Jot Invasion

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Bipple
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Jot Invasion

Postby Bipple » Thu May 01, 2003 2:05 am

I think the policy in regards to Jot invasion (if a second group arrives within 45 mins of boot they get glammad or palace) needs to be reviewed/modified so it is actually fair to the players involved. Today a group went to Jot and started doing invasion, cleared a bunch of the grid and did a large portion of the mobs around Glammad. We were right about to go on Glammad when a second group arrived (30 mins into the boot) and claimed half. They came and killed Glammad in about 5 mins, took 3 out of 6 invasion items then left while the group that did all the work could do nothing but head on to the palace and spend 2 hours finishing the zone for the last three items. I would have liked it if the Greater Admin on had made an actual judgement call and let the initial group do the whole zone however this was not the case and they told the first group they had to abort killing Galmmad and choose which half they wanted. This policy does nothing but piss off both good and evil groups alike and should be replaced with an actual policy that makes sence. A possible alternative would be to change Jot invasion load system to that of Musp, it's almost the exact same zone layout yet no silly policy is required to keep groups from fighting over it.[/list]
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Postby Dalar » Thu May 01, 2003 5:55 am

also note that these policies were made when the player base was much weaker. any good group can do glammad in 20 minutes or less
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Corth » Thu May 01, 2003 6:19 am

Note also that the <a href=http://68.100.62.165:8080/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6462>final invasion rules</a> were drafted when there were no trolls guarding the tree. Perhaps the one good thing about those trolls is that everyone knows the first group to get past them owns the zone. The current rules assume there is ambiguity over who gets the zone because it was written before the trolls were implemented.

Currently, a group can kill the trolls, get to jot, and then end up being stuck with glammad because a second group gets 12 people to tree quicker. This has happened several times.

Suggestions:

1. First group to get to tree gets choice of palace or glammad... regardless of the amount of people in their group.

2. Lower the time limit for a second group to enter zone (by zone, i mean tree). 15 minutes after the first group enters is probably about right. Better yet, treat jot invasion like regular jot. One zone and one group.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Dizzin » Thu May 01, 2003 6:26 am

Just like to point out that in the incident described today.. the second group was actually the group that cleared the trolls since the first group had been in there from the PREVIOUS boot.

And I most definitely agree that the jot invasion rule is a dinosaur who's time is long past.
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Postby old depok » Thu May 01, 2003 1:07 pm

I think the problem is that the trolls are not hard enough and it allows small groups to check if invasion loaded and then gather a group after finding out.

Here is my suggestion...

First group to kill trolls gets full invasion.

Make the trolls much harder (so that you have to have the group together before you find out if invasion loaded)

Make the trolls block entrance into jot.

Make that room !tele.

Group has to have 12 people prior to starting the trolls (again, they must have had the people together to do the Trolls)

No camping Jot or Ethereal. If someone in your group camped it your entire group is not eligible for jot.

All group members must have been gated up.

There are still some issues that I see...

What happens if I can still do the new trolls with less than 12 people?

What happens if i can do invasion with less than 12 people?

Makes regular Jot hard because now you need a full on group to start it when you don't need a full on group to do it.

The issues that Invasion engenders are due to the race to find out if invasion loaded. That race can be done with a small group and then you can gather a group willing to do invasion.

That same group would probably not have been gathered for a regular jot run.

I did Invasion twice last week. First time we were the second group up. I think someone camped ethereal (I do not know for sure mind you) and then beat us to the tree. We were second group ready by about 3 minutes. We got grid. Quite frankly, I think we should have gotten nothing.

Second time we had a full group. We did full invasion. But up until 45 minutes into the boot we were still worried that we would have another group come up even though we had already done most of the grid bby that time, claim part of invasion. It would have seriously sucked had we cleared most of grid and had to then only get half of invasion.

My 2 c's. keep in mind these were the only invasions I have gotten to attend so my perspective is from that limited experience.

Depok
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Postby Bilraex » Thu May 01, 2003 1:07 pm

Ya we were stuck there during boot, so what? The 2nd group didnt show up till 20 min after boot anyways, we would have taken the tree regardless.
But it does appear that everyone is agreement that the invasion rules need to be changes to reflect the fact that the trolls are there and groups are a bit buffer now.
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Postby old depok » Thu May 01, 2003 1:22 pm

It was my impression that if the gods needed to reboot everyone needed to be out of Jot. If there was an emergency and they couldn't wait and invasion loads, I suggest that they just boot it up again until invasion doesnt load.

The fact that you were in Jot at the time bil gave you the advantage of knowing that invasion loaded.

If you didn't know invasion had loaded you might have just taken your loot and decided to do another zone or not zone at all.

