Gimme some lovin' (Bards)

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Birile
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Gimme some lovin' (Bards)

Postby Birile » Tue Apr 08, 2003 4:26 pm

Hey Shev,

I know you've been doin' a LOT of stuff lately, changing skills here and there and what not but... well, what about some bard lovin'? Seems I recall a claim that bards were gonna get a couple of new songs--this was some months ago. I ain't heard nothin'! Don't get me wrong, I'm a patient guy but... Iyachtu did a great job with the revamp last year and some bugs were fixed here and there in the month or so after. Those of us bards who are committed to the class have offered TONS of suggestions and barely a response seems to have been given back. I'm not saying things aren't happening behind the scenes but would it be possible to stir up an update of things being worked on every now and then? Or if the ball HAS been dropped (and stomped on) would it be possible to find someone to pick it back up and dust it off?

Don't get me wrong, I think bards rock (especially that Mightymouth, the girls just swoon :P ). But we need a lot of refining! I know a lot of people who love the class and have high-level bards but just find themselves too useless to spend time playing them. I mean, really--one's even resorted to playing an Elementalist! (just kidding, I have an Elementalist myself and they really DO pwn)

I think if you took a poll you would find a lot of players who would say "Why bother?" when asked about bards.

Yeah, I'm whining, so what? :) I've been playing a bard for a year and all the while waiting on the changes/fixes that've been mentioned since the revamp last summer!
Last edited by Birile on Mon May 12, 2003 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Snurgt » Tue Apr 08, 2003 6:37 pm

Yeah im with Birile!

I love bards but right now they are pretty much
!zone. I've seen some famous bards that have played bard for like 5+ years, playing another class cuz they just couldnt take it anymore.

Give some love to the bards! It wont take much, just throw em a bone! Pour some in mah hand!

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Postby Shevarash » Tue Apr 08, 2003 6:57 pm

Well, Iyachtu has been busy with the RL-Beast lately, but perhaps there's some things another coder or I could do to help out until he gets back.

So...post some suggestions or something :)
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
Birile
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Postby Birile » Tue Apr 08, 2003 7:22 pm

Oh my god I'm so there when my 3:00 break comes!
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Postby Snurgt » Tue Apr 08, 2003 7:23 pm

Woooo!

I think the two new songs to be put in were:

1) Song of decreased ress effect duration

2) Some sort of song that made melee chars proc like elemental damage or something?

I cant remember, there was a huge thread of suggestions on the old bbs, now its all gone!

Ill think of some, im sure the other current bards have plenty.

Thanks for askin for input Shev!

Hibbideh
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Postby Dlur » Tue Apr 08, 2003 7:34 pm

Snurgt wrote:Woooo!

I think the two new songs to be put in were:

1) Song of decreased ress effect duration

2) Some sort of song that made melee chars proc like elemental damage or something?

I cant remember, there was a huge thread of suggestions on the old bbs, now its all gone!

Ill think of some, im sure the other current bards have plenty.

Thanks for askin for input Shev!

Hibbideh


My suggestion, and I'm supprised Hibbedeh didn't think of this, would be Song of Ghettoness.

Song of Ghettoness would be a targetted song that would cause those affected to seek out their closest corner market and buy a 40 in a paper sack and return to their porch. They would also spend all their money on lowrider horses with lots of gold trim and also on golden caps for their teeth.

The net effect is that the mobs stop fighting you and after a while start shooting one another, after spending all their money on gold accessories.

3nj0y!

PS I did have some real suggestions somewhere at one time, but this struck the tip of my fingers for now.
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Postby Snurgt » Tue Apr 08, 2003 7:54 pm

I think there were some suggestions:

1) Song to stop sounds of battle from attracting guards/other mobs
2) Luring song, like a sirens song
3) Song of forgetfulness - make mobs forget they aggro to ppl
4) Song to make mobs flee
5) Maybe a song of random harmful procs like blind, slow, ray, etc

Cant remember any others.

Oh yeah, and Dlur's suggestion is the pwn. Buy my caps!

Hibbideh is here singing that damn rap music, inspiring you to violence!
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Postby Birile » Tue Apr 08, 2003 9:12 pm

The songs Snurgt mentioned in his first post (song of rejuvenation, which was meant to decrease res fx time and also preserve all corpses in the room and the song that caused elemental damage to be added to melee attacks) were the ones Iyachtu said he was going to add to bards. Dunno where the old post is, though. :(

The songs Snurgt mentioned in his second post are really good ideas. Along with those songs, I would add Song of Charming and Song of Sleeping/Tranquility (which kinda sounds along the same lines as the Song of Forgetfulness). Why Song of Charming? Mainly for RP purposes and to boost bard egos. We should have groupies and Thanuk just doesn't cut it anymore. Neither does Arilin. But honestly, bards are one of the penultimate RP classes, give us an RP song. And if you MUST make the song useful, let us charm medium-to-large mobs with it. Song of Sleeping/Tranquility, basically for the same reasons as a Song of Forgetfulness. To make mobs stop attacking in a room/stop assisting, etc. I would gladly give up the songs Iyachtu had in the pike (Rejuvenation/Elemental Damage) for the spells Snurgt mentioned. They make more sense for a bard to have, in my eyes.

