EqStatsOverhaul and GoodVsEvil Balance bitching.Ok to ignore

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Ruagh
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EqStatsOverhaul and GoodVsEvil Balance bitching.Ok to ignore

Postby Ruagh » Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:07 pm

07/15/03 Areas Update:
- Just letting you all know that there are significant changes in the works
within the areas sphere. Consider this a teaser/head's up/warning. =]
Specifically we've decided to try to balance every piece of equipment in the
game. How, you ask, can we do such a thing? Well, thanks to Dugmaren, we
now have an extensive point system that takes into account the item stats,
the zone difficulty, the quest/fight difficulty, and compares the item to
all similar items. Needless to say it's a very complicated process, but
hopefully you'll all find it very fair. Some items will be downgraded, but
many will be upgraded significantly, breathing new life into zones that are
currently ignored due to a perceived lack of appropriate risk/benefit ratio.



The bitching No.1. Ummm. Okay, lets look into this new system... What will happen if you will do this? First of all, it will make the things “equal” (well, why not to implement my very old idea of “newbie item, lev.1 item, lev.2 item… levN item, SpankyItem, UberspankyItem”?) With making every item the same, you are shifting balance even more towards top hours-playing goodies. Let me explain: right now, with appropriate skill and knowledge of Faerun, you can gather a small evil group to do an item or two. With those items (well, like Decorated eyepatch, for example), you can with some time gather a reasonably decent equipment set. What will happen if good items will come from Clouds/Scorps/MD-only? The people, who are capable of playing in the big groups, will benefit, while the others will suffer greatly, because their life will be even harder. I bet a also alot of people will quit because of it.

The solution? Okay, there is a solution, in my opinion. Create more mini-zones, which will contain only 1 or 2 good items, and which will be doable in mid-sized high-level groups, or big-sized mid-level groups. This way you will allow people to have fun of zoning and getting something from zoning, even if it isn’t Uber-10hourslong-multispank-zone. You want to force people into zoning in the abandoned zones. Why? It is already considered “stylish” to wear the item with the same stats, but which is harder to get. Not even mentioning the fun of traveling into a long-forgotten part of the Forgotten Realms. (Personally, I’m just enjoying the process, even if I will not get a new shiny item from it). And if you really want to breath new life into the old zones, just change couple items in them which aren’t currently any good, into somewhat better items, there is no need in changing equipment in the whole zone.

Look, all the new zones are like "50-only, 5-hours-at-least" zones. Why? Alot of people just cannot join those zones because they dont have as much time, because they have logged to have 1-2 hours of fun, not to see the 10-hours long CRs when you are forced to stay and cannot even log off to have some sleep because your pcorpse will rot in 18 hours.

The bitching No2. Also, the question no.2 is the good vs. evil balance. Okay, I agree, implementing the idea of giving the fog to other classes you did a great step towards improving the situation… But – it is 8th circle. And there isn’t left enough high-levellers, who are capable of casting this spell… while newbies still suffer. If you keep the statistics of rolling, I can bet my prime eq set that good/evil newbie rates are shifting more and more towards goodies, because all the new evil people I see now are mostly old-timers or their alts. Why should newbies join evils? They can’t zone, unless they will be lucky to ICQ all the necessary high-level classes online, they hardly can exp. And yes, they are joining the ranks of the goodie cannon fodder, allowing goodies to zone even more. That’s the avalanche effect I was bitching about ages ago… and now evils are finally under that avalanche. The transportation system? Well, if you’re lucky, there is a gater online. If you’re unlucky, your group will walk back by themselves if they will die. Other planes? Well, theyre inaccessible as well – we have a group, but there is no gater among us.

The solution? Well, maybe this will affect the evils into a somewhat better way... Lower the squid’s shift/rift level, maybe globe of darkness level. Maybe ease up a bit their exp tables. You knew, I’ve almost forgot when I had luck of seeing a shifter online. And when I see a squid online, it’s mostly an old-timer – squids probably have lowest number of mid-level newbies (yep, there is a lot of low-level calamari, but they tend to abandon squid class, I think)

Well, I highly doubt that my opinion will be heard, but I have some principles, and one of them is – fight until you still can move. Don’t idle. And thus I am not. Yep, you are the Keeper… but the game becomes less and less fun to me recently. I don’t want to be a goodie, and I’m more and more pressed to… The only solution to this will be to quit, it seems.

Once again, I am just trying to be constructive and to avoid pure bitching in the "OhEverythingBecomesWorseNowadays"-style. PLEASE, AVOID POSTING THINGS LIKE “EVILS SUXXXX IN GENERAL, THAT’S WHAT I THINK”. Im trying to discuss my opinion on the changes that will affect whole Faerun. If you can post a CONSTRUCTIVE ideas here – you’re welcome.

WBR, Ruagh, the Bitching Prophet of Doom.
Last edited by Ruagh on Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Va'esse deireadh aep eigean... Something is ending...
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Postby icecillam » Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:35 pm

Low levels abandoning the psi class might have something to do with the issue list I posted. I did manage to speak to some people who abandoned their psi's and the feeling was too much work for not fun/balenced type class. Similar to oldschool druid is my perception cept without a pet and takes a lot longer to "well" people around.

I dont see much happening tho along the psi lines until the skillset is given a proper looking at, and I know Shev is uber busy.
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Postby Ruagh » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:49 pm

Some of my thoughts on the fragments of other threads which are close to this thread:

Savras:
Llandrien, if you can't find 2 hrs to put into running a zone, do you think its fair to get the same reward as someone who does?

You’re right in this topic. Although this is a bit different IMHO when it comes from 2-hour zones to 10-hour zones. Especially when it comes to revaluing all the available equipment in the Faerun. Yes, it sounds reasonable that those Uberzones should have better eq. But rehauling everything? Hell no! This may have some consequences to the MUD population, and those possible consequences look grim enough if you ask me. I strongly agree with Todrael that it may be a reason for many people to quit, and that it will affect newbies much more than old-timers.

What really worries me is the fact that the MUD is shifting focus more and more from the people who have skills/knowledge of zones/knowledge of quests, to people who can spend 10 hours in a row, bulldozing a zone within the 15-man group

not an official comment from the areas forgers: Anyway, downgrades ARE going to happen and while the comments posted here are worthwhile and read, I'm afraid theres not much you can do to completely prevent it. Generally, if you look at a piece of your eq, its one of the best in the slot, and it was very easy to get, expect it to get dg'd.

Yep right, theres very little that we can do. But Id like to hear comments (or at least make some people to THINK about this up there) – what will happen to the evils AFTER those changes? Maybe you should also consider replacing “evilrace-only” with “evil-only” flag on the Faerun items? Why rehaul it twice when it can be done in 1 run?