I am sure that in this case you would have chosen to go back up regardless, but the advantage was still there.

Depok
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Postby old depok » Thu May 01, 2003 1:24 pm

Oh, and let's not get caught up in who was there when in the past. We all can cite instances when we or someone we know thought they were screwed on Jot invasion.

Let's try to think about how we address the issue.

Depok
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Postby rylan » Thu May 01, 2003 1:51 pm

I'll agree that the invasion rules need to be updated. Reduce time for 2nd group to something like 15 min as Corth suggested, or just have the first group ready have the claim for the whole zone. You could always put a pack of blocking trolls at the tree when invasion loads, and have the normal 2 trolls for normal zone loads. Dalar made a good point that the rules were made when the players were much weaker and would take quite a while to do invasion.
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Postby Sarell » Thu May 01, 2003 2:31 pm

A major flaw with the time rule is that even when not racing you could clair the people who check jot, get a group, then claim glammad. You would suck - but it fits with the rules. I like the idea that whoever kills trolls get to choose all of musp / jot, invasion or otherwise.

Another idea could be that you could put a group of firegiants with a pet dragon that blocks at the base of waterfall. Making sure plenty of trolls, beards, _rhemos_ load near base / in farm area. That way due to ROAR issues some clearing has to happen so there actually would be some sort of race. Whoever smites dragon gets choice. NOTE: pet dragon would load red musp scales :P
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu May 01, 2003 2:48 pm

Invasion, like all zones, is easier nowadays so yeah I think the rules need an updating. But I don't aggree that one group should get whole invasion without better defined rules systems to cover that. Pretty much everyone loves doing Invasion, and allowing more people to do it is normally a better then and causes less stress since some is better then none. :D
Not knowing exactly what the current jot invasion rules are,
I'd like to see the following put in place:
1) Trolls on tree repop at frightenly fast times. Therefor if one group clears it, another group can't just zoom by while they are still in mem after just killing the trolls. This way both groups will need to clear the trolls equally. Maybe a 2 min repop time or similar? Bodies on the ground will no doubt inform the 2nd group of the first.
2) 15 mins for second group to be enganged on trolls to have any rights to any part of jot invasion. (This has always been a race. If you're group isn't up there and wacking away at the trolls in 5-10 mins realistically you're not doing jot. I really do not agree with another group showing up 30 mins later and getting dibs on anything. This might be a big blow against evils, since a lot of times we gotta wait for someone of the appropriate class to log on, but oh well. I sure wouldn't want another group showing up 30 mins later and zooming past the grid we just cleared to claim anything.) :cry:
3) Any group already in Jot from a reboot instantly looses any rights whatsoever at Jot Invasion if they do not immediately gate out upon the new boot and start over like everyone else has to by clearing the trolls. (This needs to be done to ensure that everyone has to clear trolls and therefor be subject to the same standards to get a claim to any part of Invasion. If you want a chance to do Jot Invasion, Gate out now. No cheezing the rules and getting ahead of everyone else. If Invasion didn't load, continue on as normal. But if it did, GTFO!) :D

-LL

Ps. Yeah it sucks when you clear grid and then another group zooms by. But hey, that's the nature of the game! :D As long as the second group realizes they have to make sure they aren't doing the half the first group is doing, all is good. :D
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Postby old depok » Thu May 01, 2003 3:11 pm

Still think the issue is the race.

The race is done with fewer players than needed for full on invasion cause it can be.

Make the race to get the whole group together and then check Jot and you solve the problem.

I just don't see it as fair that one group does the hard work fastest and then gets half the prize.

It is a hard thing to work out because you don't want to force people to have a full group to do regular jot but you don't want to make it easy to figure out Invasion loaded with fewer people than it takes to do invasion.

Other thing you could do is to make it easier to get to the palace during invasion. That way the first group there could have the option of working on either the palace or the grid first. That way they dont make the effort to do the grid and then have the second group come up and benefit from their work because the first group really wants the palace.

just throwing things out there now.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu May 01, 2003 3:13 pm

I always thought people were supposed to get the heck out of Dodge for reboot anyway. That's not always possible given an emergency reboot, but if you have two minutes you have time to get out. If people aren't following that rule, then isn't it equivalent to camping?

