"Lead off with bash" Feedbadk

[Dalar]

Since this change I've been killed at least 7 times from bash and then melee. Most high levels mobs will bash me 95% of the time. The other 5% don't even have bash.

[Davester]

Want some cheese?

hehe - i got bashed and caused fragile little group members to be smited by breath attacks before i could get up and gheal...

[rylan]

I have to agree. The change need to be tweaked a low lower than what was iimplied in the news. I've been playing around with some high level mobs, and they would lead off with bash almost all of the time, and they don't seem to have any penalty for attempting 'floor-bashing', as they bash just as well when I'm already on the ground.

[Yayaril]

8)

I think I might start crawling around every where I go from now on.

[Guest]

Since this change I've been killed at least 7 times from bash and then melee. Most high levels mobs will bash me 95% of the time. The other 5% don't even have bash.

Sounds like the code is a success then!

[Dalar]

basically the code was put in, removed, then put back in. shrug

[Nekler BlazingWolf]

The code it great!
I'm sure the "lead off with bash" code was very much needed over other code that could have been written, otherwise we all know it wouldn't have gone in.

I just kinda feel sorry for evils who don't have anything like rock to mud, as far as I know.

[rylan]

rock to mud doesn't do much when a pack of mobs try to bash you the instant you enter a room though

[Salen]

Bah Kia beat me to it. So instead I will say,

If it only killed you 7 times either you need to play more or the code needs turned up. :lol:

Seriously though, the bash on enter is a little silly. It would be ok if big mobs could miss, but they don't. I get floored by level 40 mobs all the time and rarely do they miss. 10 levels difference and elf Agi/Dex should make them stand little chance at hitting me.

[Mitharx]

I for one would like to see Ythera crawl around everywhere he (she) goes. That is all

[Corth]

its heavy-handed in the same way wingbuffet was and blocking code is...

[Tanji Smanji]

10 outta 10 ice trolls in jot lead off with bash, thank god for embody.

Btw, kinda fun seein 'Someone sprawls right through you!'

[Dalar]

yea maybe they'll reduce caster damage by 75% and leave melee damage the same. this game just keeps getting better and better

[Sarell]

I agree that this code is way heavy handed. When a level 50 elvish druid cant take on a lvl 40 ogre warrior in the forest cos they cant stand up it can be a little frustrating / no fun. I think it would be cool to see serious mobs bash a little in combat rather than only switch, rather than just floor everyone on entry. I think as the code stands it certainly hurts only the players doing things in hard ways for fun anyhow, ie solo things etc. However it doesnt hurt the greatest oslo class near as much, and is just a really silly facet of group fights, ie - lets make the cleric enter first so they get bashed then the warrior rescue n stuff.

[Ensis]

just outa curiosity..dont most PC's lead with bash? isn't the smart thing to do to bash the caster right off the bat? :)

[Corth]

Lets give PC's blocking abilities then to make it even :)

[Sarell]

PCs are different to mobs nogs...

[Tasan]

ooooooh can I get 10k hp while we're at it?! Then I might have a chance to survive being bashed :roll:

T

[Vahok]

I personally like the theory of the code, but it's a little jacked up. Now, I enter a fight, get bashed, pray I live, and watch rock to mud happen. Sure, make some bashing, it makes fights a little interesting for the whole party. I feel just tone it down a wee bit be nice. However, it's not quite as insane as before, so steps in the right direction have been made. Keep up the good work!

[Lilithelle]

It can be a bit much, also makes double fleeing especially dangerous since it tends to happen when your just about dead. You enter flee after your bashed cause you know your in for a world of hurt, then your wimpy kicks in and you end up fleeing twice and getting bashed a 2nd time and killed. I know I can turn off wimpy but I still find its more use to have it on for those cases when near death comes too fast to anticipate and react. And I don't always remember what my wimpies at or if I remembered to turn it on and after being bashed I can't check so sometimes I just have to chance flee.

Makes zoning with an enchanter almost necessary just for reduce, rock to mud isn't much use on big fight if you get bashed mid-casting, also almost necessary to bring a class that can make pets to send in first cause the tank won't survive being bashed and tanking the whole room. When it was first re-introduced I was doing manscorps and we had two warriors enter the room at the same time, all 7 manscorpions from the squad went on the same tank which they bashed on entry, tank took 900 damage 1st round even though he entered scaled. Your standard 2 clerics, enchanter, displacer isn't enough to correct for that cause the tanks last 100 hps went before they could get any spells off.