Todrael:
I've given away or passed up so much, because I was content with what I had. I thought I had what I needed. It just doesn't feel right to keep playing once that's all taken away. Why not actually change the zones to make them harder, like has happened to so many of the favorites in recent times? Are ATDs now a thing of the past? How can you possibly calculate the difficulty of a zone when it's so very different for evils vs. for goodies, or with a rogue/folder or without? How much is Loki's eq worth if you do all of jot vs. if you fold from smoke to the palace? How long until another massive eq change?

The idea of changing ZONES to fit the items better sounds better to me. And still, the question is unsolved – how do you plan to change the zones when they are different for evils and goodies? You know, one of my good friends (who has succumbed to the Goodies, alas) has told me recently "****** tells you 'ya, my solution is to play goodie to equip my real chars (evils), pretty funky eh" and “Hell, can you imagine how much of the high-end eq they (goodies – my comment) have??? I used to exp with a rogue who was carrying 2 spare vermillion sleeves in his bags just to use them as haste potions!!!” Can you point me a lot of the elite evils who are wearing vermilions? Basically, almost all of them are gone now, and no new 40+ evils have those at all. This is where the true imbalance is, I think. But… well, who cares?

WBR, Ruagh the Bitching Prophet of Doom.
Va'esse deireadh aep eigean... Something is ending...
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Postby Zathep Barra'Chath » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:12 pm

Look ill admit it now that i have been on both sides of the Mud, I started out as a goodie. And i have gone evil to play the other side. I do think that it is a highly over powered on the goodie side. And yes it would be a little unfair for us to get an easier time then them when equiping and zoning, cause we all are equal as players. But we do have to even the sides up! are problem as evils is this:
1) we have lost our pbase. evils have some of the best equiped best players around. They have been playing for years. but the have all left for a different mud or quit. leaving a select few behind. all the people a see left playing our very poorly equiped compared to goodies and the few evils who stayed. For example the whole vermillion sleeves thing....thats an item I can only dream of one day getting and would be unlikly that i would get it because it doesnt look like evils well get to do clouds or any nice big zone ever worth doing.
2) we have a sevear lack in players. im lucky if a see a cleric above 40 ever few days. And i spend alot of time on the mud. thats not to say we dont have clerics. its just they are all under 30 and end up quiting for goodies cause there is more to offer atm on the surface. That is our problem goodies have more to offer and all that stay is us stuburn wankers who refuse to abondan evils to nothingness. evils are a big part of mud. And there isnt much left of them.
3) we are at a large disadvantage on many quests. Its harder for us to quest high level spells and gear cause we dont have people to do it. i would recommend making different quests for evil spells or something. you Know how hard its gonna be to get evils to do avernus for a cleric to get ress?
Solutions:
The reason i didnt ever play a evil when i first started was there is a warning that evils is harder and you should start with a goodie. i think a good start right now would be remove that. Cause evils isnt much harder. and we look after our own beter then those on the surface. in the old days that was a different story. but times have changed. i would also recommend doing some stuff to give benefits to those who have made and stayed with evils. offer us something to stay. i dont know what. but offer us something. say a evil playes activly and gets a cleric to 40. award him cause thats a big thing to us. we dont have much of that going on. im not to say what the award is. Gods can figure that all out. But reconize that they stuck to something that was alot harder then a good cleric. and they did it for the benefit of the mud. cause that is the reason to play and evil. to keep evils going for the benifit of the mud.

In the end we are all trying to do the same thing. and Evils are just as much a part of the mud as goodies. So dont forsake them. And lets hope others like me come over and help keep them alive. and to get that the gods need to figure out how to attract people to us evils...
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Postby Savras » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:40 pm

Ruagh wrote:You’re right in this topic. Although this is a bit different IMHO when it comes from 2-hour zones to 10-hour zones. Especially when it comes to revaluing all the available equipment in the Faerun. Yes, it sounds reasonable that those Uberzones should have better eq. But rehauling everything? Hell no! This may have some consequences to the MUD population, and those possible consequences look grim enough if you ask me. I strongly agree with Todrael that it may be a reason for many people to quit, and that it will affect newbies much more than old-timers.

What really worries me is the fact that the MUD is shifting focus more and more from the people who have skills/knowledge of zones/knowledge of quests, to people who can spend 10 hours in a row, bulldozing a zone within the 15-man group


Well heres the thing, what would be the point of rebalancing only high level zones if you can go to a low lvl zone and get a piece of eq thats almost the same stats? The only solution would be to make ALL the high lvl eq much better than others available in the game and then you'd have people complaining about eq coming from high level zones being too uber compared to existing stuff (IE spob complaints).

The other problem here too is the concept of quests being difficult. If you really sit back and evaluate most of the quests in the game, they involve a lot of sleuthing initially then once the secret of the quest is let out, everyone does it in 1/10th of the time. Therefore the difficulty of quests are not static since often a large portion of the difficulty lies in first figuring it out.

If a simple quest (ie something that someone can solo most of) yields top end eq, then why would someone spend 5 hrs in a zone to get a similar item?

Case in point: gold dscale gaunts/leggings. For a simple quest that a solo person can do in an hour here of there it yields 2 very nice pieces of eq thats for the most part only rivalled by the top end zones. This effort/reward ratio is most obvious just judging by the sheer number of people with these items.

The second part/problem of this is that the first person to figure it out will then farm the quest (we know you do it, and you know who you are) ad nauseum and often daily ending up with a pile of the eq for much less effort.

The way to look at the easy quests is such: If its moderately long but easy and something you can solo... you just got yourself a decent item for free rather than bitch and whine because you spent some time doing something and didn't get tia eq.

As for the focus away from skill and knowledge, I think we're doing the opposite. Harder zones/harder fights in shorter zones require more skill than bulldozing through 10 easy fights. I personally love quests (just look at my zones) but they really don't take a lot of skill to figure out... and after the first time its often as simple as looking up the quest in your guild website.

Ruagh wrote:Yep right, theres very little that we can do. But Id like to hear comments (or at least make some people to THINK about this up there) – what will happen to the evils AFTER those changes? Maybe you should also consider replacing “evilrace-only” with “evil-only” flag on the Faerun items? Why rehaul it twice when it can be done in 1 run?


We've actually discussed this thoroughly for about 3 months before even starting to build the eq system from scratch. The entire system has gone through over a 8 major rewrites and dozens of smaller rewrites as we refine the process during the 4 month development process.

This eq system is a stand-alone project, it would be irresponsible to tie it to something like pbase which can (and has) changed over time. Yes there's currently a very low ebil pbase but that wont last forever.

As stated before, the eq system is tied to hard aspects of the zone and take into consideration all things from mobs formations, densities, procs, classes, levels, as well as zone types, layout, invasions, repops, etc.

Ruagh wrote:The idea of changing ZONES to fit the items better sounds better to me.


