Why can't human liches group with evilraces

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Dalar
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Why can't human liches group with evilraces

Postby Dalar » Tue Mar 04, 2003 8:31 am

Why not? Liches are pretty damn evil yet trolls won't group with ones that were previously human? i don't get it
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Nilan » Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:08 am

Cause we have our own liches, we dont need inferior human ones :)

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Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:12 am

Dartan you should ask for a convert.
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Postby Burpie » Tue Mar 04, 2003 1:48 pm

I think lichdom, since you forfeit gate/relo, should offer the ability to group either good/evil. I totally agree w/evil grouping. Evils need a larger base, and this is a great avenue.
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Postby Colje » Tue Mar 04, 2003 3:13 pm

Burpie wrote:I think lichdom, since you forfeit gate/relo, should offer the ability to group either good/evil. I totally agree w/evil grouping. Evils need a larger base, and this is a great avenue.


Totaly agree
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Mar 04, 2003 3:17 pm

Burpie wrote:I think lichdom, since you forfeit gate/relo, should offer the ability to group either good/evil. I totally agree w/evil grouping. Evils need a larger base, and this is a great avenue.


I've said it before, I felt lich's should be able to group with whoever they want since they are undead.

I don't see a big need for goodie lich's in the evil pbase tho. Tod's always around and always wllling to join a zone group. He's extremely good at being lich. If Tod's not there, someone else is always around. Dezzex, Sszan, me. I never even have to play mine bc there is always someone around. :wink:

I do on the other hand see a need for lich's to help out in the goodie world. Tried to lead a specific zone 4 nights in a row before I could bc no lichs were around or being tempermental. :roll:

What evils need is more clerics. Especially ones who don't suffer from the I got ress i'm gonna retire from active playing now disease. Last night at one point there was 1 cleric on for evils. Me. a 21st un-eq'd 4th alt. I did a who goodie cleric and there was around 13. I don't want to hear about how bad evil clerics have it. I wasn't handed any of my uber spell quests. I quested mine. Evils are so desperate for clerics, any half-wit will get pleveled up and handed ress. :shock: :roll:

-LL
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Postby Sargax » Tue Mar 04, 2003 3:59 pm

Llaaldara wrote:
Evils are so desperate for clerics, any half-wit will get pleveled up and handed ress. :shock: :roll:

-LL


maybe you're just logging on at the wrong times. I logged on Sunday afternoon and saw like 5 evil ressers on. Yesterday evening, there were 3 evil ressers. There's also several up and coming evil clerics running around as well, I know a couple of people who have high level ress unquested cleric alts. Evils are doing much better than they were several months ago in the clerical area.
And who would want a "half-wit" cleric in their group? *shudder*

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Postby Zellin » Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:09 pm

Zellin is back now! Count one more amongst your ranks!
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Postby Ilshadrial » Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:46 pm

Burpie wrote:I think lichdom, since you forfeit gate/relo, should offer the ability to group either good/evil. I totally agree w/evil grouping. Evils need a larger base, and this is a great avenue.


You may give up relo/gate but you gain powerful offensive magicks!

If you wanted to group with evil race, you should have made an evil race necro...

Otherwise, the same argument holds true for the anti-paladin...

Well maybe not, since all the grouping restrictions based on alin went away...
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Mar 04, 2003 10:44 pm

Evil's don't need goodie liches. Evil's need a pbase. They have enough liches to ground, and don't need us 'poser' liches 'fronting' on their 'turf' as it were. Yo.
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Postby Mitharx » Tue Mar 04, 2003 11:48 pm

I'm going to post the reply I get from everyone on any suggestions I've ever made about a lich, regardless of how they would affect the class or how easily things could be balanced out: It will make Lichs too powerful.
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:24 am


And who would want a "half-wit" cleric in their group? *shudder*

Ellana


As any true evil knows, you don't always have a choice in such matters. :roll:

Btw, an evilrace resser sitting afk and not responding to any tells, does not count as having a resser on. :shock:

As an invoker i'm not really a great taxi, but I do conceed that a lot of times evils have no form of taxi on and are in need. It's those early weekend mornings, and previously weeday mornings for me, when I would log on for the soul purpose of providing taxi service to evils. Yes I know most the time these are just alts, but I still know they need my help. I never leave my char idle if evils are in such circumstances. I personally wouldn't log my char on in such a case and then go afk knowing full well the amount of spam I'd be getting from people requesting my services, unless I liked doing that in the first place. (Did I mention how much I detest being a taxi? If i'm so concerned with myself, as some like to think, why do I do stuff like this in the first place?)

