Yuan-ti and New Equipment limits

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
Dizzin
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Yuan-ti and New Equipment limits

Postby Dizzin » Thu Jun 26, 2003 2:32 pm

With the introduction of new zones like Soul prison and Seelie court, it appears the equipment limits are as dead as the dodo. Boots that are 28 hp -2sv_spe pfa and levitate just blow previous top end eq away. And with these new huge jumps in equipment, the deficiency of yuan-ti continue to grow. Now instead of just being short 60 hp and a bunch of saves and prots, each yuan-ti can now look forward to being short 70-75 hp and more saves and MORE prots. And what happens when the NEXT level 50 zone comes in and trumps Bhaal's eq even further. With no eq limits, the gap between what Yuan-ti wear and what a normal gnome, or human or drow just will continue to increase. And Yuan-ti innates did NOT compensate for losing the 3.5 slots before Bhaal, and now they're just falling further and further behind.

It's time to give yuan back their eq slots. Or give a choice at roll-up to be the current halfbreed yuan, or to be the NEW purebreed class without the innates and probably slightly worse attributes, but with ALL the eq slots. It just makes sense.

And I have decided that I shall use the Andy Dufresne method of getting things done. So... time for an email a week to the forgers!

But seriously, it's just something that needs dealing with.

Thanks.
Shuanerst
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Postby Shuanerst » Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:34 pm

Yuanti balance (and any race with different eq slots) is only balanced so long as the power of the missing slots stays fixed.

It doesn't matter what happens to eq slots that yuanti share with the rest of the mud, but unless the slots they're missing stay about the same in power, the yuanti are getting the shaft. The rest of the mud gets the shaft if tail slots go up in power, but since there are four slots that shaft yuanti and only one that shafts everyone else, yuanti are likely getting the worse end of any overall eq powerup trend.

It's a slow and insidious process. One that's hard to track. The only long term solution is fixed caps on any slot that is not available to all races. But that sucks and gets boring (in a mud without decay and/or costly rent).

Shorter term solutions might allow yuanti to restring items from a lost slot into their tail slot. This way yuanti lose one less slot (and keep the most powerful slot of the 4 lost). That's assuming the balance has degraded that far. I surely don't know, I'm not an old enough codger to remember back in the day before the eq started going wild as Dizzin suggests.

Tell me that my yuanti cleric is not going to find that he's playing a race that's gotten the major eq shaft please. (I expect a minor eq shaft, but I also expect that to be balanced out by other things)

-Shuanerst

PS the balance still shifts on power-up of eq that everyone shares, however it's less dramatic, but even more subtle.
Shargaas
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Yuan-ti

Postby Shargaas » Sat Jun 28, 2003 3:55 am

Yuantis should end up benefiting from the equipment guidelines as 3-4 tail items load in difficult areas. These items should see an increase in power to make them equal to other leggings and/or boots coming from similar zones.
Dezzex
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Postby Dezzex » Sat Jun 28, 2003 6:56 am

'
Gura
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Postby Gura » Sun Jul 06, 2003 1:15 am

bahahaahhahahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahaahaha Shargaas is funny
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'

Nokie wiggles his bottom.
Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'
Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
Savras
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Postby Savras » Sun Jul 06, 2003 4:10 am

I think Shargaas was trying to say:

... new equipment guidelines that are coming online soon that should see a sharp jump in the stats of those tail slots.
Llaaldara
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Postby Llaaldara » Sun Jul 06, 2003 6:15 am

"Boots that are 28 hp -2sv_spe pfa and levitate"

This IS extremely excessive. Are these rare loading boots? And/Or quested boots? Are the items used to quest these boots rare load? These boots are boarder-line tiamat equipment. They are too much. Tone them down. This is waaaaaaay over the top. Maybe +18hps –2ss or something, but not the prots and the spell and even more hps then falcon boots. This is way out of line here.

If you need help with how to design powerful, yet unique items, for your zones complete with elaborate quests to make them balanced See Savras and his Airship zone.

I hope the ‘new’ rules governing equipment stats are even more stringent then the previous/current set. I detest, to the highest levels imaginable, equipment stat inflation.