We thought about that, and after much debate decided against it. Heres the problem with that, exaggerated to make a point:

We have Divinity Crowns as a rare load on podling farmers. They are uber and everyone and their uncle has a crown as a result. We decide the fight is too easy, and move the crown to Tiamat. Now there are 100 of those crowns in the game that people got for much too little effort, and compared to the other items in the game in the same slot, its still uber. Does that make sense? This can be applied to any extremely overpowered item in the game... if we make the fight hard enough to be worth it, the item will be rarely done but there will still be dozens of them floating around.

It makes more sense to adjust the divinity crown stats downwards to podling farmer levels, then put in a quest or something to re-upgrade it to its former stats. The quest reflecting the difficulty etc that should have been to get the crown to begin with.

As for your last point re: high lvl evils, it really has nothing to do with the eq system unfortunately. Thats all about pbase and theres not much us (as areas builders) can do about that within our sphere. Ads will get rolling hopefully and that'll start drawing people in.

Hrmm... wow, I actually stayed at work late to write this heh heh... lets see how many flames I get :P
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Postby Zathep Barra'Chath » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:52 pm

ok savras, here is the question. is it fair to downgrade and item because somsone can twink it in an hour? cause i sure cant do gdscale quest in an hour let alone a week. so thats kind unfair for many....so what do you do? punish someone for being good at something? or do you downgrade it and punish all?
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Postby Bilraex » Tue Jul 22, 2003 11:01 pm

the current wave is yes punish those who can solo things beacuse they take the time and effort and loss of xp to solo something.
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Postby Sylvos » Tue Jul 22, 2003 11:51 pm

Zathep Barra'Chath wrote:ok savras, here is the question. is it fair to downgrade and item because somsone can twink it in an hour? cause i sure cant do gdscale quest in an hour let alone a week. so thats kind unfair for many....so what do you do? punish someone for being good at something? or do you downgrade it and punish all?


Well, maybe I'm seeing a different language than y'all but I saw it mentioned 'risk vs. reward'. So it seems to me that they consider the strongest you can make a group without going into specifics, i.e. 15, and judge based off of that number. So quest difficulty will be likely run from the difficulty of gathering the sum of its parts. Without giving anything away, the fights involved in gdscale or spider eq are simple. The hardest part about the quest is the running across the damn world.

Now, you can whimper and whine and bitch and moan about how they're punishing those who can do stuff solo by forcing stuff to be done by full groups. So take it the other way, let's say they evaluate everything as though it can be done by one person. Let's watch the mud get even more isolated from one another as everybody goes off to wank and solo this and that.

I tried to write a zone. Actually I've tried a couple of times, and the hardest part is thinking up the fights to justify the gear. How do you rate what's really hard versus a cakewalk? How do you figure out what that one shaman can do as opposed to a group of six? How do you stat equipment. This system will at least make that bit easier, people will know what justifies which. And in order for that to make any sense, EVERYTHING else has to be brought on line with that.

That means that the value of a deco eyepatch has to be consistent with the system. The value of that SPOB armor has to be consistent with the system. Nothing can deviate from it, otherwise it's just meaningless. It's easier to modify one element to match an array than it is to modify an array to match an element. What's more reasonable, ask yourself objectively and not as a player fearing that his/hers gear is going to be downgraded.

Ask the areas guys to modify a piece of equipment from a fight to justify the fight difficulty?

Or

Ask the areas guys to modify an entire fight of 1-12 mobs to justify the stats on an item?

Seems more reasonable to me to ask the volunteers to work with the smaller number there, don't it?

Just play the game.
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Postby Zathep Barra'Chath » Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:03 am

Ok that all makes sense. I wont bitch about it. but there is still the problem of what well the evils do. and what i say is makes a a few zones were there is evil only s**t that we can do in a 9-12 person group. kinda like DK vault. its has evil race only stuff, in fact there not to shabby of stuff, and thats aboutt he best zone we can do atm. everyonce inawhile we do brass. but hell evils do clouds more then we do brass. So why not make some evil only zones. that need a lil less people. that we can do. and have evil only stuff so that us evils cant complain about goodies coming and doing it. and put a few decent items in there. That is my suggestion to that.
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Postby Dizzin » Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:16 am

Savras, you bring up the point that the first people to do quests actually DO do the hard work as well as take the risks to find out if they're gonna get screwed or not in the final item (2handed magebane with no warning?! haha). Also they have to work through quests not working right or some items not even loading. *coughpermeating creamcough* So perhaps the first people to do quests could actually get a tangible reward for this. Not sure if it's possible to do easily, but make it so the first, oh, 5 people or so to do any new quest get 50-100 prestige, or bonus cash, or slightly improved item, whatever! Something more than the knowledge they beat everyone else to it, when we know that eventually everyone and their dog is gonna be walking around with it.

Just an idea.
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Postby Savras » Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:37 am

Dizzin wrote:Savras, you bring up the point that the first people to do quests actually DO do the hard work as well as take the risks to find out if they're gonna get screwed or not in the final item (2handed magebane with no warning?! haha). Also they have to work through quests not working right or some items not even loading. *coughpermeating creamcough* So perhaps the first people to do quests could actually get a tangible reward for this. Not sure if it's possible to do easily, but make it so the first, oh, 5 people or so to do any new quest get 50-100 prestige, or bonus cash, or slightly improved item, whatever! Something more than the knowledge they beat everyone else to it, when we know that eventually everyone and their dog is gonna be walking around with it.

Just an idea.


Heh you don't seem to recognize the bonus these people get already. 90% of the time the people who figure these quests out farm them every boot and hoard them... slowly selling off the rewards for huge profits before finally getting bored and letting the cat out of the bag :P

Quite a few ppl do that, you know who you are. :D
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Postby Sszantiel » Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:39 am

Damn, too bad I wasn't part of that 90% that did a quest I can farm =(

Don't you agree that this situation could have been avoided if a warning would have been given? That "risk" should not have been there in the first place. This is why I am asking for a different weapon. I don't just demand rewards for something that was preventable by myself. I feel angry for that ever being insinuated in the first place.

I know this is out of your hands Savras, but I still feel that it was a mistake made not by me and it should then be remedied by those who made it or whoever is able. Feel free to tell me why I am wrong.

I still think your zones are great though! =) Keep writing them!

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Postby Dezzex » Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:54 am

Thanks Sylvos, what you wrote is a lot like I spent 10 mins expressing then decided to tear down.

As for the evil/goodie issue, I fail to see how eq balance affects this at all. Do you guys honestly believe standarding eq across the board is somehow gonna penalize evils? Thank you but our playerbase does that just fine, and any ramifcations of the new system is going to be a pebble in the pond.
You say that the few items we can get now will be made worse in comparison to all the great stuff from other zones we can't do. Well that isn't necessarily so. After the changes, these same items might have lower stats, but relatively they will be be right where they should be among all the items in the game -- which will have similar alterations done to them.