What about adding procs to more songs? We already have the ability to group haste with Song of Offensive Harmony, room slow with Song of Defensive Disruption and a nifty proc on Song of Travel if we sing it long enough. Just some thoughts off the cuff: Song of Protection proccing stoneskin? Or even phantom armor? Stoneskin would, obviously, be better and much more useful. To keep it from being overpowered, make it so it wouldn't have any effect on someone already stoned (so if I get the song to proc on two consecutive turns, those people who are stoned by the first proc and still have a stoneskin that hasn't fallen will not be stoned or have any sort of timer reset--they just wouldn't be affected). What about Song of Healing? Add a double heal, full heal or half-vit proc to it. Kinda powerful to add this kind of proc so make it more difficult to proc. I don't know what the difference is between the way the offensive harmony and defensive disruption songs proc and the way the travel song procs but Song of Healing--if it had a proc--should be more along the lines of the way the travel song procs. Song of Miscast Magic: have it proc feeblemind or silence. As it is, it's much too dangerous to count on this song to stop a caster from casting and I don't know many bards--if any--who would choose it over Sorcery, Defensive Harmony or Healing. Kinda sh*tty for being such a high-level song. If such a proc seems too uber, then make the mobs check a save against it and the ones who successfully save aren't affected. Just the first ones to come to mind...

Some songs need to be, in my eyes, reworked/rethought. Oh my god do something about Song of Harming. What is the point? Up the amount of harm, add a proc, do something! It's just way too weak as it is. As things stand now, Song of Protection is rather useless, too, although I know it raises our saves slightly, which technically helps out in a boatload of situations. But I'll sing the Top Three (Sorcery, Healing, Defensive Disruption) over Protection in EVERY situation Protection is helpful. Of course, it IS a level 1 song and it can come in handy for a lowbie by decreasing ac. But Song of Regeneration is much more popular to use at level 1 than Protection. Please move Song of Renewal down to Level 11. It should by no means be a level 1 song but level 21 is much too high. Bards are constantly stuttering at the lower levels, thus using their mana. They need this song before level 21. Hell, put it at level 16 if level 11 sounds too low. That'd still be better than level 21.

Accompany: The current accompaniment system allows one and only one bard/bchanter to accompany another in a group. The current accompaniment system also gives the accompanist the possibility of picking up the lead's song if the lead stops singing for whatever reason. I find this to be a little dangerous, outweighing whatever benefit automatically picking up the song may have. If I am the lead in a group and I'm singing Sorcery but see the group dying quickly and want to stop singing that song and begin, say, Healing I have to hope that the other bard doesn't pick up my verse so I can begin singing another song. Since no two bards can sing at the same time in the same room I cannot sing Healing if my accompanist is now singing Sorcery. While my group heal isn't that amazing, it has helped save a group from spankage on more than one occasion. I don't want to have to worry about making sure my accompanist sees that I stopped singing in the middle of battle spam so I can pick up another song once my song lag is over. I don't think anyone would complain if the accompanist was automatically halted when the lead stops singing a song. And bards everywhere would then be able to rest easily knowing their accompanist isn't singing when they try to sing something else. This can be fixed by the accompanist implementing a trigger that automatically halts the song if and when they pick up the verse but just taking it out altogether would be, I think, easier.

Quick Verse: Casters have a skill called Quick Chant. Why not have a similar skill for bards/bchanters called Quick Verse? It would work in much the same way as Quick Chant--a successful Quick Verse would cause bards to sing another verse of their song in, say, half the time it normally takes to sing a verse. If a mage can get off a spell by reciting it quickly, you would think a bard, whose whole livelihood is based around using their voice and singing words, would be masters of singing those words quickly as well. This would help with songs such as Song of Healing which are, at the moment, very weak compared to the spells they are meant to simulate (even for not being meant to simulate those spells fully). The chance to get off a Song of Healing verse in half the time it normally takes would be sweet.

I won't go into the idea of allowing two bards to sing in the same room at the same time because Iyachtu has already told me this would crash the game. :)

Bard/Bchanter Spells: Something needs to be done about the current system, in my opinion. I see three possible solutions (though implementing at least two of them would be best--all three would be too powerful I think):

1) Let Bards mem and Bchanters pray. The forced waiting for spells to be "replenished" is absolute torture at times. This would hardly make us overpowering, as the only amazing spell we have is Displace (bards)/Stoneskin (bchanters).

2) Give us more slots in the spell circles we have. We get two casts of our 10th circle spells every 24 minutes. Those two spells get used up REAL quick in a fight, even against a mob who cons "needle."

3) Give us more spell circles and more spells to go in those circles. And would it be so difficult to come up with a bard-only spell? With all of the new spells which have popped up in the past two weeks this shouldn't be too difficult.

I'm not looking for bards to be full-on mages. But I think at least one of the above suggestions should be implemented to at least make our casting abilities a little more useful. Maybe I'm missing something but all other part-time casters have better casting abilities than bards. Yeah, I know, no other class can sing, but each one of those part-time casting classes has their own unique feature as well. A combination of two of these suggestions would be best, I think (and I've thought about this a lot). But yeah, implementing all three would make us a little too good in the art of magic.

Our Rogue Skills: First off, I know bards/bchanters are NOT meant to be as powerful as rogues in the field of, well, roguery. I don't expect to be able to assassinate, garrote, etc. I also don't expect to do rogues' skills (the ones we DO have) as well as a Rogue. But the good majority of our Rogue skills are so low they are to the point of almost being useless. Backstab, in my opinion, while being maxed at a low level, is fine. Circle? Feh. Why bother? You can't circle while singing, only while accompanying, which rarely comes up as one bard in a zone group, let alone two, is an extreme rarity. I'll trade Circle for Steal, thank you very much. I don't understand why a class that is supposed to be so suave and cunningly debonaire (sp?) should not be able to steal. And why the hell can't we finnagle our way into seeing what's in a PC's or mob's inventory??? We are supposed to be persuasive!!! As for such skills as Dual Wield and Double Attack, they are set way too low for me to find them better than holding an instrument at ANY time I'm not fighting seriously easy mobs. Double Attack, I've been told by Iyachtu, is set too low for haste to affect us well enough to get another attack out of it when hasted. So at most I can hit 5x in a round as opposed to 4x when not hasted. Why bother? Raise our Double Attack/Dual Wield just enough for us to have the chance to hit 6x in a round. Then there is Sneak and Hide. At the current max we get for Sneak and Hide I will NEVER trust my ability enough to use these two skills ANY time they are ever needed. I know even Rogues fail these skills at times but again, like backstab, I'm astonished when I pull one off successfully. I've seen several posts claiming bards can solo because of our ability to sneak/hide. Um, no. Not that being truly able to sneak and hide would make us a soloable class anyway. But damn, how about making them truly usable skills?

