Class roles:

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
Jaeron
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Class roles:

Postby Jaeron » Wed Apr 04, 2001 6:49 pm

I think one of the most important steps to acheiving balance, is defining the role of each class that exists. In old Sojourns, (I didn't play Sojourn 2, but I'll go on what I understand from reading alot)
Sojourn 1:
Primary Classes first:
Warrior = Damage + Tank
Cleric = Healing
Sorc = Nuker and support with spellups
Thief = Damage, stealth type skills

Then all other classes were mixes of roles, such as:
Monk = Damage > Warrior, Tank < Warrior
Druid = Heal < Cleric, Nuke < Sorc, Mental Tank < Warrior
Mercenary = Damage < Warrior, Stealth < Thief
Assassin = Damage can be greater then warrior under certain circumstances, can't tank, stealth type skills.
Paladin = Healer < Cleric, Tank < Warrior, Damage < Warrior
Anti-Paladin = Damage < Warrior, Offensive Spells < Sorc, Tank < Warrior
Berserker was damage and tanking with a penalty so to speak.
Necro = offense < Sorc, but pets for tanks, etc..
Conj was for enchanting, lots of support, mental tanks, etc..

Every class had a role, we should all take a look at what classes are today, and figure out how to tweak for balance. Sojourn was always the most incredible game when it came to a sense of true balance, and I say that knowing damn well balance can NEVER be acheived, but instead tweaked over and over till damn near. It really gave me a sense of how balance should be, and showed me the problems with existing games. (IE: Everquest, and the pathetic horribly balanced Diablo 2, and even games like StarCraft.) So what say we take a look at the roles of the current classes?

P.S.
I decided against giving my ideas of roles in the last Sojourn because I wasn't there.

P.P.S.
I could have gone on for hours discussing the little minor details for each class to show how they were so finely tuned to achieve the balance I discussed, but decided to give an overview instead.

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Jaeron
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Postby Jaeron » Wed Apr 04, 2001 6:54 pm

Oh.. I should also mention.. I agree with the changes to the classes.. this isn't a letter of "Let's go back to the way it was!" because I'd rather see things as they are now.. (With the exception of my merc class being gone Image!)

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Postby Todrael » Wed Apr 04, 2001 7:07 pm

I would certainly agree with the tone of this post. Sojourn/Toril was the most balanced mud I have ever seen, and everywhere I have ever gone since has had wars of people saying certain classes were horrible or superfluous; in Toril, everyone had a place.

My first years on Sojourn/Toril were spent mainly solo, which of course never worked out very well (i never played the 'true' solo classes). Now, i want to enjoy the group mud, and actually get to know a community of great people. I'm currently drawn inexorably to the Necromancer class, yet find that everyone is saying it will be useless in a party without Wraith's having stone skin? That we can't solo hardly at all any more? That we would be superfluous to a group....

I don't want to be an invoker. Dealing damage is fine, but I want to do it by raining blood down on my enemies and drawing the moisture out of their flesh. No one seems to think the new spells make up for the loss of stone skin in wraith abilities.

Rogues rule, I've seen them in action up to level 18. Invokers are doing very well, enchanters are right up there even.. everyone seems to say they need help levelling, but they were some of the first above level 10 in alpha-2. Warriors and clerics are doing fine it seems, it just takes a while to get the right stats. paladins/anti-paladins/bards/rangers i don't have any knowledge of at this time.

Will a necromancer be relegated to the poor man's 'voker? Are we really a bunch of soloing social outcasts? I want to group!! Soloing will have it's uses, but i don't want it to be my prime concern.

Just some thoughts/observations.
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Postby vynigumba » Wed Apr 04, 2001 7:45 pm

Necromancers(and not only necromancers..) to be able to group in S2 basically you would have to know the group leader personally.... otherwise besides few exceptions (shortage of globers because all taken by best groups --- meaning that necromancers were relegated somewhat to second class groups) necromancers werent really grouping much.
I played a lot and I guess can count on my hands the times somebody asked me to group for some zone. So, basically if you want to group you had to choose another class.

Now S3 necromancers seems to have gotten a good deal of spells which are supposed to be good for groups. Those spells surely are useful in some very defined cases, but since there is group limit I really doubt that you will see lots of necro in groups, I may be wrong but being a group leader I would rather have a affidable cleric or a voker than a necromancer. Furthermore, undead pet and groups do not mix well (because you need those freaking corpses)
Also, experience groups and necro just dont mix. At this point the only purpose of playing a necro is to turn into lich. But to be able to do that you need to know a lot of people and to group a lot.. I would think that is going to be easier if you play something else first and then, eventually, a necro.