And this goes for everyone who is whining about their poor little pieces of eq getting downgraded.. yippie do. You're failing to see the big picture. And if there are some items in the game that have better stats than yours because they're in an epic 10 hour zone that you don't have time to do, well too bad. There's no reason you *have* to have the best eq. Do you play for fun? Or do you play to be the best? Because the latter, by definition, is not just out there for anybody. And if you think you still deserve to have the best because you don't have the time that others do, maybe you should try playing for fun.
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Postby Zathep Barra'Chath » Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:26 am

Look as it stands this wont effect me really that much, i dont know what all the plans but remour i heard is rogue Eq is gonna get upgraded sligtly while hp eq gonna get downgraded. and im a rogue. But i look at this from the picture of those who started a year ago or two years ago...and would do ice cregg and have spank after spank trying to get newbe...or another zone and similar effects. Do you not think that was not a difficult thing back then. and they hold items as such.
So i propose why not just remove the items like that from the zone and add and item of lesser value. Keep those other items the same. but take them away and add something lesser. that way those who once EARNED the item get what the pated for so to speak.
As for evils we dont have the pbase to do any fancy 6 hour zones. And that bites. But that isnt a downgrade issue...thats an issue of people leaving and our population not growing fast enough to keep up. And i hope people care enough to find a solution. Yes i could go equip me goodie and go zone. and get the fancy items....but would that not be unfair to those who play goodies full time and have as much as me. Not really and if a goodie logged and evil for crap im sure my kin would not be too happy. So i dont...
So how do you keep evils worth playing? that there is the question, and how do you effect gear and make a fair system without screwing everyone up the a$$. And thats really the question at hand. cause to effect gear certain people well be effected. those who spend less time well get less crap. and those who live on the mudd get more. And why shouldnt they? they did of course work for it harder.
So i guess what i learned is we are all gonna have to bite the bullet and take one for the team. and keep on fighting. all i hope is that we try and find a way to promote the evils into playing. getting people to try the other end...Cause in the end i wanna enjoy the mudd just as much as the good races. So someday i too would like to go to clouds and seelie court and all those zones i can only dream that evils well one day do.
Good luck on finding a fair system that well appease the whole. cause alot of wankers well probobly quit because of this. and more power to them i guess. all i care about is getting evils back up to glory
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Postby Disoputlip » Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:57 am

I don't think evils should be upgraded. What is needed is initiatives like dedicated zoning on saturdays etc.

But. I have 1 thing for spellquests. gg-mask should not be a part of ress quest. Evils cannot get that mask unless all load outside wd and beluir.

As i see it then it should be fairly easy to get the fairly good eq, and then the last 1 ac should be hard. An item like onyx ring is balanced as I see it. Even though it is good then it isnt fantastic, but all mid to highlvls use it because it got fine stats compared to how easy it is to get.

I also don't think popular quest items should be touched. (eg. tribal mask)

br
/Disoputlip
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:20 pm

Sszantiel wrote:Don't you agree that this situation could have been avoided if a warning would have been given? That "risk" should not have been there in the first place. This is why I am asking for a different weapon. I don't just demand rewards for something that was preventable by myself. I feel angry for that ever being insinuated in the first place.

I know this is out of your hands Savras, but I still feel that it was a mistake made not by me and it should then be remedied by those who made it or whoever is able. Feel free to tell me why I am wrong./Sszantiel - The Damned - Hibernating


When I did that quest and got to the point where I had to choose a weapon to finish, I looked at my choices and thought "Hrmmm, a piercer, a bludgeoning weapon, a sword... the axe must be a 2hander." Yes, it really did happen that quickly and it was exactly that easy because it was practically spelled out. Most quests don't give any clue at all as to what you'll receive as the end product. I thought this one made it really blatant. Quests are something you're supposed to figure out, a puzzle to work on. If you don't put the pieces that are handed to you together, then it IS a mistake made by you. I'm not trying to talk down to you, but you really can't expect the staff to reimburse you because you didn't get the clues provided... especially when other people did.
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Postby Verarb » Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:22 pm

Savras wrote:
We have Divinity Crowns as a rare load on podling farmers.



LLies!!!
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Postby old depok » Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:37 pm

I actually look forward to the Eq coming to be more balanced. The best zone I have done in a long long time is SPOB. Why? Because Eq is not what determines who survives.

The HP EQ is out of balance right now. There are rarely big spanks of groups that know what they are doing. That is due to the HPS being so high that when a mistake is made people don't die fast enough not to counter it.

Maybe having a few evil race only zones that require less people to do them would help the evil pbase. Not sure. Of course then you will have the goodies saying things like "hell, bob the drow has this uber set of sleeves that he was able to get with 6 evils and i can't get the same thing without killing tia!"

The other thing is... how can we complain about the changes when they are not done? Let's at least see what they are before we complain.

In gods we trust!

Depok
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Postby Ruagh » Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:46 pm

Dezzex:
And this goes for everyone who is whining about their poor little pieces of eq getting downgraded.. yippie do. You're failing to see the big picture. And if there are some items in the game that have better stats than yours because they're in an epic 10 hour zone that you don't have time to do, well too bad. There's no reason you *have* to have the best eq. Do you play for fun? Or do you play to be the best? Because the latter, by definition, is not just out there for anybody. And if you think you still deserve to have the best because you don't have the time that others do, maybe you should try playing for fun.

I don’t like to repeat what is said, but there are “newbie items“, “decent items”, and “decent stylish items”. If somebody will ask me which one I will prefer, I will surely name the “decent STYLISH item” just because of its style and the fun of getting it. That’s why current situation is pretty much ok IMHO, with usual “decent items” scattered throughout the Faerun, and “decent stylish items” coming from hard fights in the high-level zones. That’s my own personal vision of the “big picture”.

Savras:
If a simple quest (ie something that someone can solo most of) yields top end eq, then why would someone spend 5 hrs in a zone to get a similar item?

Sorry, but you’re still missing my point. Since youre talking about the items of the same stats but with the different names/colors, explain me why restrings are so much valuable? Because they are stylish. Same thing works for the harder to get, thus more rare items. Because there is a lot of the “usual” items, but only a few of those, they are tokens of prestige, not just the sets of stats.

Savras:
As for the focus away from skill and knowledge, I think we're doing the opposite. Harder zones/harder fights in shorter zones require more skill than bulldozing through 10 easy fights. I personally love quests (just look at my zones) but they really don't take a lot of skill to figure out... and after the first time its often as simple as looking up the quest in your guild website.

Okay, once more. As an example, let me use the Polkadot cloak, which is definitely an example of a high-level item. You can gather a group, go through that “easy” fight, and voila – here is your item. But you need some knowledge to get there alive, to survive the fight, and to get out of there alive. The new system works nice, it’s calculating the spankiness of the eq of the zone nice, but – how will you assess the necessary skills/brains needed to get through those fights? And personally, I will prefer to go through 10 so –called “easy” polka-style fights, than to die multiple times on the short fight with the Drider Cavern lich. And, FYI, my enchanter is wearing Drider Lich Robe and Drider Lich Veil, just because it was fun to fight there, and because those are much more stylish than Loki ringmail/etc.

