One more "No More Zoning For Evils". Ideas inside.

[Ruagh]

With recent changes in the Dark Side population, evils are, in fact, slowly dying. You may disagree with me, but lets look at the facts: evil elite which was capable of leading zones has, in fact, almost stopped actively playing, and because of lack of leaders - almost no zones are done today. Of couse I will be told "Butbutbut USA people are zoning at peak hours!!! well, sometimes." Okay, maybe, lets look at the plain average numbers: it was always 2:1 or 3:1, but now it is a terrifying 6:1, often raising to 10:1. I was struggling for removing "Dont roll an evil, you'll be hurt bad" greeting from newbie rolling screens for 2 years, and it was recently removed. But apparently, its too late now and definitely not enough to change the situation with "avalanche effect" - ie "No evils online, why should I roll an evil? DING, one more goodie newbie online". I have talked with lots of goodie altless newbies, and most of them are telling me that they thought this way when they were chosing their Side/Race/Class. I am not whinning, I am trying to find a solution for this. I have played a drow enchanter alt enough to knew what ultras are, and I have played melee classes enough to knew what infras are. And it is NOT really hard being an evil, if you have brains, and ultravision has its own powers. So, what may be done to increase the numbers of evils? I would propose:

1. Lower squid "Globe of Darkness" to lev.21 from lev.35 to allow zoning in daylight with ultras in group. Theres a definite lack of squids at all, and situation with high-level squids is even worse, as you all know.

2. Lower squid "Shift" ability to lev.31 (or even 26?) from lev.41 to allow efficient transporting system, and tweak shift skill tables reflecting this and allowing shifts with better accuracy at lower levels. After all, its an inborn ability of all squids.

3. Lower the exp tables for the evilrace clerics and shamans. There is never enough (ummm, sometimes just none at all, actually) of those around.

4. Adding suggested evil races for newbies on the char rolling screens

5. Remove "Dont roll an evil" warning from the explanation of good/evil race concepts at the newbie rolling screens

6. Resolve routing issue because of which alot of evils cannot connect to Sojourn. I think that a server with shell accounts (or maybe with SSH forwarding?) will solve the connection problem without raising the multi issues.

7. To the evils: another quite common and sad opinion is "Evils are not as impressing anymore as they used to be on Soj2, I dont feel the comraderie anymore". Guys, stop hoarding the eq. Use handdowns system instead of dicing to allow newbies to get the gear which is vital for them. After all, it will be good for you because you will be able to zone more with them, and eventually less spanks will occur. Consider, which will be better - putting that spanky piece of eq on the alt which you will maybe use once per month, or give it to a person who will be using it all the time on his primary char, helping you in zones. Care about newbies, teach them how to deal with daytime blindness, how to behave, how to become an evil after all. I was doing my best for a long time, always trying not to fountainsit (and thus quite often leading Edak-style spanks), some time ago I was the only 30+ evil online for quite a long time, and now Im becoming tired of all this.

If you have constructive ideas, please write them here too. It would be good to see evil zoning groups running around again. Hope we will change the situation before "who evil" will show "No players available".

[Yayaril]

8)

Good riddance- long live the goodies!

[Ruagh]

Good riddance- long live the goodies!

Look above, please, Yayaril.

If you have constructive ideas, please write them here too.

Lets avoid silly posts like this. Personally, Im NOT a bigtime fan of goodies, but I havent stated that, right? I was asking for constructive ideas to change current situation. It will be much less fun for yourself if evil races will disappear because less competition is awlays leading to less fun. You want that? I doubt it.

[Dalar]

how about giving solid fog to classes other than enchanter? seriously, make the classes a little less diverse so we don't need an ench to do a real zone effectively.

[Tovar]

I personally think the whole goodie/evil issue is trite and definitely contrived...but that's not at issue. I am sorry that your racial preference on sojourn and the lack of active players is hindering your enjoyment, but the solutions you proposed are unrealistic. I'm afraid I don't have any solutions to offer other than...maybe try to be friendly to new players, maybe even drop the whole "I'm not a big fan/goodies suck" attitude that a lot of hard core ebils have, swallow your pride, suck it up or whatever...and try to coax a few goodies to make evils to try a new aspect of the game *shrug*

I do believe once the router issue is resolved you'll see the evil population bounce back somewhat, but remember...evils have always prided themselves on the smaller population and closeness of that constituency...which obviously does not leave a large margin of error when some leave/move on or whatever....best of luck though

[Llaaldara]

and try to coax a few goodies to make evils to try a new aspect of the game *shrug*

I've never had the goodies suck evils rule attitude. I've always had very good fiends spread equally on both sides. I always told anyone in my groups to can it if they started up with that crap. :D I've seen a couple goodies come play with the evils recently. I'm all in support of that! :D Fact, i've been supporting that movement for a while. Pleveling goodies is nothing new to me. Just hard to keep ya'll around once a goodie zoning group or a boot comes around. It's the same for me tho when i'm playing goodies. So i can't really be a hypocrit and harp on folks who do it.