Cyric, what the hell happened here man? :shock:
Yarash
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Postby Yarash » Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:43 am

Zone builders should probably try to make more yuan-ti only items in new zones that have foot, leg and ear equipment. Such items should have slightly improved HP than non-yuanti equivalents. The total of the extra HP of the best yuanti-only items should not exceed (or be equal? (1)) the total of the best ear (x2), leg and foot items.

The current total of non-yuanti EQ slots is 73 (2).
The current total of yuanti-only extra HP EQ is 25 (3).
Total loss: 48

1. There needs to be reasons to play Drow and Duergar characters. Dayblindness is indeed quite sucky.
2. Two 15 HP earrings (sky-mental, distortion), 28 HP boots (spob), 15 HP leggings (naga, basilisk, flayed)
3. 15 HP tail ring (avernus), 55 HP cloak (quest item, mantle is 45 HP, 55-45=10 extra HP for yuanti)

- Mike
Bipple
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Postby Bipple » Tue Jul 08, 2003 5:30 am

I see perm levitate on a primary item as more of a detriment than a bonus. Who wants to have to remove their boots all the time in zones like Clouds or when they want to drag a corpse.
Dizzin
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Postby Dizzin » Tue Jul 08, 2003 6:06 am

Yarash, it helps to be more up to date on the very top end in eq to make this argument. Top hp earrings in the game are 18 hp right now, AT LEAST. The top boots are 28 hp. The top leggings from SPOB I'm SURE are more than 15. Also, The cloak from BC is 50, so the total that snakes gain from stuff only they can have is 20. The total they lose is 36+28+15 = 79. And that assumes that Spob doesn't have leggings that are more than 15 hp (haha). This means snakes are down almost 60 hp at the top top end of the game. And this of course doesn't include the other bonuses that sort of eq gives like prots and saves etc.

I will also assume here that Savras is right and this means that tail eq is about to get jumped up massively as a tradeoff. I dont know if that would be fair to other races, for snakes to get 1 item that can effectively cover 4 for the other races, but I suppose it's an easy solution.

Guess everything just depends on how all the Equipment balancing that we've been waiting on turns out. Let us all hope it is done quickly and fairly.
Yarash
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Postby Yarash » Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:32 am

Dizzin wrote:Top hp earrings in the game are 18 hp right now, AT LEAST.


Which earring is this? I only considered equipment that still loads. Not that it matters much; that part of my post was more of a set of data than an argument. And my argument is in your favor, I might add.

Dizzin wrote:I will also assume here that Savras is right and this means that tail eq is about to get jumped up massively as a tradeoff. I dont know if that would be fair to other races, for snakes to get 1 item that can effectively cover 4 for the other races...


As long as it is as difficult to acquire as the four items it is equivalent to, it would be fair.

The only problem I can think of is if a tail ring is built so that is comparable to several rare items, it would need to be as rare as the combined total of the other items. (For example, four items with a 50% chance of loading would have a combined chance of 6.25% for one single item. .5 x .5 x .5 x .5) The resulting item would be pretty damn rare.

One idea for implementation would be to have a few quests involving existing rare items (that the tail item is based on), to make acquiring the tail rings easier. For example, there could be a tail item where part of the quest would be turning in rare earrings, boots, or leggings. One extreme example might include trading in three or four rare items: a sky-metal earring, pulsating purple crystal earring, singed elven boots and leggings of flayed fire giant skin. The resulting tail ring might be 62 hp, ac 15, +9 int, +9 agil, -2 sb, pff, pfc, !w !t. This one would be based on mage and cleric items, there should be tail rings based on warrior and thief items as well.

I would also make a few tail items that would be equivalent to the total of four normal loading items. For example, there could be a tail ring that would be 45 HP, ac 16, +1 dam (based on silverish fish scale earring x2, hatori-skin boots and naga-hide leggings). An item such as this would be a normal load item, and be easily acquirable by most zoning groups.

It would also be cool to have lesser tail items for lower level players as well. For example, a tail ring that is 20 HP, ac 11, +4 con, -10 move (based on a wooden earring x2, hatori-skin boots and silvermesh leggings). An item such as this should be very easy to acquire, perhaps with a small group of 2-3 players.

As long as the tail item is as hard to get as comparable equipment, it's fair. Giving tail items better stats is a great idea I think. I would also suggest that yuan-ti get a good variety of those items as well (I think I've only seen three different tail rings so far). Equipment choices help make the game more fun.