My point: Just because you see them, doesn't mean they're there.

Sesexe tells you, 'you there?'
<player> tells you, 'AFK not here atm (trig)'
-30 mins later-
Sesexe tells you, 'hello?
-2hours later-
Sesexe tells you, 'back yet?'

:roll:

-LL
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Postby Bipple » Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:53 am

Logically if you allow good liches to group with evils, why would you not allow evil liches to group with good races? Bones are bones, what's the difference between a walking Drow Elf skeleton and a Human skeleton? A few pounds? Doubt you could tell the difference without the skin and ears.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Mar 05, 2003 2:14 am

Silly Rabbit! gate/relocate aren't even necro spells... liches don't suffer this penalty as a result of lichdom! invalid argument!
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Postby Sarell » Wed Mar 05, 2003 2:20 am

I think it would be cool to allow evil align humans only (including liches) to group withevil chars. Would broaden the human chars a bit, provide some numbers for evil groups, and maybe stem some of the stupid bitterness between 'goodies and evils' players.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Mar 05, 2003 10:00 am

imho we should just bring back the lich race. to correct the snakes we should have a Lich-Yuan-Ti or something. Basically it makes no sense to have a troll not group with me b/c i WAS human.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Yayaril » Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:43 pm

8)

I guess it wouldn't make any sense for a troll to not be able to group with you because you're currently human. I don't think it's too far out there for evil humans to have trolls, orcs, ogres, and other dumb evil raced creatures as their minions.

I don't know what the impact on the game would be if this were true, though. It'd be an interesting experiment.
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Postby Birile » Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:22 pm

If you allowed evil-aligned humans to group with evilrace characters then it seems to me a rule involving only like-aligned characters to group with each other on the good side (don't think there are any neut/good-aligned evilrace characters out there) should come into being. Whether that's a good or bad idea isn't for me to say, I'm neutral.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:54 pm

It's not "unrealistic" (in the setting of the fantasy stories involving the Forgotten Realms) for evil humans to group with trolls, orcs and the like. It's even been known for elves to do the same (such as Kymil Nemesin), in a very loose usage of the idea of "grouping." So technically we should all be able to group with each other if you want to keep bringing up reasons for any one group being able to group with another. Or we could just assume that goodies and evils can't group together for balance reasons and keep it that way. One or two necromancers on the goodie side aren't going to make that much of a difference for the evil pbase, certainly not enough for them to rehash the grouping code one more time.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:26 pm

Ashiwi wrote:It's not "unrealistic" (in the setting of the fantasy stories involving the Forgotten Realms) for evil humans to group with trolls, orcs and the like. It's even been known for elves to do the same (such as Kymil Nemesin), in a very loose usage of the idea of "grouping." So technically we should all be able to group with each other if you want to keep bringing up reasons for any one group being able to group with another. Or we could just assume that goodies and evils can't group together for balance reasons and keep it that way. One or two necromancers on the goodie side aren't going to make that much of a difference for the evil pbase, certainly not enough for them to rehash the grouping code one more time.


how hard could it be to rehash the grouping code? it sounds flexible b/c when they added orcs they were already set.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ensis » Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:35 pm

This problem isn't ever really gonna be fixed.. evils want more pbase but don't want goodies.. the Pbase isn't getting any bigger.. + or - a couple here and there the who list is sticking around 100 peeps.. when you see new names I'd bet theyre just alts.

Since the pbase isn't getting any bigger mebbe they should rethink having two separate sides, when one has 80 and the other has 20 consistently if not always.
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Postby Salen » Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:45 pm

Sargax wrote:And who would want a "half-wit" cleric in their group? *shudder*

Ellana


Hey I get into groups all the time.


Uhmm Nevermind.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Mar 05, 2003 6:09 pm

Birile wrote:If you allowed evil-aligned humans to group with evilrace characters then it seems to me a rule involving only like-aligned characters to group with each other on the good side (don't think there are any neut/good-aligned evilrace characters out there) should come into being. Whether that's a good or bad idea isn't for me to say, I'm neutral.