Well, ya gave me the opportunity (THANK YOU), I took it! These are just my thoughts before seeing others' and considering them. You'll hear more from meh soon!
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Postby Snurgt » Tue Apr 08, 2003 9:24 pm

Birile pwns! I have to agree with everything he said.

One other idea for a song i remember was being thrown around:

1) The bard can sing for money from mobs. Like they sing well enuf, etc, mobs give them money that they have on hand. There can be downsides to it, like maybe the bard takes damage if he fails the song or somethin.

2) I really like Biriles idea of having the heal song have a chance to proc another heal or another 1/2 a heal on the group. Or maybe just a double heal on a certain number of ppl in the group. Or like Birile said a half a vit proc. Somethin like that.

Talk amongst yerselves.

Hibbideh
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Apr 08, 2003 9:58 pm

Snurgt wrote:1) The bard can sing for money from mobs. Like they sing well enuf, etc, mobs give them money that they have on hand. There can be downsides to it, like maybe the bard takes damage if he fails the song or somethin.


I think if they miserably fail the roll for this they should suffer a catastrophic loss of charisma, causing mobs to pelt them with a rain of tomatoes and rotten cabbage, resulting in an ongoing loss of hps until the angry mob disperses.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:11 am

I totally agree with the fact that bards need a little more. Some of biriles suggestions seem quite good! Of course, implimenting even 1/2 of the suggestions would make them a powerhouse. I see them as being a jack of all trades, but master of none. Except music.

Music should be their one true feat. Giving them some good songs to add to their cache would be a great start. As for the spells, i don't quite understand how the spell system for them works, but adding "their own" spells would be interesting, as they usually learn these spells from other magicians they cross, and don't have their own (jack of all, master of none). With this in mind, their melee skills shouldn't even compare to that of a rogue/warrior/ranger. The fact that their dual wield/double attack aren't as high as some other classes is perfectly alright as far as i'm concerned.

I would like to see them be able to peek into inventories much like rogues, and would also like to see "steal" implimented at a decent skill proficiency.

Anyway, just my $.02
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Postby Snurgt » Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:39 am

I'd also like to see the lag between switching songs, or singing/casting reduced, its hella long considering it takes extra time for the first verse to kick in as well.
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Postby Birile » Wed Apr 09, 2003 4:26 am

Snurgt wrote:I'd also like to see the lag between switching songs, or singing/casting reduced, its hella long considering it takes extra time for the first verse to kick in as well.


Dang it, I knew I forgot to mention something! Thanks mang!

I think the balance rationale for the lag was so songs simulated the time it took to cast spells. But as Snurgt mentioned, it takes time for a song's first verse to be sung that simulates the time it takes to cast a spell very well. This was also my rationale behind the Quick Verse. At present, bard verses are approximately the same amount of time it takes a mage to cast what, a circle 7 spell or so if they failed Quick Chant. QC offers mages the chance to cast a spell in decreased time but bards/bchanters still have to wait the normal time between verses no matter what.
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Postby old depok » Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:31 pm

I have a level 25 bard that I play off and on. I rolled a rogue after I got the bard to level 21 because the rogue skills for Bards suck. The main things that would make me level up the bard (which I rather enjoy playing actually) is increasing the sneak and hide skill and knowing that I would be useful in a zone group.

How about adding a proc on song of sorcery that would either group auto mem half (or some set number greater than 2) of the casters spells waiting to be mem'd/prayed or proc group time stop during spellups? Make it so the time stop proc can not happen when there is combat in the room.

I can see either of these two effects being a huge benefit to groups in zones that would not infringe on any other classes abilities. Increasing casters quick chant or meditate skill is great but it is mostly unnoticed by the group itself and the effect of it is hard to measure. Either of these two would be noticed (make sure the proc spells out what happened) and appreciated.

Any skill you add that reduced the time it took to do a zone would automatically insure that bards were considered for almost any zone group.

If your looking for a spell to add give them fly. Enchanters hate casting it and they are currently the only class to have that spell.

Keep in mind that if you implement a mem/pray system for bards you lose their effectiveness during mem/pray times as a singer unless they can do both at the same time.

I would think increasing the number of spells they get per circle or reducing the time between regeneration of the spells would be better.

I love Ashiwi's idea as well.

I would level my bard immediately if I thought he could be useful in a zone group or he could sneak and hide with reliability.
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Postby Snurgt » Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:50 pm

I went a little quote crazy, so be warned!

old depok wrote:How about adding a proc on song of sorcery that would either group auto mem half (or some set number greater than 2) of the casters spells waiting to be mem'd/prayed or proc group time stop during spellups? Make it so the time stop proc can not happen when there is combat in the room.


I think thats an awesome idea. The main obstacle to bards is that they arent perceived to be very zoneable. They can exp without much problem, but people dont really see the value to zone groups.

old depok wrote:
I can see either of these two effects being a huge benefit to groups in zones that would not infringe on any other classes abilities.



I agree!

old depok wrote: Increasing casters quick chant or meditate skill is great but it is mostly unnoticed by the group itself and the effect of it is hard to measure. Either of these two would be noticed (make sure the proc spells out what happened) and appreciated.


I think one of the biggest problems to the perception of a bards effectiveness in a zone, is that people cant really see the effects of songs, especially song of sorc. This is a good idea.

old depok wrote:Any skill you add that reduced the time it took to do a zone would automatically insure that bards were considered for almost any zone group.