Getting bashed multiple times before you can stand up from the first is just deadly to casters, whats worse was i've been bashed while reclined from wing buffet. I was tanking a golem, who ever was tanking the dragon(automaton) fled or died. Dragon wing buffeted and engaged me (and stunned me), then the golem bashed me just for extra measure. How do you bash someone who's reclined?!

I can probably live with this change, just remove the double bashing please.

[Llaaldara]

I loathe the instant bash on entry. :evil:

Targsk took something around 1084 hps and died in one round last night in brass from this same deal. He had all the prots and splat he went.

Jaznolg hates me cuz i'm always asking for reduce. It doesn't matter what zone we're doing or what mobs. I always want to be reduced. I don't use a wimpy. The two times I've done so resulted in my double flee'n death. Flee out, flee back in, bash, dead, welcome to soj. But Jaz made a point the other night. Do you, the staff, just want us to always reduce our groups for every zone now? Maybe you should give necromancers reduce then. And fly. Hey sorry but, you asked for it. :P

On that note, does anyknow now where or if there are any reduce potions in the game. If there are, I'm gonna stock up. :roll:

On a side note, Kudo's to the creator of Oakvale. I love how the mobs there stop spellcasting without bashing players or stun'n them! This is cool! :D

Here's a question for the staff. Why aren't mobs more actively rescue'n eachother? If the big thing for zoners is to make most their mobs !bash, why aren't they doing more rescues on their buds? Look at Driders. How much harder it would be if the mobs persistantly rescued eachother? Or Jot. Or Clouds. Or..

If this is all because area wanks aren't giving the protector/rescue flag to their mobs, then Cyric needs to start smacking people around! :wink:

"I mean Emotional Content, not anger!" -Bruce Lee

-LL

[old depok]

Ok it's obvious that we need to give bards a new song...

Song of reduction! (no jokes at Birile's expense please)

Not to be confused with the song of shrinkage!

:oops:

[Dalar]

Ok it's obvious that we need to give bards a new song...

Song of reduction! (no jokes at Birile's expense please)

Not to be confused with the song of shrinkage!

:oops:

rofl i was thinking the exact same thing. bards need song of reduction. then again gods are probably going to downgrade reduce now.

[Kaede]

Bash skill has always been silly I think; its success rate is too high and has a consistent and lengthy lag on its target. Should be more like trip in my opinion...

But I would like to see more mobs bash and then spam shieldpunch until you die. :shock:

[rylan]

Llaldara: Unfortunately having mobs rescuing all the time instead of bash would just end up being a downgrade to melee :(

Kaede: There are plenty of mobs who already do that. I take it you haven't tried fighting packs of mobs with shields lately? You'll be in stacked SP lag for most of the fight.

[Daz]

i hate reduce :P

[Nokie]

Bash skill has always been silly I think; its success rate is too high and has a consistent and lengthy lag on its target. Should be more like trip in my opinion...

But I would like to see more mobs bash and then spam shieldpunch until you die. :shock:

I'm pretty sure trip lasts just as long as a 'normal' bash: 2 rounds. Although even if you trip with a 'stun', it still only lasts 2 rounds, unlike a 'floorbash'. (Note I am not complaining about trip).

And bodyslam lasts like 10 rounds or at least it feels that way.

To get slightly offtopic, I'll related a bodyslam experience I had in the arena. Gura walks in and bodyslams me. He was always nearly dead, so I killed him in the next round. While I was still in bodyslam lag he managed to recover, re-enter the arena, walk back to my room and re-bodyslam me.

That tells volumes about either 1) bodyslam or 2) the lack of delay before re-entering the arean.

[Llaaldara]

Llaldara: Unfortunately having mobs rescuing all the time instead of bash would just end up being a downgrade to melee :(

How? I don't understand. As far as I can tell, most mobs just don't even have the protector flag that makes them be rescue happy with other mobs. I don't see this as something new, so I don't know why it would lead to some form of downgrading? :?