I do believe once the router issue is resolved you'll see the evil population bounce back somewhat, but remember...evils have always prided themselves on the smaller population and closeness of that constituency...which obviously does not leave a large margin of error when some leave/move on or whatever....best of luck though

I'd hate to see once the router issue is resolved that evils go back to being elitist again. I kinda like it now, because we are so desperate for players that the attitudes (for most people) have gone down a lot. There is more common ground lately. I like that :D


Raugh, I'd have to aggree. I'd like to see more handdowns continuing to take place. I get on any evil leaders case who doesn't do this. Yeah I'm a nag, but I have good reasons! :D Really don't like watching items goto someone's 4th alt when there are people in the group playing their prime chars who need the items more.

Here's a suggestion.. Maybe we could have events or something. Like Play your evil for a day kinda things? Maybe? :D

-LL

[icecillam]

"tweak shift skill tables reflecting this and allowing shifts with better accuracy at lower levels. "

We don't miss. Altho if you really want I can arrange to have gakod run back and forth in wd for a bit (he's already got experience doing this *wink gakod*) and shift you to him.

Psi's have more issues that won't get solved by moving a few skills around. They are a kinda fun to play, but not quite fleshed out yet. Novelty wears out fast.

[thanuk]

Why dont you guys just stop being dicks to everyone so maybe they actually want to play with you?

[Gura]

ok first off. lowering a few skill levels or making xp tables easier wont help much. it just means we'll have bigger newbs in zones and we'll spank alot more. I can see the point about the disclaimer when rolling a char its kinda crumby but evils are considerably harder to play than goodie wankers. and just for the record...Evils are very impressing. you just don't group with the right ones Ruagh. Thanuk btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil. The fact that we are dicks to newbs makes them work twice as hard to get to zoneable status. so i'd put 20bux that our level 30s and 40s are alot more skilled than all of yours 8)

[Kifle]

Thanuk btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
The fact that we are dicks to newbs makes them work twice as hard to get to zoneable status.




so i'd put 20bux that our level 30s and 40s are alot more skilled than all of yours 8)

1. You just strengthend thanuks opinion there. And no. Your idea of conditioning your n00bs makes them run to the easier side or quit the game all together. You must remember not everybody gets instantly addicted to this place, you have to be "nice" to them.


2. Wrong, now give me 20 dollars...90% of our 30's-40's are high lvler's alts which are also 90% of the time better players than n00bs.

[Yayaril]

8)

Gura = pwned.

Not to mention a large percentage of our level 30's folks are ebils who got tired of the scene and changed sides. FLEX!

[Snurgt]

so i'd put 20bux that our level 30s and 40s are alot more skilled than all of yours 8)

Shouldn't that be singular? as in: our level 30 and our level 40 ?

[old depok]

Thanuk btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
The fact that we are dicks to newbs makes them work twice as hard to get to zoneable status.




so i'd put 20bux that our level 30s and 40s are alot more skilled than all of yours 8)

1. You just strengthend thanuks opinion there. And no. Your idea of conditioning your n00bs makes them run to the easier side or quit the game all together. You must remember not everybody gets instantly addicted to this place, you have to be "nice" to them.


2. Wrong, now give me 20 dollars...90% of our 30's-40's are high lvler's alts which are also 90% of the time better players than n00bs.

Cifle -I am the 10% noob- [barbarian] shaman level 47

Cifle gets a new title!

*poke*

[Ambar]

God can we drop this?? Jesus im sick of this topic!

There are equal number of dickhead goodies and evils .. there are just far fewer evils online at any given time., so the dickheads become more apparent ...

I have played both sides and been totally ignored as a brand new goodie until i tell you who my evil is, same as when I roll a new evil I get ignored until I tell who I am

What's my point?? Weare all elitist dickheads .. goodies and evils:P
Ask the players who have recently rolled evils .. once we get to know you we love you *yes if it is you should know who i am talking about* Ask around .. we GLADLY accept new people into our groups ... (ask the level 37 enchanter that was the ONLY enchanter in TF the other day .. we love people like this ..)

If you fell like I have to kiss your ass when you roll an evil .. um just don't roll .. stay goodie ...

If you can look deep into your heart and TRULY see that evils are *meaner* than goodies .. then please express your opinions ... until you have given it a chance .. stfu!

*Insert whining voice here* I rolled an evil and I didnt get asked to join a group .. <whining voice ceases to pound your nerves>

Well no shit .. who evil sort ... ask people .. if they arent busy i KNOW they will show you around ... I will log my warrior on and show new people DK and surrounding areas EVERY single day i log on ... mostly during the day we xp and explore .. we zone at night if enough are on ...


can you tell I am sick of this topic??
nothing personal Ruagh you know I love you ... but damn hun ... why bring this shit to the BBS??