I think thats what bards need, is a zone niche. I think this would do that without infringing on any other classes roles.

old depok wrote:
Keep in mind that if you implement a mem/pray system for bards you lose their effectiveness during mem/pray times as a singer unless they can do both at the same time.


Good point!

old depok wrote:I love Ashiwi's idea as well.


Me too!

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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:59 pm

Hate to be a wet blanket, but...

You already have pick locks, so I think I'd have to put my foot down about your improving your sneak/hide skills. A rogue that can pick locks, sneak, hide, AND heal the group? Think about what you're asking for there. Personally I don't even see why bards need a lock-picking skill.
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Postby old depok » Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:05 pm

Got another idea...

How about a proc to song of sorcery that causes a spell cast on a group member to leap to other players of that class?

So if an elementalist is casting fire embodiment on a warrior when the song procs the spell effects all warriors in the group.

Make it so it randomly picks one spell being cast.

Make it so it can not proc during combat.

I can't think of a situation where you wouldn't want that spell to be on all the same players of that class. Can anyone else?

Again, something to speed up zones and a really cool effect that people can see.

The power of Birile's song causes Inama's Fire embodiment spell to leap from Crumar...

Touk's form changes to that of a raging fire elemental
Tourn's form changes to that of a raging fire elemental
Bala's form changes to that of a raging fire elemental

If anyone can think of a spell not cast in combat that you would not want on the same class let me know because that would make this idea a bad one.

Ok I thought of one, Dispel magic. That would suck. Any way you can make debuff spells not effected as a class by a proc?

Hrm need to think this through a bit.
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Postby old depok » Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:07 pm

I think I speak for all bards when I say I would give up Pick locks for a useful sneak/hide :>)
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:20 pm

I think the typical response to something like "I want a good sneak/hide ability" is... Play a rogue.

Two snaps around the world and a "Z for Zorro" triple snap on the side.
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Postby old depok » Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:31 pm

I do play a rogue. I can just never get in the group because YOU'RE there :>)

GRIN.

Seriously though, why give the ability if it is never gonna be used? I know this opens up a lot of cans of worms (ventriliquate anyone) but really.

How about capping the skill higher? Not at Master but higher than "you suck don't even bother thinking about hiding because you are either way too fat so no one is going to miss you or you are so clumsy you would fall over just trying to hide"
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Postby Birile » Wed Apr 09, 2003 4:00 pm

old depok wrote:Seriously though, why give the ability if it is never gonna be used? I know this opens up a lot of cans of worms (ventriliquate anyone) but really.

How about capping the skill higher? Not at Master but higher than "you suck don't even bother thinking about hiding because you are either way too fat so no one is going to miss you or you are so clumsy you would fall over just trying to hide"


That's exactly my point. I never asked for bards to be given the same max notch on sneak/hide (or ANY rogue skill) as rogues get. But we are a rogue/mage hybrid. At present our rogue skills are just about useless (except for pick lock which I !fail due to an ITEM). I've been called a half-assed rogue before. I wish. I am nowhere near the level of a half-assed rogue. And it's due to the extremely low caps. I would be embarrassed if the Imms gave me rogue skills that capped out at the same level as a true rogue. But like it, lump it or otherwise bards DO deserve some sort of respectable rogue skill that caps at a truly usable level.
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Postby Birile » Wed Apr 09, 2003 4:07 pm

Depok,

A thought on your idea about the proc making a spell cast on one group member affect all group members of the same class:

I don't think the way song procs work (or procs in general) would allow this to even be possible. Right now we (bards) proc ON the verse. The effect lasts until the next verse. It would seem that for this proc to work, the verse would have to hit on the same tick that a spell is completed. Unless you mean that every spell cast after we proc but before the next verse is affected by the proc?

Cool ideas about the proc to "auto-mem" some of the casters' spells. But I think the proc would be more appropriate for Song of Renewal since that is our meditation song. Time Stop on song of sorcery proc sounds cool but maybe a little too powerful. I also don't know how the Imms would feel about a level 41 bard proc'ing an effect that enchanters can't even cast until level 46--and only after doing a major quest, to boot.
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Postby old depok » Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:19 pm

How about it selects the first spell cast during verse? It would be fun to see clerics scurry to try to cast a group Fheal.

I agree The auto mem is probably better with song of renewal (see how little I zone with bards).

Who says that you have to make the group time stop come with the song when you learn it? Make the proc a quest and make it so it so the quest can't be done until level 46 (or hell level 50 for that matter). Maybe make the quest item an instrument that is level restricted as well. Time stop was put in to ease the pain of being an enchanter. This doesn't infringe on their abilities it just gives a little ease to the rest of the people in the group. Keep in mind that the window for this effect is very small because the bard has to be singing the right song, the song has to proc, and the casters have to have been ready to cast multiple spells when the proc happened. So I doubt it would be very useful.

In thinking about this I think the most useful one would be the auto mem one. It will be seen more, appreciated by all casters and doesn't come close to infringing on the abilities of any other class.

Would be cool if the proc did something lilke this...

Tendrils of colored magic emanate from Birile's Flute as the air is filled with the sound of his magical verse

Each player then gets a message like...

Birile's song helps you focus your thoughts,

You finish memorizing magic missile
You finish memorizing magic missile
You finish memorizing Force missile

Or

Birile's song helps you focus your thoughts,

You finish praying Group heal
You finish praying Vitalization
You finish praying Ancestral Fury

The message should also come up for casters who are not memorizing/praying but just say the part about You focus your thoughts.

That way they know that the bard proc'd and that it would have helped you.