Savras:
We've actually discussed this thoroughly for about 3 months before even starting to build the eq system from scratch. The entire system has gone through over a 8 major rewrites and dozens of smaller rewrites as we refine the process during the 4 month development process.
This eq system is a stand-alone project, it would be irresponsible to tie it to something like pbase which can (and has) changed over time. Yes there's currently a very low ebil pbase but that wont last forever.
As stated before, the eq system is tied to hard aspects of the zone and take into consideration all things from mobs formations, densities, procs, classes, levels, as well as zone types, layout, invasions, repops, etc.

Okay, once again, maybe the system is nice in theory, but you’re still missing one of my main points – while right now a person with brains and knowledge of Faerun can gather a decent eq set with running through a dozen of “mini-fights”, in future, “if a person is unable to join the Really Big Zones (With Swarms of Dragons, of course, all the Real Zones Are Supposed to Have Dragons). Thus, right now evils can do the small zonelets because some of them have knowledge and they have bothered to use that knowledge and to gather a zoneable eq set. But, WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF THE EVIL MAGES WILL DROP TO 250 HPS AND THE EVIL ROGUES TO HIT10 DAM10? Correct me if I am wrong, please, but wont the mass exodus to goodies happen then? Yes, you are washing your hands stating “cmon, we are irresponsible for what is going on the Dark Side”, but in fact, everything is interconnected, the snake bites its own tail. You’re so very sure that, as you have said, “evil pbase will not last forever”… Well, I can only hope that you are wrong with that prediction :P The fun of the game is in the zones, not in the fountain-sitting while waiting for a necessary classes to appear on ICQ. Please, explain to me why the current avalanche effect, which is more and more pressing evils to join goodies, will suddenly change into a something better? Just don’t repeat once again that “the new eq system is very nice, believe me”. You should read more on economics and politics, because Faerun is a small model of the world, in which the same laws are working. Currently, an average goodie’s life level is notificably much higher than the average evil’s. That is a reason of the present evil->good immigration. Why all the people will suddenly burn with passion to fountainsit in Dobluth Kuor, instead of going to zoning from the gates of Waterdeep?

There are only 2 possible answers to this question:

1.We don’t know if they will want, and we are gonna change the things anyway, without any considerations and thinking about possible consequences

2.We don’t care.

Which answer will you choose?


WBR, Ruagh the Bitching Prophet of Doom.
Va'esse deireadh aep eigean... Something is ending...
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Postby Savras » Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:18 pm

Actually, i said the evil pbase is low and that won't last forever ie it will go up with a larger overall pbase. Not that the evil pbase will be gone :P

Restrings are so valuable not because they're stylish but because they are UNIQUE. IE no one else has it. Style != Unique.

Despite your long post, you have yet to convince me that an easier item should have the same stats as a more difficult to get item. *shrug* which is pretty much the whole point.

And of course, who DOESN'T prefer to do 10 easy fights than one hard one? Theres no risk.

If ebils suddenly had 20 DK vaults all with top notch eq that they could get with groups of 6, you don't think everyone below lvl 40 would switch to an ebil?

Its been shown and proven many times before... people will always go for the easier item before the more difficult one if they're the same stats. A small % will go for the more difficult one for bragging rights... the rest complain about how crappy the eq from the more difficult zone is :P

As for your comment that Faerun is a model of the world, you're correct.

The people who work 60 hr weeks can get nice things. The ones who can't put in the time and work for 2 hrs a week don't.

The factory that employs 600 ppl with an international distribution network can sell more product and therefore provide more for their employees including benefits and pay. The guy working out of his garage can't.

Yea, its not fair, but thats how it works. Unless of course you think there should be Sojourn Welfare.... any ebils who want to be on Welfare please post here.
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Postby Zathep Barra'Chath » Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:14 pm

#1 restrings are all about style. I a have matching set of gear except for a haripin and a cape. getting them restrung would be about styile. not l33tness. Cause when it comes down to it. i frown apon the person who has everything and gives nothing. and thats how i define those who call themself l33t.....but back to the main point.
Ok yes it wouldnt be fair to give easier shit for evils to do. Goodies would cry. and im sure we would have a few wankers transfer over. So i guess we established that were not getting anything back outta our time and effort we put in. i put in 5-11 hours on some days....for nothing. im a ebil so i dont get to zone. i havent got a new piace of EQ in a month. and its not like im uber equiped. i have Ok midlevel stuff. With this new code we wont get to do shit for our time. And the evil pbase well drop more.. Right now evils get to do brass everyonce inawhile. or something of that nature and thats all the zoning we get to do. And thats lame! goodies have been known to have 3 zone groups going at once and there is almost a zone oing at all times for them.
So ok here it is, ill say it... Things are different for evils and goodies! you point fingers and say well this is how this is. and people all have this and all about fairness. Yes evils have nice shit. but most of the extremly well styling equiped evils have quit. how many people are left still playing that went to tiamot? im sure more then half of the people who can say they did that are gone. So yes there are people with divinitycrowns. But im not one of them! so is it fair to drop an items stats because 100 people twink it then it gets moved to tia....so since that 100 have em lets drop stats. Well crap of that 100 i bet at least half are gone.
Some of the older ebils have some great stuff. stuff from tia and bronze citidel. they worked for but us other evils. we have stuff we worked hard to get from brass and questing, and smaller zones. the stuff your gonna effect and we have no way of making up for it and improving it.
So what does it come to? Do you recommend i go good and heart evil pbase anymore? cause people either well do that. or they well outright leave. But who really cares? In the end things well go back to what they were i guess and hell if all the evils quit Gods dont have to work as hard.

I just want my piece of the pie to. and i have yet to get it!
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Postby Ruagh » Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:29 pm

Savras:
Actually, i said the evil pbase is low and that won't last forever ie it will go up with a larger overall pbase. Not that the evil pbase will be gone.

Enough kidding. Smileys are nice, but the topic is too serious. You have ignored my point once again, and you have missed the 2 questions I have asked, they are still open:
Question 1. What will drastically affect the Dark Side to became so much attractive, that all the goodies will suddenly stop playing their perma-zoning goodies and will join the ranks of the presently fountain-chatting evils?
Question 2. What will happen to the Dark Side when eq will be downgraded? I knew that all my alts are geared with eq which probably will remain decent enough (I would be surprised if Scorps/MD items will be nullified), but what about the usual common mid-level evils with no goodie alts? You’re pressing them to roll goodies just to equip their goodrace alts with decent gear? Okay, youre doing a good job then, because many of my friends have already did that. Too bad that they now forgot to log in their evilrace ex-prime alts. You are still “washing your hands” stating that you are innocent and you’re just “implementing a nice very well-thought and balanced system” all over the Faerun.