-Ambar/Karikhan/Telina/Narra/Karadega (send me a tell I will try to help you whenever possible ... if i dont answer immediately im either afk (um yes i do ocasionally have to go to the bathroom) or trying to save my ass ... but eventually i WILL get back to you


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[Selias]

Hate to say it, but I gotta agree with Thanuk. I tried rolling a troll warrior just so I could get used to stuff on the evil side. No one would even tell me how to get to my guild in DK. That was very depressing.

Not to mention the fact that when I was solo'ing xp in DK and I asked some high level evils for spells I was ignored. I know they weren't afk, because they moved out of my room shortly after I asked, and I also know they weren't busy, because they were just sitting at that fountain.

I would have loved to play a drow chanter or cleric this wipe, but when I saw how things run on the dark side, it just totally turned me off. I'm not saying that the goodies are perfect, because we have our own problems. I'm just saying that the goodie's problems are easier to deal with as a newb.

As far as telling newbies to roll an evil. That's absurd. You're going to throw a true newbie into ghore as a level 1 warrior and expect him to get passed the lizardmen? Or have him play a duergar and find his own way out of the UD? C'mon now guys. Evils are the harder races for the more experienced players. If you really want to up your numbers, then I feel that you should lobby for hometown changes, maybe remove ultravision or something. As it stands now the downsides of the evil life aren't even close to being balanced out by the upsides.

[Llaaldara]

God can we drop this?? Jesus im sick of this topic!

There are equal number of dickhead goodies and evils .. there are just far fewer evils online at any given time., so the dickheads become more apparent ...

bark bark bark bark bark these 30-40 18 year olds working for me are driving me crazy blah blah blah...


------------------------------------------

"..you're nice until you get angry.."

Work can really suck, can't it? Venting is sometimes needed. :D I still love ya Ambs, even if..

As someone who has played evilrace since day one here on soj3, I believe I qualify to make these statements.

"To my personal experience, I have seen better treatment by goodie players who did and did not know who I was at the time then evils. I have seen this in all manner of ways such as generosity, kindness, friendliness, and helpfulness, both in intensity and regularity as compared to evil race players. They did not do this because they had to or as some plan to milk me for equipment, but rather as genuine kindness. I continually see this on the mud, as well as being apparent on the BBS."

I could look, but I'm pretty sure I've never heard a goodie tell me in a response post to shut the fuck up and deal. The proportion between complete condescending jerks and nice folks is way off in evil land. Yes it is. Pride shmide. We're all just making asses of ourselves on a consistent basis. Look how often we bicker with eachother. It HAS TO STOP. This is why i'm addressing the problem, because it IS a problem.

I'm honestly trying to knock it off. Please help! :D

-LL (once an Uber-bitch honestly trying her best to reform)

[Xisiqomelir]

If you really want to up your numbers, then I feel that you should lobby for hometown changes, maybe remove ultravision or something. As it stands now the downsides of the evil life aren't even close to being balanced out by the upsides.

eeee, I didn't want to post on a topic like this AGAIN (second verse, same as the first), but I must say that you're so very wrong here. Ultravision is so very much better than the alternatives it's not even funny. In addition to that it's characterful too, a rapidly disappearing quality.

[Ruagh]

lowering a few skill levels or making xp tables easier wont help much. it just means we'll have bigger newbs in zones and we'll spank alot more.

Agree, Gura. But lets look from the other point of view: newbies CAN be schooled, while you cant do shit without silly cannonfodder.

I can see the point about the disclaimer when rolling a char its kinda crumby but evils are considerably harder to play than goodie wankers.

What? Tell me that ogre is way much harder to play than a human? With his insane strength and stuff? Just dont wander in Neshkal, they dislike ogres, and you will have a same human, just alot stronger, but still easy to play.

Evils are very impressing. you just don't group with the right ones Ruagh.

Oh, thank you alot for the tip, Gura. You know, I never fountainsit, even when I have a shitty dialup on which Im sitting lately. And it is really sad to hear phrases like "Heh, probably it sucks to be you" when mentioning that I was unable to kill a rare dragon for 6+ hours because we were short of ghealer/fhealer/dscaler all the time, then I said "fuck it" and went to sleep. If those are the so-called "right ones"... then maybe some goodies are right with their opinion that evils are not the same as they used to be on Soj2.

Thanuk btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil. The fact that we are dicks to newbs makes them work twice as hard to get to zoneable status. so i'd put 20bux that our level 30s and 40s are alot more skilled than all of yours

Depends. Really depends. I was always trying my best NOT to be an evil dick, even if it is my inborn right. Instead, I was helping with advices what to do/where to look/etc. I just wasnt helping when I was hearing "Hey man, got some top-notch gear for my brand-new lev.1 evil? And also, go exp me around!". I was explaining instead that such a goodie behaviour is wrong. But I was explaining it without being a dick.

TO ALL: Guys, I knew this topis is a pain and it was discussed too much already. But this topic HAS to be brought back to life, because now all the evils are feeling it. And instead of writing constructive ideas capable of changing the situation, and to help the evils to be back on the road again, it becames one more silly personal flame, with the Yayaril-type posts. Lets try to avoid this? Dont post unless you have some ideas which can change something, please!