I like this more and more. Maybe I'll level my bard some more.
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Postby Kaede » Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:23 pm

I could write pages and pages, but here are what I perceive to be the problem for bards:
1. Songs are too weak
2. Singing is inefficient
3. Mana system hurts bards under level 35
4. Spell system is inefficient
5. Rogue skills are capped too low

Here are my suggestions for bards:
1. Dramatically increase the power for several songs (except flight and offensive harmony).
2. Eliminate several songs and merge others together. It doesn't matter if there are a hundred songs to choose from since you can only sing one at a time (hmm, song of 10 damage or song of 25% chance of disabling mob's right pinky?).
3. Dramatically decrease the down time between changing songs and switching to spells/skills.
4. Eliminate the current spell system and use spellbooks and mem/pray.

These changes may seem drastic, but I fully believe that they are necessary to make bards useful in zones. Right now they are boring, useless, and frustrating to play.

-Jaeli (level 50 bard)
-Aivelei (level 50 bard)
-Kiyre (level 50 rogue)
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Postby old depok » Thu Apr 10, 2003 3:04 pm

In thinking about bards a bit more I think I see another issue with them...

Bards are passive in fights. Meaning you don't really do anything with a bard in a fight once you start to sing.

Every other class is active meaning you actually have to do something to be effective. Bards you don't.

I can't think of another class where you actually don't type anything during battle (not counting rescue triggers etc.).

Rogues circle and trip
Casters cast
Warriors bash, rescue shield punch
Rangers Um, well they can rescue at least.

I think making bards have to do something in fights would increase the fun of playing them. Not sure if having more song choices that mean something would help. Or eliminating the lag between songs (why change songs in battle when it will probably be over b4 you can start singing the second song anyway).

I guess getting rid of the switch song lag would help.

The fun of zoning is in believing that your skills and efforts will help turn the tide of battle. Sitting there and watching does not meet this criteria.

Depok
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Postby Birile » Thu Apr 10, 2003 4:03 pm

I agree with most of what Aivelei said except I don't think having more songs wouldn't be effective and a boon. More songs would make bards helpful in more situations, whether the help was small or large. But you're right, two songs that do basically the same thing isn't helpful and is redundant.

Depok, I like the auto-mem proc. But perhaps make sure that the spells it helps a caster mem is random and not based on a first come first served basis. Meaning if you (Depok) are praying with group heals prioritized, my proc won't necessarily auto-mem one, two, three (etc.) group heals but may instead auto-mem your create food that's prioritized seven or eight spells down or something. Otherwise, I think the proc can be exploited too much: Shaman prio's group heal, bard's proc auto-mems shaman's group heals, shaman then prio's ancestral shield, bard's song procs on the next verse and auto-mems ancestral shields, etc. *shrugs*
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Postby old depok » Thu Apr 10, 2003 5:08 pm

Birile - I would be fine with the number and which spells are auto mem'd being random though I doubt anyone is going to prioritize their spell list based on the hope that the bard is going to proc auto mem.

I would think that making the number mem'd dependant on skill would be good.
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Postby Birile » Thu Apr 10, 2003 6:10 pm

old depok wrote:Birile - I would be fine with the number and which spells are auto mem'd being random though I doubt anyone is going to prioritize their spell list based on the hope that the bard is going to proc auto mem.

I would think that making the number mem'd dependant on skill would be good.


Yeah, but I figured it'd be good to make it random just to be safe, I guess. I agree that the number auto-memmed would have to be dependent upon bard skill (maybe tie it in to the caster's meditate skill as well?) but bard songs are already dependent on high skill level just to proc anyway--so it probably won't make much of a difference in the end. But a good idea, nonetheless!
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Postby Snurgt » Tue Apr 15, 2003 12:06 am

*bardbump*
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:26 am

I was under the impression that bards was overpowerful.

Zoning with a 50 bard was insanely easy...

Room slow made huge fights versus tough mobs a joke.
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
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Postby Clan Blindhammer » Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:14 pm

I skipped a lot of the idea posts (flash of inspiration) I use to play Sideul, a bard, long long ago. And after hearing about the accompaniment problems (if I wanna change songs, hope the accompanying bard doesn't pick up where I left off..) I thought of another skill that could conteract...to a degree.

Concerto!

Concerto, in the barroque fashion, means against....uhm, in classical music, two bands playing against each other in melody (one high, one low, or one large, one small band, etc.) Sooo, bards can choose to play in accompaniment or in concert with them. Maybe allow it to use up to 3 bards? That may be too powerful.. 2 accompanying, 1 concerto'in the lead.

And also, perhaps limit what songs can be played in concert (Sorry, I keep thinking of somebody saying, "This is the remix!" and busting out with the lyrics of one song over the music of another...;) ) Like, song of harming, song of healing (or the equivalents) couldn't be played in concert....they'er to different (the point was, the music's in concerto weren't playing opposite notes/songs, just opposite instruments/size of instruments). So maybe Bard 1 plays song of protection and Bard 2 plays Song of healing.....both have to make the saves so as not to mess each other up.


Idea could use a bit o tweakin, but I think it's agreeable and not to over powering if thought out and planned right.
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Postby Birile » Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:51 pm

Interesting idea, Arti, and one that could fix the problem of not being able to sing two songs in the same room. I'm not sure if it's possible to institute or if this, too, would crash the mud just as I was told singing two songs in the same room would do presently. But worth finding out!
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Postby old depok » Wed Apr 16, 2003 9:00 pm

Jegzed wrote:I was under the impression that bards was overpowerful.

Zoning with a 50 bard was insanely easy...

Room slow made huge fights versus tough mobs a joke.


Hence the mad scramble to get bards into every zone group. Oh, wait that's Invokers.

I can't remember the last time I grouped with a bard in a zone. I heard it can happen, but its been a long time.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Apr 17, 2003 3:32 am

old depok wrote:
Jegzed wrote:I was under the impression that bards was overpowerful.

Zoning with a 50 bard was insanely easy...

Room slow made huge fights versus tough mobs a joke.


Hence the mad scramble to get bards into every zone group. Oh, wait that's Invokers.

