Illusionist blues

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Nassis
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Illusionist blues

Postby Nassis » Sun May 27, 2001 2:42 pm

Illusionists suck.

I promised myself I'd wait until I got 21 before I whined on the board, so now it's time... :P
I know I'm not high level and am probably a twinkish dork, but illusionist still suck. So far, anyway.

First, the spells we get that are not the same as all other mages:
1st:
invis on lvl 1: useless, duration level based. approx one second on lvl 1...

2nd:
blackthorn: seems like same damage as 2nd level dam spell other mages get, less than mm.

3rd:
change self: dont work
armor: like all armor, everyone else have it on lower circle

4th:
spook: negligible damage, (small) chance to stun, seems useless.
phantom steed: great, except it wont work for evil ills... (some imm said that'll get fixed)
scarlet outline: nice, but bugged. have to target it even when engaged. (killed me once so far Image )

5th:
shadow magic: about double mm damage, about what it should be?
true sight: seems great for goodies, nice to yuans. make it give "darkvision"? (compensate for only evils having ultra...)
shadow burst: seems good, not sure how much damage area spells normally do...
doppelganger: cool, except (I assume) it eats alot of xp. :P (make it commandable but still poof if hit, so we get a "wonder if whatever is in there is aggro" pet? should be same race and align as doppeled pc... As some gnome said, illusionist really need an exploration pet.)


So, at 20th level, my only really working unique ill spell was scarlet outline. Except for the bug...

Illusionists are supposed to be a mix of enchanter and invoker. So far I feel like I have less damage than enchater and less util than invokers.
On vanilla xp-runs I'm a lvl 21 mage with magic missile as my only worthwhile spell...

Add to this the suckage of yuan-tis... (I won't even argue this, you all know it's true.)

Yes, I know I'm whining, but it's pretty much my first time (on the boards) and the topic deserves to be whined about. How many illusionists do you see running around? Considering it's a new and interesting (?) class, not many...


(That felt good. Now feel free to flame and correct me.)
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Sun May 27, 2001 3:26 pm

*laughs insanely*

Less damage than an enchanter? Have you PLAYED an enchanter?

We get magic missile. That's basically our best offense spell til we get cone of cold at 26(and even then it's not comparable.. Constriction is decent, but NONE of our spellcasts fall under our spec like every other new class got, hmmm....). Lightning bolt does shit. Chill does basically shit.

We get more exp for damage, but no damage spells.

Cone is useful, but there's a lot of spells in 6th circle I'd rather mem, but that's because I am a true Enchanter, and detest having to mem damage spells to get experience. I won't even go there actually, whole nother whine fest.

From what I saw of Illusionists, they did decent damage, and had some quirky util spells... At higher levels. You're in the same boat us Enchanters are, from the sounds of it. You are unhappy with the class(or suck as you put it), til higher levels. Til then, it's just a tedium of exp and leveling, hoping to get to the magic levels where you truly shine.

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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 05-27-2001).]
Xizz
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Postby Xizz » Sun May 27, 2001 3:42 pm

build up your spellcast illusion and specialize illusion. Your shadow magic does significantly more than your magic missile if it works, which it doesn't most of the time. It actually can do 200 pts of damage, which is more than double your shadow bolt damage. You haven't even started to see the real problem of shadow magic yet :P

Shadow magic is a 5th circle spell. Thus it should go thru all minor globed mobs and it does. However! it only goes thru if the mob doesn't believe the spell. That is if the spell fails to create a form, such as shocking grasp etc. In which case it does half damage or quarter damage, around 50 pts or so. When the mob does believe the spell as a better offensive, it gets blocked by their globe. How silly is that ^_^

I suggested it earlier, there should be some other spell that's useful in the third circle, I would even take invis in the third circle, or minor creation or something useful! What am I going to do with 6 phantom armors when i get to level 30 for that circle?
Kiloppile
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Postby Kiloppile » Sun May 27, 2001 5:50 pm

Give me a break. You listed damage spells at a few circles that enchanters don't even get one, and of course you described them as doing almost no damage.

