Camouflage

[Dizzin]

This spell is one that most illusionists will never bother casting, especially now that you cant do it in combat. Illusionists have a multitude of other spells that allows them to escape a spank or other possibly dangerous situation, so much so that casting camouflage would be more bother than it's worth.

As it sits, this spell is used by a very small minority of illusionists, read 2 people, to go beyond what anyone's observance of "balance" could possibly be.

Also, this spell gives a !fail skill that is historically the domain of a melee class. The hide cloak was removed from game, and then the remaining cloaks were nerfed and nerfed repeatedly into unusability. If we want items that give those skills removed, which was a good idea of course, then why give them to a *mage* class that is already overpowered?

I would ask for the removal of camouflage from the illusionists repertoire. Illusionists are fugging powerful as hell without being rogues as well.

Thank you for your time.

[Bipple]

What is your argument? First you state the ability has been downgraded to the point that it's useless and almost no one will use it. Then you go on to say the spell is to powerful and should be removed. It sounds more like you want the spell removed to spite a select few players than for any valid reason.

[Corth]

i'm amused by the fact that we're talking about the 'historical' significance of the sneak/hide skill. :)

Anyway, dont hate me cause my pipi is bigger than yours!

Corth

[Tasan]

Please remove all spells/skills that allow classes to be diverse and allow individuals to shine... I'm tired of everyone being different, everyone should be exactly the same. In fact, remove all classes except one, so everyone is balanced.

</sarcasm>
T

[Dizzin]

That's exactly my point. The ONLY people who use it are people with volo boots. And they use it in a way that throws balance out of whack. Now I understand Tia items have a way of doing that regardless, but this can at least be balanced out by the removal of Camouflage.

And frankly, yes, I'm fugging pissed that evilraces have no chance at all of having this ability since our ONLY Illusionist race have no feet. And since it seems there's no wish to give evilraces Illusionists with feet, and we all know Tia items will never be downgraded and that new sneak items will never be added to the game, I'm attacking a skill that frankly should never have been given to a mage class in the first place.

[Mitharx]

Corth is one of the few 1 man CR machines. Downgrade him and I will be forced to come after you . . .
But seriously, this ability (Tia boots/cam) is owned by so few people that it doesn't really need to be downgraded. It would just make CRs harder and while they're not often overly difficult now, I do want that one elite player to be able to run in to musp and drag my fat ass out. That's all.

[Verarb]

Hang on! isnt there an evil with Hide cloak + Volos + Heal + summoning?. In any zone where a rogue was historically needed, they are still needed despite volos.
I really cant think of anywhere where camo infringes on a rogues domain.
Why you hating?

[Tasan]

That's exactly my point. The ONLY people who use it are people with volo boots. And they use it in a way that throws balance out of whack. Now I understand Tia items have a way of doing that regardless, but this can at least be balanced out by the removal of Camouflage.

And frankly, yes, I'm fugging pissed that evilraces have no chance at all of having this ability since our ONLY Illusionist race have no feet. And since it seems there's no wish to give evilraces Illusionists with feet, and we all know Tia items will never be downgraded and that new sneak items will never be added to the game, I'm attacking a skill that frankly should never have been given to a mage class in the first place.

So by your reasoning...

Let's give barbarians doorbash.
Let's give humans drow int.
Let's give elf warriors troll con and agility.
Oh and give illithids moonwell. Because we know not having that is really unfair.

Twinshadow

[Nokie]

As a rogue I feel that it's fine the way it is. I don't feel that it infringes upon our abilities. Indeed, there are some limitations to the spell that rogues don't have to deal with.

I could be biased, of course, since I'm guilded with Corth (as an example).

[jalahon]

I use camo a hell of a lot and I dont have a pair of volos...Its usefullness goes far beyond what you have stated, Diz, and just because you believe two people throw the game "out of whack" doesn't mean the spell should be destroyed. I'd be sorely disappointed to see this spell go.

[Dizzin]

Pretty much expected these replies, so just a couple more things that you guys brought up that I shall refute before I bow out and leave it up to the staff.

Verarb, the hide cloak has been nerfed again recently. Most likely after that person you're talking about basically singlehandedly CRed a nasty Muspel spank. About 2 days later, the cloak was made practically unusable. Apparently it's fine for Illusionists to CR like that, but not Shamans!

As for diversity in the mud, Twyl, I know you're a ranger, so I'll try to make this as simple as possible for you. Goodies have a race with drow int, they're called... Elves! *boggle* And if you want elves to eat 800 hp clouds, then go ahead and give them troll con. And if barbarians want to be bashed by giants and switched to by everything else that CANT bash them, then give them doorbash too, not that big a deal.

And for illithids getting moonwell, after our last Tia run, we were told that illithids WOULD get a wormhole type skill before Tia went back in again. :)

I'm all for diversity too. Heck, I've been asking for *more* diversity. Splitting the yuan-ti race into purebloods and halfbreeds would allow those of us who are willing to sacrifice innates and some intelligence/agility to gain back the 4 eq slots we're currently missing.