I can't remember the last time I grouped with a bard in a zone. I heard it can happen, but its been a long time.


If you've ever grouped w/ one you'd see why taking a bard to a zone is insane. I mean a good lvl 50 bard.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Clan Blindhammer » Thu Apr 17, 2003 8:09 pm

old depok wrote:In thinking about bards a bit more I think I see another issue with them...

Bards are passive in fights. Meaning you don't really do anything with a bard in a fight once you start to sing.

Every other class is active meaning you actually have to do something to be effective. Bards you don't....

I think making bards have to do something in fights would increase the fun of playing them. Not sure if having more song choices that mean something would help. Or eliminating the lag between songs (why change songs in battle when it will probably be over b4 you can start singing the second song anyway).
Depok



I had a really mean idea. Make the bards actually play their song. Like they'll see a prompt and, it's like Simon Says;) they have to emulate the song to play it. Can be made more and more difficult as more bards enter room, longer played, etc. That'll give them a lot to do;)

A...
A...D..G..
A...D...G...G...G..
A..D....G....d#.....d....G...A....e
..A.d...d.g..e...a.a...e.g...f....a..d...b.c...c.!
LOL (joking)
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Postby Birile » Thu Apr 17, 2003 8:13 pm

Clan Blindhammer wrote:
old depok wrote:In thinking about bards a bit more I think I see another issue with them...

Bards are passive in fights. Meaning you don't really do anything with a bard in a fight once you start to sing.

Every other class is active meaning you actually have to do something to be effective. Bards you don't....

I think making bards have to do something in fights would increase the fun of playing them. Not sure if having more song choices that mean something would help. Or eliminating the lag between songs (why change songs in battle when it will probably be over b4 you can start singing the second song anyway).
Depok



I had a really mean idea. Make the bards actually play their song. Like they'll see a prompt and, it's like Simon Says;) they have to emulate the song to play it. Can be made more and more difficult as more bards enter room, longer played, etc. That'll give them a lot to do;)

A...
A...D..G..
A...D...G...G...G..
A..D....G....d#.....d....G...A....e
..A.d...d.g..e...a.a...e.g...f....a..d...b.c...c.!
LOL (joking)


*snicker*
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Postby Snurgt » Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:16 pm

So Shevy chevette, what ya think ?

bard powah
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Postby Treladian » Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:21 pm

Clan Blindhammer wrote:
I had a really mean idea. Make the bards actually play their song. Like they'll see a prompt and, it's like Simon Says;) they have to emulate the song to play it. Can be made more and more difficult as more bards enter room, longer played, etc. That'll give them a lot to do;)

A...
A...D..G..
A...D...G...G...G..
A..D....G....d#.....d....G...A....e
..A.d...d.g..e...a.a...e.g...f....a..d...b.c...c.!
LOL (joking)


I just got a really interesting image of bards having to hook up DDR pads to their computers to use their songs . . . :twisted:
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Postby Eilorn » Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:29 pm

Implement the Mud Sound Protocol, and let the bards be the only ones that can insert music into the sound channel 8) .

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Postby Snurgt » Wed Apr 23, 2003 1:20 am

Eilorn wrote:Implement the Mud Sound Protocol, and let the bards be the only ones that can insert music into the sound channel 8) .


That would pwn!
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Postby Gurns » Fri Apr 25, 2003 10:08 pm

What, we talking about bards again? Here’s a way to make them more fun and more useful:

(a) Modify song effects: Somewhat reduce the group effects of songs by a solo bard. Slightly increase the group effects of songs by two bards (accompany). Significantly, even greatly, increase the targeted effects of songs.

(b) Allow multiple bard songs in the same room, the rule becoming “one song effect per customer”: Allow two bards in the same group to sing the same group effect song (using accompany, as now). Allow two bards in different groups to sing different (or the same) group effect song, even if they happen to be in the same room (their song only affects their group). Allow two bards in the same group to sing different group effects songs, so long as they are affecting different folks (healing and offensive disruption are OK; healing and protection are not OK; offensive and defensive disruption are not OK). Two bards in the same group could sing a group effect song on their group and a targeted song on an enemy or vice versa, but could not sing a group effect song on the group and a targeted song on any member of the group.

(c) So long as it’s “one song effect per customer”, allow any number of bards to be targeting any number of individuals. Three warriors and seven bards? So long as no individual is affected by more than one song (a singing bard can be a target), then it’s OK. Add a “cacophony” effect, being the old bard stutter: The more bards singing in a room, the more likely any one of them is to stop singing and be briefly stunned. Add an “anti-cacophony” skill to counteract this, so high level bards aren't really affected until there's five or six of 'em singing in a room.

(d) Possibly add the “more targets” skill. A high level bard has a decent chance of being able to target two specific individuals with a song (so long as neither target is already under a song effect).

(e) Eliminate any extra lag time, and the extra commands, for switching songs. I’m singing healing, I merely enter “sing protection”, and the first verse of protection hits when the next verse of healing would have hit. That eliminates the twink potential of immediate song switches, while removing my greatest frustration.

With increased multiple bard effects, with the possibility for more song effects in a room, you increase the number of bards who are useful in a group. As it is, even a second bard isn’t worth it in a group.

I think that targeted song effects should be so greatly increased so that targeted high level bard songs have the equivalent effect to high level caster spells. A targeted song of protection from a highly skilled bard should have an effect as strong as displace. A targeted song of healing from a highly skilled bard should be at least a “heal” spell, probably higher (one “heal” every four rounds of battle? That’s not as fast as a high level cleric can mem and cast ‘em, if they even bother with heals.). Maybe a targeted song of sorcery should make every spell a one * spell (and if that’s too much with the spell effects boost, then make it a one * spell without increasing spell effects).

