Corpse Glamor

[Todrael]

This spell should be Necromancer/Lich only, and should not be an "illusion."

Corpse weight and size do not change due to an illusion. They might make you think you can drag it, but you still wouldn't be able to.

Illusionists are already a powerful CR class. The only reason I can see for adding this to their spell list is to make up for the whining that's generated by the changes to camouflage. I am deeply offended by other classes entering into what is rightfully My domain, that of the dead. Shaman can have their spirit crap. Give me the bodies.

I haven't posted on this board in more than.. 3 months now. I haven't read it in about that time, either. I just didn't care. I try not to care. But this, this is too much to pass up. This is a slap to the face.

I've steadily seen every ability that I have that is even semi-unique being stripped away and given to other classes. The cry for 'extra' effects on spells has made all of them trivial in comparison to when they were powerful. It's a right, now, instead of a priveledge. What's the point?

Maybe I should just try to stop caring again.

[Shevarash]

It's a phantasm. :)

I didn't give any of your abilities away, I gave a brand new one to two classes, both of whom it makes sense for.

It's a good thing I stopped caring about petulant whining over my hard work years ago too, otherwise nothing would get done. Enjoy :)

[Lilithelle]

They're throwing illusionists a bone, don't be that way!

[Gyrx]

They're throwing illusionists a bone, don't be that way!

Illusionts don't need a bone! I hate zoning !illus just as much as no resser or no scaler.

I have no idea why goodies think illus suck?!? :shock:

[Dalar]

lili said something about throwing illu a bone. necros have lots of those. get it!

[Ragorn]

I'm completely baffled how an illusion can make something lighter or easier to move. Does that mean I can cast corpse glamor on myself and my load should change to What Load? because I think I'm buff?

You should make the illusionist version make the player THINK they're dragging the corpse, when in reality they're not :)

[old depok]

What you failed to see was that when an Illusionist casts corpse glamor there is a second part of the illusion. While your eyes are fixated on his or her left hand (which is weaving the spell) his/her right hand is stripping the corpse and putting all the EQ in his/her bag.

Thus not only the illusion of being lighter but, in fact, the corpse being lighter!

Now how you get your eq back is not as easy.

Tod is just bitter because glamor makes the corpses glow in a different light than liches embalm!

[Shevarash]

"Though most illusions create only the appearance of reality, some high-level spells tap extradimensional forces to create illusions with physical substance, capable of inflicting damage and otherwise intereacting with the real world."

-- Complete Wizards Handbook, 2nd Edition

[Ashiwi]

And just how does an illusional bolt cause real damage? If the brain believes it enough, it makes it real. That's the basis of illusion in D&D, and if the illusionist can weave an illusion that the corpse is light enough to drag, then the person who believes it might very well be able to drag it.

[Nekler BlazingWolf]

So.. only dorfs, barbs, trolls, and ogres can drag corpse glimmered corpses, right?
All other races shouldn't be able to be fooled by the illusion cause they are so smart and all, hehe.

[Snurgt]

I love when people apply real life physics to justify things on a mud where we cast magical spells, have weapons that shoot magic, etc, etc.

So funny!

[Shevarash]

No no, still not clear I see :)

The spell is using extradimensional forces to physically change the corpse for a period of time.

Another example of this kind of illusion would be...Wraithform.

[Birile]

I dunno, I'm kinda with Todrael on this one. I can see the rationale for giving it to illusies being that you're calling it an illusion but the dead really is the realm of the necro/lich (and to an extent, the cleric). In a game where we're barraged with "we're doing it for game balance" this doesn't really make sense to give to an illusionist. I think it's definitely a spell we need and I suppose you had to figure out who to give it to but I don't think anyone would have raised a ruckus if you had just given it to necros/liches.

[Shevarash]

The dead are the realm of the necromancer, illusions are the realm of the...illusionist. When those realms collide, hey, they both get a new spell.

How is this bad again? :)

[Birile]

How is this bad again? :)

Bards don't have it.

And do you have to call it an illusion? Couldn't it just as easily be an enchantment? Or a manipulation of the dead just like the necro pet spells?

[Dlur]

If you're having problems understanding why illusionists got this spell see:

Shevarash: It's a phantasm.