Also, Ive heard one constructive idea so far: giving Fog spell to other classes. It may partially resolve the problem for ultras, but it is not enough for zones. In zones, we need an instant moving fogged room, ie a squid globe. You cant run into the room with aggro, cast fog then fight. Tank will be long dead in high-end zones usually at the moment of the completion of the Fog spell.

[Ashiwi]

Have an open house. Invite goodies to roll an evil on one night, take them around, show them the ropes. Some of them may like it.

[Nilan]

Hmm,

I just think we should all just play the game and have fun. Evils zone, I have had fun zoning with groups alot. When people log on evils zone. Groups are happening. WE have fun doing OD Guild fun night. Bunch of us log on, we gather others who arent in OD who are online and want to play and we all go play :). We have newbie players on the evil side. We play with them too. Our newest enchanter is a newbie and she is having great fun learning how to zone etc. Its just fun, and fun is what you make of it.

I only have Nilan, I dont play alts. Evils are a great bunch of good players. I just think that this is a game and the point of a game is to adventure and have fun times.

Just think this "no more zoning for Evils" post isnt helping things, just making goodies hate evils and evils hate goodies. Both sides should just worry bout themselves and play to have fun.

Nilan

[Yarash]

If you're an experienced player, playing an evil can be a blast. There are new zones to learn, and new friends to make. I would recommend you make a char of the same class as your main, so you 1) can focus on learning your hometown, areas, culture, etc, and 2) be more useful in groups (as you are experienced with that class).

From what I have observed, evils go zoning regularly, to a quantity of zones proportional to the player base. The main benefits I have observed are
1) evils do "little" zones that goodies don't tend to do anymore (I enjoy ic vault, brass, etc, but rarely get invites)
2) you can more easily get into good zones. For example, I was allowed to join in a jot invasion group at level 39 or so. Half the time, Yarash doesn't even get a reply when asking a goodie invasion group to join.

But I think the best advice I could give is, be polite, be humble. Don't act as if you own the place, because you don't. You're basically a newbie again, so make sure to have the appropriate attitude and you'll do fine. Remember, nobody knows who you are in evil land.

Subliminal message: You feel the desire to make an evilrace cleric alt.

- Mike

[Mitharx]

I've been considering starting an evil cleric lately. I feel bad for there playerbase.

Yarash, I always invite you to small zones. I don't know the good ones:P

The reason I haven't started an evil is certain evils I have ran into. I've met a fair share of really great evil people (Turgg, Turxx, Arti, just to name a few), but those first few experiences where I was rp'in and all they did was look down on my eq because it wasn't my fifth character really discouraged me. The goodies I met (like lili, dartan, thanuk, yarash, nlariar, lorgan, etc., just to name a few) where always pretty nice to me. Thanuk still gives me trouble about how bad my eq is, but he doesn't have that look down on a person attitude that I got with many ebils. I'm not saying they're all bad or that I assume that they're gonna be jerks, but I have experienced a ton more hostility from evils than goodies and not just in RP. There are jerks on both sides, but the jerks on goodies have always been kinder to me:P

Also, don't take this as a knock on evils or don't take offense if you are an evil. I'm not saying I dislike you or assume you're a jerk. This is just what I've noticed through my limited experiences here.

Oh yeah, and I did restart my ogre war a while ago, I couldn't keep him because no one would help me with a cr:P

[ssaviss]

Let's do it - evil openhouse every Saturday night @ 11pm.

I'll be the first to volunteer... on Saturday Nights @ 11pm, log on your evil players and let's try to get the mud to a 50-50 ratio... experienced evils will have their tuxedo's on, and try to be friendly.

Anyone else out there with me on the idea?

-Sssaviss the Slithering Prestidigitator of Blood Raiders :twisted:

[Llaaldara]

Let's do it - evil openhouse every Saturday night @ 11pm.

I'll be the first to volunteer... on Saturday Nights @ 11pm, log on your evil players and let's try to get the mud to a 50-50 ratio... experienced evils will have their tuxedo's on, and try to be friendly.

Anyone else out there with me on the idea?

-Sssaviss the Slithering Prestidigitator of Blood Raiders :twisted:

I'll do my best to be there! An occasion to dress up... I'm there! :D

[Ionari]

so i'd put 20bux that our level 30s and 40s are alot more skilled than all of yours 8)

Shouldn't that be singular? as in: our level 30 and our level 40 ?

LMAO! *pwned*

[Ruagh]

Ive got a good idea for reiforcing the Dark Side, guys... What about finally finishing Menzo AND making it "Evil-only"? (It is rumored to have ways for the goodies to access atm - yup, I can understand this, Miax wants his city to be buzzing with life, he doesnt want to see a lonesome troll or two wandering it while dozens of goodies are zoning somewhere else). Add lots of tough aggro-goodrace street patrols accompanied by roaring/tracking dragons/etc, and tons of quests should already be there (maybe make the quest prizes not evil-only, but nobits instead?). Make it next to impossible for the goodies to survive there, and - guess what? Lots of new evils will appear! Just finish Menzo before the end of the century, and it will fix alot of stuff just with its appearance, because lots of evil "converts" have said to me that they will come back to the Dark Side to wander the streets of Menzoberranzan. And also, it would be good to hear some responces from Immortals here, too, because it can be discussed within Mortals, but whats the point?

[Xisiqomelir]

Just finish Menzo before the end of the century

Hopefully 97 years will be enough time. ;)

[Sarell]

Making zones and equipment evilrace only is a terrible idea. Of course people would make evils, but what is the point of designing a mud for 1/10th of your playerbase? People want to play good chars obviously, trying to force them to make evils so they can play the game would more likely make them quit rather than do that. I think Thanuk should print this topic out or something because it is bizarre that 90% of the mud agree with him! I mean after posting about the sexiness of mullets and dartan's mom who woulda thought he could be so concise in his genius!

When I started playing my evil char I was informed that I had to choose side or no one would group with me, of course I ignored them and went and formed a group. I also frequently see situations where people consider their exp group of 2 people to be 'full' which leaves little options other than going and playing with one of the 10 good align groups on. If you want people to play evil, exp them up mightily so that they will be able to join the evil groups. The numbers of midlevel evils on willing to exp is very thin at times. Even if it means you making an alt of one of the key classes so that mid levelers can get to high level, exping new people is worth it, beats sitting by yourself at DK fountain. Also, completely review the notion that evils are decidedly equitable and just. Playing an evil raced char on sojourn does not define who you are and the way you act, you define the evil population of sojourn by the way you play them.

I also don't discourage playing an evil char, there are some great people that do. Most of the people that will tell you evils are l33t probably dont play at the moment or are mistaken about their identity, they just happen to be very vocal.

[Ambar]

Sarell .. who said this???

When I started playing my evil char I was informed that I had to choose side or no one would group with me, of course I ignored them and went and formed a group

Cause i know noone who would say that .. that is totally outrageous!

God give us names of these twinks . ... please ....

[Ruagh]

Of course people would make evils, but what is the point of designing a mud for 1/10th of your playerbase? People want to play good chars obviously, trying to force them to make evils so they can play the game would more likely make them quit rather than do that.

First of all, Sarell, (Im sorry, but I have to said this) – this thread was started to discuss the recent situation about the Dark Side, and how to change it in a better way. Personally, I am tightly connected to the Dark Side, and I don’t want to be a goodie – but Im not yelling “Downgrade goodies, and force them all to become evilraces”, like you are. I am trying to help the people, and there are more of those than you think, which want to play evils. And to me and probably to lots of other evils, quit seems a good choice because we (obviously :twisted: ) want to play EVILRACE chars, and most of the time we are sitting on our arses around the fountain, or soloing around because Immortals (yup they have lotsa things to do, and, like all of us, RL issues) are mostly chitchatting about “Nooo, that thing is way too spanky and imbalancing, lets change it from +1+2 to +2+1 to balance the game better, and theyre missing that something happens that could (I hope not, but…) lead to the situation when nobody will be online to wear all that uberspanky, but alas - evilrace-only gear. Once again, lets be constructive and avoid Yayaril and Thanuk-style posts “Evils sux, Goodies rule”, please! Like I said twice (read above), if you have constructive ideas, capable of changing the situation – please, post them here. If you want to flame – go find some Daz’s post and flame there, please. And yes, I tend to think that maybe changing evils so they will not be equitable to goodies (in some key classes) maybe will temporarily solve the problem. Like I said, goodie attraction is not "obvious" as Sarell has mentioned, rather that’s a usual "avalanche effect" (go read nuclear physics), and Immortals should do something to that, because now it is seriously threatening all the remaining evils, and players alone cannot change the situation, it seems. It is not the matter of pure numbers, thats a matter of zoning groups. While goodies can run 2-3 full zoning groups at a time, evils recently are badly suffering from a lack of zonage at all, because almost all the time we are missing a key character needed for the zonage. Some time ago, when goodies were approx the same, and evils were able to run 1 (someimes even 2) zoning groups around, everybody was happy. We were outnumbered those days as well, but so what? We were zoning, and we were having fun. Thats what has changed, and thats what people are missing today.

[Yayaril]

And yes, I tend to think that maybe changing evils so they will not be equitable to goodies (in some key classes) maybe will temporarily solve the problem.

Then there is no need for a change, because evils have superior tanks, superior clerics and superior casters. The strong majority of the people I met who have gone over from evil to goodie has given me the same stories of abuse. The strong majority of people I have talked to who have went from goodie to evil has given me the same answer of: I wanted to try something new.

[Ruagh]

evils have superior tanks, superior clerics and superior casters.

