Shaman Spells

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Shaman Spells

Postby Bilraex » Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:50 am

Can someone take a look at shaman spells, they have been farked since the "slight" tweak to spirit wrack.
That slight tweak turned into stun lasting 1 rnd and landing maybe 30% of the time.
Thens there ancestral fury, i know areas dmg was tweaked down, but the fact that a 10th circle area spell misses everything in a small room is a bit silly.

You complete your spell...
Your ancestors rise up to eradicate your foes!
Your ancestral fury hits zero target, seven were outside of the area.
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Re: Shaman Spells

Postby Gerad » Thu Mar 06, 2003 5:13 am

Bilraex wrote:Can someone take a look at shaman spells, they have been farked since the "slight" tweak to spirit wrack.
That slight tweak turned into stun lasting 1 rnd and landing maybe 30% of the time.
Thens there ancestral fury, i know areas dmg was tweaked down, but the fact that a 10th circle area spell misses everything in a small room is a bit silly.

You complete your spell...
Your ancestors rise up to eradicate your foes!
Your ancestral fury hits zero target, seven were outside of the area.


Utterly agree, its all totally fubared...

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These are the pale deaths, which men miscall their lives
All this I cannot bear to witness any longer
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Mar 06, 2003 9:32 am

I'll take a look at spirit wrack. It still needs tweaking for sure, will have to get back to you on that. :)

As for Fury...though the damage was adjusted (like all non-invoker areas), that should not affect that "blast radius" whatsoever.

Fact is, any area spell can potentially miss everyone in a room, though that should be uncommon.
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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:12 pm

Can you also take a look at the stun effect on puppet? I haven't used it much, but the little that I have used it since these tweaks, it hasn't stunned a mob once.
I'm still not sure why stun was removed from jar the soul. Was nice for little shaman to use to by them some time to cast blind or something with the insane mob switching off pets now.
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Postby Galkar » Sat Mar 08, 2003 2:18 am

I cast puppet between 4-6 times every single fight solo. Which is a lot for me, considering I solo a lot. And never once has it stunned for me, since I got the spell, which was 9 levels ago. Unless it's stunning but not giving the message. *shrug*
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Postby Bilraex » Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:54 pm

Ive yet to see puppet stun since the "tweaks".
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Postby Dalar » Tue Mar 25, 2003 10:12 pm

there's only one solution: play a different class.
I went lich :)

Illusionists are the kings of stunning now.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:53 pm

Way I see it, the class was fine for a year. Why was it all of a sudden deemed that their stuns were too powerful? Think it was Uthgar that was over the shaman revamp, and Sheverash over the illusionists..
Any surprise that the god that made illusionists thought shaman should have stun removed from spells while illusionists keep their stuns, and area stuns, after Uthgar seemingly vanishes from the mud?
Yeah, I don't like my class downgraded. No, the answer is not to play another class.
Would it be too difficult to give reasons for the downgrades that do happen?
Oh, and "Because it was unbalanced" or "Just because" or "Deal with it" are not good answers and have been used way too much. Giving reasons behind downgrades is not going to reveal some mighty secret that will make the game super easy or anything.

Can ya tell I'm in a bitchy mood?
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Postby Gerad » Thu Mar 27, 2003 7:10 am

I will be quite frank as I dont care to BS around it,

Shaman were the best ballanced class on the mud before they were fucked with, and now youve fucked with them and turned them into a class that could certainly use another ability. No big deal, just a bad move.

Change it back. Shaman were a model for ballance on this mud.

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Postby Dalar » Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:25 am

Yea i found it funny how Shevarash was in charge of downgrading shamans but maintains illusionists as well. Illusionist nightmare is just like old sunray: you can hit one mob with a spell and jack the rest w/out getting aggro. Honestly, do we have to wait until Lili (no offense) to make an illu and abuse it? When i first saw someone twink tf circlet w/ it i wondered how long sunray would take to be fixed to an area. It took over a year. If you're going to screw over shamans with their stunning you should jack illusionists too. They have WAY too many functions. Having stun reduced doesn't mean much to me though because we can still silence mobs or quake them anyways.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Thu Mar 27, 2003 2:49 pm

But Dartan, you can only quake and silence if you have those spells.
For the smaller shaman that don't have them yet, that stun on jar the soul was nice, even though it didn't happen very often (was my experiance anyway). Even the stun on puppet was nice to have since you still don't have silence person at that level. I do agree that the almost !fail stun with spirit wrack needed adjusted, but thats the only thing I agree with.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Mar 27, 2003 7:10 pm

I don't really appreciate what some of are you implying here. There is no conspiracy against Shamans.

