!good items

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Salen
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!good items

Postby Salen » Thu May 15, 2003 10:05 pm

While you are 'balancing' items, could you take an honest look at the
!good items that are currently available?

It occurs to me (and others I've talked with) that a good number of the 'best' items in the game are flagged !good.

Since every goodrace player who can runs to neutral to avoid Unholy word anyway, is there a need to further punish those who stay good aligned by making most of the sought after items unusable?

I realize that some of the items have a quest associated with them that leads to them being !good, but very few of them HAVE to be !good.

Please comment on the situation without the 'Well you could be neutral' comments. The question is posed about balance, not the way around rules. Currently I would think alignment-wise, the mud is WAAAAAY out of balance.

(Oh, and I still think Holy/Unholy should both hit neutrals as though they were 5 levels higher than they really are (50th pc saves as though 55th) to account for not being diametrically opposed.)
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Postby rylan » Thu May 15, 2003 11:41 pm

Agree
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Postby Aedaris » Fri May 16, 2003 3:36 am

Second
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri May 16, 2003 3:40 am

Amen.
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Fri May 16, 2003 5:08 am

I'm wondering what items you're referring to. The best +hps gloves in the game are !neut, as is the best +hps cloak (2nd best is !evil, 3rd best is !restriction). There's several options in the game to cover the silver bands issue now (sylphs, marbles, even those stupid BC bracelets). On the hitter front there's now several wrist items that are !evil and comparable to razors (*gasp* and thief usable), very nice on body armor to cover the evil only smoke armor. So...

And I'm sure you can find something more meaningful to whine about other than holy/unholy and being neutral. Go dig up one of your 'upgrade this mob cuz its not like it is in D&D' threads or something.
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Postby Deltin » Fri May 16, 2003 11:18 am

let's look at head gear
1k headband
that circlet from oakvale

both !good

well there is hood from clouds, addy crown from sf lol, not even close to being as good as the head band and circlet stat wise.
Scepter from clouds is !good, no good aligned equivelant that I know of.

so if you are good and a cleric you are double screwed gear wise. orb of power, clouds orb mage only, yet all others are both cleric and mage friendly. Well I could go on and on, but I have to get ready for work.
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Postby asamoth » Fri May 16, 2003 4:19 pm

Heh, there is something better than 1k headband, and I'm pretty sure its still in the game. Takes some actual work to get it tho. If I remember right its !bits or !evil.
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Postby rylan » Fri May 16, 2003 4:49 pm

We're not talking about extremely hard to get rare items that only a couple have. Look around at the average high level casters (goodie side). Most are neutral aligned with the same stuff... silver bands and 1k eye headband.
Then there are the good aligned ones.. we've got some cheesy helm or the stronmaus hood from clouds, and nightshade bracelets, with some slyphs around.
Tanji, we're trying to have a constructive thread here. If you can only give examples of extremely hard to get and rare items then you are proving Salen's point exactly. Do you see good aligned casters wearing gloves better than ogrehide and a cloak better than the mantle? And slyphs don't exactly cover the "silver bands issue"
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Postby Dugmaren » Fri May 16, 2003 5:47 pm

If you want to send me some short, concise emails about what you think needs to be changed and how, or added and why, go for it, Finals are out May 23 so I should have a little time before all hell breaks lose :)

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Postby Tanji Smanji » Fri May 16, 2003 7:39 pm

There's a headgear thats clericable and !evil that can be gotten by 4 ppl at most and is equal to 1k headband in many ways, better in some. There's diamond tiara for mages, also !evil. The gloves require 1 non-rare item and a quest. A lot of this stuff isn't extremely rare or hard to get, its just overlooked again and again and again.

I see quite a few people using faeralae cloak, I consider the AC and other bonuses on it well worth losing 5 or so hps, again its !evil.

Deltin, yer goin from an !good argument to a !cleric argument, 2 different things. I'll agree that cleric held items are pretty limited but none of the options for mages/clerics you listed, aside from clouds scepter, are !good.
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Postby Deltin » Fri May 16, 2003 11:31 pm

Ok so we are talking about balance.....
dagger of oblivion
undead trident (the one that summons the zombie)
clouds sceptor

maybe others could add to the list
what would be the "good" equivalant of these items

Tanji pointed out there is a one maybe more equals to wrist razors, to have balance I would guess this should be true of other items as well.