- Mike
oteb
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Postby oteb » Tue Jul 08, 2003 9:34 am

The best tail item in game should not cover up all missing slots. Snakes should have some drawbacks since they have best int/wis of all races (thats what i heard at least) plus they are only evil caster race with infra (except shamans).
Sarell
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Postby Sarell » Tue Jul 08, 2003 12:12 pm

Agree oteb... my understanding is that snakes have good stats to compensate for not having ears n stuf in the first place. The tail rings were added to compensate for the high end influx in gear stats? So the tail rings should compensate for the extra 5 hitpoints or so that were added to make the new great items ... (and et earrings should be chopped) ... besides, snake only item is the pwn!
Dezzex
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Postby Dezzex » Wed Jul 09, 2003 9:09 am

For one thing, items are restricted to two affects, so attempting to make tail gear the stat-equivalent of 4 other slots is an exercise in futility, as we all know from full-body armor.

For two, I'm not sure I'd *want* such a godly tail item if they were made to exist, for the extravagant stats required to bring tail gear up to par would make them seem utterly silly. More than that, they're just a bandage to fix an inherent racial imbalance, and patching up issues like this with equipment which is ever-subject to change is probably not a good idea.

For three, yuan-ti stats are not good enough to warrant this deficiency due to slot loss. They hardly have the best int/wis, it has been raised only a notch from the deep dark (humanish) pits where it lurked before (at least we can attain a maxint notch now). They do have excellent agility since the changes. I am fine with yuan-ti stats, but they are not godly enough to require a so-called handicap.

For four, the ultra/infra point is moot, because some of us really do prefer ultravision for its benefits.

For five, all our names are confused with eachother and I get repeatedly insulted by somebody calling me 'Ssissu'.

For six, I like yuan-ti and am not in the same camp as Ssissu though I will agree that in light of the (more-than-5-hp-worth) eq inflation the rift is widening.
Disoputlip
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue Aug 05, 2003 10:13 pm

Just a clarification.

Wisdom for Yuan is very high. (duergar with 125 wisdom does not match 100 wisdom yuan)
Kurtok
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Postby Kurtok » Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:58 am

What about making neck gear also a tail item? I would imagine that a typical neck is about as big as Yuan-ti tail.
Never know, though. An ogre can wear the same neck item that a gnome can. :shock:
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:23 pm

Bring back the penis sheath as tail wear. Death proc protted snakes would own the mud!
Shuanerst
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Postby Shuanerst » Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:45 pm

I can clarify the int/wis situation

Of the int-based casting evil races drow have the best int (grey elf int), yuan a close second (gnome int), duergar a far third (halfling int).

Of the wis-based casting evil races, Yuan have the best wis (comparable to grey/drow int (no other races close)), duergar a far second (human/dwarf/elf wis), and drow just a little bit behind the duergar (gnome wis).

-Shuanerst
Wargo
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There is a very simple solution.

Postby Wargo » Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:00 pm

Allow more than 1 slot for the tail! If you read the description on yuanti's. Their tail just about doubles their body length. It is kinda silly to only be able to wear 1 item for that whole part.

One could even make all tail slots to be slightly different. The tip could be a ring; the thin section could be a band; and the main trunk could be a tail plate.

Just something to think about.

Yssilk
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Re: There is a very simple solution.

Postby Gyrx » Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:41 pm

Wargo wrote:Allow more than 1 slot for the tail! If you read the description on yuanti's. Their tail just about doubles their body length. It is kinda silly to only be able to wear 1 item for that whole part.

One could even make all tail slots to be slightly different. The tip could be a ring; the thin section could be a band; and the main trunk could be a tail plate.

Just something to think about.

Yssilk



Oooo, i like that!
Valke
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Postby Valke » Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:52 pm

The Neck! tis about the same size as a Tail! why not make items that one can wear around the neck for the tail as well!

Yuan-Ti get screwed it seems, make em smarter, !bash, Poisonous/Para (chance) snake bite, To me yuan-ti feel like a normal class minus the slots. But I love em:) Innate scale, +30-50 ac, inn Viper! +1000 dam at least! Bahahahah! Fix Yuan-ti would be a really good thing. Intelligence! should be like 130-140 Imho

I like the idea of 2 +TWO+ tail slots as someone had mentioned



Grp...... mates with orc.

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