Garosh Weaponslinger

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Garosh
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Garosh Weaponslinger

Postby Garosh » Tue May 15, 2001 1:55 pm

There are probably a dozen posts about this already, but thought I would spit it out again.
After arming about every guard and shaman in Split shields with weapons, it got a lil frustrating.
I play a barb warrior, Heroic Dex, and skill appropriate for my level (whoopee 8th) with the weapons I have, nevertheless I fumble my weapon at least once every 2 fights...sometimes 4 or 5 times in a single dog fight Image.
Now, the fumbling part I suppose isnt bad, but I would think I would crit as often as I fumble with the laws of probability, but that isnt the case.
Anyway, the point of this post is, as a warrior, I am constantly bashing, shieldpunching, kicking, screaming, and bellyaching to get my enemy to fall down and die. But all of these things (except maybe the screaming and bellyaching) cause me to get stunned. So, the usual thing is, I kick the target, immediately fumble my weapon, and then I am helpless to pick it back up for 2 or 3 combat rounds. Which is more than ample time for Grethrug, the patrolling village guard, or Frudgetktth the wandering elite guard of split shields to pick up my weapon and wield it, taunting me the whole way. Attempting to get these weapons back would be pointless, or actually 'I might as as well lie down and pretend I was dead'
I lost 6 weapons within 40 minutes because of this. As a lil newb of 8th level, it was sure chance I even had that many weapons to sling around.
I did take some comfort in the fact that I saw an elite fumble his sword once, and I ran off with it, wielded it, and fumbled it, so a village guard could have a nice shiny weapon. Image
Thing is, even though I can still attack and defend myself while 'stunned' from kicking or bashing, I cannot pick up my weapon when I fumble it, which is where the frustration comes in. I had been buying nice shiny battle-axes for 4 plat when I had the money, but after equipping the guards of split shields with them, now I just use any newbie weapon I can find or that someone gives me.

Garosh Weaponslinger
Need an axe? Need a sword? stick around, I'll fumble ya one! Image
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Postby belleshel » Tue May 15, 2001 2:10 pm

Im a grey, with 95 dex, above average skill, and I still fumble my weapons quite frequently. There are 3 obvious solutions to your problem.
1) Do not use specials when in a room with scavenger mobs.
2) Group with someone, and have them trigger 'get,give' around scavengers.
3) Don't exp around scavengers.
Probably not the solution you want, but I promise you losing weapons will be a thing of the past (except over water, flung a dark steel on a morted mob lastnight..*sink*) Image
Belle
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Postby Garosh » Tue May 15, 2001 2:27 pm

So basically, dont use weapons I have, only my cheap ones?
I cant wait to get a wonderful sword, and leave it in my backpack the whole time cause I'm too afraid to swing it.

Garosh Pummelmaster
At least I cant fumble my fists off my wrists.
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Postby Jegzed » Tue May 15, 2001 2:29 pm

Or kill the scavenger mobs.
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Postby Garosh » Tue May 15, 2001 2:33 pm

Lessee...the scavenger mobs rank as 'YOU ARE MAD', so..I'm to use my newbie weapons to take out something far higher level than I am Image
nice logic.
Image
The problem isnt the scavenger mobs, the problem is the fact that kicking and bashing 'stuns' me so that I cannot pick up my weapons.
though I can continue to fight, I'd personally prefer to not swing and pick up my sword than to punch mobs.
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Postby Tzat » Tue May 15, 2001 3:57 pm

On a somewhat related note....
Maybe its not so bad when they get your weapon after all...
I've noticed while killing mobs that pop with weapons that they seem to hit much harder after they fumble their weapon and I pick it up. I try to give it back, but they have to consent me, argh.
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Postby Rahl » Tue May 15, 2001 5:02 pm

I have good dex I believe and I dont fumble very often now, even when I was level 8 I didnt fumble quite that frequently. Just single out mobs alone in a room or something to kill or when around scavengers just dont kick or bash. What I did.



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Rahl -- Guardian of pink bunnies and anything fluffy
Garosh
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Postby Garosh » Tue May 15, 2001 5:16 pm

Its unlikely for me this time around..
but what happens when someone has Doombringer or Avernus..and they fumble their sword, scavenger mob picks it up, someone else kills that mob and takes the sword?
That wouldnt be considered pstealing or anything, since it obviously switched some hands in the meanwhile, and all those weapons I have lost so far have ended up in someone else's hands...
just another angle to it..

May be my imagination, but back in the day (eyes roll into the back of his head) that when you would fumble or get disarmed, the weapon was untakable by anyone except the person who dropped it. I vaguely recall disarming a mob, and then trying to pick it up, and getting some message like 'soso stands over the weapon making it impossible to get' Was a nice feature


Garosh getsword;wield sword..you do not have a sword


[This message has been edited by Garosh (edited 05-15-2001).]
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Postby Jaeron » Tue May 15, 2001 5:59 pm

Yup.. that is a nifty little feature, I think it's still in, but it's a feature of protection you get when someone disarms you.. or when you disarm a mob. I think they need to decrease the number of fumbles you get. It is way too much, and mobs should have to wait at least 3 rounds to pick up a dropped item.

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Jaeron -Shadowstalker, Merc for Hire, at your service.
Garosh
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Postby Garosh » Tue May 15, 2001 6:11 pm

if its in for disarm, why not extend it to fumbling too? would make fumbling an inconvenience, but not weapontheft like it is now..
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Postby Tilandal » Tue May 15, 2001 6:56 pm

That sounds reasonable enough. There is a whole lot of finging going on now. Maybe its just because of the low level but at 16 im still flinging a buch even though my weapons skills are fairly high now.
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Postby Podar Brightwolf » Tue May 15, 2001 10:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Garosh:
May be my imagination, but back in the day (eyes roll into the back of his head) that when you would fumble or get disarmed, the weapon was untakable by anyone except the person who dropped it. I vaguely recall disarming a mob, and then trying to pick it up, and getting some message like 'soso stands over the weapon making it impossible to get' Was a nice feature</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure if this is in Beta because I don't have the Disarm skill, but I know for a fact it was implemented in Alpha II becuase I tried it and found that particular message. This type of message for PC fumbles would be nice if they don't reduce the number. Admittedly, I've been in fights where I don't fumble, tho that is rare. Usually I fumble at least 3 or 4 times per fight, sometimes as high as 7 or 8. This is very high compared to Toril or Soj2. Reducing the possibility of fumble would be nice. Either that or making weapons !retrievable for other than the fumbler.

Podar
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Postby Ragorn » Wed May 16, 2001 1:50 am

I can disarm you with dust devil and steal your sword. I beat countless warriors in the arena by forcing them to miss a bash, then dust devilling and taking their twilight Image

- Ragorn
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Wed May 16, 2001 7:03 am

If you can force someone to miss a bash, they suck Image
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Postby Kiloppile » Wed May 16, 2001 7:47 am

Ok... a few thoughts:

1. Scavenger mobs pick up items on the ground, including weapons dropped by players.

2. Apparently, this is horribly disconcerting to said players.

3. It is apparently considered much more reasonable by some of them that the mobs should not be allowed to pick up a weapon on the ground.

Ok... a few suggestions:

1. Don't fight in places where you know there are scavenger mobs (and I am acknowledging by the way I phrased that that you won't always know).

2. It doesn't hurt to have a group member or two who has a trigger to get your weapon and hand it to you. It won't interfere with your trigger except in cases of identical weapons (same name being used for trigger) being dropped or cases of extreme lag in between commands.

3. Avoid fighting in water rooms until you can get a cursed weapon, or use a weapon you don't care that much about.

Dunno, haven't had a problem with this, and I throw my weapon plenty. Keep in mind, this is an even bigger problem for paladins, who at low levels have to dismount to get their weapon. Kinda surprised I haven't seen a comment about that here. The solution my groups have had is multiple people having triggers to hand the weapon back to the paladin.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed May 16, 2001 12:52 pm

Player A says: "Hey guys! Let's go to SS and do some exp!"

Random players in room: "Yeah! that sounds like fun..."

Everyone is now a member of PlayerA and Company.

Player A gsays: "Ok, now everyone make a trigger for everyone elses weapon in case they fumbl please..."
.
.
.
20 minutes later:

PlayerA gsays: "Ok, now we're ready!"

PlayerB gsays: "D'oh! just looked at the time... gotta go pick up my gf..."

PlayerA: "Crap! yer the healer... can't kill anything without you... guess I'll log too."

PlayerA Disbands, everyone logs because they spent all their time making triggers for everyone else in the group... fun wow. Image

---------------------------------------------

Ok, maybe a kind of extreme example; but I'd really rather not waste a bunch of time setting triggers for every group I join. As for avoiding scavengers... well for some reason almost every decent low level exp zone is just chock full of them. So that's not really much of an option either... it would take about 5 minutes for one of the coders to make a weapon un-gettable for anyone who didn't fumble it so why not do that? It's easier and more reliable all around, dropping weapons is still a penalty because you miss out on doing damage for a few rounds... and lowbies won't constantly be begging everyone for weapons.

Also, would be nice if when you dropped a weapon in the water you could get it back. Perhaps with a swimming skill check because you dive to the bottom of the river or whatever looking for it? But it's realy odd in say, the ant farm where the water rooms don't even require a boat. You must be wading then, but if you drop your weapon in the water you can never get it back? Even theough the water only comes up to your ankle? Image (Not that I've ever dropped a weapon in there... but it would be annoying if I did.)

Sarvis
Garosh
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Postby Garosh » Wed May 16, 2001 1:01 pm

I've lost weapons in rooms I had no idea were water rooms. Around the Barbarian hometown, there are areas with the River Soemthing listed, but I was fighting a fieldmouse at the time, had no idea I was on water, but nevertheless my Battle-axe sunk.
If I can fight a mouse in the zone, I wouldnt have thought it was too deep to find a big ol axe.
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Postby cherzra » Wed May 16, 2001 1:52 pm

Excerpts from "Cherzra's expert warrior tactics volume III":

page 13 paragraph 2: "Whenever fighting scavenger mobs or when they are in the room, I shall refrain from bashing etc and pretype 'get sword' with my finger ready on the enter key."

Page 25 paragraph 7: "Whenever considering fighting something anywhere I even remotely suspect will have an inch of water, I shall drop a coin to make sure first."
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Postby Kiloppile » Wed May 16, 2001 4:00 pm

"Let's go do SS"

Um... that's your problem right there. Also, if you're going to run to split shield, can't you just work on triggers while running there? Do you guys all hang out at the black knight or something close to SS?

Some of the places that I've done exp have been devoid of other players. Why am I doing them? Mainly for that very reason. I get a group, spend 5-10 mins running somewhere, and we get to kill anything we want.

Split shield is a bit of a trip, has scavengers, and isn't really that great of an exp zone.... so why go there? Plus it's frequently got more than one group running around, limiting your options.

As for mobs not being able to pick up a weapon... does this actually make any real sense? Sure, it'd make it *easier* for the players... but is that alone a reason to put in something that doesn't really make any sense?

I haven't had to kill a mob to get a weapon even once in beta. This is because I plan where I'm going, and include the presence of scavengers in my selection process.

If you want people to get your weapon, just don't bash, shieldpunch or kick for the fist fight, and have people make triggers after you throw your weapon the first time... really easy.

Personally, I don't think that something that requires players to plan and possibly think on their feet is a bad thing.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed May 16, 2001 5:44 pm

Ok, then how about the tough mercs in kangs tavern? Vigis dropped his weapon to those guys at _least_ five times, and I dropped mine once. :grin Vigis: Good exp, no walking, and we didn't have to share them with anybody, so that meets all your requirements; but apparently we shouldn't go there because we'll lose our weapons. Sorry... I'd rather not have my choice of places to exp be based on whether or not a mob is a scavenger. And there's a difference between thinking and planning ahead and just sitting around for 20 minutes setting up triggers.

Sarvis
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Postby Kiloppile » Wed May 16, 2001 6:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>Ok, then how about the tough mercs in kangs tavern? Vigis dropped his weapon to those guys at _least_ five times, and I dropped mine once. :grin Vigis: Good exp, no walking, and we didn't have to share them with anybody, so that meets all your requirements; but apparently we shouldn't go there because we'll lose our weapons. Sorry... I'd rather not have my choice of places to exp be based on whether or not a mob is a scavenger. And there's a difference between thinking and planning ahead and just sitting around for 20 minutes setting up triggers.

Sarvis</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, but if it takes you 20 minutes to set up even 10 of these triggers for an 11-man group, um... you need to learn how to use a client better. Takes about 20 secs if you type slowly/trigger.

If there are scavengers, you just either have someone who *isn't* lagging themselves with bash/shieldpunch/kick get the weapon, or you deal with the fact that they're going to occasionally pick up your weapon.

Incidentally, if you were *succeeding* with these skills, they wouldn't be picking them up. (Ones that aren't fighting you would though).
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Postby Sarvis » Wed May 16, 2001 7:54 pm

Umm... how do you figure 20 seconds? Took me longer than that just to type these two sentences... heh. But we're talking about the spam of everyone looking at everyone and then finding his wield slot, then typing his weapons name (copying would be more reliable but probably slower.) It would take at least a few minutes, and some people _aren't_ that great with their clients so the group would have to wait on them anyway. Gindipple knows zmud like the back of his hand, and could probably code a trigger set in like 5 minutes to do it for him every time... but Slomo the newbie cleric has never used zmud before and is going through all the menus so Gind has to wait for him.

Most of the time (in exp runs) everyone in the group is lagged with something. Against the toughs I was kicking, vigis was shieldpunching and the casters were all casting. Or should the casters be aborting their spells to pick up Vigis's weapon? Yet another flaw with the triggers approach, someone has to sit there doing nothing for it to work. (Maybe the new bard skill! Image

Succeeding with the skills only works for bash, and maybe shieldpunch. Kick lags you whether it lands or not, and doesn't lag the mob.

Sarvis
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Postby Kiloppile » Wed May 16, 2001 8:24 pm

Actually, from my experience with a paladin dropping their weapon, the fact that 3 or 4 people have a trigger for it (this is an extreme example... I don't ever have anyone pick up my weapon, but I don't generally fight around scavengers) makes it a virtual certainty that one of the players will not be lagged at that instant.

Also note, unless you're clever with emote and trigger, shieldpunch can lag you into oblivion. Doesn't give you a message that you're ready to shieldpunch yet, so you can hit it 3 extra times, etc. Think kick is the same way.
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Postby Rausrh » Wed May 16, 2001 8:28 pm

I always use "shieldp;lkjlkjj" or "kick;lkjlkj" and wait for the "pardon?" This help me to know when I am unlagged so I don't have to spam kicks/shieldpunches and helps me grab my/mobs weapon if need be.

Rausrh licks you.
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Postby Gindipple » Wed May 16, 2001 8:36 pm

Whoa there's a tactics manual?, where can we get copies Image

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>Excerpts from "Cherzra's expert warrior tactics volume III":

page 13 paragraph 2: "Whenever fighting scavenger mobs or when they are in the room, I shall refrain from bashing etc and pretype 'get sword' with my finger ready on the enter key."

Page 25 paragraph 7: "Whenever considering fighting something anywhere I even remotely suspect will have an inch of water, I shall drop a coin to make sure first."
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby Sarvis » Wed May 16, 2001 10:13 pm

Heh... I just time it. Kick is 2 rounds of lag, bash is 3 on a fail and about 1.5 on success. No idea with shieldpunch because I don't play a warrior. Image

Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Wed May 16, 2001 10:14 pm

Heh... I just time it. Kick is 2 rounds of lag, bash is 3 on a fail and about 1.5 on success. No idea with shieldpunch because I don't play a warrior. Image

Sarvis
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Postby Kiloppile » Thu May 17, 2001 6:15 am

It's unnecessary to time bash... if you type it earlier it says you haven't reoriented yet.

Shieldpunch and kick are *critical* to have timed right... i would suggest using an emote or garbage command for this.
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Postby Rausrh » Thu May 17, 2001 1:36 pm

Well I just wait for the mob to get up before I bash them down again. No use bashing a bashed mob.
I know that kick and shieldpunch lag you for x rounds, but sometimes it is hard to see where a round starts/ends with all you damn casters throwing your magics around my head and all you sneaky types doing all your tricky moves. I think I will make an auto-kick and auto-shieldpunch trigger set tonight.

Rausrh licks you.
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Postby Kiloppile » Thu May 17, 2001 4:20 pm

Well, the only thing on bash is that sometimes there's more than one thing rising to its feet in a multi-person environment... but the message about not being re-oriented handles that.

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