seems to be much higher than it used to be, while dodge rate on PCs is much lower than it used to be, especially on PCs without the defense skill (cough clerics cough). ;)
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Postby thanuk » Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:27 pm

Shev you rock and the new system is awesome:)


Mobs are dodging alot more than usual. methinks its just that their dodge skill is too high... Limit for level 50 warrior pcs is 65 dodge so i would figure mobs should be the same, but they seem to all have 99 dodge skill(even mages). I was fighting zarrin from ET and he was dodging almost every round. Granted he is level 54 but still a mage mob.

Partial blocks are alot more common than full blocks it seems to me. I dunno if thats on purpose, but i seem to partial block alot more often then i totally block. Again i dunno if thats the way you intended it to be.

I tank ALOT better without spells, and i even survived missing a bash. It was awesome. I even went toe to toe with a warrior mob 2 levels higher than me and didnt get killed in 3 rounds. He definately had the advantage, but it took him alot longer to kick the snot out of me, which is great.

I seem to be missing alot more attacks now. I realize that was an effect this was going to bring, but with 28 hitroll, 99 offense and weapon skills, i would imagine i should be landing more than 50% of my attacks. This isnt including mob defenses mind you, just attacks that miss.

I'd just like to say that i think these changes are great. I dont think PC power really went up at all because of them, if anything PC power may have gone down. Great job, thanks for putting in the time and effort.
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Postby kanenan » Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:24 am

my attacks per round average has dropped significantly on much lower level mobs. where i used to get 3-5 attacks per round, i get two.

windsong proc is still ok, but that dualwield attacks per round has dropped big time. i was getting almost at lest 1-3 more attacks tahn a pally or warrior, with a 35/32. anyone else notice this? wae? sylvos?
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Postby Sylvos » Tue Feb 18, 2003 4:04 am

My attacks per round hasn't changed in the slightest, just the frequency of them landing. I haven't fought enough stuff for me to even guess at numbers though.

I'm guessing now that there's a new order for defensive stuff to get checked, a whole lot of stuff that we didn't know/see before will become apparent. Such as the apparently increased offhand dodge/parry percent or something.

*shrug*

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Postby Hyldryn » Tue Feb 18, 2003 4:09 am

I've noticed that ciritcal hits and procs can now be defended is that intentional?
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Postby torkur » Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:44 am

If you get a chance, please glance at the switch code, it seems to have been turned up considerably on low level mobs.

I was playing an alt tonight and the warrior mobs on BGR are switching nearly every round or two with seemingly no fails at level 20-30. I had a couple fights with nightfall warriors (lvl 25 or so) where I literally got switched to 14 times from my mephit and had to flee out/re-enter before I could kill it. The success rate seems a little high to me and wondering if it got bumped somehow. Thank you.
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Postby Zen » Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:24 pm

Couple things from a rogue perspective:

1) Has there been a change to rogue THACO? I was getting by with about 30 hitroll and hitting about 85-90% before the changes. That does not include mob dodges either, just hit/miss ratio. I had to put my hitroll up to 36 to get back to the same 85-90% bracket.

2) Mobs are dodging circles and backstabs. Is this in place of the normal check or in addition to it? There was already a check to see if the mobs avoided the punishment, if they can dodge that seems a little redundant.

Thanks for the changes tho, melee rocks now and it's fun to be a hitter and actually watch the mobs go down while the casters a mem'ing. :)

-Zenriel
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Melee

Postby rachaz » Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:01 pm

One thing I noticed about this new system is that as a level 50 warrior, I am missing mobs quite a bit with sufficient hitroll. With the new system, mobs defense will degrade from several hits but what about from the 2-3 I get as a warrior. I enjoyed being able to contribute a small amount of damage to the group. I do not like this new change but it seems I am the only one...

Rachaz
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Postby thanuk » Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:36 pm

nevemind:)
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

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You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Sarell » Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:39 pm

Dark shadowy tendrils flow from your etched shadow dagger burrowing into Captain Miplit's wounds.
Captain Miplit dodges your futile attack.
Captain Miplit dodges your futile attack.
You miss Captain Miplit with your pierce.
Captain Miplit dodges your futile attack.
Turxx parries Captain Miplit's lunge at him.
Turxx deflects Captain Miplit's blow, and strikes back at Captain Miplit!
Captain Miplit clambers to his feet.
Turxx barely slashes Captain Miplit.


Mobs, even ones on the ground, seem to be dodging WAY too much. Including dodging my proc on crit. Not parrying etc either...just dodging...

Hrmmm seems they are dodging all my circles aswell as crits...
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:48 pm

We hit less, they hit less, yet we seem to be chewing through them even faster... How does that work?
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Postby Jegzed » Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:00 pm

My feedback as a troll warrior..

I tank quite a fair bit better, but I seem to do quite alot less damage when doing solo exp.

I think the changes so far look really good...
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
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Postby rylan » Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:31 pm

I don't really see that ash... mobs look like they're living longer.

Anyway, mob defensive skills (at least dodge) are working when they shouldn't... such as when the mob is bashed or on the ground etc. Being bashed used to disable your defensive skills (which made plenty of sense), it doesn't now. Blinding mobs doesn't seem to effect their defense any either.
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Postby Hyldryn » Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:46 pm

Didnt disable ry. It just made it incredibly less likely.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:58 pm

Hey Shev,

About defensive skills degrading over the round. It's killing me, quite literally:) I dunno what your intent was, but from your other posts it seems like the idea was to give melee a boost by making the mobs defensive skills degrade over the round. I gotta tell you that i think the exact opposite has happened.