Please Explain! :D

-LL

[rylan]

Say you have a room such as Jot 2nd gatehouse. You tell everyone to target 1.guard. Piece of cake for the casters, sine they just type c 'nuke' guard.
Meanwhile the hitters type kill guard, only to see him rescued by other mobs in the room, causing you to be targetting the wrong mob. So you try to switch back to the correct target, only to get hit with switch lag and the 'you get confused while trying to switch' thing, which leads to a couple rounds of hitting the wrong target and/or not even engaged due to switch failure.

[Dalar]

flaming is bad

[rylan]

I don't really see any flames in this thread.. I miss one? *snap*

[Llaaldara]

Say you have a room such as Jot 2nd gatehouse. You tell everyone to target 1.guard. Piece of cake for the casters, sine they just type c 'nuke' guard.
Meanwhile the hitters type kill guard, only to see him rescued by other mobs in the room, causing you to be targetting the wrong mob. So you try to switch back to the correct target, only to get hit with switch lag and the 'you get confused while trying to switch' thing, which leads to a couple rounds of hitting the wrong target and/or not even engaged due to switch failure.

I think you just explained a great way for the staff to make fights slightly harder with minimal effort! :D I love this idea! It puts even more emphasis into nukage! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Ok. I see your point BUT that only affects warriors in a negative sense realistically. And your warriors damage is usually piddling compared to a rogues (who doesn't have to worry about not doing his rescue duty due to switch lag). You're whole point only has to do with auto-melee damage. Any special attack by a rogue, like his trip, is still targetable. (Right?) Just like a warrior can auto attack and be tanking one mob and bash another. (Right?)

So the auto-damage gets spread out over different mobs more? What's this cause? Well simply it causes the damage to be more wide spread. So what's that mean? Means fights will last longer and more emphasis will be put on area damage. Which in turn puts more hardship on all caster classes. The clerics have to heal more in a longer fight. The enchanters have to scale more in a longer fight. The invokers have to cast even more in a longer fight (So now it might not be only 1 voker casting inferno, 1 invoker casting swarm, 1 invoker casting cloud/thunderblast - wow! the 2nd voker might actually have to cast all his inferno's after the first is done instead of just once if she's lucky!)

I love this idea! Cast more spells per battle! Increase mem times! Make fights more difficult and dramatic/suspensful by a marginal degree! Slow down speed-zoning and eq harvesting!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Watch warriors have to do more rescuing!


I'M LOVING THIS!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D

-LL

[Kaede]

Rylan: sarcasm was lost on you, doh!

Nokie: trip does not lag for 2 rounds. Mobs just don't get up immediately because they're stupid and only perform actions during a combat round.

By suggesting bash should be more like trip, I meant it should fail more often, stun more often, and possibly have a variable lag ranging from 1 to 2 rounds. It wouldn't really change things for combat; mobs still don't react in time to take advantage of that. But it would have an effect in arena, the real zone! :shock: [/quote]

[Ashiwi]

Ok. I see your point BUT that only affects warriors in a negative sense realistically. And your warriors damage is usually piddling compared to a rogues (who doesn't have to worry about not doing his rescue duty due to switch lag). You're whole point only has to do with auto-melee damage. Any special attack by a rogue, like his trip, is still targetable. (Right?) Just like a warrior can auto attack and be tanking one mob and bash another. (Right?)

And once again weight the group towards needing multiple invokers over any kind of melee. Didn't they just try to rein that in a bit? Actually the need would increase for multiple rescuers with multiple invokers because of the switching and would edge other "non-essential" classes out even farther.

[rylan]

nods, ashiwi saw some of the point I was making. :)
With the melee damage spread out more, mob will live longer. To make up for this, more casters will be brought to target nuke the specific mobs that are more deadly, thereby trivializing melee damage and making casters even more important. But enough of this, we're getting off the original topic :)

[Dalar]

man, 5 more minutes of my life wasted trying to figure out what llaldara is thinking.

i agree with you rylan about the whole melee stuff

[Llaaldara]

And once again weight the group towards needing multiple invokers over any kind of melee. Didn't they just try to rein that in a bit? Actually the need would increase for multiple rescuers with multiple invokers because of the switching and would edge other "non-essential" classes out even farther.

People ALREADY take multiple invokers. Wtf? You know what my invoker gets to do for most of a zone? Ooo one spell. I'm either the Swarmer, the Inferno'r, or the Cloud'r. The only time i'm not a one spell poney for a zone, is when i'm the ONLY invoker in the group. Sorry kids, but that doesn't happen very often. Mmmmkie?