Perhaps some of you don't realize it, but I am "responsible for maintaining" every class. That doesn't mean I am the one who physically writes every bit of code, but it all goes through me.

I'm happy as always to discuss these new changes with all of you, and adjust them if needed, but you will get nowhere by questioning my motives and implying some sort of "class favoritism".
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Postby Dalar » Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:28 pm

how about decreasing the stun duration for thunderblast and nightmare to that of spirit wrack?
imho a stun shouldn't last more than 2 rounds.
nightmare/thunderblast change the fights to the point were one group or the other is probably going to win. if the stun duration wasn't so high it would be more fair
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:58 pm

Shevy, it was just my opinion based on what it appeared was going on to me. Opinions have a habit of being wrong most of the time, as you probably know. I seen one class get a downgrade, while another kept all its function and even had an upgrade without any explanation of why the one class was downgraded. Granted, the staff doesn't have to explain every single thing they do, but it would be nice at times to keep peoples opinions and ideas from getting out of hand.
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Postby Nassis » Sat Mar 29, 2003 2:21 am

So illuses have it so much better than shamans downgradewise, eh?

Yes, nighmare is a good spell, but then stun is amongs the primary functions of an illus. wth should shamans have it? they have nearly everything else. granted, they're not the best at much but they're 2nd best at many things.
They're probably the most overpowered class on the mud.

Shaman:
(I started listing all the good shaman spells, but kept having to add to list. look at it, nearly everything is there...)

Shaman downgrades:
"Aah! we cant stun as much as we used to! not fair! everyone hates us! look ma, I can whine like a ranger!"

Illus downgrades:
10th circle: (planned spell dim shift was never put in game)
9th: massmorph, severly crippled.
8th: mislead, made self only then crippled.
7th: camouflage, made not castable in combat.
6th: displacement, less effective (seems to last quite a bit shorter too).
tranquility, toned down. Never thought of using it much before someone twinked something with it, so I dunno details.
(Probably left some out. I'm tired...)

Bah I say! Bah!

(I'm all better now)
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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Sat Mar 29, 2003 4:22 am

If you want to start listing spells that every class was supposed to, then there is at least one for every class on here. Some have more then that.

Every spell you listed (with the exception of mass morph perhaps) still has its uses as I see damn near every illus use them.

Sure, I can still use puppet for damage as a shaman, but did I use it for that at high lvls? Nope. At least not regularly. When I was lower level, I used it a lot for the stun to keep the damn mobs from switching so much so that I might get at least one other spell off. Same with jar the soul.
My biggest gripe over all I think is that no mention of removing stun from puppet was ever listed in the news. Only jar the soul, which already had a low stun percent from what I could tell.

And yes, shaman are a jack of all trades, master of none. If we were, we'd have group full heal, a massive area damage and stun spell, displace, and dragonscales. ;)

Illus were still better at stunning before these changes were put in. I was almost always getting out stunned by them while in a group. I didn't and still don't complain about that. The stun on the spells just gave the class a little more variety and utility when the group couldn't get an illus.

PS: If shaman wern't ment to be stunners, then they never would have gotten stun spells to start with.

Oh, and Shevy.
If you wanna discuss things, start with some of the questions already posted in this thread. Most of the people here play a shaman and I'm sure they would wanna hear the answers. :)
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Postby Kifle » Sat Mar 29, 2003 8:29 am

Nassis, first play shaman, then act like you know whats going on. And if you already have a shaman, play it more, learn the class, then act like you know whats going on. Obviously you put very very little thought into your counter productive post.

Nekler wrote a nice response but left out something.

1. Shamans are not over powered. Our soloability was strongly reinforced and caused in part by our ability to stun. Why? Because none of our spells last very long. Blind lasts about 1 minute, if that sometimes. Silence wont last longer than it takes me to cast my spirit wracks and re-mem them.

2. Our tanks are pretty good for the most part, but they lack something. Globes. If i am up against a mob that is shielded, it is a better idea to stun/flee/hex/flee/stun flee wash rinse repeat rather than use my tank because he is dead in about 6 rounds due to his hitting ability.