Savras:
And of course, who DOESN'T prefer to do 10 easy fights than one hard one? Theres no risk.

Theres no risk? Go spank as a goodie within a good-race 15-man elite group, with plenty of good-race gaters/wellers online, and go spank as an evil within their usual 5-10 man mid-level group when sometimes there are no gaters online. Then you will feel the slight difference. Go do those 10 fights with a usual bulldozing good-race 15-man clouds-level group, and do the same fights with underpowered evil group who can marginally do that fight, lacking the key classes. You are still missing my point that if only the clouds-level zones will yield decent eq, some evils will not be able to collect their semi-decent eq sets which are currently allowing evils to do the small zonelets which they can do, and WHAT WILL HAPPEN THEN? You are already shifting the game towards USA-playing goodies more and more.

Savras:
The people who work 60 hr weeks can get nice things. The ones who can't put in the time and work for 2 hrs a week don't.

You’re making a very wrong example here. In real life, a person with brains who is working 2 hrs in a week could surely easily earn much more than a dumb worker who is hauling his cart 160 hours per week. I Sojourn case, currently a person who knews where the items are, could gather a small group which is enough for those items, go there and do them IF he has brains for leading this. And the proposed changes will shift the focus from the skills of that person to the time which a person can waste bulldozing a huge high-level zone.

Also, thanx for the offering, but Im not gonna go on the goodie-paid welfare, accepting the second-hand Clouds items, thank you. I would better try to solo Tiamat, delevel myself to lev.1 and quit.
Va'esse deireadh aep eigean... Something is ending...
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:04 pm

Then what, Ruagh, is your suggestion for them? Should they leave it as/is, since it's obviously the perfect system already? Should they weight the gear to make things easier and easier for evils? You've got an awful lot of complaints for not offering up any viable solutions for a problem that is still only imagined. You can't know how it will affect evils until it is implemented.

My personal feeling is that evils were more popular when it was still fashionable to believe they were sooooooo much more difficult to play. It was dumbing things down for them that ruined it, because they're not the 'elite' roles they used to be. Who knows, if these changes make it harder on the evils then maybe there will be a resurgence in your numbers.
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Postby Zathep Barra'Chath » Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:24 pm

Ok thats true ashiwi. you make a good point! what can been done. well here ya go. Dont do anything! we have pointed out what happens if you do do it. and you have pointed out that things are screwed up. So lets not do anything to gear and zones. add some new zones with nice stuff. and downgrade a few of the worstly balanced stuff or beter yet remove them. and keep things how they are for now. and once the evil pbase comes back up then do it. when we are in a good position to handle it. when we to can do 2 zones at once constantly. Cause right now were on our backs and cant handle shit being thrown at us....were not in a position that we can handle taking a blow. In all honestly not all of us are good enough to twink all the zones and quests. ill admit im not. and more power i guess to those who can....they have skills i dont have.
So i propse you shift your thoughts away from downgrade and into well how we gonna help the evils pbase come back up? figure that one out. get it fixed. then start throwing in changes that well force us to get off our rears and go do beter crap. Cause i really dont wanna use a goody to equip my evil. thats kinda like multyplay *peer*
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Postby Eilistraee » Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:30 pm

I hear there is secret code that will apply the downgrades only to eq worn by evils! That's what you're all worried about! Goodies won't haev to wear the same downgraded equipment! Time to panic!
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Postby Guest » Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:49 pm

Zathep Barra'Chath wrote:Ok thats true ashiwi. you make a good point! what can been done. well here ya go. Dont do anything! we have pointed out what happens if you do do it. and you have pointed out that things are screwed up. So lets not do anything to gear and zones. add some new zones with nice stuff. and downgrade a few of the worstly balanced stuff or beter yet remove them. and keep things how they are for now. and once the evil pbase comes back up then do it. when we are in a good position to handle it. when we to can do 2 zones at once constantly. Cause right now were on our backs and cant handle shit being thrown at us....were not in a position that we can handle taking a blow. In all honestly not all of us are good enough to twink all the zones and quests. ill admit im not. and more power i guess to those who can....they have skills i dont have.
So i propse you shift your thoughts away from downgrade and into well how we gonna help the evils pbase come back up? figure that one out. get it fixed. then start throwing in changes that well force us to get off our rears and go do beter crap. Cause i really dont wanna use a goody to equip my evil. thats kinda like multyplay *peer*



Why are you immediately assuming that evils are somehow going to be destroyed by this? The review is increasing some stats as well as decreasing others. Goodies are going to be affected, evils are going to be affected. I have read these posts and just don't see why this huge distinction is being made that this is going to slaughter evils, especially since you don't even know yet what effect it would have. Periodically we need to rebalance equip. It's happened in the past and is just being done on a larger scale. We also are not going to specifically make changes for evils just because people chose not to play them. If they are out of balance, we will certainly take that into account, but I don't think, and Shev will correct me if I am wrong, that we are going to start putting evils out of balance just to get people to play them more. What happens when all of a sudden there are more evils? We put them back in balance, thereby downgrading them? We are constantly looking to make sure that classes are in balance, but we have a shortage of coders (perpetual) plus it is summer, so things take time.

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Postby Yasden » Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:10 pm

WARNING: This might insult a few people, so don't read or reply if you have sensitive feelings.

You people are panicking for absolutely no reason. A mud-wide eq downgrade was done like this on Toril, and no playerbase was destroyed on either side. A few people got pissed off and quit, but it was necessary to help curb the rising inflation and overpowering. From what the news says, there will be many UPGRADES, so maybe if you tried taking the attitude of "ooh I wonder if my spanky boots of ettercap fur will get upgraded finally", you might see this system differently.

Ruagh, you're making points that are completely absurd and not thought-out. You do a lot of solo work and you have never led a productive "zone group" nor have ever been in one so how are you to judge what is right and what is not? Don't blame the staff and "hardness" of evils on your stupidity in doing things. In fact evils are just as easy as goods to play now, sans the lurking dangers in and out of some of the hometowns. But hey, even dwarves and barbs have that problem too.

Instead of looking at everything like it's going to destroy the evils, why don't you look at it as a benefit/detriment of the MUD as a whole? The mud isn't just about evils, it's about BALANCE. We have to BALANCE the eq for EVERYONE. People will start playing evils again, we don't have to do anything but keep our chins up and keep helping new folks out. Why don't you spend more time trying to think of ways YOU can help the evils? All I ever see you doing is standing up on your soapbox campaigning for things and changes that would either only cater to you or are just completely idiotic.

As for responsibilities of the staff to make things more fair to all, yes it is. They are completely responsible to keep this game running for us to play on. They don't owe us a damn thing, and Miax even *PAYS* for us to have a place to enjoy. So instead of walking around with headus derrierus, why don't you look at it like this:

1. The staff is evaluating every aspect of the game and its fairness, feasibility, and conduciveness to the MUD itself.

2. It's a game.

3. Just because things aren't done to your satisfaction and at the snap of a finger doesn't give you the right to incessantly bitch about the status of this or that.