Oh crucify me for wanting a little more emphasis on invokers. Jeepers creepers. :roll: Gee wiz, in a zone I either do.. A) Damage, B) Damage, C) Damage, D) Cast the occasional Detect Invis or Detect Magic, or E)All of the Above. Yes I'm aware that's what an Invoker is. Damage. But I sure do not like being a one spell for a whole zone class. I'm not EVEN ASKING for another job. I'm ONLY asking that I get to do my job a LITTLE longer and make it a little more important. Is that so freaking bad??? :shock: And stop acting like zoning is so hard now. We roll most zones in 30-40 mins that were designed to take multiple hours. Oh lord she wants make things harder. We can't have that. Waaaaaa! :P

OK Ashiwi, if you want to put the balance of damage and importance in group into alignment between a rogue and invoker. Let's do that. Yeah, let' do that right now. First thing, you loose your nofail sneak/hide ability. How you like them apples? There all you get to do is damage now. No more luring mobs to group. No more scouting out zone. No more running off to complete item quests. No more CR'n group on spank. Hey you aksed for it. You wanted less emphasis on area damage, which means single damage, which means rogue = invoker. Ta-da! Enjoy!

Oh wait, we can't take away nofail sneak/hide, because the staff already tried that. And what did all the rogues do? Cried like little babies. Waaaa.

Gimmie a break. :roll:

-LL

[Ashiwi]

ROFL

Wow, just a little on the touchy side, there? WTF was that all about?

[Clan Blindhammer]

Now you've all done it. I'm speaking on it.

Llaaldara, Ashiwi has a point as far as usefulness of classes - rangers dires, rogues, bards sometimes druids palli's anti's....i think i'm missing some but it does nay matter - they get edged out of main zone groups if other more viable classes - a.e. vokers, chanters, warriors, clerics - are up for the group at the same time. It's obvious. And with some of the newer changes, the mud itself needs to lean much more towards the melee battle. I'm sorry, but realisitically, an invoker isn't gonna cast much if a warrior lops of his/her head, and we've strayed SO FAR from that fact it's no longer humorous. (Although, on a humorous note, I will say that I think it's interesting it could take a lvl 1 warrior slashing a squirrel several times to kill it, but one crit from a squirrel (or kooshie for that matter to elves) can instantly kill the noob ;) think about it)

Of course I know that changing that fact would make the mud unbalanced towards melee a bit. And I honestly have no clue as to what would -really- make it more balanced. That is, without hurting some classes trying to be rebuilt in some way or another. As far as your castin' concerns Ll...well, you can cast in my groups any day belle ;) ;) But honestly, I'd whisper, "work on your chick chant!" ;)

And actually, I don't know why there is such a big difference between 1.voker and 2.voker in how many spells casted? explain that fer me? I reckon if 1.voker casts and then 2.voker casts, both will finish and start their second spells....pretty much they should cast about the same number of spells until mob is dead barring any bashes stuns death etc...


/idiot off

[Llaaldara]

I'm like not a morning person or something and hadn't had my coffee. :roll:

Well actually I tried to have some, but it is burnt and tastes like crap! If I had a mallet, I'd whack if over the head! Oh wait.. then it'd spill all over.. Oh OK. I wish I was outside or something and then I'd whack it over the head. But coffee doesn't have a head! Damnit! This day is going horrible! :wink:

I knew I shouldan't have stayed up so late last night. But I couldn't help it! :roll:

Doh!

[Clan Blindhammer]

See, thats what I'm talking about. Your coffee. Too much nukage, not enough melee. :lol:

[Llaaldara]

Okie Artipants! :wink:

Here's an example. Doing Jot gatehouse. 2 invokers in group. By the time the first voker is done casting all 4 inferno's the battle is over. If i'm the 2nd invoker I cast my swarms and i tap out about the same time. I can get swarm off a little faster then most inferno's. So it averages out to abot the same time. There is usually one or two rogues in this group as well. So in 4 infernos the gatehouse is whipped. If i'm lucky, which means whoever went first with inferno's made all their quickchants, I MIGHT be now able to cast atleast ONE of my own inferno's.

This is the way it goes for most zone fights like this that you do area damage in, and not ring-and-run tactics.

When we did SF the other night, the final battle was done in one run. I only casted 5 spells. The group arrangement was just like the jot example above. It was me and istari as invokers I'm pretty sure.

