Downgrade Rangers!

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Zen
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Downgrade Rangers!

Postby Zen » Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:53 am

I'll be the first to admit I'm well equipped and my experience is tainted by access to equipment, but that said, I would make the following suggestions and I think they are valid. (Even newbies are quite well equiped by level 30 nowadays)

1) Increase ranger xp tables slightly. Everything gets harder after level 46, but rangers level entirely too fast at lower levels. I make a point to die three times a day and I still get one or two levels without blinking.

2) Make archery available at level 30 with riposte and missile snare. No other class on the mud has its most lethal skill so effective so soon. Even the few core classes who get their 'defining' skills at level 1 have to wait until level 30-40 before they work reliably. Rangers should not be an exception.

I had to say it, thank you all for your kind flames and devoted, caring responses in advance.

-Llandrien Brightwater

/tog flamethrower on
Mitharx
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Mar 31, 2003 8:34 am

I consider this post to be one of the most valid I've seen in a long time because LLandrien isn't 50 yet. Most people would wait till they hit 50 (or at least high 40s) to start saying that a class is too easy. It's impressive. Anyway, I don't know about ranger tables, but if you say they're too easy, they are. I'm just wondering if the class is useless (as many people have said) why bother making it any harder to play? :(

Not knocking your suggestion, I'm just wondering if there are any updates on giving rangers a more proper station in life because I know there have been numerous rangers suck type of posts. And yes I know, people like Weylarii, Kasula, Mithil, and Talomis (just to name a few) dont' see to suck at all, but people claim the ranger class does.
Enough rambling, discuss.
Lazus
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Re: Downgrade Rangers!

Postby Lazus » Tue Apr 01, 2003 2:01 am

Zen wrote:I'll be the first to admit I'm well equipped and my experience is tainted by access to equipment, but that said, I would make the following suggestions and I think they are valid. (Even newbies are quite well equiped by level 30 nowadays)


I've just gotta ask, but when did frost giant warlord crown, diamondines, sunstones, adamantite bands, djinn greaves, and my favorite, Kern Platemail become handouts to newbies?

Don't get me wrong, you worked for your set, but to complain cause exp's too easy? Try starting in your newbie gear, and leveling him up, earning your equipment, refusing handouts. After that, come back and complain about any class having their exp charts be too easy. If you want more of a challenge, make it challenging for yourself.

Lazus
Arilin Nydelahar
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Apr 01, 2003 2:57 am

Damn. Rangers whine about anything, don't they? First about wanting upgrades, and now downgrades!
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Zen
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Postby Zen » Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:13 pm

I'm glad you're on such familiar terms with my equipment, but I think you forgot to add my mighty quiver in there, I'm sure that really makes or breaks a class.

I don't deny that equipment has an effect on any class, and even more effect on hitters than mages. In terms of equipment, however I have maybe 15 damage over what a new player could attain by level 30 with a few friends they met along the way. You can debate how much of an effect this has till you're blue in the face, but what isn't debatable is that archery does obscene amounts of damage regardless of level and equipment.

My points are perfectly valid, and if making suggestions about class balance on the mud is whining, then the whole mud is full of whiners. Liches are no exception.

-Zen
Gerad
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Postby Gerad » Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:27 pm

Dude, playing a ranger is a _WHOLE OTHER WORLD_ depending on what gear you have. Without access to 34/44 hit/dam, your world would suck complete and total balls. Tainted by your access to equipment? Completely.

Do this.

Start a new ranger without using any other gear. Then level up again.

Your next post would be crying for an upgrade.

-g

Oh BTW: 15 dammage = 45 or more a round on top of what a middie is throwing. Do you have windsong? Add it up over 4-7 addtl hits.
<I>When a man lies, he murders some part of the world
These are the pale deaths, which men miscall their lives
All this I cannot bear to witness any longer
Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home?</I>
Arilin Nydelahar
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Apr 01, 2003 11:44 pm

Zen wrote:I'm glad you're on such familiar terms with my equipment, but I think you forgot to add my mighty quiver in there, I'm sure that really makes or breaks a class.

I don't deny that equipment has an effect on any class, and even more effect on hitters than mages. In terms of equipment, however I have maybe 15 damage over what a new player could attain by level 30 with a few friends they met along the way. You can debate how much of an effect this has till you're blue in the face, but what isn't debatable is that archery does obscene amounts of damage regardless of level and equipment.

My points are perfectly valid, and if making suggestions about class balance on the mud is whining, then the whole mud is full of whiners. Liches are no exception.