4. It's a game.

5. Just play the game.

6. Instead of trying to fight against the system, why don't you try to find a way to work within it?

7. It's a game.

8. It really is JUST a game.

9. No one can make anyone play an evil, but when you act like a total incompetent jackass and make yourself look like a fool then who would want to? We have to try to play some sort of role-model figure.

10. JUST PLAY THE DAMN GAME!


Deathmagnet - aka Targsk
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The Evil Way

Postby Klandal » Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:36 pm

Perhaps the evil way of distributing eq while zoning in the past is the reason evils are so scared of the downgrades.

My understanding of their system handed the best and most uber items to those that had been there the most, leaving those newer than the evil 'legends' with mid-level, but zonable, eq.

Since most of the evils leaving were those top-tier players, the ones left have mediocre equipment which they're afraid of getting downgraded, further inhibiting their ability to zone effectively. I honestly like the system rewarding those who have played the most, but I also love upgrading newer promising players which would give the group bigger upgrades as a whole.

If this is the case, it was self-imposed. Maybe things should have been handled differently, but hindsight is 20/20 as they say. Evils have always prided themselves on being better than goodies, requiring less to do things not only because of racial abilities, but because they were just better. Step up and confront this as a challenge to your claims.

You may not welcome me to the evil side, but I love a challenge and am more than willing to explore the dark side to feel the MUD in a new way.
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Postby Savras » Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:51 pm

I've said what I'm going to say, I don't see any other way of saying it more clearly. Apparently giving out some more info is just adding fuel to the panicking fire so... I'm done.
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Postby Sszantiel » Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:18 pm

"When I did that quest and got to the point where I had to choose a weapon to finish, I looked at my choices and thought "Hrmmm, a piercer, a bludgeoning weapon, a sword... the axe must be a 2hander." Yes, it really did happen that quickly and it was exactly that easy because it was practically spelled out. Most quests don't give any clue at all as to what you'll receive as the end product. I thought this one made it really blatant. Quests are something you're supposed to figure out, a puzzle to work on. If you don't put the pieces that are handed to you together, then it IS a mistake made by you. I'm not trying to talk down to you, but you really can't expect the staff to reimburse you because you didn't get the clues provided... especially when other people did." - Ashiwi


So now ASSumptions are part of the puzzle solving process? I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me whatsoever. There are many many 1h axes in the game and I'm just supposed to ASSume that this one is going to be 2 handed. Do you seriously think this was done by the area maker as part of the quest to spice up the story? The area maker made at least 2 mistakes on the magebanes themselves; misspelling one and making a kama 2handed is the other. There is no such thing as a 2 handed kama. So, even if I am supposed to just ASSume that the axe is 2handed it sure as hell shouldn't be. Somehow in your logic, an ASSumption = a clue? I hope you don't teach any form of arithmetic. I just don't think that something which makes an ASS out of u-and-me would be part of a quest. At least any quest I would want to take part in.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:30 pm

It didn't make an ass out of me, I got exactly what I wanted out of it.
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Postby Ruagh » Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:38 pm

Erevan:
We also are not going to specifically make changes for evils just because people chose not to play them. If they are out of balance, we will certainly take that into account, but I don't think, and Shev will correct me if I am wrong, that we are going to start putting evils out of balance just to get people to play them more.

Okay, Im very glad to hear the calm and constructive opinion, Erevan. Let me clear the things up – unbalancing the evils to increase their numbers seems to be a very wrong idea to me too. I was just pointing out that shifting focus to high-end zones will affect evils more than goodies just because goodies are running high-end zones often, while evils are running single items/mid-level zones sometimes, thus it will impact evils much more, and since evil pbase is already in a quite bad condition, it may hurt the pbase. Maybe delaying the changes to the time when evils will be able to run high-end zones on a regular basis will be the solution to this problem. Another point for concern is that eq will be “equalized” and “standardized” in the way like “30 min boots, 60 min boots, 90 min boots, 6 hours spanky invasion boots”, and there will be no difference in going to one mid-level zone before another – because both have the same 60-min boots with different ANSI.

Possible solutions:
For those who is constantly missing my posts above in this thread and another threads of mine I will write this once more:
1.By implementing the idea of giving the Solid Fog to other classes, youve did a great step towards helping the evils, thank you very much. Although that spell is from a quite high circle, and there arent much casters capable of casting it at the moment.
2. Maybe it will be a good idea to delay those changes (which arent as grim as they may look… although I dont like the idea of “absolute equalization” of the eq – just soften the most unbalancing items a bit, maybe by leaving the same stats and by making them rares/more difficult to get. When a patient is in a bad condition, he should be treated with caution until he will be more healthy, thus avoiding strong medicines unless REALLY needed- its a rule of a thumb in the modern medicine.
3. Read Icecillam’s post. Think about squid class, which is quite vital for evils, and whom evils are missing badly atm, while the goodies have plenty of druids. My own experience in being a squid is pale compared to Ice, so I will leave this topic to him

Targsk:
The mud isn't just about evils, it's about BALANCE. We have to BALANCE the eq for EVERYONE. People will start playing evils again, we don't have to do anything but keep our chins up and keep helping new folks out. Why don't you spend more time trying to think of ways YOU can help the evils?

Okay, Targskieboy, youve asked for it. How can I help the evils persnally? I will tell you how. Let me remind you the last example, when we were doing polka under my command, since youre definitely hinting on that. We did polka very smooth, the group had 0 casualties, and nobody was even hurt badly during that run. That was under my command, because everybody else was “Ugh… I dont know Polka zone, sorry!”. After that you were bugging me to get that quest item to “help the other evils”. Well, I didnt minded to try it, although I didnt remembered it as well as I did the Polka fight. What was the result? The result was, as you can remember (and you were warned that I dont remember that part too well – once again, nobody in group was able to lead it, and the certain “people” who were able to - were quite busy soloing) – so the result was 1-2 deaths for each member of the group, and 5 deaths for my never-exping enchanter personally – remember, thats all for the quest item which is absolutely useless for me myself. I was really falling asleep on the keyboard, because I have logged to have an hour of fun at 23.00, and it has ended up with Cring till 05.00, while I was leaving to the job at 07.30 in the morning that day. And after that (remember how the Great and NewbieHelping leader Targsk has refused to lead it personally?) you’re blaming me by talking to the people behind my back, accusing me in hoarding items/being selfish?

And another your point, when you have stated that I am caring mostly about myself. Heck, if you will read my posts (and you, apparently, havent) you will see that I have said that my own personal eq wont suffer that bad, because it is pretty much elite from high-level zones. Thus it will probably just became better with the upcoming changes. I was pointing out that the mid-level altless newbies who are equipped with semi-decent but zoneable junk will be affected by this.