Such changes are harder to make than simply adding songs, of course. I think the basic concept of “limiting song effects on an individual”, a concept that is present in the current bard class is a good concept, and usefully designed to prevent, say, five bards singing healing in a room, with five song of healing effects. But the implementation of the restriction shouldn’t be the room, or even the group, because that’s the big handicap to multiple bards in a group. There’s no other class where the third one of that class in a group is useless. There’s no other class where the second one of that class in a group is of so little additional help to the group.

If you do all of the above, I don’t think we’d need additional songs. Being able to mix targeted and group songs, being able to watch our target and pick the right song for that target, and having targeted song effects be increased so a lvl 50 bard can actually come close to matching a lvl 50 caster…

While that might be enough to make the class more useful, more in demand… I want a song or spell of charming! I’m a bard, dang it! I’m supposed to be the most charming class around. I’m supposed to be able to charm crowds in the square, a king in his castle, and if I’m highly skilled and get really lucky, a dragon in its lair! I would gladly trade all my spells and all my rogue skills for a decent charm song or spell.

Song of charming? We used to have one. I loved it and hated it. Loved it, because it was so right for the class. Hated it, because it was so restricted! Wow, I’m one of the best bards in the world, and I can’t charm a lvl 12 mob. With a song of charming, I think I should have a chance of charming ANYthing. Not a good chance maybe, and it's sure to be an offensive song so it has to hit on the first verse, but a chance. Yes, I want that one in a billion chance of charming Tiamat. OK, as always, Tia is an exception. One in a billion chance of charming a dragon. The thing preventing "can charm anything, maybe" from being too unbalancing is the "maybe" plus mana burn, with instant attack when I stop singing charm. Just gotta make the rate of mana burn on song of charming dependent on the level of the mob. (How to Learn if a Mob is World Track or Not.)

An easy way to implement charm, though, is to give bards the old spell of charming. What was it, a chance to charm anything up to 10 levels below me? Add that into my set of spells. I'd rather have a song than a spell (Damn it, Jim, I'm a singer not a caster!) but the spell is already coded, somewhere.
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Postby Gurns » Fri Apr 25, 2003 10:30 pm

I’ve suggested some bard fixes here. I think my suggested changes would work to make bards more fun, but given what I used to see on the mud, and what I’ve read on the board recently, I think “the problem with bards” is part of a larger problem. What’s the problem? Well, we see folks saying that bards are overpowered in a (big) group, in that they make tough fights easy. Despite this, in my experience, bards are not looked for, when folks are putting together a group. Rarely asked to join, sometimes accepted when asking to join, but definitely an “extra”.

Why do leaders not look for bards? My guess is that fights are already too easy, in one sense, and too hard in other senses. Fights are too easy, in that the skill level of players on the mud is higher than ever, zones are well known and the fights well known, so there’s no need to make a group even more uber by including a bard.

Fights are too hard, in that mobs have these godly abilities: Insta-death procs. Hitting one person for >1K in a round, through every protection spell known. The new bash code. In these and similar ways, fights are too hard.

The problem with making fights harder in ways like that is that it’s not a good way to do it, in terms of player fun. Sure, mob hps can be increased, mobs can have more skills and more effective skills. What does that do? Because of human reaction times (and net lag), it makes the fights less fun. The element of human skill is reduced, the element of necessary but boring pre-fight preparation is increased, the element of luck is increased.

What do we see now in big fights? Things happen fast, or not at all. If your healers can’t zoom through their fheals FAST, you’re dead. If your offense can’t zoom through their spells FAST, you lose. If your warriors don’t instantly rescue or bash or shieldpunch, you’re toast. Forget about thought, decision-making, changing tactics in response to a changing situation. There’s no time for that.

This is boring. A lot of prep time, a lot of triggers, a lot of fast screen spam, the fight’s done, did we win?

One would think bards would have an advantage in this sort of fight. After all, we never have to make a decision about whether to change songs. We don't need good triggers. It’s usually a waste of time to change songs in a fight, because the fight is decided before the song-changing lag is done.

But I don’t think bards have an advantage. Why? Well, if our songs are affecting the opponents, there’s always some lag between entering the room and the time the verse hits. In that time, what contribution are we making to the group? Nothing, when everyone has to make an instant contribution.

If our songs are affecting our own group, there may be a similar disadvantage due to “waiting for the verse” lag (e.g., healing). If our songs have continuous effects (offensive or defensive harmony), then we are effectively part of the pre-fight preparation. BUT, our pre-fight preparation has to be timed to be effective. For bard songs to be effective, the tanks must get spelled up, then wait until just after the verse has hit before they lead into the room. One more annoying preparation routine. And songs are weaker in their effects than spells, so tanks are not inclined to time things just right because there’s little need to: It’s going to be extremely rare that the tank lives or dies just because he had song effects up (or not) on entry.

So the right way to change bards is to modify the whole fighting code first. Just a little change, ya. But I don’t think it’s necessary for bards, but necessary for fun for everyone. Ya gotta make skill in battle the most important thing. Not luck, not triggers, not whether you got loaded up with every last protection spell and every last bit of hps or AC. And make skill (and paying attention) be more a requirement to stay alive.

How to do that? Um. Surely the gods have better ideas than I. But I’d say, fights have to be slowed down, so players have a chance to make decisions. Fights have to have less spam, probably through a better Condensed output routine (put all the hits but mine on one line? Combined spell messages? That is, I should be able to see something of everything that's going on, so I know what to do (so gags are bad), but if too much text is scrolling past, I can’t read enough of it). Mobs have to be smarter and more flexible, so the same fight isn’t always the same. Mobs need a greater variety of skills, allowing them to target/counter the strengths of different classes (e.g., more mobs punch you in the throat to stop your casters, but with more flexibility: sometimes stopping healing and protection spells, stopping greater or lesser percentage of spells depending on mob level, etc). Perhaps most fun for the players, it could be made so that player skills require greater co-ordination to be effective. For example, spell feedback that has positive effects. Or make it so that a single player bash knocks the mob down for less time than now but two players bashing in the same round knock the mob down for longer. To be more interesting, add some sort of memory of who bashed the mob last, so that it’s a lot harder for the same player to keep bashing the same mob: the conceptual idea being that a mob will expect a bash from the player that last bashed it and so can avoid that bash more easily, the practical idea being to make bash triggers a lot less useful (so players have to think and pay attention).