I always has tought that picking or maintaining an alignment was for prefrence and role playing reasons not because one has better gear than the other, which is the case for a majority of people.
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Postby Zen » Sat May 17, 2003 2:38 am

My two cents.

1) There does not need to be, or is it helpful to have, equivalent items for every alignment. Diversity is the stable of life, and there's nothing wrong with alignment restricted equipment as a general concept.

2) Non-equivalent eq is only a problem when the overall balance of items in the mud is shifted so that one option of alignment is clearly superior to another.

3) The issue, if there is one, is that the eq situation combined with the holy stun spell leaves little to no reason to be good.

4) The solution is to go write a zone! Either that or bitch at Dug, but he'll just make it an uber invasion rare if you do, so you'd best write it yourself. ;-) We all know Dug loves invasions.

Okay, so it's four cents.

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Postby Ruagh2 » Sun Jun 29, 2003 3:45 pm

And another "lets make an equivalent of every damn evil-only item" post comes. Guys, 1st, why should every item have an equivalent? When psilk eyepatch was duplicated for goodies as a usual zone item (fiery silk tattoo) , and hood of shadow dragonscales was duplicated and made !evil (stronmaus hood), I havent seen posts "Hell, create easier accessed Greycloak and make it evil-only", because that would be silly. Why not to create !bits items, unified for all races/classes/aligns, called "eyepatch level 1", "eyepatch level 2", "spanky eyepatch". "superspanky hard to get eyepatch" and so on? I could point out alot of goodie items Id like to see evilable, but Im not going to, just because I dislike the idea of absolutely unified equipment. Besides, we're missing the point that goodies can get usual high-zone items, while evils cannot. You've mentioned Clouds, eh? Remind me, when the evil group was in Clouds last time? I dont recall myself, it was way too long time ago, my memory is weak nowadays.
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Postby Wargo » Sun Jun 29, 2003 9:00 pm

Tanji Smanji wrote:as is the best +hps cloak (2nd best is !evil, 3rd best is !restriction).


Besides isha cloak, the best +hps cloak would be yuanti only 8)
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Postby Crumar » Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:14 pm

I play a good aligned warrior because I feel as a dwarf they are for the most part good in nature. Now I could have been a Barbarian and went evil and not had the problems I do now when it comes to eq and holy word spells, but I dont always play for the eq. But I do see Salen's point regarding actual good players in the game. It is hard for us to find decent equipment because a lot of it is flagged !good, even from a warrior perspective. I am currently wearing nightshades because I cannot use wrist razors and the musp invasion goodie only bracelet is almost as hard to get as a Tia item.

So is there a imbalance? Perhaps somewhat, but I am not here to complain. I am satsified with my char's equipment overall but there should be some sort of balance for equipment for the goodies. I have not played a evil race in so long. But I am sure the evils have some issues in regards to getting eq upgraded for certain slots like the hooded faerie dragon cloak. On a side note I do think that warriors (specially good ones) should be looked into in regards to getting better hitpoint equipment in zones. I can count 6 items on my char right now that took me from 1 month to as much as 6 months to quest. Choices for ring slots for warriors are almost nill cept for those fugly pink brass rings that are gonna get downgraded anyway. I see the caster classes with eq that they can just get without doing hard zones very easy and most of it is
!good for them as well and the good casters get the shaft too. I am glad that finally some hitpoint warrior eq was put into these newer zones but Soul Prison of Bhaal is comparable to Bronze Citadel, see my point? Please dont bring up Pirate Isle eq as some of the slots I am talking about for warriors are not even in that zone (with exception to the new rings in there that still could be upgraded to 65hp that most casters enjoy now). Evil and neutral casters have a few decent slots that they can choose from that they can get from a semi easy zone while goodies, and especially hitters have a choice of only 1 or 2 to choose from. I am all about high hp eq for warriors because thats what it takes for us to survive in these harder zones now. So please look into balancing the good eq and perhaps help out the evils too as they need more players. This is not a complaint just a observation. Thank you for reading this.