3. Most importantly, this is not a discussion about illusionists and why you think they have been downgraded unfairly. If you wish to talk about this, make your own topic. I know quite a few illusionists that do a hell of a lot more than my shaman or any other shaman can do for that matter. And yes, i mean more illusionists can do this other than Corth...he just has it easier :) Illusionists have stuns, decent nukes, and rogue-esque abilities.

the end.
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Postby Nassis » Mon Mar 31, 2003 2:37 pm

1st, yes, I put very little thought into my post. Someone posted about how shamans were constantly downgraded while illusionists were left alone (ie not downgraded). That made me roll my eyes and rant a little. Context, Kif, context...

And Kifle writing "Our tanks are pretty good for the most part, but they lack something."
- thats seems to be the shaman players mindset (the whiny ones that is). As in "we should be able to do everything".
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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Mon Mar 31, 2003 8:45 pm

I agree that we lack globes for our spirits, but if we had them the class would be majorly overpowered. I think anyone can agree on that. Amps should work fine for when you need globe, or bring along an enchanter or mentalist. They are normally way more talkative then a spirit is anyway. ;)

I'm not complaining about the power of the class. The power is still there minus what was taken away from all area spells sans invokers. Its the utility of the class that was taken away that I'm complaining about. To me, it makes no sense. The stun on those spells in no way made things unbalanced in my mind. That is why I posted. Perhaps I got a bid carried away by saying Shev was favoring one class over another, and I'm sorry about that. It just looked that way to me, and I'm guessing it might have to a few others as well.

I'm still waiting to hear an explination of why the stun was removed, but I know Shevy is a busy guy and has a life like the rest of us, so I can wait for awhile.
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Postby Bilraex » Thu Apr 03, 2003 3:16 pm

This was never meant to be a comparision of downgrades to classes. Get your own post.

This is about the fact that the one shaman target spell that does anything is now crap. That the "tweeks" to shaman stun made spirit wrack stun like 10% of the time and those stuns lasting 1 rnd.

Shev I know you are doing what you can, but it is dishearting to lose the one thing that is kinda important to the soloing abilities of our class. I dont see where spirit wrack stun was over balancing, specially not with area stun spells and other stunning abilities.

And on another note i spent a bit of time in podville casting puppets on pod kids.
Out of 100 puppets cast not one stunned. Puppet stun is broke.
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Postby Galkar » Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:46 pm

I did 4 man brass with an illusionist, enchanter, elementalist, and myself a shaman. Here's the break down of what it was.

Illusionist - stun, damage, displace, nondetect
Elementalist - embody, continuous pets, ice tongue, damage, para
Enchanter - Dscale, blue, para, some damage, globe, pwb
Shaman - vit, heal

I was casting damage, silences, blinds, hexes at first, but eventually stopped, cuz I noticed:

a. Mobs were awful by the time hex landed, hex doesn't last that long anyways
b. shaman silences suck, got beat every time
c. blind doesn't hold a candle to pwb
d. damage wasn't worth the effort really

I didn't use my pet considering it has shitty MR and would die quick to several clouds, and after 3 spirits i'm done. Basically the shamans big use in groups of any kind is gheals, other stuff can help occasionally true, but is easily replaced with several other classes.

I do however like my shaman and will continue to play him, and I'm not trying to whine, but if we're going to be jack of all trades, masters of none but the gheal, maybe give us a few more pet summons, or let us dscale/blur pets, or put stun on a couple more spells. We're not asking for anything uber :P
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Postby Bilraex » Thu Apr 03, 2003 7:02 pm

ya i love playing shaman, im not asking for anything but spirit wrack and puppet to return to normal. There are of course other things i wouldnt mind, but losing stun is huge.
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Postby Bipple » Fri Apr 04, 2003 1:23 am

With illus losing sneak/hide I think Stun should be left exactly where it is, or even reduced more on Shaman spells. It's now become a primary ability/reason to bring a certain class to zones so a second class shouldn't be able to do it nearly as well if at all.
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Postby Galkar » Fri Apr 04, 2003 1:33 am

Primary reason? I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Displace, nondetect, damage, tendrils, fold, gate, and a few i'm sure i'm missing are more reasons to bring illusionists than a lot of other classes zones.
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Postby Bipple » Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:02 am

Galkar wrote:Primary reason? I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Displace, nondetect, damage, tendrils, fold, gate, and a few i'm sure i'm missing are more reasons to bring illusionists than a lot of other classes zones.


The only thing there that can't be obtained via another class is displace and while the recent changes make it a lot better it alone doesn't make a class. Fold is nice but not really necessary for most zones. Stun is a great ability and should be one of the main reasons to bring Illus. In combination with the abilities you listed above it makes the class a lot more rounded. Shaman hardly need stun to get zone groups.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:57 am

Nassis wrote:And Kifle writing "Our tanks are pretty good for the most part, but they lack something."
- thats seems to be the shaman players mindset (the whiny ones that is). As in "we should be able to do everything".



Once again, very little thought. I never asked for globes. If we got globes we would be overpowered. I was just bringing it up because our tanks aren't as good as some believe. After a while, i hardly ever used my spirit because of this and a few other things.
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Postby Galkar » Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:57 am

Never said shaman have trouble getting groups. We shaman are not trying to take jobs away from illusionists. Hell, all we're asking is that some of the stun we did have get put back in. It's not particularly helpful to us in zones considering other things we do, so we're not taking a niche from anyone. What it DOES help however, is solo'ing capabilities, and considering insane mob switching, it helps us land some hex's/blinds before we get beat down. And FYI, from what I've seen some of those illusionists do, I'd take one zoning with me any day of the week :P
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Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:05 am

Bipple wrote:
Galkar wrote:Primary reason? I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Displace, nondetect, damage, tendrils, fold, gate, and a few i'm sure i'm missing are more reasons to bring illusionists than a lot of other classes zones.


The only thing there that can't be obtained via another class is displace and while the recent changes make it a lot better it alone doesn't make a class. Fold is nice but not really necessary for most zones. Stun is a great ability and should be one of the main reasons to bring Illus. In combination with the abilities you listed above it makes the class a lot more rounded. Shaman hardly need stun to get zone groups.


Heh, i can think of at least 4 zones off the top of my head where fold isn't necessary, but makes the zone doable in a decent amount of time..one of those being clouds. Well takes to long to cast in most situations. Illusionists should be the masters of stun, but shamans should be back to where they were. Room stun > target stun.

Of coarse, if you want stunning to be the illusionists staple, then make their nukes worse, take away their travel spells, and completely take away camo because you are infringing on other peoples staple spells, ie. invokers, druids, rogues respectivly. because by your logic, if thats why a class is asked to zone, nobody else should have even a semblance of their skills.
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Postby Galkar » Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:06 am

Hehehe, spirit tanks suck against casters. 2 clouds'll kill a 500hp spirit :P
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Postby Yayaril » Fri Apr 04, 2003 5:33 am

8)

2 clouds kill a 500 hp anything that doesn't have MR.
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Postby Dlur » Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:38 pm

Everyone knows that the main staple skills of a zoning group are headbutt and the "ventriloquate" spell. If a player doesn't have one of these two staple skills, they don't get to go on any zoning group with me. If I'm feeling particularly nice though I'll allow for people with forage to join instead.
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Postby Sala » Fri May 09, 2003 7:26 am

Ok. forgive me please if this is very badly put. I have never posted to a discussion like this before. In a nutshell, Im a noob.

I have several things to say.

1. Yeah, I've noticed a difference in the puppet and spirit wrack. I have not really paid attention to puppet, but spirit wrack is my fave spell. To be honest, I dont really have a problem solo'ing. (except on mobs that can see invis lol - again, me = noob)

Getting the stun thing back to normal would be nice, but I wont complain.

OK, Galkar said this:
b. shaman silences suck, got beat every time

IMO Not True. I been zoning a bit recently, and my silences have been landing first. In fact, Llandrien called me the silence goddess. It happened the whole zone. I just couldnt seem to miss. Now yes, there are days when I cant get one to land. But silences are fine - again IMO.

Because Im a noob, and have not yet been playing for a year, I usually dont get into these types of discussions. I dont want to be disrespectful to the Gods, or hurt anyone's feelings. I think that the Jar the Soul spell should be fixed to help the lower level shamans, and that puppet stun should be back to normal, (or at least have puppet stun once in a hundred casts) but as for Spirit Wrack, I wont complain, because for me it still stuns quite often.

There. I have added my 2 cents, and I hope it makes sense.
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Postby Guest » Fri May 09, 2003 8:22 am

Shaman silence person is identical to cleric's. Even the quick chant caps are the same.
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Postby Bilraex » Fri May 09, 2003 1:17 pm

btw since i started this post i have yet to see one single puppet stun.