We've been asked to leave Jot for reboot before, is there some reason this isn't being observed with everybody?
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu May 01, 2003 3:18 pm

Just like to point out that if the trolls had a 2 min repop time, you couldn't clear them with a small group too easily. Most likely they'd pop on you in the middle of clearing them. Kinda making it so you do need a larger group to roll them fast? Not exactly sure if we'd want this for normal jot, but whenever I've done jot, it's normally 12+ people. My understanding that's pretty much a large group no? :D

Yesh I know right now you don't need that much for clearing the trolls, but for the most part all the jot groups I've been part of, 6 people clear the trolls while everone else catches up at 1 up from them, and then the full group runs off and does jot. Aren't we trying to make it so that it takes more then 6 folks to clear the trolls? :wink:

I'd just like to take a moment to point out that Ashiwi is a Mega-Sweety! :D

-LL
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Postby Bilraex » Thu May 01, 2003 4:25 pm

the trolls should be left alone, which screw up regular jot
I like the idea of adding some nasty at 1u of trolls, then you have to have a full group to take tree. Then at that point its first group to take nasties get invasion.

And no we werent camping we were checking grid for rares when the popped a boot on us.
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Postby Salen » Thu May 01, 2003 4:28 pm

Or, since I've been in a 9-10 person group who did Invasion (took a few more deaths than we should have), why is there even a number of group members part to it? I would put money on the ability for a 9-10 member group to do Invasion in under 2 1/2 hours total including looking for rares.

It's very easy, you kill trolls, you pick Jot or Musph. If it's Jot invasion, so what. If you stand at tree waiting for enough people and another group goes in, too bad. If you have seven people and wanna clear trolls, that should be enough to claim the zone, so do it.

The rules everywhere else is, enough people to do the objective claims it. Chlora is a prime example of this. If I find Chlora(yeah right), and decide I'm willing to take the chance at death to solo it, why can't I spend a good portion of my life trying? I am enough to do it, so I should get to claim it as long as I'm willing to start it.

Jot is exactly the same, if you are willing to clear grid with less than max numbers, you can do it. If someone clairs you and your seven people don't move for a while then they should bump an admin to watch to see if you are doing the zone or holding it for others to arrive.

It's an out of date rule that needs to be gotten rid of;not changed, gotten rid of. If you have the ability to do the zone it is yours, just like MD,Musph,Smoke,TF, etc etc etc.

Beyond that, I guess I should ask why more than 15 are even allowed in Jot. The rule for all things except Tia is 15, why make invasion easier? The idea is it's chaotic and more difficult, balancing the fact it has better (haha) eq than regular Jot. As it is now, 2 groups of 11 or more (less than one full guild) could piggyback each other, drive through in no time, do all of Jot by having 20-30 people smoosh second gate, take everything and hand it out to whoever in the guild needs it, even avoiding the bidding squabble after.
(Shadows or Elders, do this a couple of times, I bet the rules get changed *whistle*) I KNOW it was done SJ2 when there wasn't a restriction against Red Squadron.

Besides there is only 1 thing worth doing invasion for, so being second means you suck.
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Postby old depok » Thu May 01, 2003 5:57 pm

Bilraex wrote:the trolls should be left alone, which screw up regular jot
I like the idea of adding some nasty at 1u of trolls, then you have to have a full group to take tree. Then at that point its first group to take nasties get invasion.

And no we werent camping we were checking grid for rares when the popped a boot on us.


The point Ashiwi was trying to make was that in the past if there needed to be a reboot people were told to get out of Jot. In this case it seems you weren't asked to leave.

No one accused you of camping. We were just pointing out that being in Jot at boot gives you a huge advantage to win Invasion. Thus the rule that people were made to leave.

The question will come back to can a smaller group start the nasties in the hope of getting some support mid battle or in the hopes that they can add people in mid spank and prevent people with a group that could actually do the mobs from attempting it?

Salen is right though, after the one item, invasion is not that great a bonus anymore Eq wise.

Still fun.
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Postby Treladian » Thu May 01, 2003 8:54 pm

In the past, some gods have manually teleported people out of jot if they needed a boot quickly, but sometimes they want to just boot immediately if it's a big fix. Obviously, these sometimes are an issue since they break the normal restrictions on stuff. Maybe someone should add a proc that a god can activate to automatically teleport any pc in the zone to TP instead of having to manually do it before a boot to clear up this issue in the future. It could even be used after the fact if someone forgets to do it before the boot and Invasion winds up loading.
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Postby Corth » Thu May 01, 2003 10:37 pm

Heh..

Depok you get nominated for dumbest idea of the year.

Making it too difficult for a grid group to get to jot would hugely diminish the very thing about the zone that makes it great.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Sarell » Fri May 02, 2003 4:17 am

All this focus on the troll is obviously going to lead to someone suggesting put 100 trolls at tree with all the invasion gear. STOP IT! I think the trolls are silly. Why put two stupid ass lost trolls, or more, as the gate keepers to such a zone as this? There is a 100+ room grid filled with fire giant militia and rhemos that are meant to be the way into the zone, not some lost stinky trolls. As it stands, you clear the trolls, then do jot; the trolls being some sort of proof that you can do jot? Why not just make the zone accomodate some of the new techniques.