Btw Artipants. My quickchant is 99. I don't fail it that often and I'm pretty sure I can snap out my 4 inferno's faster then most other invokers. On the average. The only time I fail inferno quickchant on any regular basis is when i'm in the arena! :roll: It hates me there! :cry:


Ashiwi... Nothing a good pajama party wouldn't cure! :D

"PILLOW FIGHT!!!"


Oh gawd, think I'll have one soon on he MUD! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

-LL

[Birile]

Nothing a good pajama party wouldn't cure! :D

"PILLOW FIGHT!!!"


Oh gawd, think I'll have one soon on he MUD! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

-LL

I'm up for this if LL's slutty grey elf alt is gonna be there. :twisted:

[old depok]

So I was going to roll up an Invoker alt and then thought what the hell am I gonna do whe nI am not zoning? I asked a level 50 invoker and he said "Blow Sh@t up!"

That is what the class is about. They are the monks of Soj 3.

That said, you point out a trend that I think everyone has noticed. The change to the combat system didn't increase the need for melee. It actually did the reverse. It increased the number of invokers in zone groups to "blow Sh@t up" faster.

While we used to be able to take some of the other caster clases to help deal damage it doesn't pay to bring them now.

Ok, show of hands, you are leading a zone group. You have one spot left after filling in the required classes (cleric(s), tanks, enchanter, shaman, a rogue if you need them to scout/pick/cr, an illusionist if you need to flux, etc. and as much damage as you need to safely do the zone.) . How many people are going to bring another invoker over the bard/druid/elementalist/anti? Everyone?

And you are proposing to increase their usefulness?

I would propose the following...

Merge some caster classes. Downgrade damage to the invoker spells that survive.

Give rogues range to reduce their reliance on globes.

Upgrade archery to make it useful in zones.

It used to be that Rangers were a valid choice for zone group damage vs. invokers. Not so anymore.

Make ranger ranged > rogue ranged

We have to get back to the point where area spells do not dominate the large fights anymore.

Ok that should cause enough debate for a while.

[Clan Blindhammer]

I personally would veto a ranging for rogues to allow rangers that edge and find something nifty for rogues to do. I never liked invokers - i miss sorcerers with a general allotment of spells. But thats just me, and if you know Artikerus, my opinion is worth less than a very dead rat. I think specialization and kits are the way to go however. Specialization for clerics suck my wee nasties - everyone goes healing because, duh, thats what you do. But i think every class should be able to specialize in a choice of 2-3 things to the benefit of the class itself. Rogues - assassin/thief/merc (yes damn it, we never shuold have lopped 'em all in) Warriors - anti's/palli's/rangers]dires[/etc.

Actually, that would heh redo the entire bloody mud honestly. nevermind me, i'm just drunk at work!

[Dalar]

the day they remove invokers is the day I stop listening to jpop. it's never going to happen. no matter how broken they are shevarash will keep them in. the only true way to get them downgraded is to keep bringing 5 into every zone group.

[Sarell]

If i'm lucky, which means whoever went first with inferno's made all their quickchants, I MIGHT be now able to cast atleast ONE of my own inferno's.

agree 100%. ferno is awesome. mobs are insane if they dont direct all their bashing and switching towards vokers.

[Nekler BlazingWolf]

*ponder*
Ok, it sounds like invoker area spells are too powerful. If one invoker can cast all their areas and just about kill all the mobs, then they need to be downgraded so the other poor vokers can cast their area spells to. :roll:
That or new types of feedback need to be put in for other invoker spells.
Two invokers casting force missile at the same time? Ok, reduce the damage done by them if two or more invokers cast at the same time. Two or more mages casting that powerful of a spell is going to put some hella drain on the magic in the area. One invoker casting them would be normal damage, of course.
Two or more invokers casting thunderblast at the same time (not sure if this has feedback now or not) has area effect stun on everything in the room (including group members).
Continue with other spells as needed.

/end ramble

[Ashiwi]

1) This post isn't about just invokers.
2) You guys are gonna make Xisi come in layeth the smack down.
3) This post isn't about just invokers.

[Llaaldara]

1) This post isn't about just invokers.
2) You guys are gonna make Xisi come in layeth the smack down.
3) This post isn't about just invokers.

It was about mobs starting off their first attack with a bash right? And double bashing and stuff? :roll: