Since people can't read, removing my posts.
[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 04-17-2001).]
Down with invokers
I love the ranger class personally.... But I got some ideas you might like....
1)Add the entire invoker spell list to the rangers
2)Multiply spell damage by 2, reduce mem times to 1 second per circle
3)Give mastered triple attack to all level 5 rangers
4)Give rangers innate haste/blur for speed, bark/stone/dscales for protection, moonwell for travel, summon ele/spirit for pets, steal and pick, throw a few big heal spells in there, maybe ress, maybe a few other massive damage spells (wait, with invoker list, they have all the "major damage spells"), and a few other nice utility spells (fly, locate obj, summon, etc.)
5)Give rangers base ac of -80 (so they can concentrate on +hit/dam eq)
6)Delete all other classes
7)Sit back and enjoy an import while you and 14 other rangers do tiamat
Just some suggestions... what you think?
Galkar -What are you doing!- da Ranger
1)Add the entire invoker spell list to the rangers
2)Multiply spell damage by 2, reduce mem times to 1 second per circle
3)Give mastered triple attack to all level 5 rangers
4)Give rangers innate haste/blur for speed, bark/stone/dscales for protection, moonwell for travel, summon ele/spirit for pets, steal and pick, throw a few big heal spells in there, maybe ress, maybe a few other massive damage spells (wait, with invoker list, they have all the "major damage spells"), and a few other nice utility spells (fly, locate obj, summon, etc.)
5)Give rangers base ac of -80 (so they can concentrate on +hit/dam eq)
6)Delete all other classes
7)Sit back and enjoy an import while you and 14 other rangers do tiamat
Just some suggestions... what you think?
Galkar -What are you doing!- da Ranger
Malacar -
Valeos hit me with a 400 point prismatic spray in the arena. That means that with the right combination of colors, you can do damage around where acid storm is.
Pris spray is a spell that inflicts status effects, with a small chance to do incredible damage. Sounds like the enchanter equivalent of blacklight burst.
- Ragorn
Valeos hit me with a 400 point prismatic spray in the arena. That means that with the right combination of colors, you can do damage around where acid storm is.
Pris spray is a spell that inflicts status effects, with a small chance to do incredible damage. Sounds like the enchanter equivalent of blacklight burst.
- Ragorn
My point is, you're complaining about one or two spells Invokers have which don't get cast in zones much. Ooh, blacklight burst slows 1% of the time, and thunderblast stuns 1% of the time. You inferred that enchanters should get some kind of damage spell.
Then I pointed out that enchanters have the reverse of blacklight burst.. that is, a status spell that has a low chance of doing big damage.
Hell, I'm all for group globe or group stone or something. Would cut down on those 2 minute spellups that leave you 2 minutes to fight before the hastes drop. Maybe a single-target prismatic blast around 5th circle. Damage spells? I don't think that's a good idea. Every class is starting to get Invokerized.. I don't think Enchanters need a spiffy 10th circle area damage spell.
- Ragorn
Then I pointed out that enchanters have the reverse of blacklight burst.. that is, a status spell that has a low chance of doing big damage.
Hell, I'm all for group globe or group stone or something. Would cut down on those 2 minute spellups that leave you 2 minutes to fight before the hastes drop. Maybe a single-target prismatic blast around 5th circle. Damage spells? I don't think that's a good idea. Every class is starting to get Invokerized.. I don't think Enchanters need a spiffy 10th circle area damage spell.
- Ragorn
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lyt:
<B>Hey be nice to Ragorn. Only I am allowed to be mean to him.
Lyt the Taunter</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Posession is 9 parts of the law :P
Incidentally... on the topic of vokerlike damage... I have heard much about druids now doing generous damage. Yet, it would seem to me that, just as before they didnt' get dam until 10th circle, now they still don't get any really impressive dam until 8th or so. I've heard that call lightning has been tweaked tho (to make up for its massive limitations), so I may be wrong.
Here's what I'm getting at: why is everyone obsessed with talking about fairly high level spell damage? I know the focus here on this MUD has almost always been on the highlevels... but sometimes I wonder if we aren't neglecting the midlevels (where many people spend a ton of their time)?
<B>Hey be nice to Ragorn. Only I am allowed to be mean to him.
Lyt the Taunter</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Posession is 9 parts of the law :P
Incidentally... on the topic of vokerlike damage... I have heard much about druids now doing generous damage. Yet, it would seem to me that, just as before they didnt' get dam until 10th circle, now they still don't get any really impressive dam until 8th or so. I've heard that call lightning has been tweaked tho (to make up for its massive limitations), so I may be wrong.
Here's what I'm getting at: why is everyone obsessed with talking about fairly high level spell damage? I know the focus here on this MUD has almost always been on the highlevels... but sometimes I wonder if we aren't neglecting the midlevels (where many people spend a ton of their time)?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
Valeos hit me with a 400 point prismatic spray in the arena. That means that with the right combination of colors, you can do damage around where acid storm is.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just wanted to point out that PC-PC damage works on a different scale than PC-NPC damage...sooo, measuring actual spell damage by arena damage is not at all accurate.
<B>
Valeos hit me with a 400 point prismatic spray in the arena. That means that with the right combination of colors, you can do damage around where acid storm is.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just wanted to point out that PC-PC damage works on a different scale than PC-NPC damage...sooo, measuring actual spell damage by arena damage is not at all accurate.
Hrm... let's recap that.
Ragorn: Uses blacklight burst and pris spray as an example.
Malacar: Almost overusing sarcasm, nearly injures himself in the process!
Ragorn: Explains his point in plain english, with direct comparison of an invoker damage/affect spell and an enchanter effect/damage spell. Then makes his own suggestion on what enchanters should get.
Malacar: Says Ragorn is "...Not too quick on the draw.." And a couple other choice flames.
Ok... that's far enough to prove my point. Ragorn was just discussing enchanters and what they had, and what he would like to see them get. Then Malacar comes in, calls Ragorn an idiot and then bitches at him for flaming. Odd that...
Sarvis
Ragorn: Uses blacklight burst and pris spray as an example.
Malacar: Almost overusing sarcasm, nearly injures himself in the process!
Ragorn: Explains his point in plain english, with direct comparison of an invoker damage/affect spell and an enchanter effect/damage spell. Then makes his own suggestion on what enchanters should get.
Malacar: Says Ragorn is "...Not too quick on the draw.." And a couple other choice flames.
Ok... that's far enough to prove my point. Ragorn was just discussing enchanters and what they had, and what he would like to see them get. Then Malacar comes in, calls Ragorn an idiot and then bitches at him for flaming. Odd that...
Sarvis
You know what? Not even worth my time. It's amazing to see how ideas and opinions can't be posted on this board thanks to assholes.
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Mal
PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 04-17-2001).]
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Mal
PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 04-17-2001).]
It's ok Sarvis, I did miss the point of what he was trying to say.
Malacar, you're usually a calm and thoughtful poster. Until someone challenges something you say, in which case you get defensive and bring out the heavy sarcasm. Nobody is doubting that enchanters could use a couple new gimmicks, especially at lower levels. I don't think blacklight burst and thunderblast (thunderburst? thunderclap? thunderdance? I don't know anymore) are putting any enchanters out of a job. No enchanter takes the time to try to cast slow or minor paralysis during large zone battles. Having an Invoker area spell produce the same effect every now and then is just a nice bonus for the group.
- Ragorn
Malacar, you're usually a calm and thoughtful poster. Until someone challenges something you say, in which case you get defensive and bring out the heavy sarcasm. Nobody is doubting that enchanters could use a couple new gimmicks, especially at lower levels. I don't think blacklight burst and thunderblast (thunderburst? thunderclap? thunderdance? I don't know anymore) are putting any enchanters out of a job. No enchanter takes the time to try to cast slow or minor paralysis during large zone battles. Having an Invoker area spell produce the same effect every now and then is just a nice bonus for the group.
- Ragorn
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shevarash:
Just wanted to point out that PC-PC damage works on a different scale than PC-NPC damage...sooo, measuring actual spell damage by arena damage is not at all accurate. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is it not still accurate for comparing spells? If force missile hits me for 400 and sandstorm hits me for 300, it is accurate to say that force missiles are 33% stronger against mobs than sandstorm?
Numbers are arbitrary.
- Ragorn
Just wanted to point out that PC-PC damage works on a different scale than PC-NPC damage...sooo, measuring actual spell damage by arena damage is not at all accurate. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is it not still accurate for comparing spells? If force missile hits me for 400 and sandstorm hits me for 300, it is accurate to say that force missiles are 33% stronger against mobs than sandstorm?
Numbers are arbitrary.
- Ragorn
If you'd bothered to read my other posts, you'd find out why I said what I said. Let me go into detail here, so that my point comes across without people attempting to get involved in this and start a war, Like Sarvis. And Sarvis, your post was uncalled for. This involved Ragorn and I, not you, or any of your flunkies, so seriously, stay out of it unless you have a constructive post.
FYI - Ragorn, I am posting this for you, to hopefully put this to bed. It's an arguement, not a discussion, and it's gotten old. I'm pretty sure you are as tired of it as I am.
Slowness isn't cast in big groups for one reason. It's not area effect. If it was, we'd be casting it left and right. We have -nothing- to do in a fight as it stands except toss a pris(which sucks and doesn't even show on damage charts for cstat), or maybe a chain lightning(laughable damage anyways). We want to do status effects. Plain and simple. Invokers have what we want. An area effect status spell. Name one that we have aside from pris, which is unreliable at best. NONE. Not a single one. I've made a lot of suggestions to the gods in regards to this, and was told a lot of them are actually feasible and make sense. I don't hold my breath, but they come from an educated standpoint, where I've played an enchanter for months on end. I'm not sure if you have or not, but if you have, you'd know that it's tiresome to see invokers doing a status effect we're not capable of. Yes, the spell does damage. No, I never ever suggested to give it to enchanters in it's current state. I said IF we didn, which I never expected, that I would want the damage downgraded to less than chain. All I wanted was area slow, but with my suggestions to the gods, this may come to us anyways, so I really don't give a fig if they keep it or not.
Plain and simple, my post was targetting(perhaps too subtly) area effect anomalies. Something that Enchanters are supposed to be masters of, them being enchantments and all. But we don't get these, and the masters of damage do. Even if it went off only 1% of the time.
Slow is in a circle for enchanters than coincides with stone. We can't afford to mem more than 1 or two in big zones, though I've gotten away with 4. Even then, it gets resisted a lot, and perhaps it effects 1 or 2 mobs. Maybe. With area effects, we get a couple of shots at something.
FYI - It's not just slow. It's every status effect anomaly type spell. We need more than just one.
Does this answer your questions any better? If not, instead of telling me I'm a dork, that I don't know this, that I don't know that, or whetever, tell me why you disagree. I know more than you give me credit for. I may not have been around as 'Malacar' the past couple of years, but I WAS around.
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Mal
PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
FYI - Ragorn, I am posting this for you, to hopefully put this to bed. It's an arguement, not a discussion, and it's gotten old. I'm pretty sure you are as tired of it as I am.
Slowness isn't cast in big groups for one reason. It's not area effect. If it was, we'd be casting it left and right. We have -nothing- to do in a fight as it stands except toss a pris(which sucks and doesn't even show on damage charts for cstat), or maybe a chain lightning(laughable damage anyways). We want to do status effects. Plain and simple. Invokers have what we want. An area effect status spell. Name one that we have aside from pris, which is unreliable at best. NONE. Not a single one. I've made a lot of suggestions to the gods in regards to this, and was told a lot of them are actually feasible and make sense. I don't hold my breath, but they come from an educated standpoint, where I've played an enchanter for months on end. I'm not sure if you have or not, but if you have, you'd know that it's tiresome to see invokers doing a status effect we're not capable of. Yes, the spell does damage. No, I never ever suggested to give it to enchanters in it's current state. I said IF we didn, which I never expected, that I would want the damage downgraded to less than chain. All I wanted was area slow, but with my suggestions to the gods, this may come to us anyways, so I really don't give a fig if they keep it or not.
Plain and simple, my post was targetting(perhaps too subtly) area effect anomalies. Something that Enchanters are supposed to be masters of, them being enchantments and all. But we don't get these, and the masters of damage do. Even if it went off only 1% of the time.
Slow is in a circle for enchanters than coincides with stone. We can't afford to mem more than 1 or two in big zones, though I've gotten away with 4. Even then, it gets resisted a lot, and perhaps it effects 1 or 2 mobs. Maybe. With area effects, we get a couple of shots at something.
FYI - It's not just slow. It's every status effect anomaly type spell. We need more than just one.
Does this answer your questions any better? If not, instead of telling me I'm a dork, that I don't know this, that I don't know that, or whetever, tell me why you disagree. I know more than you give me credit for. I may not have been around as 'Malacar' the past couple of years, but I WAS around.
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Mal
PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
I have flunkies?!? Where? *peer* C'mon... I could prolly get them to do all sorts of useful things for me! Well if yer out there guys, can you please go out and get me a gleaming holy longsword? Ahh... gotta love flunkies... 
Ok... now Malacar, your last post was good... in fact I agree with it completely. I also agree with things like group haste and such (I love haste) to help enchanters out, and I often (ok, sometimes) post ideas on how to give enchanters extra exp in battles and such. But I don't see what you are so pissed about atm. I just did a search of all the pages and the word "dork" doesn't appear at all except in your own post. Unless it got edited out, I don't think anyone called you one... nor can I remember anyone flaming you. Just Ragorn expressing his opinion then getting bitched at by you.
Now... on to a spell idea:
Icy Field
An enchantment placed upon the ground that makes the ground impossible to move on. Things such as switching and bashing become nearly impossible for everyone in the area.
Basically this would drastically lower the chances of being bashed or switched to, would be good for big mobs and such that couldn't be bashed I think. I dunno... just an idea... could mess with it to make it better.
Sarvis
Ok... now Malacar, your last post was good... in fact I agree with it completely. I also agree with things like group haste and such (I love haste) to help enchanters out, and I often (ok, sometimes) post ideas on how to give enchanters extra exp in battles and such. But I don't see what you are so pissed about atm. I just did a search of all the pages and the word "dork" doesn't appear at all except in your own post. Unless it got edited out, I don't think anyone called you one... nor can I remember anyone flaming you. Just Ragorn expressing his opinion then getting bitched at by you.
Now... on to a spell idea:
Icy Field
An enchantment placed upon the ground that makes the ground impossible to move on. Things such as switching and bashing become nearly impossible for everyone in the area.
Basically this would drastically lower the chances of being bashed or switched to, would be good for big mobs and such that couldn't be bashed I think. I dunno... just an idea... could mess with it to make it better.
Sarvis
To be honest, I wasn't pissed until I got the 'shit' remark from Ragorn. Until then I viewed this thread as mostly humorous.
Part of it is agitation in RL too. I'm the only one in the escalation center today, and getting trounced with calls and annoying stuff. I might have been over(more than normal) sarcastic, but wasn't mad til that point.
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Mal
PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
Part of it is agitation in RL too. I'm the only one in the escalation center today, and getting trounced with calls and annoying stuff. I might have been over(more than normal) sarcastic, but wasn't mad til that point.
------------------
Mal
PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
Galkar:
I agree from a philosophical level that invokers should be removed so that a melee class can take over doing damage. Alas, Miax has made it quite clear that invokers will remain, and that they will do most of the damage dealing. He then challenged us to come up with a way of, at least partially, linking invoker damage to their worn eq. Thats about when this whole off-topic flamewar started. Oh well.
Corth
I agree from a philosophical level that invokers should be removed so that a melee class can take over doing damage. Alas, Miax has made it quite clear that invokers will remain, and that they will do most of the damage dealing. He then challenged us to come up with a way of, at least partially, linking invoker damage to their worn eq. Thats about when this whole off-topic flamewar started. Oh well.
Corth
Same reason a lot of things are done for a MUD... balance. They want to make it so that a naked invoker is not terribly useful so that they have to worry about getting eq and such just like warriors.
Basing it off of max hp seems the way to go to me... though I think power makes more sense, then invokers would always just roll for perfect power... heh. Or make it based off of some new invisible stat, and certain eq adds to it or subtracts from it. Maybe could use psp's if you wanted to add or change some items to support that...
Sarvis
They want to make it so that a naked invoker is not terribly useful so that they have to worry about getting eq and such just like warriors. Basing it off of max hp seems the way to go to me... though I think power makes more sense, then invokers would always just roll for perfect power... heh. Or make it based off of some new invisible stat, and certain eq adds to it or subtracts from it. Maybe could use psp's if you wanted to add or change some items to support that...
Sarvis
oh wow..
what a thread
*still trying to untangle all the different things mixed up in here*
This is not a flame, nor a knowledgeable post, and just a very ignorant opinion from someone who only played for fun and companionship
I understand now why people have such things against invokers. I played an invoker nearly all of Sojourn2 and I had so much fun blowing up stuff. I tend to be a violent person in real life
I got my invoker decently high. I was almost lvl 42 and had completed only one of my spell quests. I understand why rangers don't like us. It seems to me that the only people who play rangers are those like Ragorn and Waelos who have played it for so long that not playing the class seems like blasphemy. But as far as I can see, rangers weren't really wanted in high level groups whether before or after invokers and were the big questers and newbie helpers. So why all this invoker hate? I am biased. I played only the paladin and ranger class before sojourn 2. I was just always a do-gooder at heart I spent every level after 25 alone, or with one other friend i knew killing stuff in IC. No one ever answered my requests for groups or assistance. Granted before sojourn2 i had never exceeded lvl 38 so this is just an observation of mine
The experience of playing an invoker was breathtaking. I always got groups, I got to do zones i never even knew existed, the adrenalin pumping through my body at my first zone experience had sweat pouring down my face and i played the role of a sitter. Mplor is right. If invokers were effaced from the game, it wouldnt make a big dent and other classes may get more chances. But i dont think so. Everything has its own niche now. If invokers and enchanters were effaced and sorcs put back in, rangers and conjurers still wouldnt get groups.
Im not sure if i made any sense or progress in this post but i just said what i was thinking. i hope i didnt confuse anyone
what a thread
*still trying to untangle all the different things mixed up in here*
This is not a flame, nor a knowledgeable post, and just a very ignorant opinion from someone who only played for fun and companionship
I understand now why people have such things against invokers. I played an invoker nearly all of Sojourn2 and I had so much fun blowing up stuff. I tend to be a violent person in real life
I got my invoker decently high. I was almost lvl 42 and had completed only one of my spell quests. I understand why rangers don't like us. It seems to me that the only people who play rangers are those like Ragorn and Waelos who have played it for so long that not playing the class seems like blasphemy. But as far as I can see, rangers weren't really wanted in high level groups whether before or after invokers and were the big questers and newbie helpers. So why all this invoker hate? I am biased. I played only the paladin and ranger class before sojourn 2. I was just always a do-gooder at heart
I spent every level after 25 alone, or with one other friend i knew killing stuff in IC. No one ever answered my requests for groups or assistance. Granted before sojourn2 i had never exceeded lvl 38 so this is just an observation of mine The experience of playing an invoker was breathtaking. I always got groups, I got to do zones i never even knew existed, the adrenalin pumping through my body at my first zone experience had sweat pouring down my face and i played the role of a sitter. Mplor is right. If invokers were effaced from the game, it wouldnt make a big dent and other classes may get more chances. But i dont think so. Everything has its own niche now. If invokers and enchanters were effaced and sorcs put back in, rangers and conjurers still wouldnt get groups.
Im not sure if i made any sense or progress in this post but i just said what i was thinking. i hope i didnt confuse anyone
Jen, read it a bit more carefully
Most of the invoker jabs are done in jest, though a number of people do think the class should be taken out in sorcerers reinstated.
It's not the class we have problems with, it's the insane amount of damage their spells did. If they're spell damage was cut by something like 40-60%, they'd still be able to outdamage other classes. Combine this with across the board hitter eq downgrades, this means that hitters paled in comparison to invokers even more than we did to monks. We at least were more useful before even if monks outshadowed us.
Anyway, I'm not really in a mood to say what I've probably said in at least 5 posts in the feedback section already since there's a search function in the BBS code and you can read it all in the original posts.
Most of the invoker jabs are done in jest, though a number of people do think the class should be taken out in sorcerers reinstated.
It's not the class we have problems with, it's the insane amount of damage their spells did. If they're spell damage was cut by something like 40-60%, they'd still be able to outdamage other classes. Combine this with across the board hitter eq downgrades, this means that hitters paled in comparison to invokers even more than we did to monks. We at least were more useful before even if monks outshadowed us.
Anyway, I'm not really in a mood to say what I've probably said in at least 5 posts in the feedback section already since there's a search function in the BBS code and you can read it all in the original posts.
I think at this point, balance is about where it needs to be. Steps are in place to assure that if a group brings more than two invokers, they'll have to plan very carefully to avoid being toasted. Other classes have gotten upgrades to compensate for the inability to just bring 6 invokers to a zone and inferno the living crap out of it.
From here I think it's tweaking. The only major modifications that I see involve conjurers and bards, and not even bards so much anymore. The staff has done an excellent job pulling together all the loose ends. Often we only see parts of the big picture, but when you look at how the classes interact as a whole, it makes more sense.
- Ragorn
From here I think it's tweaking. The only major modifications that I see involve conjurers and bards, and not even bards so much anymore. The staff has done an excellent job pulling together all the loose ends. Often we only see parts of the big picture, but when you look at how the classes interact as a whole, it makes more sense.
- Ragorn
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B> Is it not still accurate for comparing spells? If force missile hits me for 400 and sandstorm hits me for 300, it is accurate to say that force missiles are 33% stronger against mobs than sandstorm?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, it is not. Again, they work on two completely different scales. There is no simple modifier adjusting the damage, it is an entirely different set of numbers, balanced towards PC combat, not mobiles.
Further, note that spell damage is based on die rolls, and some spells - notably top circle spells - have a large variance in their damage output. You would need to do several tests to get an accurate representation of a given spell's average damage output.
-- Shevy
<B> Is it not still accurate for comparing spells? If force missile hits me for 400 and sandstorm hits me for 300, it is accurate to say that force missiles are 33% stronger against mobs than sandstorm?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, it is not. Again, they work on two completely different scales. There is no simple modifier adjusting the damage, it is an entirely different set of numbers, balanced towards PC combat, not mobiles.
Further, note that spell damage is based on die rolls, and some spells - notably top circle spells - have a large variance in their damage output. You would need to do several tests to get an accurate representation of a given spell's average damage output.
-- Shevy
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Gindipple
- Sojourner
- Posts: 676
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: O' Fallon, MO. USA
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jenera:
<B>
The experience of playing an invoker was breathtaking. I always got groups, I got to do zones i never even knew existed, the adrenalin pumping through my body at my first zone experience had sweat pouring down my face and i played the role of a sitter.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This really cracked me up
All that excitement, then you state you was just the sitter, I love it!
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Gindipple (Gnome) stands here.
<B>
The experience of playing an invoker was breathtaking. I always got groups, I got to do zones i never even knew existed, the adrenalin pumping through my body at my first zone experience had sweat pouring down my face and i played the role of a sitter.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This really cracked me up
All that excitement, then you state you was just the sitter, I love it!
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Gindipple (Gnome) stands here.
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Thorlin
- Sojourner
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Fort Bragg, North Carolina, USA
- Contact:
I know i'm no big authority on vokers/chanters/conjurers/whatnot..but reading through this thread i kinda realized something. Where Melee classes generally need all 4 physical attributes high to succeed, there isn't really the same need for spellcasters. (DISCLAIMER: If I'm a dumbass and for some reason dex or agility goes into spells forgive me With the issue of balancing vokers so maybe a stat is what determines their damage, etc.. I think perhaps it should be power. At the same time making Charisma help Enchanters, and well, I'm not sure what other stats would be considered for conjurers or necromancers, but by the dnd standards it would be constitution for conjurers, and wisdom for necros. If I'm wicked off base over here i apologize in advance, like i said i'm no huge spellcaster guru, but sometimes it helps to get an outside opinion maybe make another stat or two necessary for spellcasters so they dont only need that perfect in intelligence to hand ass.
Thorlin
With the issue of balancing vokers so maybe a stat is what determines their damage, etc.. I think perhaps it should be power. At the same time making Charisma help Enchanters, and well, I'm not sure what other stats would be considered for conjurers or necromancers, but by the dnd standards it would be constitution for conjurers, and wisdom for necros. If I'm wicked off base over here i apologize in advance, like i said i'm no huge spellcaster guru, but sometimes it helps to get an outside opinion maybe make another stat or two necessary for spellcasters so they dont only need that perfect in intelligence to hand ass.Thorlin
Thorlin:
Good comments.
Let me play devil's advocate though. Although casters generally rely on just wis and int for their spells, they still need strength (so they can lift their backpack), and con (for hps). Thus, if you make another stat such as power relevant, won't you be spreading them even thinner than melee classes who can get by with bad int/wis/pow/char?
Corth
Good comments.
Let me play devil's advocate though. Although casters generally rely on just wis and int for their spells, they still need strength (so they can lift their backpack), and con (for hps). Thus, if you make another stat such as power relevant, won't you be spreading them even thinner than melee classes who can get by with bad int/wis/pow/char?
Corth
Well... according to the Shaman's HP thread casters don't need that much con to get to their max con notch. So a caster can probably get by with only average or fair con... So an invoker can get just str, int, and con... and doesn't need to put too much emphasis on con anyway.
Meanwhile a ranger needs good str, dex, agi, con AND int. And you're probably in trouble if any one of these 5 are below "good." So making a caster need to use power as well would still mean they need less stats than melee types.
Sarvis
Meanwhile a ranger needs good str, dex, agi, con AND int. And you're probably in trouble if any one of these 5 are below "good." So making a caster need to use power as well would still mean they need less stats than melee types.
Sarvis
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>Well... according to the Shaman's HP thread casters don't need that much con to get to their max con notch. So a caster can probably get by with only average or fair con...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You probably never played much on sojourn, but..
There is a very good reason why EVERYONE wants and needs maximised con
/Jegzed
<B>Well... according to the Shaman's HP thread casters don't need that much con to get to their max con notch. So a caster can probably get by with only average or fair con...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You probably never played much on sojourn, but..
There is a very good reason why EVERYONE wants and needs maximised con
/Jegzed
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Thorlin
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
Umm... err? I've been around on sojourn for 3 years. :shrug: But it's not like I know everything... So what's this reason for everyone to need con?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
thinkin mebbe he's referring to ress loss?..donno.
at any rate, granted casters need strength and con for hp and encumberance, but you could just as easily say that warriors need intelligence and wisdom for skill notching (once again i'm kinda foggy on mechanics, gimme a break if i'm a little off there) and as stated before, rangers and pallys need wis/int as well as their physical pre-req's. I would still contend that fewer stats are required at this point for spellcasters (mages specifically) than are for warrior types.
Thorlin
PS- Another thing I saw when reading through was "Emphasis on invoker damage versus hitter damage" I thought the goal of alpha was to find an equilibrium??.. From my perspective it looks like the Admins are providing more classes to create a more diverse playing environment, with more specialties and contingents for each of those that want a more defined class. In conventional RPG's, historically the mages have dealt out the massive damage over fighters, kind of a trade off, fighters have an easier time at low level, so the wizards get better rewards at higher level. (of course those are RPG's, not muds) as far as the mud is concerned, if they truly want balance and equilibrium, analyze the hitter classes versus the nuker classes and check round vs round and adjust the damage on spells accordingly.
Another thought I had. One argument could be "a sword doesn't do nearly as much damage as a great ball of fire." well, unfortunately the game doesn't provide for instant kill shots like decapitations, chinks in armor, lucky shots through eyes, etc.. short of critical hits. Perhaps if there was a sliding scale, and effects beyond just "critical hit" ie: normal hit, critical hit, precise attack, crippling blow, kill blow. Add some logistics to fighters where there seems to be with invokers. If they get the credit for being able to level a countryside, maybe the fighters should get credit for being able to hack off a limb or crush a skull with one swipe =)
-Thorlin
PS-sorry for the long post! and oyea, bring back mercs!
[This message has been edited by Thorlin (edited 04-20-2001).]
Umm... err? I've been around on sojourn for 3 years. :shrug: But it's not like I know everything... So what's this reason for everyone to need con?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
thinkin mebbe he's referring to ress loss?..donno.
at any rate, granted casters need strength and con for hp and encumberance, but you could just as easily say that warriors need intelligence and wisdom for skill notching (once again i'm kinda foggy on mechanics, gimme a break if i'm a little off there
) and as stated before, rangers and pallys need wis/int as well as their physical pre-req's. I would still contend that fewer stats are required at this point for spellcasters (mages specifically) than are for warrior types. Thorlin
PS- Another thing I saw when reading through was "Emphasis on invoker damage versus hitter damage" I thought the goal of alpha was to find an equilibrium??.. From my perspective it looks like the Admins are providing more classes to create a more diverse playing environment, with more specialties and contingents for each of those that want a more defined class. In conventional RPG's, historically the mages have dealt out the massive damage over fighters, kind of a trade off, fighters have an easier time at low level, so the wizards get better rewards at higher level. (of course those are RPG's, not muds) as far as the mud is concerned, if they truly want balance and equilibrium, analyze the hitter classes versus the nuker classes and check round vs round and adjust the damage on spells accordingly.
Another thought I had. One argument could be "a sword doesn't do nearly as much damage as a great ball of fire." well, unfortunately the game doesn't provide for instant kill shots like decapitations, chinks in armor, lucky shots through eyes, etc.. short of critical hits. Perhaps if there was a sliding scale, and effects beyond just "critical hit" ie: normal hit, critical hit, precise attack, crippling blow, kill blow. Add some logistics to fighters where there seems to be with invokers. If they get the credit for being able to level a countryside, maybe the fighters should get credit for being able to hack off a limb or crush a skull with one swipe =)
-Thorlin
PS-sorry for the long post! and oyea, bring back mercs!
[This message has been edited by Thorlin (edited 04-20-2001).]
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