Crumar.
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Postby Salen Rescuepractice » Tue Jul 01, 2003 3:14 am

Raugh, show me where I saud everything needed to be equal. Go ahead, Quote it for me.

What I asked was if the !good eq could be looked at, since there is NO reason a player would choose good align over neutral. NONE. There is no piece of eq that people stay good in order to use, while there are numerous that go neutral specifically for eq. That coupled with the fact un/holy word doesn't hit neutrals means no one plays good alignment. If the game is going to be that way, why have alignments in the first place?

Rangers/Pally's have to be good, they are stuck with it. Everyone else who plays a good currently chooses to hose themselves when it comes to eq.

Since 'Balance' is the reason given for eq modifications, I was making a suggestion that perhaps the balance of alignment should be considered as well.

I got the answer I wanted, which was Dugmaren saying 'We'll look at it' in a few more words. He didn't say, we'll change it, nor did he say FU.

I got a few examples of where I'm wrong, that's cool too. Unfortunately I got people for whom it doesn't impact the slightest talking about eq thats not limited.
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Postby Deltin » Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:18 am

remember neurtals don't get the highly useful holy/unholy words if you are a cleric lol, down grade clerics!
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Postby Sarell » Wed Jul 02, 2003 4:04 pm

good align cleric headgear eh? *boggle* runed hood (good only) is the absolute pwn of cleric headgear sillies and readily available! wish druids could wear that one.... not sure how you think it doesnt compare to 1k headband.. 5 maxwis or SL which you can cast?...hrmmm..
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Postby Lazus » Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:07 pm

1k headband also gives 25 hp instead of 20 which the runed hood (hereby referred to as fuglyhat) does. And the headband has decent ansi (read: it matches eldritch rings) while the fuglyhat looks like a few easter eggs blew up in front of it. There are also other choices for good aligned headwear. One being SF Crown, although caster eq has enough svspell imo, and another being the muspelheim invasion headdress. It's not the best piece of eq, but its ansi kicks ass, especially with Starsilver Sleeves and Plate in your arsenal. Throw in some rosewood discs and some sun amulets, and you've got some mad style in the top half of your eq list.

I know way too much about cleric eq.

Lazus
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Postby Deshana » Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:26 am

Quote: while the fuglyhat looks like a few easter eggs blew up in front of it.

Even shadowscales hood is beter looking. it really IS hideous, i mean, wears the style love??



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Postby oteb » Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:56 am

You are all forgetting the biggest PWN of all caster headgears. Unicorn crest circlet with 20 hp massive -ss and fly is by far better than 1k headband. I would wear it anyday over 1k headband if only it was evilable
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Postby Salen » Fri Jul 04, 2003 5:57 am

First, the discussion isn't about caster headwear, it's about ALL the the slots. If there isn't a problem, why are 'almost' all rogues evil? If there isn't a problem, why are a large majority of clerics neutral even though it costs them a spell? I have said before, I don't know all the eq that exists, nor do I play every class. What I can tell you is, I have Det Good/evil and I see very few Gold Auras. If this isn't the case, please tell me where all the gold auras are hiding.

Second Unicorn crest. It is not better that 1K. You can not wear it everywhere, and it is 10hp less. As it stands now, the measure of caster eq is Prot's and HP. Even if it does have svsp, what caster that would have Unicorn is hurting for svsp? As for Slife vs. Fly. Anyone can have fly cast on them. If you are in zone and worried about loosing hp to wear wings, ask for fly. Your solution costs you 10hp, or, if you need slife, 10+whatever area you have to switch out to get Slife.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 04, 2003 8:02 am

What the hell is a Slife?
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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Fri Jul 04, 2003 2:21 pm

slife = sense life
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jul 04, 2003 4:54 pm

Salen wrote:
Second Unicorn crest. It is not better that 1K. You can not wear it everywhere, and it is 10hp less. As it stands now, the measure of caster eq is Prot's and HP. Even if it does have svsp, what caster that would have Unicorn is hurting for svsp? As for Slife vs. Fly. Anyone can have fly cast on them. If you are in zone and worried about loosing hp to wear wings, ask for fly. Your solution costs you 10hp, or, if you need slife, 10+whatever area you have to switch out to get Slife.


at least get the stats right b4 comparing it unless it's been changed in the last 3 months
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Salen » Sat Jul 05, 2003 2:28 am

So D,
What was the mistake I made?