I didn't give any of your abilities away, I gave a brand new one to two classes, both of whom it makes sense for.

It's a good thing I stopped caring about petulant whining over my hard work years ago too, otherwise nothing would get done. Enjoy

It's not an illusion, it's a phantasm, which can be defined as Shevy also quoted as being a high level illusion (the school of magic) that pulls upon extradimensional forces to alter the reality of the present world. This isn't something that David Copperfield did. The great wall of China isn't being hidden from your view. A rabbit is not being pulled from a hat. This isn't a David Blaine card trick. This isn't the real world. THERE IS NO SPOON!

Thank you, please drive through.

[Delmair Aamoren]

The dead are the realm of the necromancer, illusions are the realm of the...illusionist. When those realms collide, hey, they both get a new spell.

Anyone else hear powerman 5000 "when worlds collide" ?

If we are holding true to DND here, there are a couple spells in the illusionist sphere called "ephemeral bolt" which does illusory dmg.

At a higher level there is "true ephemeral bolt" which is illusion, but does real dmg so attempts to disbelieve it fail.

Now, i agree totally with todd, merely for the fact illusionists already had plenty to make them useful enough, and that corpses and that of the dead should belong to necromancers, but shevy isn't wrong either with defining illusion as being able to affect reality through a more "real" means.

just my $.02

[Kifle]

The dead are the realm of the necromancer, illusions are the realm of the...illusionist. When those realms collide, hey, they both get a new spell.

Now, i agree totally with todd, merely for the fact illusionists already had plenty to make them useful enough...

and liches dont have enough to make them useful? that arguent becomes moot when you look at the diversity of a lich. Its a nice spell, who cares if they both get it. I certainly will not group with somebody for the simple fact that they have or don't have this spell...its not that damn important.

[Llaaldara]

Thanks for the new spell Shevy! :mrgreen:

I like it a lot! Makes some impossible CR's now possible! I especially like the dark purple ansi for the glow. :)

I guess I really don't understand how it's an illusion spell thingie, but I don't mind and not gonna try and figure it out. Why? Because Illusionists often find themselves as group spank CR class, right next to Rogue. I don't see how helping them do this job hurts the mud. :?

Perhaps to compromise, the spell could have a side effect if Lich casts it? That is to make the corpse physically lighter? Maybe it's throwing a bone to Lich players, but I dunno.. seems kinda appropriate I guess? Maybe? :?

I think it's great your quoting D&D stuffs! Hey remember this one "...liches are often adept illusionists.." So can we get Shadowwalk? :roll:

How about fly spell? Mmm 3 pets spelling up a group so a chanter doesn't have to? Maybe even duration could be a little lower then how long enchanters lasts? :wink:


No I"m not trying to sneak in some upgrades or anything! :roll: -whistle-

-LL

[Yayaril]

8)

Necro/lich already have the advantage with corpse glamor in the fact that they can boss 2-3 pets around to cast it over and over again whereas the illusionist has to cast it and then remem. It casts really fast, so a lich/necro can have an entire spanks worth of corpses glamored before an illusionist can even cast it 5 times. Then the illusionist has to memorize and the necro/lich just starts dragging. Heck, the necro/lich can then order his wraithform type pets to drag the corpses, since it allows them to. I was putting it to good use in zone yesterday to have my pets tote around some spare corpses that I'd never be able to keep with me due to running out of mvs. This spell kicks ass!

[Verarb]

I dont understand how it sucks you get something new just cuz someone else gets it too.

[old depok]

A new skill for necro's/liches was also added with the spell...

Glamor envy

It is apparant that Tod's was set to Master *poke*

[Treladian]

>>A new skill for necro's/liches was also added with the spell...

Glamor envy

It is apparant that Tod's was set to Master *poke*<<

Does this mean that Tod was wearing a pink wig, woman's clothing, and singing bad 80's music?

[old depok]

draw your own conclusions.

[Kifle]

>>A new skill for necro's/liches was also added with the spell...

Glamor envy

It is apparant that Tod's was set to Master *poke*<<

Does this mean that Tod was wearing a pink wig, woman's clothing, and singing bad 80's music?

except for the 80's musice, I can't find anything wrong with this.

[Ashiwi]

except for the 80's musice, I can't find anything wrong with this.

I can't find anything wrong with this for Kifle, either. The visual of the halfling in the pink shock wig is just too tantalizing.

[Todrael]

I figured out why I dislike this spell's theme so much.

If they can make the 'illusion' that a corpse is less heavy, why can't they make the 'illusion' that anything is less heavy? Why not that massive chest, or your backpack, or heck, even a pile of meat (food). That's all a corpse is, anyways. There's nothing to prevent this spell's theme from being applied to everything under the sun. This is why it's always seemed wrong, and I think it should be a necro/lich only spell, not hidden behind the theme of being an 'illusion' so another class can have it.

[Llaaldara]

I figured out why I dislike this spell's theme so much.

If they can make the 'illusion' that a corpse is less heavy, why can't they make the 'illusion' that anything is less heavy? Why not that massive chest, or your backpack, or heck, even a pile of meat (food). That's all a corpse is, anyways. There's nothing to prevent this spell's theme from being applied to everything under the sun. This is why it's always seemed wrong, and I think it should be a necro/lich only spell, not hidden behind the theme of being an 'illusion' so another class can have it.

Something about "Glamor" that turns me off. Maybe it's that word that warrants the spell to be an illusion?

Maybe it's the name that puts you off so much Tod! :D What if we changed it??
What if it was called "Negative Devolution" and described as a spell that temporarily sends the weight aspect of an item into another plane (Negative material for lich/necro) it would make more sense? Kinda like how a bag of holding works but insead of making it's own pocket dimension, you're using the Negative Material Plane!

Yeah.. I'm glad we got it! :D
Yeah.. I wish we were the only ones who got it, cuz then we'd have a second class defining skill.

Ho Hum! :D

[Ragorn]

I figured out why I dislike this spell's theme so much.

If they can make the 'illusion' that a corpse is less heavy, why can't they make the 'illusion' that anything is less heavy? Why not that massive chest, or your backpack, or heck, even a pile of meat (food). That's all a corpse is, anyways. There's nothing to prevent this spell's theme from being applied to everything under the sun. This is why it's always seemed wrong, and I think it should be a necro/lich only spell, not hidden behind the theme of being an 'illusion' so another class can have it.

I think I said basically the same thing, albeit more sarcastically, about 3 pages up on the thread.

[Todrael]

I think I said basically the same thing, albeit more sarcastically, about 3 pages up on the thread.

Sorry, I guess I didn't read that post. It's still what's inherently wrong with this spell, and why it should be changed in some way, even if it's not to the way I want.

[Ionari]

What you failed to see was that when an Illusionist casts corpse glamor there is a second part of the illusion.

While your eyes are fixated on his or her left hand (which is weaving the spell) his/her right hand is stripping the corpse and putting all the EQ in his/her bag.

Thus not only the illusion of being lighter but, in fact, the corpse being lighter!

Bwahahahaha!

[amolol]

ok first i dont see what the rucuss is but then again i dont play illus or necro/lich in refrence to liches getting somthing coll new lich spell
(sp)
***!!!@@@$$$%%% RESSURECT%%%$$$@@@!!!***

the dead is ther realm they should be able to give a dead body life the same way clerics do this will also give thos evils a reason to shutup about lack of ressers...not that it will make a big difference cause it wont happen but was worth a try

[Shevarash]

It only works on corpses because that's what the spell does. It's magic, it doesn't have to make sense. We could nitpick just about every spell there is if so inclined.

Illusionists and Necros both get the spell because it's not a class definiing spell by any means - it's a handy utility spell that made sense for both classes to have. Like many other spells, such as...haste, globe, stoneskin, etc etc.

I really don't understand the complaint about it. :)

[Vahok]

It only works on corpses because that's what the spell does. It's magic, it doesn't have to make sense. We could nitpick just about every spell there is if so inclined.

Illusionists and Necros both get the spell because it's not a class definiing spell by any means - it's a handy utility spell that made sense for both classes to have. Like many other spells, such as...haste, globe, stoneskin, etc etc.

I really don't understand the complaint about it. :)

Totally agree...what's next? Since preserving a corpse is kinda, um well..evil and lich-like, should we take preserve from good priests?

(And yes, I'm being sarcastic)

[Todrael]

Wow, that's totally not what I was trying to say. Let me give some examples, maybe that will help clarify.

1) Preserve. How is preserving 'evil and lich-like'? There are plenty of embalmers in the real world. In fact, it's customary to embalm a body, so it can be presented to loved ones in a state that isn't gruesome to behold. Not only that, there are hundreds of thousands of different types of preservatives used in a ton of food all over the world, to keep it from going bad two days after it's made.

2) Beltyn's burning blood. It burns things blood, says so right in the name. Therefore, it doesn't work on things that don't have blood. Simple little equation.

3) Heal. It regenerates hitpoints on whatever it's cast at, thus, it can only be cast at things that have.. hitpoints.

4) Heal Undead. Probably the closest of anything to 'corpse glamor'. It only heals undead, since that's part of the title. That's 'just the way it works'. The only thing keeping it from being the exact same, for targeting purposes, as corpse glamor, is that it is actually a more limited version of an existing spell, Heal.

I protest the argument that "It's magic, it doesn't have to make sense." This is not only a major cop-out, it's completely false. Things that don't make sense are changed. If there was a cold spell that hasted mobs, would that make sense? It's magic, therefore it's possible. But no, inherently every spell must make some form of sense. I challenge you to find spells that go flat in the face of 'sense'. Not only that, but Shev was using arguments that 'made sense' earlier in this very thread about why the spell works the way it does. 'Making sense' is what it's all about.

I'll repeat: I don't really care if the spell is removed from Illusionists or not. My goal is not to harm another class, or 'keep all the power for myself', whatever. Not now that I've figured out why I dislike the spell. I couldn't place my finger on it until I came back and reread the spell description, and the thread about it. Now that I know that it's because the spell doesn't make sense, I am able to provide a coherent, rational argument about why it should be changed.

Other ways it might be changed to 'make more sense':
1) Keep it as an illusion, but allow it to be cast at any body, living or dead. When cast on the living, it gives a similar effect to 'fly'. When cast on the dead, it allows the corpse to be dragged easily. Rename it to 'I Think I Can', or whatever. Explanation: it works on the mind of the target more than the mind of those around it. Even dead bodies have brains, and since they're dead, they'll be really easy to trick. I'm just throwing out ideas here. Reasons tricking a dead body works: people can pretend to be dead (feign death makes a 'corpse'), dead can walk around (hello lich/undead), dead can come back to life (resurrect).

2) Find some way of explaning why it only works on corpses instead of everything else, other than 'it's magic'. If there were any other spell in precedence that had a similar effect, it would make much more sense as a 'target-changed' version.

Anybody else have constructive, thoughtful ideas on how it might make more sense?

[Shevarash]

I still don't understand, Tod.

It's a highly specialized spell. It's designed to work on corpses. Much like preserve works on corpses, and fly works on living beings. Sure, there could be a variant of the spell that worked on other things - such as characters, or bags - but that would be a *different* spell. Most spells in both AD&D and on the MUD are specialized like this, and I just don't understand why you perceive this particular spell as a problem.

The basic principle, I believe, is that specialized spells trade versatility for effectiveness. In other words, a general 'weight glamor' spell that could be cast on anything would be far less effective than a spell specially designed to interact with a corpse.

Corpse Glamor is a highly specialized spell that uses a combination of the illusion and necromancy schools of magic to achieve the maximum affect on a single target type.

[rylan]

I think a idea behind corpse glamor is that its not just your 'run of the mill illusion', but a quasi-real effect. For example, highly skilled illusionists can create more powerful (both deadly and believable) illusionists because they weave material from the ethereal plane into their mind tricks, making it more difficult to disbelieve. Phantasmal Tendrils for example are an illusion strengthened by quasi-real matter. My point is that the corpse is actually being altered somewhat by a combination of necromantic arts and quasi-real illusion, and not because its 'just magic'. You can create an illusion that something is floating, but it isn't real... to actually _make_ it float or be lighter, the effect needs to be quasi-real. Does that make any sense or was I just rambling? :)

[Vahok]

My only point Tod was that we can pick apart any spell to death if we cared to. Corpse glamour is a handy utility spell, not defining, so not a big deal.

(And I hope to God when I die my family doesn't preserve my corpse for 4 weeks, so some sick lich raises me! 8) )