-Zen


Why'd you even bring up liches? I don't whine about Liches. But, for once, I agree with Gerard, and most people here. Ditch your equipment, start a noob, go there. Then go complain about something.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Fri Apr 04, 2003 1:55 am

I've already had half of this discussion with Zen. While his equipment is biasing things heavily, the problem of ranged damage being out of whack at lower levels isn't a new one. It had similar issues back on Sojourn 2 under the old ranged engine. The effect of the skills on damage needs to be made more exponential since only 2 skills affected ranged, archery/throwing weapons and range specialist. Compare that to 1h piercing, offense, and circle for rogues. That conservative 15 or so damroll advantage estimate obviously throws things out of whack compared to other classes when its put into whatever damage multipliers are used in ranged so I don't think it's quite as big of a problem as Zen makes it out to be. Don't forget that damroll from arrows counts too and that the bow adds damage to EVERY arrow, not just when it uses its proc. I'd be interested in seeing the difference if you used a silver engraved bow, which is pretty much the only step between newbies bows and high end ones right now . . .

I definately disagree with the placement of ranged skills at 30 though. 30 is about when the hunt for mid level eq really begins. Adding in new elements for new rangers to learn about, much less find, would be a pain. Strays are something you should have to learn about EARLY. Ranged can be enough of a liability to a group as is without putting the learning curve later. Plus, I doubt that ranged will stay bare bones as it is forever. If ranged skills are put at 30, any special commands the gods later decide to have that utilize ranged will be a bit more constrained in impelmentation. Everything would have to be put in within a 10 level span unless a coder decides to start tossing in post 40 skills . . .

If there is a change in the levels ranged skills are acquired, I think that archery/throwing weapons should still be 1st level skills, but range specialist should come at 20 or 15. This of course assumes that ranged can still work without the range specialist skill. We don't exactly have mercenaries and assassins to check it out today.

And a big no on any exp change. The exp tables for rangers are balanced for dual wielding and many exp spots for mid levels are dangerous to use ranged in. Making rangers liabilities to the group during midlevels when in areas that have multiple exp mobs in the same room would piss many people off, not just the rangers.
Zen
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Postby Zen » Fri Apr 04, 2003 4:12 am

Treladian wrote:And a big no on any exp change. The exp tables for rangers are balanced for dual wielding and many exp spots for mid levels are dangerous to use ranged in.


That pretty much says it all. Ranger XP tables need to be re-evaulated with archery in mind.

I have not been saying that archery is too powerful, I have been saying that it is too much too soon, especially when you factor in considerable equipment. I was around for sojourn 2 and I made levels 30-40 in 3 days with an elven longbow when it went in on sojourn 2. Now we have better arrows and proc bows. Archery does not suffer from level based THACO the way dual wield does and the damage is not comparible either. If ranged combat is the vision for rangers, then archery has to be factored into the xp tables.

At this point, I've leveled four goodie melee class ups to zoning level, and I've done so with fairly stacked equipment in every case. The ranger is hands down the to fastest level. Archery and the damage xp it provides is too much too soon.

-Zen
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Fri Apr 04, 2003 10:37 pm

First off, I'd never compare ranged damage to what it was like on Sojourn2 when the damage was revamped to, well, actually do damage. Everyone agrees that it was absolutely insane when it first went in there. They spent a lot of time adjusting the damage after that . . .

"That pretty much says it all. Ranger XP tables need to be re-evaulated with archery in mind. "

Then many exp areas also need to be overhauled with archery in mind. Too many areas popular for midlevel exp have multiple mobs in the same room or spellcasters wandering that can get hit with strays and turn the ranger into a liability for the group. Ship is fine to let lose with arrows on, but druid sanctuary exp could get really ugly. Additionally, the various mobs that have no money would also have to go since arrows can cost a lot at midlevels. 250 gold/20 plat is a significant chunk of a level 20's bank account. Additionally, Waterdeep rangers don't have as easy access to decent arrows as EM rangers. Traversing the fields of the dead to run down to BG isn't as easy for a level 20 to do as walking a few west and then 2 south from LS's west gate.

The best way to summarize my feelings on ranged in general, including this, is the following: Ranged combat is NOT just something limited to the coding sphere. Because of the equipment required and the way strays interact with mobs, large changes to the code will likely require larged changes to areas as well. Many of the areas designed for midlevel exp cannot safely support rangers with midlevel skills due to the density of mobs. Unless this area matter is accounted for when a code change that affects midlevel exp is made, there will be a swing of balance greatly exceeding what's just done in code.

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