The most imbalance at the moment is the amount of zones done by evils vs. Amount done by goodies, thus leading to the distribution of good eq in the goodie favor. Offer some constructive ideas? My single idea is to care more about evil mid-levellers, showing them something beyond the boring exp, and showing them sometimes how to do some zoneable items. And what are your ideas? I dont see any, sorry… Show them more clear, will you?

Okay, dont read this, as you apparently havent read thoroughly any of the posts above, Targsk. Go pour more dirt on me now using your imagination, or just wait for me to lead another zone with you in the group.
Va'esse deireadh aep eigean... Something is ending...
Sszantiel
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Postby Sszantiel » Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:19 pm

It didn't make an ass out of me, I got exactly what I wanted out of it. -Ashiwi


The old cop-out; falling back on the axiom "Your posts don't need to make sense as long as you get the last word"

Well, touche. The last word is mine! Bwaha!

/Sszan =)
Yasden
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Postby Yasden » Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:47 pm

Ruagh wrote:Okay, Targskieboy, youve asked for it. How can I help the evils persnally? I will tell you how. Let me remind you the last example, when we were doing polka under my command, since youre definitely hinting on that. We did polka very smooth, the group had 0 casualties, and nobody was even hurt badly during that run. That was under my command, because everybody else was “Ugh… I dont know Polka zone, sorry!”. After that you were bugging me to get that quest item to “help the other evils”. Well, I didnt minded to try it, although I didnt remembered it as well as I did the Polka fight. What was the result? The result was, as you can remember (and you were warned that I dont remember that part too well – once again, nobody in group was able to lead it, and the certain “people” who were able to - were quite busy soloing) – so the result was 1-2 deaths for each member of the group, and 5 deaths for my never-exping enchanter personally – remember, thats all for the quest item which is absolutely useless for me myself. I was really falling asleep on the keyboard, because I have logged to have an hour of fun at 23.00, and it has ended up with Cring till 05.00, while I was leaving to the job at 07.30 in the morning that day. And after that (remember how the Great and NewbieHelping leader Targsk has refused to lead it personally?) you’re blaming me by talking to the people behind my back, accusing me in hoarding items/being selfish?

And another your point, when you have stated that I am caring mostly about myself. Heck, if you will read my posts (and you, apparently, havent) you will see that I have said that my own personal eq wont suffer that bad, because it is pretty much elite from high-level zones. Thus it will probably just became better with the upcoming changes. I was pointing out that the mid-level altless newbies who are equipped with semi-decent but zoneable junk will be affected by this.

The most imbalance at the moment is the amount of zones done by evils vs. Amount done by goodies, thus leading to the distribution of good eq in the goodie favor. Offer some constructive ideas? My single idea is to care more about evil mid-levellers, showing them something beyond the boring exp, and showing them sometimes how to do some zoneable items. And what are your ideas? I dont see any, sorry… Show them more clear, will you?

Okay, dont read this, as you apparently havent read thoroughly any of the posts above, Targsk. Go pour more dirt on me now using your imagination, or just wait for me to lead another zone with you in the group.



Ruagh, I've read your posts, of what I could understand from your redundant drivel. You DON'T lead zones, you lead horrendous spankfests that end up requiring 2-3 hours to CR. Why? Because you blatantly refuse to listen to advice or gsays. Don't even try to put the blame on me for your spank in UM, you chose to take it on and you chose to not listen to me, which resulted in the spank, dork. Try accepting some responsibility for your actions instead of making everyone else seem like the bad guy.

Another question is this: how in the hell would you know the amount of zoning goodies do versus evils? You don't zone at all, and leading spanks in UM or DK vault don't count as zones, I assure you. When you've done real zones instead of hoarding psilks to trade for your equipment, then maybe you can come up with a more informed and intelligent assessment of this entire situation as a whole. That ain't dirt man, that's the plain truth.

Here's an example from one day last week, when the mud had crashed/booted about 4 times, and we were about on boot #3 in the past hour:

You tell Ruagh 'did you already quest hermit? *sigh*'
Ruagh tells you 'Well maybe if you had asked me maybe I would let you quest him.'
You tell Ruagh 'foad, it's 3 minutes into boot and you've quested psilk 3x today, i don't have to ask you or anyone for permission to do a quest'
You now ignore Ruagh.


I would say yes, you only care about your own personal gain and thus have no valid excuse for complaining about any benefits or detriments to the evils at all.

I don't need to give ideas for bettering things. Why? Because I just do stuff and lead things and exp people instead of sitting on my arse all day thinking of things to cry about. And it was me who gave ideas for some of the warrior fixes that you're enjoying right now, btw.

That is all.

Deathmagnet

Oh yes, edited and added this: I'm gonna be the bigger man and just let this go right now. No more posts from me. Have fun with your thread. :)
Ruagh
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Postby Ruagh » Thu Jul 24, 2003 7:21 pm

You tell Ruagh 'did you already quest hermit? *sigh*'
Ruagh tells you 'Well maybe if you had asked me maybe I would let you quest him.'
You tell Ruagh 'foad, it's 3 minutes into boot and you've quested psilk 3x today, i don't have to ask you or anyone for permission to do a quest'
You now ignore Ruagh.


Okay, you've decided to use your imagination this time, I guess... Im not blaming YOU in the last UM spank. Yes, it was MY mistake, and I am the one who is responsible for it, and I should better fountainsit myself and let other to fountainsit next time. I also dont want to convert this thread into a personal flame war between me and you. Im not writing down all the items I have ever handed down to others, but, when you were doing the stuff "for my fellow clannies, of course!", I was doing the same stuff "for other evils". Feel the difference. I wont write on this very issue anymore, although I have disliked the way you were lying to others about me behind my back. Besides, the one above is a very, heh, twisted version of that conversation.

Old Depok:
Maybe having a few evil race only zones that require less people to do them would help the evil pbase. Not sure. Of course then you will have the goodies saying things like "hell, bob the drow has this uber set of sleeves that he was able to get with 6 evils and i can't get the same thing without killing tia!"

One word: Dobluth Kuor vault. Goodies are already uber-jealous on this evil players-only and evil eq-only zone. I bet their whinning about ravenars has pushed the upcoming eq changes well enough. So this is no-go, especially with this new eq-nerfing system. Besides, its prolly a really bad idea to make the life easier for the evils personally.
Va'esse deireadh aep eigean... Something is ending...
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Shevarash
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Jul 24, 2003 7:52 pm

Chicken Little tells you 'the sky is falling!'
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
Shar
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Postby Shar » Thu Jul 24, 2003 7:55 pm

I can't believe I just read this *entire* thread.

*pokes eyes out with forks*
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD

Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]

Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:25 am

i'd just like to say this:
I feel sorry for anybody who had to read both of these threads.

As to the people bitching:
Where were you 8 months ago when the high-end players were already complaining about this?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'

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