Lots of people are referring to the 'hard work' people do clearing the grid etc so that they can get to palace la da da (NOTE: mudding isnt hard work). The thing that is happening, is that major groups are totally skipping the grid that they would probably actually enjoy because it holds some of the best fights in the game because they want to rush forward and actually get the treasure. This leads me back to my two original ideas of A. one group gets all. B. make big fight with red dragon that blocks at base of waterfall with lots of things loaded on grid around it including rhemos. The 'ROAR' factor would be awesome. This would make much more sense than two lost trolls putting a stop to your invasion of the FG invaders.

One problem here I could see arising would be both groups going on dragon fight or one group holding back letting other group clear around a bit then going on it and claiming that they cleared. Again it comes down to the problem that someone can show up late and still get the glittering prises (tho if salen showed up he would go home cos invasion gear sucks cept for surtur? *boggle*). This leads me to thinking that Corth's solution of lowering the time to 10 mins after boot for entry to invasion as second group would be reasonable, or perhaps 5 mins after first group enters. Any clearing done in the first 10 mins isnt terribly significant, the first group still gets the prize item, and both groups get to have a good whack at the giants all over jot instead of rushing what should be an ejoyable zone so that no one clairs you and turns up to take half the gear for 1 fight.

Race to top of waterfall used to work a bit better than current imho, is why i thought of putting a big fight with blocking at waterfall that you could race to kill.

Another wierd solution ... olaf loads with a key to palace that he will give you if you prove tougher than him by presenting the heads/beards of 5 beards or something. First group to get em wins. (more beards needed) If you can smite glammad and then still do quest first then you pwn and get both.
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Postby Gyrx » Fri May 02, 2003 8:51 am

How about we move the best crown in the game to a zone worthy of its stats? Clouds, scorps, etc etc are MUCH worthier of surtur.

Or you could just make an upgraded surtur, like gormal's crown or something just small stat increase, and put it on a rare set of uber mobs in avernus.

Having the item that's been #1 on my wanted list since the beginning of the wipe be unaquirable for me only because it's a rare that is soo easily checked and requires a group of 12 (which is hard for evils nowadays to gather and we could do it with less then 12) is such a slap in the face to me considering the fact that i've done every zone that's 3x harder but they can't even challenge surtur's stats.

On another note, I've talked to Shar a couple times about people camping jot, and it was my understanding that if they camp in jot then they automatically get kicked out and have no shot.
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Postby Yayaril » Fri May 02, 2003 11:53 am

8)

How about this: 5 minutes after the game boots up with invasion loaded, a die is rolled with a corresponding number for each person in the game. Whoever gets picked based on this die is the new 'jot invasion leader' for that boot and only people following that person can do jot invasion. If that person has to log off or can't do invasion for any reason, then invasion can't be done that boot.
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Postby old depok » Fri May 02, 2003 12:56 pm

Corth wrote:Heh..

Depok you get nominated for dumbest idea of the year.

Making it too difficult for a grid group to get to jot would hugely diminish the very thing about the zone that makes it great.


From one of my earlier posts in this thread...

"It is a hard thing to work out because you don't want to force people to have a full group to do regular jot but you don't want to make it easy to figure out Invasion loaded with fewer people than it takes to do invasion. "

You would think that someone who has been playing this game as long as you would have something constructive to add to the discussion. Seriously. Any IDEAS?
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Postby Salen » Fri May 02, 2003 12:59 pm

Someone rolls a large die across the skies.
Someone proclaims from above, 'Moritheil may lead Invasion.'

Myrranth says 'OMG I'm not ressing that.'
*ponder*

look
Myrranth stands here.
Ebgar (%%) stands here in mid-air.
Rylan (%%) stands here in mid-air.
Deltin (%%) stands here in mid-air.
Glorishan (AFK) stands here in mid-air.
Myrranth has dropped link.
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Postby Salen » Fri May 02, 2003 1:00 pm

Someone rolls a large die across the skies.
Someone proclaims from above, 'Moritheil may lead Invasion.'

Myrranth says 'OMG I'm not ressing that.'
*ponder*

look
Myrranth stands here.
Ebgar (%%) stands here in mid-air.
Rylan (%%) stands here in mid-air.
Deltin (%%) stands here in mid-air.
Glorishan (AFK) stands here in mid-air.
Myrranth has dropped link.
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri May 02, 2003 1:17 pm

My number one hope is that Surtur is NOT moved. Jot invasion is one of those things newbies grow up looking forward to.

