Why is it?

[Galkar]

I'm curious, not bitching, just making a point i guess.

Why is it, when a player uses his skills to the utmost abilities, utilizing them in the best ways possible, in ways not all can do, there must be downgrades?

It's kinda like people can't be to strong because they stand out and can accomplish more than others without everyone getting downgraded.

Oh my god, he just took at that whole room of pods with one area! Time for a downgrade!

Not ranting, but this is actually a serious question. Several Illusionists were really good at sneaking/hiding. So what. Lili found a weakness, not a bug, in a zone. So what. Isn't that what skills/exploring/leveling/playing the game is all about? Finding weaknesses, the easiest path from a to z?Why take things away once players figure out how to use their skills to get through a zone a bit easier? *shrug*

After a while, nothing will be possible without the same group of classes, casting the same spells, doing every zone exactly the same way, day in, day out. Kinda monotonous if you ask me.

Lookin for a serious answer here :P

[Bipple]

It's usually easier for average players to complain about players who have played and excelled at their class and get them downgraded then to bother putting in the time and effort themselves to increase their skills. If the gods choose to keep catering to these players and downgrade those with skills so they are closer to average it really does seem to reduce the drive to try to do things better/different than everyone else.

[Shevarash]

Your point is flawed, primarily because it just isn't true. I take downgrades of any kind very seriously. Most ideas for downgrading are rejected. Those that do slip through get in because we feel they are neccessary to maintain game balance.

I could explain it further, but that's the general idea right there. Also, you may want to read this:

http://kor.sojourn3.org:8080/phpBB2/vie ... hp?t=10802

[Ashiwi]

As much as I respect the players who truly excel at their class and find new, innovative ways to do things, my guess would be that these very few eventually dominate some of the better equipment and rareloads in the game, using their techniques to sneak past obstacles that most groups have to use just to get to the mobs. This normally wouldn't be a problem until these players use this technique over and over, taking pieces from zones which are some of the better rewards for the zone, leaving the groups that go to do the zone later out in the cold. It's also possible to lure rareloads into rarely done areas, thereby 'hiding' them until you can gather a group of sufficient force to do them later.

I'm not saying either is necessarily a bad thing, until it gets to the point where some of the main reasons for doing a zone are already picked out, reducing the reward for effort for that zone for a zoning group, which isn't a good thing when so many people want to go zoning in order to have a chance at winning that certain piece. When this happens on a regular basis while those skilled players use their techniques to make sure all their friends and the alts of their friends have that item, or continue to get the item for purposes of trade, it can turn into a bad thing.

Just a guess.

[Dalar]

As much as I respect the players who truly excel at their class and find new, innovative ways to do things, my guess would be that these very few eventually dominate some of the better equipment and rareloads in the game, using their techniques to sneak past obstacles that most groups have to use just to get to the mobs. This normally wouldn't be a problem until these players use this technique over and over, taking pieces from zones which are some of the better rewards for the zone, leaving the groups that go to do the zone later out in the cold. It's also possible to lure rareloads into rarely done areas, thereby 'hiding' them until you can gather a group of sufficient force to do them later.

I'm not saying either is necessarily a bad thing, until it gets to the point where some of the main reasons for doing a zone are already picked out, reducing the reward for effort for that zone for a zoning group, which isn't a good thing when so many people want to go zoning in order to have a chance at winning that certain piece. When this happens on a regular basis while those skilled players use their techniques to make sure all their friends and the alts of their friends have that item, or continue to get the item for purposes of trade, it can turn into a bad thing.

Just a guess.

*blush*

btw luring rareloads to less obvious sections of the zoning to only kill them later w/ a group is illegal. Everything Ashiwi has said happens. Galkar you would be surprised how much stuff ISN'T downgraded and is clearly wrong, but players still do it and the immortals still a) discuss how to downgrade or b) don't do anything.

[Galkar]

Points well taken. Sheverash, I was stating only what some on the outside like myself may see when I as a player, even though i've been here 7 yrs now, am just now getting into what playing at higher levels is all about. If you took this as a shot, well sorry, it wasn't. I was merely looking for info to clarify the things I see on the bbs and what I hear people say, help me understand why it is that things are done in certain ways. I'm sure I probably came across fairly blunt, but I got a response or two that helped.

To be honest, I'm suprised that the responses this post has gotten so far have been relativly mature, Thank you, heh.

[Delmair Aamoren]

Just my $.02:

Regarding the zone change/downgrade issue. It is absolutely correct, that there are skill/spell combinations that area writers either a) don't see, or notice, or b) aren't implimented at the time their zone is created and aren't later thought of. These sometimes lead to being able to "twink" a mob or a zone. I see changes/adaptations to these situations as a reward
to the person who found it. They got to do the item/quest/mob/zone a bit easier than maybe it was intended to be, and it will now be changed for future people/groups that come to the zone making it a bit more difficult to obtain whatever it was you obtained for being intelligent about it. Now there IS a perfectly legitimate (in my opinion) reason for these coding changes. The mobs, since they don't have intelligence nor the capacity to change things for themselves, occasionally need a boost or a change. Maybe they caught on to the tactic that was being used, etc. I don't like seeing player skills downed to fix these problems, but fixing the zones so the skill/spell combination or tactic used no longer works gets basically the same result in many instances. It is my opinion that the sneak/hide ability of rogues was SEVERELY affected when illusionists were at their peak. Not only could they sneak deep into enemy territory, but they could provide a mode of transportation for the entire group to get to their location. This ability alone would be enough to sway me to take an illusionist over a rogue in a group. As it stands, the only reason you NEED a rogue on this mud currently is to pick locks. That is their only real niche. Yes they can fill in for an illusionist when one isn't available. And even their lockpicking skill has been undermined by tactical teleport spell usage. I just see the rogue class as one being completely bent over and screwed by the illusionist. If i had it my way, there would be NO sneak gear. Sure, chameleon type spells should help a mage hide, and hopefully live. And things like mislead that make you !trackable, and sequester that make you !summon are powerful, i see them as a "perk" as opposed to out of balance. I also liked the massmorph spell, making an entire group safe from mob attacks for a duration where they can mem/heal etc. Overall, even without the sneak/hide abilities of an illusionist, they would have a niche. Lowering mobs MR, tendrils for dmg, fold for transportation in a zone/assisting a TON in ghetto welling, sequester, massmorph, among many other benefits to a group. Overall, i'd say they are one of the more versatile classes on the mud, and are very valuable in a group. Anyone who sees otherwise probbably isn't looking at the big picture.

[Tasan]

Rogues are a subclass, and as such aren't "needed" in most zones. So are a lot of other classes. Why talk about the inequities placed upon them by certain situations and not cover every other classes problems?

The changes were made, and we'll live with them. Changing the news to be a little more obvious in some situations would be a generally good idea for keeping players at bay. Finding out something changed without ever being warned about it is getting a little old.

3/06/05 - Gimme and S! Gimme a C! Gimme a T!
- Something somewhere changed.
- A weapon changed.
- Mobs are "smarter" now.
- Ambiguously vague news archived to some file.

:roll:

T

[Dalar]

Tasan for FORGER ADMIN!

[Shevarash]

Erm, ok. That kind of vagueness is generally limited to new or modified procs, on purpose. We like to surprise you :)

[Dalar]

Erm, ok. That kind of vagueness is generally limited to new or modified procs, on purpose. We like to surprise you :)

Would be lovely if area makers did this too. Like when a quest is changed or a mob that didn't track tracks now

[Ragorn]

Your point is flawed, primarily because it just isn't true. I take downgrades of any kind very seriously. Most ideas for downgrading are rejected. Those that do slip through get in because we feel they are neccessary to maintain game balance.

I could explain it further, but that's the general idea right there. Also, you may want to read this:

http://kor.sojourn3.org:8080/phpBB2/vie ... hp?t=10802

I would also suggest this for reading:

http://shell4.bayarea.net/~tenarius/mudwimping.html

I don't agree with everything stated in this article, not by a long shot. The style of MUD administration he recommends will invariably lead to an arms-race atmosphere, where player and mob power spirals endlessly upward, out of control. So far, Sojourn has been able to avoid the slippery slope, but you'll notice the general opinion of the last two years indicates that the skill and innovation is being methodically removed from the mud, in favor of 15-man well-balanced-group spank runs.

Not playing here at this time, I can't/won't/don't comment on the balance of high level play. But I have a question: If Lilithelle hadn't demonstrated the power of PWB in scorps, would PWB have been downgraded?

If the answer is no, then I don't support nerfing it, for the reasons given by Dlur about making changes that are designed to thwart a single-digit percentage of the mud population.

[old depok]

I am waiting for lili to roll up a bard so that they can get downgraded as well :>)

Then the ultimate challenge for her...

RANGERS!

[Dlur]

I've read that article, and as Ragorn states some of it is true, but overall you don't want to go down the upward spiral with game design either.

Raph Koster also have several good articles on his website about MUD game design. They can be found here: http://www.legendmud.org/raph/gaming/index.html under the Essays and Laws headings.

There is an entire mailing list located at http://www.kanga.nu dedicated to the high end of MUD and MPORG design that can be found here: https://www.kanga.nu/lists/listinfo/mud-dev/

Some noteable laws from Koster's site:

Hans Henrik Staerfeldt's Law of Player/Admin Relations: The amount of whining players do is positively proportional to how much you pamper them.
Many players whine if they see any kind of bonus in it for them. It will simply be another way for them to achieve their goals. As an admin you hold the key to many of the goals that they have concerning the virtual environment you control. If you do not pamper the players and let them know that whining will not help them, the whining will subside.

Hal Black's Elaboration
The more responsive an admin is to user feedback of a given type, the more of that type the admin will get. Specifically, as an admin implements features from user suggestions, the more ideas for features will be submitted. Likewise, the more an admin coddles whiners, the more whining will ensue.

and

Rewarding players
It is not possible to run a scenario or award player actions without other players crying favoritism.

Rewards
The longer your game runs, the less often you get kudos for your efforts.

and most importantly relating to this particular topic:

Darklock's First Law
Cheating is an apparently advantageous violation of player assumptions about the game. When those assumptions are satisfied, all apparently advantageous methods are fair. When they are violated, no apparently advantageous methods are fair. "Using exterior means to influence the play of a game is not necessarily cheating. It is only cheating if it violates the assumptions of other players *and* provides an advantage. When a player expects that gaining levels in a game takes a long period of time, he will call any method of gaining them rapidly "cheating" -- even if it is an intentional feature of the game. When he expects that gaining levels is a rapid process, however, he will not think the people gaining them slowly are cheating... because that is not an apparently advantageous situation. It does not matter whether this actually *is* an advantageous situation, only whether it *appears* advantageous."

Corollary to Darklock's First Law
A bug is an apparently *disadvantageous* violation of player assumptions about the game. "This may be viewed as a specific application of Dundee's Law, "Fighting the battle for nomenclature with your players is a futile act. Whatever they want to call things is what they will be called." It does not matter whether "cheating" or a "bug" was an intentional part of the game design; it only matters whether the players *assumed* they were intentional."

Darklock's Second Law
Any violation of player assumptions is bad. "This follows from the first law because allowing violation of player assumptions is -- pathologically -- a unilateral "license to cheat". When you license any player to violate the assumptions of others, you imply a right for ALL players to violate the assumptions of others, and they will attempt to do so in an apparently advantageous fashion. This turns your playerbase into a society of cheaters, under the umbrella of truths we hold to be self-evident. (Which is, of course, a "slippery slope" argument. It does not logically follow that *any* such playerbase MUST degenerate into a society of cheaters; only that human nature and psychology make some degree of such degeneration likely. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.)"

and also a message to imm(s)who seem to stop at nothing to keep the players from having any fun.

J C Lawrence on Utopias
Don't strive for perfection, strive for expressive fertility. You can't create utopia, and if you did nobody would want to live there.

There's a wealth of information relating to this stuff out there. And although oft times Sojourn is mentioned in some of this information as a pioneer in the online gaming world due to a couple of significant factors, that doesn't mean that Sojourn is still the best or will always be the best. If the immortals continue to strive towards the aforementioned vision of their ideal balance of exactly 15 man groups using brute force and numerous group spanks to achieve any goal as percieved by the players, then the majority of the players who do not desire that will feel alienated and seek higher ground. Let us not forget:

Hanarra's Laws


Over time, your playerbase will come to be the group of people who most enjoy the style of play that your world offers. The others will eventually move to another game.
It is very hard to attract players of different gaming styles after the playerbase has been established. Any changes to promote different styles of play almost always conflict with the established desires of the current playerbase.
The ultimate goal of a virtual world is to create a place where people of all styles of play can contribute to the world in a manner that makes the game more satisfying for everyone.
The new players who enter the world for the first time are the best critics of it.
The opinions of those who leave are the hardest to obtain, but give the best indication of what changes need to be made to reach that ultimate goal.

So basically players of Sojourn have come to expect a certain type of play, where innovation and original thinking allow for not necesarily better, but generally faster rewards. Whether the immortals think so or not Risk = Reward. This is a fact. It cannot be disputed, no matter how high and mighty you think you are for being a member of the Soj team. If that formula doesn't work out, players will not be happy.

If Risk > Reward then players will not seek either the risk or the reward, and will migrate to other things. If Risk = Reward, then everyone is happy. If Risk < Reward then everyone will seek that particular reward because it is the path of least resistance. Risk can be measured most accurately as being quanities of time loss, experience loss, equipment loss, and use of resources.

So basically creative thinking and use of innovative strategy allows certain players to turn Risk = Reward into Risk ~= Reward. I say this because although their creative strategies allow them to take less time in directly gaining the reward, it also generally looses them more time at a later point due to experience loss(believe it or not you die a lot more while "twinking", resource loss(from quaffing potions and using magical items that they wouldn't need if they were using a straight up 15 man group). So even though "twinking" can change the proportions of the afformentioned values of Risk, it generally doesn't increase or decrease the overall value of Risk, if anything it makes the Risk value higher than before. It doesn't generally change the value of the Reward value either except that there may be less people with which to split the Reward amongst.

Think of the instance of Lilithelle "twinking" manscorps with PWB. Sure she was able to do this single-handedly (from what I saw). This increases the value of the Reward (if she even got any reward from it other than exp, as I didn't see her soloing any seers or the Manscorpion King or anything else that holds a true reward of equipment). This strategy of PWBing numerous mobs is also extremely time consuming. Lil was at this for 12 hours at least. Think of the time investment here. Also think of how many times she died while doing this, I'm guessing at least 4 times if not more, which means lost experience which means more lost time. She probably used some resources here as well, potions and the like. So the Risk inherent in this activity is dramitically increased over the Risk of a 15 man group doing this same thing, as they wouldn't need to PWB all these < level 50 mobs in order to sneak past. They could just systematically decimate the mobs with few if any deaths and propotionally a significantly less investment in time (~2 hours with a group for the whole zone vs 12 hours to just get into the main part of the zone solo).

So really, I wonder why the imms do have a problem with "twinking" in the first place. By my calculations, the Risk inherent in "twinking" is so much greater than using their ideal group of 15 persons for most of these smaller activities. The time investment, which for an aging player base is a HUGE factor in the Risk value, doesn't even coorelate from "twinking" to "brute-forcing", at least it doesn't scale well that I've seen.

The only instance I can see where "twinking" has an inherently lesser time factor relative in its Risk value for any zone is when a Rogue, Illusionist, Gray Elf, Ranger, Bard, or whatever sneaks though a zone and folds the group in, past the part of the zone that is designed by the zone creator to waste time and resources, and holds little or no reward, otherwise known as the "grid". In this instance I can see where there is a significant problem with the entire Risk = Reward formula, as Risk is actually decreased.

I feel that this is why the changes to Illusionists were made and will stay made, despite being unpopular amongst some players. I also feel that this is why the change to PWB was quickly reverted to its original form, and hopefully more thought will be involved as to whether PWB actually is a problem, or if letting people waste 12 hours of their time to achieve no reward is just fine before any future changes to it are made.

[Dlur]

I am waiting for lili to roll up a bard so that they can get downgraded as well :>)

Then the ultimate challenge for her...

RANGERS!

Downgrading anything because of one or two player's ability to find and utilize flaws in the initial design of any feature isn't necessary, because the vast majority of the population in a virtual world will not be capable of utilizing those same flaws to any gain.

The imms can call this stuff "bugs" all they want, but the players will always know that they are design flaws, because no matter what, the nomenclature used by players will prevail in any online world.

Bugs cause crashes and core dumps. Design flaws and improper calculations of player vs NPC power and time sinks and Risk = Reward values cause balance problems.

[Verarb]

Gimme back hide! Gimme back sunray! Gimme back my damage!
ill take an arti instead tho.

PS. Please?
:?

This isnt a criticism, just spit in the ocean.

PPS wth happened to the demmed spellchk[/code]

[Snurgt]

I would also suggest this for reading:

http://shell4.bayarea.net/~tenarius/mudwimping.html

The funny thing is, I mudded with the author of that article on the same mud in question for a bunch of years before coming to soj.

Of all the myriad of muds in all the world, who woulda thought! What a small mud world!

Hibbidy