Yes, thats true in theory. No goodrace melee can match evilrace melee at Arena, thats a proven fact, and drow mages are cool too, I can say that because Ive played both of those. But when it comes to practice - have you ever did something on shaman or even battlechanter heals, for example? I have did that many times. Yup, its kinda amazing to see what could be done if you have good connection and knew your way around - but when you HAVE to do it that way because you dont have fhealer/dscaler around, it becomes slightly different. Once again, Im not bitching, Im trying to find a solution to this problem - although personally evils are stronger than goodies - there is usually enough persons to gather 2 groups at the goodie side at any time, and you will have a tough time ICQing and calling people if you will need a full zoning group of evils, because people which are online simply cannot form a zoning group due to the lack of key classes - fhealers/ghealers/dscalers/sometimes even bashers.

The strong majority of the people I met who have gone over from evil to goodie has given me the same stories of abuse.

Not quite right... Ive seen people became pissed off when they were asked to handdown their old item to another group member who needs it for newly aquired item which is better than their current one - and wanted to keep both, and got mad. Thats a nice example of how sometimes high-level people go goodies, and who goodies are in general hehehe :lol: So, "abuse" sounds too loud in many cases.

The strong majority of people I have talked to who have went from goodie to evil has given me the same answer of: I wanted to try something new.

Yup, thats right... And also, another side of the coin - Ive seen MANY examples how goodies roll an evil alt, abuse handdown system, gather as much free good gear as possible then abandon that alt, transferring all the gear to the Waterdeep market. I hope that partially can explain why evils are often wanting the newbies to "prove them first", not just because all the evils are dicks who dont care, but instead just to be sure that this person is WORTH caring about. And personally (Ive convinced some goodies to became evils myself) I think that evil newbies are getting much more attention than goodie newbies are. Well, partially because of the numbers - theres only few evil newbies, while goodie newbies are usually swarming.

[thanuk]

Thanuk-style posts “Evils sux, Goodies rule”, please

My post had nothing to do with evil sux, goodies rule. My post stated one key fact that everyone, except the evils who want more players to come around, accept: Evils are, by and large, assholes.

There are some exceptions to every rule(poke turg, ambar), i mean hell im friends with alot of you evil folks. But you guys are dicks to newbies, plain and simple. And if you're gonna be a dick, they arent gonna wanna hang out with you. Your lucky to have them there in the first place, cuz its alot easier to play on the goodie side. So they go the extra effort, play the harder character with hardly any other players around to help them, and when they finally get to group with you, ya treat em like shit.

Well surprise surprise, now ya got no friends.

Im not preaching either, im a dick too. But im a goodie, so i CAN be a dick, because theres enough people runnin around that they dont need to group with me, i dont need to group with them, and if i want to be a dick and they wanna not hang out with me for it, we'll all get by. You guys just dont have that option. You need each other, because there ain't no other people to go play with. Well, there are, but they are all goodies.

So thats what it comes down to bro. This is a game. Its supposed to be fun. And while being an asshole to someone may be fun for you(as it often is for me), its not really fun for them. So they dont play with you. Then you bitch that nobody wants to play with you. well FIGURE IT OUT RETARD! See, there i go being a dick again. Feel free not to group with me, i have 120 other people to choose from. You have 3 other people. See the difference?

[Ruagh]

fact that everyone, except the evils who want more players to come around, accept: Evils are, by and large, assholes.

Thanuk, with all the respect, try to avoid such phrases, please. Have you ever played an evil yourself? Or that’s “oh well, actually I haven’t myself, but I knew a guy who knows a guy who has played an evil to the mighty level 3, and nobody was handing him down elite gear and plevelling”. And the question is exactly WHY there is only “120 other people to choose from for me, and you have 3 other people”. And the answer is more complex than just stating “cmon, all the evils are dicks, and everybody knows it”. Like I said like 5x times above, try to propose something capable of changing the situation. If it’s a new unwritten code of behavior draft – write it here. Just don’t yell “evils sux, not even counting that all the evils are dicks anyway”, please. Propose something, will ya?

cuz its alot easier to play on the goodie side

Also, that statement is not quite right… it is easier to play on the goodie side because of their numbers, plain and simple. You will have to agree that no goodrace melee can match evilrace melee, and that mages/clerics on the Dark Side are probably personally stronger than goodies as well. Thats just a matter of cannon fodder needed for zones, thats what we're discussing here.

[Snurgt]

You will have to agree that no goodrace melee can match evilrace melee

Whys that?

[Yayaril]

The strong majority of the people I met who have gone over from evil to goodie has given me the same stories of abuse

Not quite right... Ive seen people became pissed off when they were asked to handdown their old item to another group member who needs it for newly aquired item which is better than their current one - and wanted to keep both, and got mad. Thats a nice example of how sometimes high-level people go goodies, and who goodies are in general hehehe :lol: So, "abuse" sounds too loud in many cases.

So you are denying that the people I've met have told me they have gone over from evils to goodies because of being abused? So are you trying to tell me that they lied to me, or that I'm lying?