Oh wait, to say 'It's 5 different not 10' would be constructive and thus a completely foreign idea to you. When given choices between 'be helpful' and 'be an ass', I guess I should have known which you'd pick. You of all people would have the ability to point out whether there is a good balance between items or not, instead you choose to sit on the sidelines and snipe. Glad I could make you feel superior.

I had always heard 30 (course, I could be confusing it with bands), and since I can't wear one, I never bothered to check. Had I paid more attention, it was listed by Lazus above.
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Postby Lilithelle » Sat Jul 05, 2003 5:06 am

AC 10 on silver bands is pretty nice, sylphs are ac 0 i've heard. and 5 hp less for the sake of -2 ss that most casters don't need. The best hp cloak in the game is the bronze one i presume you mean? And I think 20 hp gloves were mentioned. Both are anti-neutral, thats something that ticks me off. from what i can tell people added anti-neutral eq to try to balance people going neutral purely for unholy/holy word sake so they would have to pay a price for it. well as a druid that stinks, i have 0 choice in alignment i lose my spells if i leave neutrality. So I hope people stop putting that anti-neutral crap in. Clerics can be dwarves, shaman can be barbs, druids are stuck being low or modest con races. If anyone needs hps eq its them. Back to the good issue, it is about balance. eq is unbalanced, evils are favored by what eq can be used by them. Good aligns have less good eq to choose from. Considering the burdons of playing good thats wrong. I applaud all those playing good cause you know its for rp and not for game mechanics. So many people choose neutral purely for game mechanics, its silly. there's your proof of imbalance.
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Postby Vandic » Sat Jul 05, 2003 12:42 pm

From a dwarf warrior perspective:

I toyed with being neutral for a while, gave up on it because of the headache of align shifting.

From what I can tell, neutral warriors lose the potential for high-end items in maybe two slots, at least when compared to good align. Ever wonder why so many barbarians go evil? Evil warrior gear blows the roof off of goodie stuff in a lot of slots, either by sheer power or by accessibility. Hell, I'd go evil too if that wouldn't (a) completely nuke my RP and (b) prevent me from using the dwarf signature weapon.

Bleh.

-V
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Postby Dalar » Sat Jul 05, 2003 4:52 pm

Salen wrote:So D,
What was the mistake I made?

Oh wait, to say 'It's 5 different not 10' would be constructive and thus a completely foreign idea to you. When given choices between 'be helpful' and 'be an ass', I guess I should have known which you'd pick. You of all people would have the ability to point out whether there is a good balance between items or not, instead you choose to sit on the sidelines and snipe. Glad I could make you feel superior.

I had always heard 30 (course, I could be confusing it with bands), and since I can't wear one, I never bothered to check. Had I paid more attention, it was listed by Lazus above.

it's 20 hp -4 sv spell AND fly. learn to get some stats b4 you even attempt to make an argument. and you do make me feel superior btw Salen because I've already given this discussion about equipment balance MONTHS before this thread.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Dalar » Sat Jul 05, 2003 4:54 pm

Lilithelle wrote:AC 10 on silver bands is pretty nice, sylphs are ac 0 i've heard. and 5 hp less for the sake of -2 ss that most casters don't need. The best hp cloak in the game is the bronze one i presume you mean? And I think 20 hp gloves were mentioned. Both are anti-neutral, thats something that ticks me off. from what i can tell people added anti-neutral eq to try to balance people going neutral purely for unholy/holy word sake so they would have to pay a price for it. well as a druid that stinks, i have 0 choice in alignment i lose my spells if i leave neutrality. So I hope people stop putting that anti-neutral crap in. Clerics can be dwarves, shaman can be barbs, druids are stuck being low or modest con races. If anyone needs hps eq its them. Back to the good issue, it is about balance. eq is unbalanced, evils are favored by what eq can be used by them. Good aligns have less good eq to choose from. Considering the burdons of playing good thats wrong. I applaud all those playing good cause you know its for rp and not for game mechanics. So many people choose neutral purely for game mechanics, its silly. there's your proof of imbalance.
Lil


hahaha this is exactly why Gordex quit after BC :P
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Deltin » Sun Jul 06, 2003 9:50 pm

you can't just compare stats, that fly helm I've never seen or heard of I don't think, like Salen had said some areas you can't move if you are flying or drag for that matter so the helm may be a bad thing in a lot of cases. There's a lot of gear I would like to try (mostly weapons) but can't because they are !good. Well anyway getting owned by unholy words is getting rough maybe I'll just go neutral.
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Postby Yarash » Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:06 am