Ditch the trolls, first group of X# in the group gets the whole zone. You don't want to have to be forced to group because that might be giving somebody else a shot at what you want? Cry a river. People WANT to do invasion. People WANT to have a shot at Surtur. Keep the group requirement as the zone claiming factor.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Fri May 02, 2003 2:28 pm

This problem DEFINATELY needs a solution. It seems that the two biggest issues here are:

a) "camping" or whatever you want to call it when someone happens to be in/near jot when a reboot/crash happens and they magically pop back out at tree.
SOLUTION: i see no problem with people having legitimate reasons for being there... if the imms were to teleport them off after a boot when invasion loaded for being up there, they'd not be eligible for a zone they were perhaps just checking for rares before, or just inside? That is incredibly lame. The solution as _I_ see it is make some fairly hefty aggros rare-load (with decent frequency) on tree, and wander the tree. This would prevent anyone from taking the risk of camping on tree, accidentally or otherwise. It's plenty risky enough if yer in jot or another zone that has an invasion and you happen to be there at a boot. You could log in before anyone else in group and have a squadron of mobiles there and not too happy about your presence.

b)who gets to claim jot? can 2 groups do jot? etc....
I like the idea of a time limit on which a group can go into jot and claim 1/2 of it. It was a great rule FOR THAT TIME PERIOD. PC's have gotten much more powerful than back when the rule was implimented. _I_ think the time limit should now be applied in REVERSE. If a group is doing jot invasion, and has taken more than "X" amount of time (2-3 hours perhaps), the part of the zone they haven't done becomes readily available for another group to come clean up. This would allow the groups that can mow through the mobs (perhaps a 15 man group of people who need/want/deserve this uber gear) to get all of jot, instead of dicing the grid or palace into tiny bits in 30-44 minutes, and have some other group waltz in and take over palace. (or vice versa). I know this would piss me off mightily if my efforts and valuable time went to a different group trying to achieve the same goal my group was.

In conclusion:
Changing the trolls would be a poor idea imho. Leave em be, when invasion doesn't load, they won't be worth the kill to do the regular zone, so who misses out there? the smaller, or perhaps less-skilled or less-eq'd groups that are trying to do jot for its rewards. Adding random, or not random, pretty buff mobs that wander the tree, perhaps only when invasion loads, would be a much better solution to this imho. Also, a hint to groups that have an illusionist... i do believe sequester keeps peeps from clair'ing you. Sequester the group and all the sudden you have no "spies".

On a seperate note, how about adding surtur crown to muspel invasion too, or some sort of muspel stuff, its kinda silly to kill surtur and not get his crown, even when jot invasion doesn't load! =P
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri May 02, 2003 3:15 pm

Ashiwi wrote:My number one hope is that Surtur is NOT moved. Jot invasion is one of those things newbies grow up looking forward to.

Ditch the trolls, first group of X# in the group gets the whole zone. You don't want to have to be forced to group because that might be giving somebody else a shot at what you want? Cry a river. People WANT to do invasion. People WANT to have a shot at Surtur. Keep the group requirement as the zone claiming factor.


Me not sure this'll work :cry: What's X =? Evils are notorious for doing zones with less people in the group. If the number is too high, this could be grossly in favor of goodie groups. :?

Sadly, if we just base it on group #, there are always people who can cheese this and group anyone for the slots needed just to fill the group quota :|

Sounds like a lot of policing on the part of the staff for this to work :\

-LL
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Postby Vandic » Fri May 02, 2003 3:20 pm

Delmair Aamoren wrote:On a seperate note, how about adding surtur crown to muspel invasion too, or some sort of muspel stuff, its kinda silly to kill surtur and not get his crown, even when jot invasion doesn't load! =P


I have a hunch that there's a very good reason Surtur doesn't load with his crown, and not just because it's one of the best pieces of headgear in the game, if not the best.

On that note, I'm gonna propose a change to invasion that is the equivalent of standing in front of a firing squad equipped with flamethrowers...

Downgrade Surtur. The mob too, but mainly the crown. If you think that's a crazy idea, name me another piece of headgear that has the following combination of qualities:

1. High AC
2. Decent hit/dam bonus
3. Incredible svspell (I only know of 4 other items with a comparable amount, of which only one is warrior usable)
4. Ancillary benefits (pr-fire and farsee)
5. NoSummon (there're maybe a dozen items left with this flag?)

Again, if you think this is crazy, just remember the fuss that was made when Gormal got his Surtur upgraded, or think of any trade that has been made or even suggested involving a Surtur.

My first suggestion would be to either expand the number of nosummon items (which I know ain't gonna happen) or nuke them entirely. Another possibility would be to involve Surtur heavily in the upcoming equipment balancing - maybe lower the hit and/or svspell, or remove the prot. Just thinking out loud here, feel free to flame now.
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Postby Corth » Fri May 02, 2003 3:28 pm

old depok wrote:
You would think that someone who has been playing this game as long as you would have something constructive to add to the discussion. Seriously. Any IDEAS?


Try reading the thread :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Ambar » Fri May 02, 2003 3:58 pm

or change the path so that both groups have to clear a grid? hell i dont know but man how long have we hashed over claims? Maybe we do just have to say one group one zone (who cares group numbers if 8 people can do zone)

i am so all about trying to see how smalla group you can use to clear zones .. to me its a show of skill, ok so maybe it's luck .. but .. the 12 member group limit rule is a thing from the past too ....

one group ... one zone ... if they clear trolls they got the zone ...


I also think it's unfair that the damn goodies get to claim pods ever boot *sigh*
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Postby old depok » Fri May 02, 2003 4:32 pm

Corth wrote:
old depok wrote:
You would think that someone who has been playing this game as long as you would have something constructive to add to the discussion. Seriously. Any IDEAS?


Try reading the thread :)


Chuckle. Guess we are both guilty. :oops: :lol:
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Postby Gura » Fri May 02, 2003 4:34 pm

ok well here goes. imo first group to engage trolls and kill them should get pick of palace/glammad if it loads. even if they're only 4 people. after they state their claim they would have 10mins or 15mins to get a group of 12 40+ up there. if they dont have the group they forfeit their claim(assuming it would be palace) and would have another 5mins to get 12people. if they get the people they get glammad if not the whole zone goes to the next 12 40+ group in the zone. just a possibilty i guess.
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Postby old depok » Fri May 02, 2003 4:53 pm

Ambar wrote:or change the path so that both groups have to clear a grid? hell i dont know but man how long have we hashed over claims? Maybe we do just have to say one group one zone (who cares group numbers if 8 people can do zone)

i am so all about trying to see how smalla group you can use to clear zones .. to me its a show of skill, ok so maybe it's luck .. but .. the 12 member group limit rule is a thing from the past too ....

one group ... one zone ... if they clear trolls they got the zone ...


I also think it's unfair that the damn goodies get to claim pods ever boot *sigh*


I love to be in small groups trying to clear a zone. Of course its much easier if you can find a lilithelle or inama to bring with you!
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Postby thanuk » Fri May 02, 2003 4:58 pm

Vandic wrote:Downgrade Surtur.


Veto. Definately Veto. I can't believe someone who plays a warrior would even suggest such a thing. heresy!

Surtur is the best tank item in the game, since you can't get Ishas. Its the item. The top of the list. Don't even touch it. Downgrade anything and everything else, but dont touch surtur. You need to have that one item that everyone wants, such common goals are what breeds competition, something this mud is sorely lacking these days. If you take away the few remaining items that people actually compete for, then the game will get really stale, really fast. People need to fight over items, and to compete against each other to accomplish goals. It makes the game harder, it makes you better at it, and it makes it more fun. If every class had an item that was as important as a surtur is to a tank, you would see alot more competition around here, and alot better players emerge as a result of it.
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Postby Ambar » Fri May 02, 2003 5:25 pm

bleh lili left us :(
*whine* *scold' Su....*

but yeah its hella fun

where we all used to say how easy zones have gotten, now we get smaller and smaller groups to do the same thing .. its FUN! and o the death cries of the PC's !!
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Postby Vandic » Fri May 02, 2003 5:35 pm

Call me crazy Nukkie, but I don't necessarily believe that competition of the sort that Surtur breeds is necessarily healthy. Jot invasion and that damn green dragon - we all know her well - probably cause more bickering and headaches than the rest of the zones and mobs on the mud put together. At some point you have to ask if it's worth it.

Now, I'm not in any way saying that a downgrade of Surtur is the best idea, only that it's one of many. Personally, I'd like to see something awfully nasty load at the first room into the jot grid when invasion hits, something that would take a full zone group (insert lengthy argument about "what is a full zone group" here) to get through. Honestly, if you're going in on a big raid, you don't leave the back door wide open for someone to sneak up on you. Same goes for Muspel invasion, really.
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Postby Zen » Fri May 02, 2003 5:44 pm

There are 4 invasions in the game, the rules should be the same for all of them. Jot invasion rules are a dinosaur from before the trolls, before smoke, before muspelheim and before gith invasion. Whatever the rules are for Jot invasion should be the same rules for any other invasion. First group with suffient numbers to do the zone gets the zone, regardless of how they got there.

Now that would not take care of some of the other issues, but there _are_ rules on camping and rebooting etc, and they should apply to Jotunhiem as well as every other zone. From what I can see the staff has made it a point to clear invasion zones before a reboot, so that should not be an issue we dwell on. It is not always possible to clear the zones before a reboot, but they do try whenever they can.

Lastly, I would suggest we eliminate the trolls altogether in favor of something else. The problem with the trolls is that there is not one, but two invasion zones past the tree. Giants are smart, let them build watch towers on the tree and man them with gateguards. Make it so that you have to get past the outter gate to get into either zone and check the invasion in either Muspelheim or Jot, but not both. This would eliminate the idea that whoever got past the trolls had the pick of the zones.

My two bits.

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Postby Dalar » Fri May 02, 2003 5:53 pm

Zen wrote:There are 4 invasions in the game, the rules should be the same for all of them. Jot invasion rules are a dinosaur from before the trolls, before smoke, before muspelheim and before gith invasion. Whatever the rules are for Jot invasion should be the same rules for any other invasion. First group with suffient numbers to do the zone gets the zone, regardless of how they got there.

Now that would not take care of some of the other issues, but there _are_ rules on camping and rebooting etc, and they should apply to Jotunhiem as well as every other zone. From what I can see the staff has made it a point to clear invasion zones before a reboot, so that should not be an issue we dwell on. It is not always possible to clear the zones before a reboot, but they do try whenever they can.

Lastly, I would suggest we eliminate the trolls altogether in favor of something else. The problem with the trolls is that there is not one, but two invasion zones past the tree. Giants are smart, let them build watch towers on the tree and man them with gateguards. Make it so that you have to get past the outter gate to get into either zone and check the invasion in either Muspelheim or Jot, but not both. This would eliminate the idea that whoever got past the trolls had the pick of the zones.

My two bits.

-Llandrien


"First group able to get there gets" it is extremely vague. I can do full invasion w/ 8 but can Moritheil? I didn't read the whole thread yet so if i repeat someone else's ideas then "my bad":

1) Downgrade surtur to make it similar to the other 3 invasion headgear and add a mage item to compensate.
2) Add some sort of area after the trolls where a group has to fight past 3 fire giant or frost giant sentries to enter jot or muspelheim. This would help confirm where the first group goes.
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Postby Bilraex » Fri May 02, 2003 6:12 pm

i like the idea of separting muspel and jot, they should have seperate entry points from astral guarded by trolls for jot and giants for muspel. No more well muspel vasion didnt load so we will take jot grid crap.
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Postby Dalar » Fri May 02, 2003 6:24 pm

actually, why not have it so jot invasion loads as the result of a quest? or have it load at a random time like musp invasion?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby thanuk » Fri May 02, 2003 6:51 pm

Vandic wrote:Call me crazy Nukkie, but I don't necessarily believe that competition of the sort that Surtur breeds is necessarily healthy. Jot invasion and that damn green dragon - we all know her well - probably cause more bickering and headaches than the rest of the zones and mobs on the mud put together. At some point you have to ask if it's worth it.

Now, I'm not in any way saying that a downgrade of Surtur is the best idea, only that it's one of many. Personally, I'd like to see something awfully nasty load at the first room into the jot grid when invasion hits, something that would take a full zone group (insert lengthy argument about "what is a full zone group" here) to get through. Honestly, if you're going in on a big raid, you don't leave the back door wide open for someone to sneak up on you. Same goes for Muspel invasion, really.


I hear what your saying, but trashing the item doesn't solve the problem, it just treats the symptoms. People are going to bicker and argue and be petty over items, regardless of what they are. Taking away the best items so you cant fight over them anymore doesn't really solve anything, it just changes which item we'll be fighting over. If its not surtur, its musp crown or 100 other items. Make jot invasion harder, fine. Make different rules, great. But don't take away the item that makes people fight over jot invasion so they'll stop fighting, cuz they'll just fight over musp invasion instead.
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Postby Zen » Fri May 02, 2003 9:11 pm

Dalar wrote:"First group able to get there gets" it is extremely vague. I can do full invasion w/ 8 but can Moritheil? I didn't read the whole thread yet so if i repeat someone else's ideas then "my bad":

1) Downgrade surtur to make it similar to the other 3 invasion headgear and add a mage item to compensate.
2) Add some sort of area after the trolls where a group has to fight past 3 fire giant or frost giant sentries to enter jot or muspelheim. This would help confirm where the first group goes.


It's vague when you have two trolls that three good players can kill to get into the zone. Adding a group/area of giants you have to fight to enter jot or muspelheim would eliminate the confusion if the difficulty was enough. Breaking into the zone to check invasion should prove your group is sufficent, be it 8 or 15.

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Postby Llaaldara » Fri May 02, 2003 9:35 pm

Brainstorm!! :D

What if there were two jots? :shock: And when one loaded invaison, so did the other! And and and they happened to be on oppossite sides of the mud! :mrgreen:

Or we could just seperate Musp and Jot and have jot invasion load when musp does. Have them linked ya know? :wink:

Hey all you jot experts. But seriously..Um... what all comes from jot anyways? I wasn't aware that Twilight wasn't worth getting anymore??? Is this true? :cry: Well if you don't want it, you can give it to me! I could use the +max_con belt too! :D

The way this thread is going, i'm starting to lean more towards the one group gets jot shpeal. :|

-LL
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Postby Corth » Fri May 02, 2003 10:45 pm

This is one of those times when I am glad that the gods seem to ignore ideas on the bbs. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Xisiqomelir » Fri May 02, 2003 11:35 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Ditch the trolls, first group of X# in the group gets the whole zone. You don't want to have to be forced to group because that might be giving somebody else a shot at what you want? Cry a river. People WANT to do invasion. People WANT to have a shot at Surtur. Keep the group requirement as the zone claiming factor.


re: Ashiwi, bringing more people to buff up the numbers doesnt necessarily give the fillers a shot at anything.

The way I think the rules should be:

First group of seven (large enough number) to start fighting trolls should get the entire zone. It should be seven because that is a large enough number to finish the entire zone. (i.e This would stop solo enchanters/elementalists from claiming zone by saying they were doing pwb runs etc). They should get the entire zone because it is far less difficult than quite a few other zones on the MUD, and there is no reason that anyone should be forced to share.

O yes, and camping at Jot/Muspel/Tree is LAME and I wish more people would be punished for cheating that way :\
And if there's a planned reboot, people should be transed out.
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Postby ssar » Sat May 03, 2003 2:28 am

Zen wrote:There are 4 invasions in the game, the rules should be the same for all of them. Jot invasion rules are a dinosaur from before the trolls, before smoke, before muspelheim and before gith invasion. Whatever the rules are for Jot invasion should be the same rules for any other invasion. First group with suffient numbers to do the zone gets the zone, regardless of how they got there.

Now that would not take care of some of the other issues, but there _are_ rules on camping and rebooting etc, and they should apply to Jotunhiem as well as every other zone. From what I can see the staff has made it a point to clear invasion zones before a reboot, so that should not be an issue we dwell on. It is not always possible to clear the zones before a reboot, but they do try whenever they can.

Lastly, I would suggest we eliminate the trolls altogether in favor of something else. The problem with the trolls is that there is not one, but two invasion zones past the tree. Giants are smart, let them build watch towers on the tree and man them with gateguards. Make it so that you have to get past the outter gate to get into either zone and check the invasion in either Muspelheim or Jot, but not both. This would eliminate the idea that whoever got past the trolls had the pick of the zones.

My two bits.

-Llandrien


This includes some of the best suggestions regarding jot/musp I have seen.

It seems this issue should be looked at by some admin, and a brief set of jot/musp invasion rules worked out.

The rules as are seem dated and need changing, the idea that 1st capable group gets the entire zone alone has merit I think.

Making musp and jot access more separated especially in terms of being able to check invasion sound like a good idea too.

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Postby Gyrx » Sat May 03, 2003 7:10 am

Ashiwi wrote:My number one hope is that Surtur is NOT moved. Jot invasion is one of those things newbies grow up looking forward to.

Ditch the trolls, first group of X# in the group gets the whole zone. You don't want to have to be forced to group because that might be giving somebody else a shot at what you want? Cry a river. People WANT to do invasion. People WANT to have a shot at Surtur. Keep the group requirement as the zone claiming factor.


Was I crying about forcing to be grouped? No. I'm known as a grouping person, i don't solo anything. I'm next in line for surtur on the evil side, so i'm not worried about it going to someone else. The group requirment factor hurts evils big time, i don't need 12 people to do the fight so why should i have to lose a shot because there aren't 12 level 30+ evils on? And yes, it's happened several times before.

I LOVE the suggestion about having jot invasion load based on quest. That roxors so hard.
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Postby Shevarash » Sat May 03, 2003 6:12 pm

We're discussing it, thanks for the feedback and suggestions. :)
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Postby Ashiwi » Sat May 03, 2003 6:16 pm

I never said you were crying Gyrx, don't take things personally. I also didn't say to leave it at 12, but for something like invasion there should be SOME group considerations or we'll end up with the same three or four up there over half the time.

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