All of this helps make the mud more fun, which helps bards by increasing the player base and thus the number of groups going out.
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Postby Allycis » Sat Apr 26, 2003 2:17 am

I think the most frustrating thing with the class has to be accompany. First of all it takes forever to get the dumb skill up..and you need another bard that's willing to hang out all day and let you accomp him..Would be nice if both the bards involved had a chance to have accompany up. In addition, it seems its hard enough just to convince most groups that one bard is necessary, so bringing two, especially when the benefits of accompany are extremely low just doesn't happen. Be nice if the skill could get up a little quicker but also it needs a bigtime power boost and maybe some effects you can't get flyin solo. No other skill/spell in the game requires to of the same class, so i'm thinking this one should be pretty darn good. I guess for now this is pretty much only for goodies since i'm basically the only battlechanter that plays.

I also think that some of the skills cap a bit low. 60 hide/sneak i'm ok with. It works every now and then and i don't want rogues to get the shaft. But some of the other skills cap pretty low. I'd gladly lose dual wield to have the caps for offense, double attack, backstab, circle, and evasion increased a bunch. Would also be nice if you could backstab and circle while singing, however unrealistic that is.

Dartok
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Postby Snurgt » Sat Apr 26, 2003 2:49 pm

Oh yeah, I cant remember if this was mentioned in this thread or not.
But another thing i'd like to see is a chance to double proc a verse every once in awhile, like every 15-20 verses or so maybe.

Like proc a double heal effect, or a double mana renew effect, or double offensive harmony effect, etc. I just like surprises!

Hib

EDIT: i just checked, it was Biriles idea and i already repeated this earlier in the thread.
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Postby Birile » Tue Apr 29, 2003 3:34 pm

Gurnsy! Miss ya, mang!

I agree that the rule of only one bard singing in any particular room at any particular time sucks and should be changed. But I'm 99% positive Iyachtu told me it would crash the mud to have two bards/bchanters doing this. Can an Imm possibly look into this and see if it is, in fact, the case? Because if it IS possible then I have some more suggestions to make... *grin*
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Apr 29, 2003 5:42 pm

Dalar wrote:
old depok wrote:
Jegzed wrote:I was under the impression that bards was overpowerful.

Zoning with a 50 bard was insanely easy...

Room slow made huge fights versus tough mobs a joke.


Hence the mad scramble to get bards into every zone group. Oh, wait that's Invokers.

I can't remember the last time I grouped with a bard in a zone. I heard it can happen, but its been a long time.


If you've ever grouped w/ one you'd see why taking a bard to a zone is insane. I mean a good lvl 50 bard.


Agree! I always look to include a bard when building a group. Dartok is always in evil zone groups if he's on. If not, we grab whoever the current bard is if there is one on. Bards/Battlechanters make any zoning group rock hardcore! I lub em! :D

I can see how they get frustrated tho. When not in that zone group enviroment, guess it can be kinda !fun for em. Me sowwie for you! :cry:

Ashiwi's angry mob pelting the bard with food idea is great! I was just thinking to make them aggro to the bard, but this idea is way better! :mrgreen: I guess it could be kinda like how orcs can summon hoard. Maybe bards/chanters could rally audience or something? Or I guess just play to whatever mobs are in the room? Shrug, I dunno. :roll:

Lotta neat stuff you guys and gals are coming up with! I hope something happens for the better! :D

-LL
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Postby Birile » Tue Apr 29, 2003 6:41 pm

Llaaldara wrote:I always look to include a bard when building a group. Dartok is always in evil zone groups if he's on. If not, we grab whoever the current bard is if there is one on. Bards/Battlechanters make any zoning group rock hardcore! I lub em! :D

I can see how they get frustrated tho. When not in that zone group enviroment, guess it can be kinda !fun for em. Me sowwie for you! :cry:

Ashiwi's angry mob pelting the bard with food idea is great! I was just thinking to make them aggro to the bard, but this idea is way better! :mrgreen: I guess it could be kinda like how orcs can summon hoard. Maybe bards/chanters could rally audience or something? Or I guess just play to whatever mobs are in the room? Shrug, I dunno. :roll:

Lotta neat stuff you guys and gals are coming up with! I hope something happens for the better! :D

-LL


Thanks for the support LL :) I hope something happens, too!
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Postby Birile » Mon May 12, 2003 5:36 pm

(shameless bump since Iyachtu's back) :D
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Postby Guest » Thu May 15, 2003 12:50 am

Some updates coming, more on the way.

1. Accompany is getting a sizable boost. It will increase both the average quality you get on the song more, and also will raise the maximum affects of the songs by quite a bit more.

2. Bards will be able to cast spells while singing, with no negative effects.

3. Singing songs for awhile will increase the quality and the difficulty faster. This may need to be increased even more in the future.

4. The maximums (caps) for the songs have been raised some (in addition to the affect from accompany).

This doesn't mean that other things I've said I'm going to do (the two new songs for example) arent' going to happen, this is just the first wave.

I'm also planning a rewrite of the spell list (including some spells that affect strength and speed of songs).
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Postby Snurgt » Thu May 15, 2003 11:51 am

Iyachtu wrote:I'm also planning a rewrite of the spell list (including some spells that affect strength and speed of songs).


That sounds awesome. Like a haste for songs to quicken the verses!

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