In response to Crumar wearing nightshade bracelets because there is nothing else available, I think Sunstone Bracelets may be nice good aligned wrist items (though I'm no warrior expert). It is a rare item, but relatively easy to acquire as rares go. Chat with me for further information.

Sylphs bands vs Silver bands: Don't forget that sylphs won't pop off when crossing good/neutral and back and forth. This is a benefit. My bands often fall off while zoning, which is a disadvantage.

The Unicorn Crest item sounds badass; I have never seen one and this is the first time I have heard of it. When I need to wear fly, I currently lose 40 hp (other mages would lose more). Losing 5 hp for perm fly would be a worthwhile tradeoff. Losing 10 and I'd have to think about it. In either case, it is a preferrable fly item to cloaks.

I would be against holy and unholy words inflicting damage on neutral aligned players. It doesn't make sense to me why a spell that targets alignments would do damage to people who have none. If those spells both injured neutral players, there would be little reason to play that alignment as well, thus making the problem worse. After such a change, many neutral players would simply turn evil I think.

- Mike
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Postby belleshel » Tue Jul 08, 2003 1:31 pm

I mentioned this to the staff a long time ago...

3 quests, one for each alignment.

A high priest of each alignment, who you can bring any alignment restricting item, as well as several quest items, and he will 'consecrate' the item, allowing your alignment to wear it (or remove al restrictions).

For example:

You give bone shard wrist razor, paradox cloak, crown of might, shiny black robes, suit of antiquated elven plate mail, suit of pitch-black platemail armor, gleaming two-handed bastardsword to the High Priest of Tyr. (different items per alignment but from a broad range of zones)

The High Priest of Tyr begins a powerful prayer, besieging Tyr to help in the fight against evil. The bone shard wrist razor glows in a holy light. The High Priest of Tyr hands you bone shard wrist razor.

The wrist razor is now good-only.

I think just to stop any whining about alignment gear, or several zone creators _obvious_ favoritism, this would be worth it, and help get rid of some equip glut. Anyone with some time could change gear to ther cause. Maybe add something to the item to keep rp in effect.

(Holy Glow) good
(Dark Glow) evil
(Gray Glow) neutral
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Postby Treladian » Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:37 am

Yarash wrote:In response to Crumar wearing nightshade bracelets because there is nothing else available, I think Sunstone Bracelets may be nice good aligned wrist items (though I'm no warrior expert). It is a rare item, but relatively easy to acquire as rares go. Chat with me for further information.


Unlike many warriors, Crumar doesn't seem to delude himself into thinking +dam is important for him compared to AC and hp. Razors aren't remarkable just for having hp or having 2 dam, they're remarkable for having hp, 2 dam, AND some AC, not a huge amount, but more than their closest non-rare counterparts, sharkskin bracers.

I would be against holy and unholy words inflicting damage on neutral aligned players. It doesn't make sense to me why a spell that targets alignments would do damage to people who have none. If those spells both injured neutral players, there would be little reason to play that alignment as well, thus making the problem worse. After such a change, many neutral players would simply turn evil I think.


The reasoning is quite simple. The deity whose power is being channeled still thinks you're an unclean heathen, just less of a heathen than those with a completely opposite alignment. But yeah, as things stand now, such a change would just make all the humans go evil and all the elves, gnomes, and dwarves pissed off.
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Re: !good items

Postby Ionari » Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:27 am

Salen wrote:(Oh, and I still think Holy/Unholy should both hit neutrals as though they were 5 levels higher than they really are (50th pc saves as though 55th) to account for not being diametrically opposed.)


SUCK THOSE HOLY & UNHOLY WORDS GOODIES!!! BWHAHAHAHA!!!

SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES FOR NOT ENVISIONING THE PURITY OF NEUTRALITY!!!

LOVE LIVE NEUTRALS!!!

Io

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