And since im on the topic of shamans being screwed, what the hell was done to spirits, i used to get 650-700 hp ones now im lucky if i can get one over 600 hp. (and no it has nothing to do with skill or wis yadada)
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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Fri May 09, 2003 1:38 pm

Welcome to shaman being set back to doing only one thing... gheal.

Everyone bitches cause we have the best pets basicly, so they get downgraded. (We should have the best pets. We have to wait till lvl 21 to get them, do a quest to get them (ok, so its an easy quest), and we only get three FAILABLE attempts to get them in like three and a half hours rl.)

We finally got spells that done a little more then just damage, then oops.. Illusionists are in, time to cut out the stop gap. (The change to spirit wrack stun was fine, but why was puppet and jar the soul touched?)

Ancestral shield is nice.. would be nicer if it helped a little with dragon breath and lasted a tad longer.

Spiritwalk and scry remains is nice and all.. If you like to always be doing people's CR's. I've only used it when the person was too lazy or had to run right away to CR themselves. (Give us pshift or gate or relocate or some kinda transpo spell. We are a cross between mages and clerics yet we have no transpo spells like them.)

Sorry Bil, I don't mean to hijack your thread.. just no one seems to want to touch on these subjects, yet when someone questions silence person, it gets a reply. (BTW, silence person is fine, it just has its days like everything else.)
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Postby old depok » Fri May 09, 2003 5:51 pm

I don't know guys. The only thing I don't do that I did before the code changes is stun. The only change that has made is make me MORE valuable since mobs now actually get to cast a bit so my gheals are more valuable.

I might be the exception but I have a hard time playing another class because I have so much to do as a shaman that when I play another class they are boring.

So you ask, what do I do?

Pre fight
Vit
Stone
Armor
DI
Dm
Realms self

I usually have a few vit targets and I usually also stone them unless the group is being scaled.

I field calls for DI/DM/Armor on an ongoing basis.

During fight
Hex
Gheal
AShield
Nuke
Silence
Cycle gheals
Rescue with my spirit (this depends on the group mix but I do this a lot)

I am constantly busy and feel that I am one of the few classes that can make a huge difference in a fight/zone going well or going badly.

So I don't stun.

Just don't want people to think that all a shaman adds to your group is a few heals :>)
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Postby Lirathal » Fri May 09, 2003 6:04 pm

upgrade Invokers! 5 Force Missiles! Upgrade Areas! UPGRADE UPGRADE! I can't newk fast enough! :lol:
Nippewuciyole OOC: 'getting some'
Levvirrnaxxum OOC: 'omg i am sucking bad'
Nippewuciyole OOC: 'i'm a hershey's chocolate, omg i need some'

Teflor OOC: 'civility is also the intolerance of things uncivil.'
Teflor OOC: 'hey, when someone is purposefully trying to antagonize you, the only civil thing to do is to tell them to shove it'

Make it stop, Make it stop *cry*
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Postby Bilraex » Fri May 09, 2003 6:39 pm

this has nothing to do with shamans and zoning, i dont try to stun things while zoning unless i have too, this has to do with downgrading stun to prevent shamans from soloing things. They say it was a tweek cause it was too powerfull, but if stun is so overpowered why just shamans? This has to do with the current trend of attempting to stop people (shamans in the case) from soloing.
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Postby old depok » Fri May 09, 2003 8:20 pm

Sorry Bil. I guess I got that from Nekler's welcome to Shaman only being good for Gheals.

You using spirit wrack to stun casters while soloing?

I just changed strategies a bit for that.

I never noticed that stun would stop bashing though. Maybe I was just missing it.

Depok
Bilraex
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Postby Bilraex » Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:04 pm

btw i have still yet to see a puppet stun

maybe we can "tweak" mob bash and prism same way as shaman stun
Kribble
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pshaw

Postby Kribble » Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:03 pm

Tweak prism!? TWEAK prism!?

Dear lord, how could you tarnish something so beautiful?
How could you taint the beautiful and perfect irony that the single best and most incredible invocation spell wasn't given to invokers!?

If they tweak prism any time in the next ten years I'm blaming it on you and finding out where you live.

Cackle!

Ohyeah Shamans: With mem times like that, stoopid shamans should be given much more powerful spells... kind of like a pity thing.

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