[ozub]

"7. . . .Guys, stop hoarding the eq. Use handdowns system instead of dicing to allow newbies to get the gear which is vital for them. "

From my experience(i.e. newbie) most people I have talked to have been very nice and several have given me some eq. I try to give stuff to other people if they need what I have (which is rare now *grin*). Anyway, it is really had to get eq and/or level from scratch. If I wasn't help with some eq I would probably still be struggling to get level 20.

Thanks! and p.s. keep it coming . . . :b

[thanuk]

Have you ever played an evil yourself?

yes.

Like I said like 5x times above, try to propose something capable of changing the situation.

stop being dicks to people. That was the point. Evil characters are more powerful, but its easier to be a goodie because there are more goodies. There are more goodies because evils are pricks to people. You want a code of behavior?

1. Don't flip out on people when they screw up.
2. Don't horde eq.
3. Don't blacklist people.
4. Don't make fun of newbies for not knowing what to do.
5. Don't show favoritism to your friends when you are the leader.

If you need me to tell you, though, you're never gonna be able to do it.

[Sarell]

other things to try....

respond to peoples tells always, not responding doesnt mean no.
hire some PR people to write posts to BBS?
try to avoid telling everyone what they think / should do / are / etc / etc..
um... has don't be a dick been mentioned?

[Nilan]

Laugh....Gee Thanuk all those reasons you posted are why i no longer play goodie.

But if you ask me this post has worn out its welcome. Evils are zoning. This week alone we did brass, crypts, tf twice, blood bayou and something else i forget right now.

We are having fun, evils are the best bunch o guys i ever played with. we adventure, quest etc....

Dont much see what the problem is if everyone having fun.

Nilan

[thanuk]

Laugh....Gee Thanuk all those reasons you posted are why i no longer play goodie.


Nilan

Thats the real irony of the situation isnt it:)

[Xisiqomelir]

You will have to agree that no goodrace melee can match evilrace melee

Whys that?

Because melee in general is abysmal, but Troll warrior melee is the best of the worst. ;)

[Ruagh]

2Thanuk: Exactly as Nilan has said, that should be applied to the Good Side as well. Also, care to name race/class/level of your Dark Side alts? Rolling a lev.1 n00b and running him around DK 1 time doesn’t count.

1. Don't flip out on people when they screw up.

Well, everybody was a newbie one day. That’s ok if a person is doing something wrong; just explain what is wrong with him. That happens all the time, and I was screwing whole groups a couple of times myself, when I was young and green. Much worse situation is when he is screwing up again and again in the same way… Well, you got my point. I have done 4 quite complicated CRs one day, when I just logged in to see whats going on for 5 mins, and was about to log.

2. Don't horde eq.

Rather, that should be said about goodies, it seems. In Waterdeep, people are shouting about the trades all the time, while in Dobluth Kuor they aren’t. Who has said something about hoarding, eh?

3. Don't blacklist people.

Evils (well, most of them) don’t blacklist people, that’s yet another common goodie opinion which is wrong. When you’re gathering a zoning group, and you know that you need that person’s hand – that’s silly not to invite that person to a group. Personally, I knew lots of 40+ evils who have high-level goodie alts, and they have told me about those alts in private conversations themselves. So what? Do I blacklist them? Instead, that’s a good knowledge, because I can ask them to switch characters when they’re playing goodies, and I need a hand on the Dark Side. I treat them as experienced players, who have decent knowledge of the Faerun, and due to their goodie experience may know a lot of things I don’t know about. Well, that’s MY OWN PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW, and it may differ from the point of view of certain other evils, but I don’t care. Like somebody has said, “opinions are like assholes, everybody has one”. I’m just doing my best caring about people around, answering questions and helping with my knowledge of the Faerun on CRs and questing.

4. Don't make fun of newbies for not knowing what to do.

Go start a lev.1 troll and try to get out of Ghore by yourself. You will see that evils will come and help you if you will ask high-levellers for help. Another question is when, for example, lev.10+ newbie is bugging all the 50th around for eq/exp/whatever instead of trying to do something himself.

5. Don't show favoritism to your friends when you are the leader.

It’s not favoritism to friends, man. That’s the way evils are living, and that’s how handdown system works. If you have battle-proven veterans next to you, along with some plevelled wannabies – when looking at them, you could see that both are in need for that item you’ve just acquired. And it will be a right decision to hand that to the veterans, and tell them to handdown their old stuff to the newbies. If these veterans are just occasionally used alts, and newbies are mains – well, that changes things too, giving those newbies a decent chance for getting an upgrade. In this case, maybe dicing the item between those who need it and who will use it is a good idea.

2Snurgt:Because evilrace melee is notificably stronger, lets look at the main evil tank – troll. He is much stronger, and more agile than dwarves and barbarians, not even mentioning humans. Also, remember about good hp regeneration which allows doing lots of stuff with just a stoner – and decide yourself. And secondary evil tank - ogre is like 2-3 times stronger than those, btw.

2Nilan:

Evils are zoning. We are having fun.
Dont much see what the problem is if everyone having fun.