If you want to group a lot I would go with something more reliable, healer or stoner.
(and if you want to solo.. also)
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Postby Valeos/Dorac » Wed Apr 04, 2001 8:35 pm

All i need to say is bring mercenarys back..they were the best blend of classes and so much fun to play even tho they really sucked Image

high-five jaeron!
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Postby Jaeron » Fri Apr 06, 2001 12:26 pm

In all honesty, now that I've thought about it, it may be too early for this thread. Maybe I'll revive it in a month or two.

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Uthgar
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Postby Uthgar » Fri Apr 06, 2001 3:38 pm

There is an additional change to spellcasting that will make it more attractive to bring a necromancer than a 3rd invoker. Ask the playtesters from alpha-1 if they can remember what it was. A necromancer will be a class with good (insane if lich) damage, and a lot of utility spells, and some special unique spells (like undead and mantle). A group will never want more than one, but a lot of groups will want to bring one, once they see how our change plays out.

Uthgar
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Apr 06, 2001 10:30 pm

Well, there's the fact that mis-timed infernoes will kill both invokers Image But I doubt that's what you meant.

I dunno what Uthgar means offhand.

- Ragorn
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Postby Uthgar » Fri Apr 06, 2001 11:55 pm

That's exactly what I meant, ONLY that effect is not limited to just inferno.


Uthgar
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Postby Gindipple » Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:52 pm

I'm starting to get confused on what the class roles are myself.

Is this even close to right?
Warrior - Tank/Medium Damage
Cleric - Healer
Invoker - Max Damage
Ranger - High Damage
Rogue - High Damage
Enchanter - Protection/Utility
Necro - Backup Tank/Low Damage
Conjurer - Backup Tank/Low Damage
Shaman - Backup Tank/Utility
Druid - Backup Heal/Utility
Psionist - Medium Damage/Utility
Bard - Heal/Utility
Pally/AP - Backup Tank/Medium Damage
Illusion. - Utility

If I forgot some please add them.

Not looking for people to point out how wrong I am, but more peacfully corect my misunderstandings if there are any.

Thanks


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Postby cherzra » Wed Apr 11, 2001 11:50 am

Lich - big damage
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Postby moritheil » Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:38 am

hmm Jaeron...
I think Toril was pretty balanced...
and what's wrong with SC balance? (I speak of the BW expansion) :P
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Postby Jaeron » Tue May 08, 2001 4:47 pm

Brood War has a few things that are kinda unbalanced.. alot of the complaints I had are being changed.. Scouts are useless, and way too expensive, corsair do WAY too much damage.. way way too much, Valks are too expensive and are pretty worthless, Zerg Hatcheries need to be made slightly more expensive, etc..

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Postby Jaeron » Tue May 08, 2001 4:49 pm

Oh and.. I feel that the protoss race needs some balance tweeks.. they're on the powerful side.

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Postby silvea » Tue May 08, 2001 5:29 pm

just a bit of update on some forgotten classes (badly roll explained)

conjurer : util spells
(it is no longer capble of delivering a tank)
invoker : max dammage
(but remember an invoker needs to mem often)
ranger : stable good dammage, backup tank
(ranger works because of the stable dammage an invo lacks)
thief : stable dammage, util skills
(same as ranger for dammage)

I don't think that the new changes have made the classes more stable and equal to others. An Necro will have great problems with groups (just like the anti-pally) becouse no goodie will help him become a lich and he can not group with evil races. Kinda strange not?

Invokers did to much area dammage but the feedback they get now is so huge and risky that you can take max 1 invo with you, or 2 with a good plan. It chaged a lot for an invo and I expect a lot of very small groups with them now (eg shaman with invo grouped) and the big team player it was, now gone.

Conjurers where the class that could deliver a tank, a big one. A normal tank got mybe a bit better AC but are much more risky. Now they lost the tank, and to be fair, got nothing left. Would you go to jot with an conjurer lvl 50 and has a 500hp earth ellie?

The thieves are now the most multi functional they can be very good in a group, and got the skills/ac to solo some and explore. A ranger got a bit more hp, spells and dammage but misses the skills to be sucsesfull at it for higher levels. Still mybe a better choise in a big group becouse of pallies.

In general I think some calsses will be played a lot less, and some classes are made ready for deletion, they lost the function and role they had on this mud.

You can delete:
conjurer, necromancer, anti-pally

You can expect a of more players play:
ranger, thief, cleric

greetings,

Silvea
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Postby Uthgar » Tue May 08, 2001 6:56 pm

I'm puzzled a bit at your lit of classes to delete.

Conjurers are, in fact, being transformed into a new class with new spells, called Elementalists, as posted on the motd. They weren't ready, but rather than delay
opening, we decided just to get them in asap.

Anti-paladins have recieved a bunch of new spells (help skill_ant) and a new, powerful skill (mounted combat). In addition, they now get free mounts and an evil version of the paladin lay-hands power. Finally, they are no longer stuck in the outcast ghetto and can again group with other good-race classes. I expect to see a lot of powerful anti-paladins.