They tried that on toril, it didnt work out very well. Most people went neutral or good so they could group with rangers and paladins, leaving us die hard evil aligned good race people out in the cold, cuz we couldn't get into most groups. Alot of us ended up going outcast, which works out decently if your a caster type, but the evilrace melee are pretty much superior in every way to good race melee, so we were out in the cold there too. Im glad they got rid of it, as i think such strict grouping rules on a mud that requires grouping is counterproductive. Back then once you liched im pretty sure you could only group with evilrace characters, and now its distinguished by race before lichdom. So i seriously doubt that liches/antis or evil aligned humans will be allowed to group with evilrace people simply because we have tried that in the past and it didnt work out very well; you just ended up with no goodrace evil aligned pbase instead of no evilrace pbase.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:38 pm

Ashiwi wrote:It's not "unrealistic" (in the setting of the fantasy stories involving the Forgotten Realms) for evil humans to group with trolls, orcs and the like. It's even been known for elves to do the same (such as Kymil Nemesin), in a very loose usage of the idea of "grouping." So technically we should all be able to group with each other if you want to keep bringing up reasons for any one group being able to group with another. Or we could just assume that goodies and evils can't group together for balance reasons and keep it that way. One or two necromancers on the goodie side aren't going to make that much of a difference for the evil pbase, certainly not enough for them to rehash the grouping code one more time.


Uh, being a FR geek. I thought i'd interject here. Kymil didn't 'group' with anyone. He used people, there's a big difference in a cooperative group, for which you will help your comrades, or such in Kymil's case where he'd venture out with them, and leave them for dead, or just kill them himself. He wouldn't care.

But to your point, I agree with you. One lich, or two liches won't be a big difference. Just means i'll have to actually think about feedback with another lich, otherwise it's all good. Leave it as it is, if you wanna group with evils, go roll one. :P
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Postby Dalar » Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:03 am

yea i know the solution is "go make an evilrace one" but it makes no sense that i can't group with evilraces just because I WAS a human. I'm a lich now
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Shevarash » Thu Mar 06, 2003 9:44 am

Well...it doesn't make any sense that a normal human can't group with a troll if they both so desire either.

The evil/good race grouping restrictions are an aritficial device for gameplay balance. I'm not sure what else to say about it, but I doubt it will change anytime soon.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:59 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:Uh, being a FR geek. I thought i'd interject here. Kymil didn't 'group' with anyone. He used people, there's a big difference in a cooperative group, for which you will help your comrades, or such in Kymil's case where he'd venture out with them, and leave them for dead, or just kill them himself. He wouldn't care.


That's why I used "grouping" in the loosest sense of the term. There's no option given in the game to "group friendly" or "group and use like the dogs they are." From the other side of the fence, Kymil never had to worry about a 15 person invasion force limit. Just trying to force it into game terms.
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Postby Baikalisan » Thu Mar 06, 2003 7:27 pm

Llaaldara wrote:
What evils need is more clerics. Especially ones who don't suffer from the I got ress i'm gonna retire from active playing now disease. Last night at one point there was 1 cleric on for evils. Me. a 21st un-eq'd 4th alt. I did a who goodie cleric and there was around 13. I don't want to hear about how bad evil clerics have it. I wasn't handed any of my uber spell quests. I quested mine. Evils are so desperate for clerics, any half-wit will get pleveled up and handed ress. :shock: :roll:

-LL



Ya wanna know whats funny, this is why ppl dont play evils.. and if for some reason they are brave enough to try they scrap it within a matter of days. Where do ya get off calling people half-wits? Because they dont play as much as you do? Or maybe because they arent as experienced as Yssilk or Baldorak? Or maybe its because your reputation preceedes you and people have heard the rumors and are afraid to go into unfamaliar places with unfamaliar leaders. This aspect of your post was in bad form, the only half-wit is you.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Mar 06, 2003 7:58 pm

Baikalisan wrote:
Llaaldara wrote:
What evils need is more clerics. Especially ones who don't suffer from the I got ress i'm gonna retire from active playing now disease. Last night at one point there was 1 cleric on for evils. Me. a 21st un-eq'd 4th alt. I did a who goodie cleric and there was around 13. I don't want to hear about how bad evil clerics have it. I wasn't handed any of my uber spell quests. I quested mine. Evils are so desperate for clerics, any half-wit will get pleveled up and handed ress. :shock: :roll:

-LL



Ya wanna know whats funny, this is why ppl dont play evils.. and if for some reason they are brave enough to try they scrap it within a matter of days. Where do ya get off calling people half-wits? Because they dont play as much as you do? Or maybe because they arent as experienced as Yssilk or Baldorak? Or maybe its because your reputation preceedes you and people have heard the rumors and are afraid to go into unfamaliar places with unfamaliar leaders. This aspect of your post was in bad form, the only half-wit is you.

Ya wanna know whats funny, you listened to Llaldara
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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