If you look at your standard group, you have a couple tanks, maybe even a ranger and a rogue. So ill even give the melee benefit, and say a group has 5 meleers in it, which is a rare thing. So thats 5 PC's attacking a mob. Even in the best conditions, when they are all targetting the same round, mob defensive skills don't really degrade fast enough to gain any benefit from this, because we simply don't get off enough attacks to degrade their skills to the point where hits are landing. Considering the amount of attacks we all miss now, that don't even effect skill degrading because the skills were never checked, we hardly even put a dent in mob defensive skills.

In sharp contrast you have multiple mob fights, where often there are 7 or more mobs attacking. Mobs dont miss nearly as often as PC's do, even pure mage class mobs land most of their hits(whereas our PC mages dont have a prayer in hell of actually landing a melee attack). This causes the PC warrior skills to degrade rather quickly, and i find myself taking multiple attacks at the end of rounds when im tanking more than 4 mobs at the same time.

I know that you said this should cause tanks to have to share the workload more, but in your post under announcements you said that the changes should make us much better at tanking small amounts of mobs, and slightly better at tanking a large amount of mobs. While i cant argue that i am better at tanking one or two mobs, i gotta say that my ability to tank a large amount of mobs has been lowered a great deal. Even in ET, where the multiple mob fights are relatively easy compared to what you might face in scorps, jot, muspel, clouds, etc, I find myself getting laid into for a great deal of damage very quickly. I rip through spells and heals, and the clerics/chanters are often running to mem out before we are even halfway through the fight. I think the reason for this is the change in defensive skill degrading to by round instead of by attacker.

I have to admit that it makes more sense for skills to degrade across the whole round rather than against each attacker individually. But I think some tweaking needs to be done to either the rate of skills being degraded, or to the attacking ability of mage classed mobs. Whereas the mobs tanking suffer no loss from tanking a mage PC, because he is never gonna land an attack, PC tanks suffer a great disadvantage from tanking mage classed mobs. Basically mob casters still hit like they are warriors, and they degrade our defensive skills alot, eating up all our blocks and dodges early in the round. I think if they are gonna have spells as good or better(sandstorm) than are given to PC's, they should suffer the same penalties that our PC mages do, who are basically incapable of landing a melee attack.

To sum it all up, im asking you to look into either slowing the degradation of PC defensive skills, or severely lowering the hitroll/damroll of mobs that are casters. The fact that they land attacks so often is making our defensive skills degrade too quickly, and we suffer a great deal of damage from attacks from warrior class mobs later in the round, after our defensive skills had been exhausted by mage mob attacks. Or even when the opposite is true, when a mage mob lands an attack on me it hits just as hard as warrior classed mobs. If they are mages, they shouldn't be anywhere near as proficient as warriors in melee combat, and should not deal even close to as much damage when their attacks land. But from my standpoint it seems like the mages are often just as good with melee as their warrior counterparts, and it is quite literally killing me.:)

p.s.
You still rule shev.
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Postby rylan » Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:11 pm

I think part of the problem (as Thanuk mentioned) is that PC melee is actually doing -less- damage now than it was before, because mobs are evading even more successful attacks and PCs are missing a lot more than before.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:22 pm

But that's part of what I was trying to point out Rylan. They do less to us, we do less to them, we still have all the buffers (even somewhat downgraded) and heal spells, and even if each individual fight is taking a bit longer, the zones are going faster because they're just easier. I don't know if mobs need to do more damage all around, or if this just happens against the tanks... although one of our casters tanked for quite a few rounds against a mob that should have torn through him without blinking. Maybe I'm just a little deluded. Am I the only one who seems to think that fights just seem too easy all of a sudden?
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Postby thanuk » Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:52 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Maybe I'm just a little deluded. Am I the only one who seems to think that fights just seem too easy all of a sudden?


I gotta say its just the opposite...i been finding fights to be a great deal harder than they were pre-changes. I have done ET twice in the passed two days, and i must admit i have actually come close to DYING in this zone. In case you weren't aware, pre-changes ET was so incredibly easy that i often tanked the entirety of the zone wielding a 2hand weapon and headbutting, basically because there was absolutely 0 chance of death.

While this zone getting harder is a positive side effect of the changes, im definately wary of attempting a zone like muspel or scorps, because if 5 level 51 worried ET guards can bring me to pretty hurt, god knows what 3 squads of manscorpions are gonna do to me. Where have you been fighting that you think its actually easier? And if it is easier, are you bringing more people in your groups than normal? The only type of fights i could really see as having become easier is when you are facing only 1 or two mobs. Any multiple mob fight has become a great deal harder to manage as a tank, and subsequently as a cleric and enchanter as well.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

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Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

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Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Treladian » Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:02 pm

I'm wondering if ranged attacks do anything to mob defensives. I've wound up using my bow a lot more often just because I don't feel like seeing an 85% hitrate from misses alone from a hitroll that would have given me roughly 92-94% a week ago. And since rangers are being nudged towards ranged, having our primary tool be counterproductive to other hitters is going to make for some screwy group mechanics.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:33 pm

Trel, I've been on the exact same wavelength. Been using archery much more now, because I simply have a higher chance of hitting. Seeing a hasted round go by in which I double proc and hit 4 times is disheartening if anything.

Led Manscorps last night, not sure if anyone had done so since the changes went in(I'd imagine evils did). And though there were some tactical errors made during the fight, rampy got his ass handed to him. Needless to say I believe we took out 2 archers before we were all deaded.

I know that Shev saw what happened and said he was gonna look into it, so maybe we can just give it a little more time to get worked into place :)

Twinshadow
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