Necromancers had a lot of changes, including a tremendous amount more damage spells, but the reduced effectiveness of their followers. With invokers limited in number, necromancers will be one class filling up the emptied group slots, as they do second most damage to invokers. They, like anti-paladins, are no longer ghettoized. Finally, they got 3 powerful new abilities:

Vampiric curse: players heal each time they strike a mob afflicted with this spell.

Blackmantle: mobs afflicted with this cannot heal or be healed.

Protection from undead: Now stops vampiric touch.

I think necromancers are quite viable, but time will tell if they need more new spells. You can be certain that if any of the above classes is perceived as too weak or as useless, we will act to correct the problem.

Uthgar
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Postby Kiloppile » Wed May 09, 2001 11:43 pm

From the rumors I've heard of their coming abilities, I wouldn't shine conjurers just yet. Something is about to happen... something wonderful.
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Postby silvea » Fri May 11, 2001 6:13 am

I think you did not get the point why Necro's and Anti-pallies are unplayable.

They my not group with evil race. And in most casses a goodie groep will have 1 or 2 pallies/rangers in them. So they are not welkom there to.

If I would be leading a zone (I'm an grey elf) and I'm asking people to help me(us) I will not ask fast an anti or necro, I find it lacking of style when I got rangers and paladins with me.

A paladin fighting for good, helping a necro tobecome the ultimate evil, a lich? I will never even consider to help the necro. A anti, destryer of life helping to get xp so he becomes more strong as a ranger protector of life? No way I gone help that anti.

So you can add a few things to the anti and necro, make a lot of chages to classes to force a role to a sertain type of class. But it just wont work.

Most paladins I know, will never even consider to group with somebody of evil alignment. And a lot of rangers I know will more then hasitate to do the same.

But mybe I'm wrong,

Silvea
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Postby Treladian » Fri May 11, 2001 7:25 am

Silvea: A lot of us feel weird when we do it (both me and Nilan felt pretty awkward on grouping together at first on another mud we sometimes played on after Sojourn went down), but a lot of us don't have that much of a problem grouping with antis, necros, or other evil aligned goodies. Heck, during alpha I was in the same group as an anti multiple times. Some people will claim that lots of palis or rangers won't do it for RP reasons, but a lot of interesting RP occurs when evil and good are forced to interact, especially since A LOT of people seem to have a very inaccurate image of an antipaladin, thinking of them as some being of pure malevolence bent on spreading chaos and slaughter when they're easily capable of being as honorable as a paladin even if they have vastly different ideals. The no grouping with evils rule was a poor attempt to simulate the distrust the rangers and paladins will have towards evil aligned people and refusal to commit evil deeds. There are no restrictions in D&D for a paladin or ranger getting aid from someone or something evil, it's what ends up being done that matters. Especially since evil is not some monolithic force that many seem to think it is in the realms. It's merely being willing to harm others for your own benefit. The average cutpurse, ogre bandit, and merchant that knowingly sells spoiled milk at inflated prices to make a dishonest copper are all examples of evil beings. But if I pay the thief to learn something about information that may help catch a killer, interrogate the ogre for information on Zhentish outposts in the area, or buy some bread from the merchant, I'm not actually doing something evil even if some of the people involved are. So I might accept a necromancer's help in getting rid of demons poised to strike at the prime material from the abyss but I won't be killing little children or the like to help him become a lich. ANyway, enough rambling, time to get back to mudding.
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Postby silvea » Mon May 14, 2001 6:53 am

oke..... Lets say for argument purpuse an anti got other ideas then a pallie, and it can be played out. This part I can agre on if I look a bit difrent to a concept of the pallie and anti (and disregards TSR ideas, as I often do before).

How do you consider an pallie / grey elf ranger and a necro then, necro ofcourse in full fledge of a bunch oz zombies, ghouls, etc. All nice grey elf zombies, and human ghouls. And the necro expects you help him become a lich.... And even when he got no undead walking around, you sure need to agre you know it is his/her goal to have them soon enough.

Silvea

ps : in my opinion an human is a neutral race, so should be able to group with both sides, depended on alignment.
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Postby Tasan » Mon May 14, 2001 8:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by silvea:
[B]How do you consider an pallie / grey elf ranger and a necro then, necro ofcourse in full fledge of a bunch oz zombies, ghouls, etc. All nice grey elf zombies, and human ghouls. And the necro expects you help him become a lich.... And even when he got no undead walking around, you sure need to agre you know it is his/her goal to have them soon enough.

Silvea
B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm, in case you don't know:
Grey Elves here are *very* xenophobic(i.e. EM island, Leuth restricts). If you were seriously going to try and make the game in the spirit of FR, I'm sure that VERY few elves would even leave the island, let alone interact with other races.

The idea of being purely based on something has serious issues sometimes, this happens to be one where you need to say, for the benefit of the game, that it's alright to change the boundaries a little bit.

Twyl
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Postby Treladian » Mon May 14, 2001 4:48 pm

One little note about necros: The undead created by a necro are effectively neutral. They're mindless automations incapable of independent thought. Undead are only flagged as evil on the mud just so paladins can kill them without penalty.

I've got more to say, but I think it could be better said if you just asked some of the people that played higher level rangers if they would group with a necro or anti in a zone group later on. You'll probably be surprised at what you find.
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Postby moritheil » Fri May 18, 2001 6:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jaeron:
<B>Oh and.. I feel that the protoss race needs some balance tweeks.. they're on the powerful side.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

valks were crappy, aye, sairs weren't that good unless you got 'em in number (and then they shredded everything), and zerg buildings were supposed to be that cheap - 300 for a hatch as opposed to 150 for a rax... IMHO any race could beat any other race, altho in general toss > terran, terran > zerg, zerg > toss from my experience.

BW 1.08 is out with zerg getting shafted (seems everything costs a lot more and is less effective) and terran getting boosted, and dweb reduced.

==

Trel, undead are morally neutral because they're not in control, but that doesn't make them neutral overall since they are an abomination and generally do nasty things. The reason they are flagged evil is they are a threat to humankind and palis slay them to protect the innocent and allow everyone to sleep at night.

Something like that...


Think about it this way, the undead being itself is not evil, but the energy animating it is. When you slay it, are you slaying a corpse or the energy animating it?
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Postby moritheil » Fri May 18, 2001 6:38 pm

Here's what I've noticed:

Tank/hitters:
warrior, pal/ap, ranger

dam dealers:
ranger
rogue
invoker, and other mages (but less so)
shaman
occasionally druid (the whole !nature areas penalty thing messes with this a lot)

healing/support:
shaman
cleric
druid

"untouchables:"
conj
bard


as tough as it is/was to be a druid, I have pity for those last 2 classes as they stand now.
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Postby Ssarra » Fri May 18, 2001 6:47 pm

I like that, Necro's are so badass, that they aren't even compared with other classes Image

Necro's would be tank/damage/support (pets)

Oh, and no downgrade the protoss! They rock!

Ssarra -My Life for Aiur!-

[This message has been edited by Ssarra (edited 05-18-2001).]
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Postby Treladian » Fri May 18, 2001 7:03 pm

Mori: The energy that animates an undead corpse does come from the negative energy plane, but that doesn't really make it evil. Black light burst is a non-undead oriented spell, but it channels energy from the negative energy plane. Other spells that aren't implemented in the mud probably do it too.

As far as undead go, you are actually slaying the body (again) and not the magic animating it. Basically, it's rendering the physical body (or the incorporeal form for things like wraiths and spectres) no longer able to channel power from the negative energy plane. Negative energy sustains them, but it doesn't really do anything if there's no longer a functional body to sustain. Clerical spells that target undead probably work differently than hacking apart something with a sword or mace though since those channel energy from the positive energy plane and would probably directly attack the link to the negative plane.
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Postby moritheil » Wed May 23, 2001 7:00 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Treladian:
As far as undead go, you are actually slaying the body (again) and not the magic animating it. Basically, it's rendering the physical body (or the incorporeal form for things like wraiths and spectres) no longer able to channel power from the negative energy plane. Negative energy sustains them, but it doesn't really do anything if there's no longer a functional body to sustain. Clerical spells that target undead probably work differently than hacking apart something with a sword or mace though since those channel energy from the positive energy plane and would probably directly attack the link to the negative plane.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the last incarnation of the bbs, the argument made for magic arrows and weapons hitting wraithforms (and others not hitting wraithforms) was that you needed a magic weapon to disrupt the cohesion of the energy matrix that animated the undead. If I recall correctly, you were in on that discussion as well, so long ago. Image

And it's been my understanding that undead had a negative energy attribute but didn't themselves "channel" negative energy. I could be wrong though.
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Postby Treladian » Fri May 25, 2001 12:26 am

Well, not undead are the same obviously. While undead don't necesarily channel negative energy, the ones that would be capable of draining levels in D&D (vampires, wraiths, spectres, and probably some others) do. I THINK that other undead have some link to the negative energy plane too, but not as strong as one compared to undead that can do energy drains.

I think a lot of the discussion on whether or not magical arrows should be needed to hit wraithforms had more to do with the fact that there were 4 types of arrows on the mud, 3 of which were non-magical, the other which costs about 100 p each. More of a "well what else are we gonna use to hit them" kind of argument than anything else.

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