*shrug* Or allow drow to be illusionists.

I leave it up to Shev now as I have faith in him to do what's necessary.

[Tasan]

I pretty much expected that response. :roll:

Notice I was comparing drow to their good race equivalent: humans... or did you completely miss that?

And as for the rest of the "detriments" you pointed out, they are all based on single instances, not overall abilities.... funny how that works!

Anyhow, whine away, because things are SOOO unbalanced! I can't believe Shev hasn't already implemented drow illusionists... he must not know how badly things are for the poor poor evils.

T

[Dalar]

let's start whining about how having 5 illithid w/ ultrablast can mess up any zone b/c there aren't many enchanter mobs

[Birile]

I think we all know that there are classes that the goodraces have an advantage with and classes the evilraces have an advantage with. We all have our gripes about these sorts of things and wish we had the advantage that so-and-so has, etc. etc. But that's the price we pay for the diversity. The game would be a little more boring if there were more similarity between the good/evil races and between the classes.

Mind you, I don't know what volo boots are/do since I'm a relative n00b. Frankly, I don't care because it seems there are only a few in the game. Nor do I know anything about sneak cloaks (and think it's pretty sad if it's true that an item was downgraded because someone busted their ass doing something relatively amazing). The Imms put a halt to Tia probably because they realized how overly uber many of the items are (though I'd kill for a slaadi lords belt or crescent moon ammy). I think changing a class's skills/spells or changing a race's innates is the wrong way to go about calling for reform in instances where an item and skill combo gives a character any particular advantage deemed unfair.

As someone pointed out, lots of illusie's use camouflage to great effect without these fabled volo boots. It's a matter of play style. Big deal.

That being said, I don't see why there are no drow illusionists. Drow are kin to Grey Elves, yes, but they've taken a separate path and illusion and trickery seems to fit them just fine in my eyes. But I suppose that's a matter of opinion. I've got a human illusie (tiny though he is) and wouldn't complain about the amazing int advantage, but again, that's just me. No matter what, there'll always be someone who's unhappy.

[Shevarash]

To head off any accusations/bitching/moaning/etc :

The change to camo was made, by myself, this last weekend prior to the posting of this thread.

Interesting timing, though.

[Xisiqomelir]

I pretty much expected that response. :roll:

Notice I was comparing drow to their good race equivalent: humans... or did you completely miss that?

The evilrace of equivalent of humans are orcs.

And as for the rest of the "detriments" you pointed out, they are all based on single instances, not overall abilities.... funny how that works!

I have no idea what you meant by this. Racial drawbacks are naturally instance by instance. What is an "overall ability" detriment?

Anyhow, whine away, because things are SOOO unbalanced! I can't believe Shev hasn't already implemented drow illusionists... he must not know how badly things are for the poor poor evils.

As someone pointed out long ago, if Drow illusionists were allowed, there would be little purpose in anyone playing the Yuan-ti race.

[Corth]

....Unscheduled, involuntary, pipi reduction surgery.... without anasthesia. :)

[rylan]

*comfort* Corth.
Time to find out a new way to get your pipi bigger ;)

[Yayaril]

8)

Corth is an illusionist- perhaps he could stuff his pants with socks and have the illusion of a big pipi.

[Llaaldara]

I pretty much expected that response. :roll:

Notice I was comparing drow to their good race equivalent: humans... or did you completely miss that?

The evilrace of equivalent of humans are orcs.

And as for the rest of the "detriments" you pointed out, they are all based on single instances, not overall abilities.... funny how that works!

I have no idea what you meant by this. Racial drawbacks are naturally instance by instance. What is an "overall ability" detriment?

Anyhow, whine away, because things are SOOO unbalanced! I can't believe Shev hasn't already implemented drow illusionists... he must not know how badly things are for the poor poor evils.

As someone pointed out long ago, if Drow illusionists were allowed, there would be little purpose in anyone playing the Yuan-ti race.

Um.. err. Sure there is! Day-vision! I think Ssorcasus is a wonderful tank! I think Sszantiel is an Uber lich! I wish I'd been Yuan when I liched! They rule with tail-sweep! Don't tell Ssirri he's an enchanter! Or Ssissiv! etc etc into something about how I see more !illus yuan players then illus yuan players.

I understand why Grey Elves can't be illusionists, but I never got why Drow can't be. I've long said, I'd love to be a drow illusionist! :wink:

I think the Illusionist class looks very fun! It's probably going to be the next class I level up! :D I just dunno what race yet :cry: I don't play a yuan or even have one rolled up cuz, well.. (and this might sound corney) but like.. I dunno how to RP as a snake! I always pick my characters on the basis if I can RP that or not. :roll: It was fun being the over-bearing and domineering drows I've played for two years, but I'm having a blast being Grey Elf Trailor Trash now =^)

Geez I hope people don't think I'm really like that. It's just RP! I'm not that slutty in rl damnit!!! :wink:

-LL