Well, in peak times USA people can gather a zoning group for mediocre zones, that is possible. But in other timezones, evils are unable to zone because they don’t have all the necessary classes online. And even for the USA people, I doubt there is enough online to do Scorps/CC/MD/Clouds/etc, so people are doing tf/Brass/crypts instead for the Nth time.

Evils are the best bunch o guys I’ve ever played with.

Same here, stabby. I agree. I have enjoyed the times when I was slashing the foes hand-to-hand in the weird and interesting places in a good company of long passed by people.

The problem still exists and it can be briefly described as:
1. Why most of the newbies are going to the goodie side, and
2. How to change things with avalanche effect, which is affecting the distribution of players more and more, and eventually can lead to the extinction of the Dark Side.
Any constructive ideas capable of changing situation are still warmly welcome. Although it seems that this thread becomes a useless "goodies rule, evils are dicks" flame instead, because nobody cares. *SIGH*

[Ashiwi]

evils are the best bunch o guys i ever played with.

Nilan

Imphras is the best bunch of people I've ever played with. Maybe it's just a question of where your friends are.

[thanuk]

2Thanuk: Exactly as Nilan has said, that should be applied to the Good Side as well. Also, care to name race/class/level of your Dark Side alts? Rolling a lev.1 n00b and running him around DK 1 time doesn’t count.

You still dont get it. Stop comparing yourselves to goodies. Goodies can get away with shit that you cant get away with, because we have the playerbase to not group with other people who we dont like, whereas you do not.


Goodies do all the things i listed. Probably more than evils do. But theres enough goodies to go around, people break up into cliques and guilds and they fuck over people from the other cliques and guilds, and help out people in their own clique. Thats called parity. Evils dont have enough people to do this, even though they try to do it anyway. Then the newbies come, get caught in the middle of your bullshit, get fed up, and come to the goodie side where they can make their own cliques instead of getting stuck between the existing ones. Stop comparing evils to goodies. Theres enough goodies that being a dick can be tolerated to an extent, and the evils dont have the numbers to absorb that.

It’s not favoritism to friends, man.

Figure out what is wrong with this statement, and you will be a big step closer to finding out why nobody wants to play an evil.

Edit--
im not telling you the names or levels or classes of my darskide alts. Why not? Because its fun for me to go on as an evil, get treated like shit by you guys, and then log on as Thanuk and watch you after treating me like dirt 2 seconds before that. The exceptions to this rule are Turg Ambar and Gogk, who were friendly to me even when they didnt know who i was. I dont know if i ever told them who it was after that though. Ill give you a hint, theres 2 and they are both melee. I havent logged them on in over 3 months, so you wont figure it out.

[thanuk]

Oh and btw,

lets look at the main evil tank – troll. He is much stronger, and more agile than dwarves and barbarians, not even mentioning humans.

Any time you would like, ill gladly slap the shit out of you in the arena. You aren't as powerful as you think you are.
(This statement does not apply to Turg, who has pwnd my ass in arena enough times that i can no longer talk shit to him)

[Tanji Smanji]

[b]2Snurgt:Because evilrace melee is notificably stronger, lets look at the main evil tank – troll. He is much stronger, and more agile than dwarves and barbarians, not even mentioning humans. Also, remember about good hp regeneration which allows doing lots of stuff with just a stoner – and decide yourself. And secondary evil tank - ogre is like 2-3 times stronger than those, btw.

http://www.sojourn3.org:8080/phpBB2/vie ... hp?t=10982
http://www.sojourn3.org:8080/phpBB2/vie ... php?t=3868
http://www.sojourn3.org:8080/phpBB2/vie ... php?t=3896

Just makes me want to leap up and roll an uber troll warrior...

And if you think evil melee is so much stronger than good I think you need to learn a bit more about the game you're playing.

[Ruagh]

And if you think evil melee is so much stronger than good I think you need to learn a bit more about the game you're playing.

Well, Tanji, thank you for the tip, but Ive understood that already long time ago. Thats why my zoning SVS outfit is like ac-100 svb-25 svs-35 PFF, and with it I have... ummm... maybe like 200-300 hp clouds? They arent that bad, actually, as the ones in those posts. I can survive them quite well, and if the healers arent asleep, we can handle that. And now look at the skills which are Strength and Agility-based, and add the trollish advantage in STR and AGI. Go beat that now.

[Ashiwi]

And it devolves into the typical "Mine's Bigger" post!

[Llaaldara]

Any time you would like, ill gladly slap the shit out of you in the arena. You aren't as powerful as you think you are.
(This statement does not apply to Turg, who has pwnd my ass in arena enough times that i can no longer talk shit to him)

Can I slap you around in, and outside of, the arena some more Nukkie? :D

I had a list of 12 positive suggestions for established evilrace players, but then my boss walked in and I had to hide IE. Then when I came back my loggin had timed out so when I submitted, I lost it all! :cry:

Oh well! Doesn't really matter now with what's going to happen to the mud anyways. It'll all be exp and chat groups for a bit I suppose. =^\

Muma will be Queen of Soj then and rule us all mightily! :D

-LL