Use GC, and tell us exactly how much damage they do on average.
Nassis
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Postby Nassis » Sun May 27, 2001 8:45 pm

Kilo: pull up help files and see, enchanters get 9 different damage spells, illusionists 8. Enchanters do not get damage on circles 3, 5 and 10, illusionist not on 3, 4, 6 and 8.
(I'm not saying anything about quality, just want to set you straight on availability.)

I did the average damage thing with gc on spells, but my post was long enough. Ah, well, here you are...
Magic missile avg ~65, blackthorns ~42, spook ~20 (I dont count that as a damage spell), shadow magic ~94. None of these are based on enough castings for statistically sound numbers. Also, I know it'll go up and yadda yadda. One shouldn't have to play to high levels to get ones class to work.

(Please don't flame me for adding this, but minute meteors (voker 3rd) does ~50 damage per meteor. From a 17th lvl caster. A _lot_ more than other <=4th voker spells. I havent had an enchanter on hand to test any.)

Xiss: Why am I not surprised :P

Malecar: until 21, ill and ench both have just mm. Enchanter get damage spell om 4th. Guess who gets bonus damage xp. Not illusionists.
If you dont mem damage because you get better spells you'd rather mem, does that make illusionist better? I get no better spells.

I know this changes on higher levels, I haven't played on later levels, I von't say anything about them. I'm saying until 5th circle, illusionists (at least evils) are Very Broken.

Anyway, lack of damage is a big point, but the general broken-ness bothers me more.
I am NOT trying to have illusionist be a better invoker. Repeat I do NOT want invoker, I want a functioning, usefull class (I provide nearly no useful service to a group at all, solo ability is less than invoker)...


Damn, another long post. *sigh*

[This message has been edited by Nassis (edited 05-27-2001).]
Kiloppile
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Postby Kiloppile » Mon May 28, 2001 1:46 am

OK... well, lightning bolt is ~45 from my testing (24th level enchanter)... my magic missiles are the same, of course. And shadow magic is a specialized spell... Damage will be *much* higher as you hit around 30th level I'm guessing.

The real difference is enchanters basically don't get specialized nukes, ever. I like enchanters, just don't think that they nuke for anything more than illusionists.

Keep in mind that doppleganger, while it probably doesn't give the caster damage exp, is quite likely to do one heck of a lot more damage than anything an enchanter gets in that level range.
Bopple
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Postby Bopple » Mon May 28, 2001 3:42 am

Yeah illusionists suck.
On beta opening there were abou 10 illusionists on-line. And now what?

There is 1 more problem with illusionists not commented.
1st circle invisibility. - yeah i can leave hyssk with this at 1st lvl if i got some cash. that's fine. but shadow bolt, detect magic, detect invisibility, invisibility all in the same circle. that tore down your spell slots. and even with many many 2nd 3rd spell slots unused.
Ah...and that invisibility is even an enchant spell still.

[This message has been edited by Bopple (edited 05-28-2001).]
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Mon May 28, 2001 4:09 am

Yep, perhaps the poster failed to realize I said that.

Specialization skill helps a TON on damage. Even magic missile.

Oh, and for the record, we enchanters weren't given the spiffy restring and had our nukes moved to our primary spellcast, so don't get pissy at me.


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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
Corth
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Postby Corth » Mon May 28, 2001 5:16 am

Illusionists aren't very great at low levels...

But that doesn't really mean much does it? If the high level spells are worthwhile then people will deal with subpar nukage at low levels.

The real question is whether the high level spells are any good. I don't think anyone can really know at this point.

Corth
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Mon May 28, 2001 5:24 am

Yup, Corth hit it right on the head.


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Shevarash
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Postby Shevarash » Mon May 28, 2001 6:09 am

Ahem. In no particular order:


1) Illusionists are a brand new class, and there will be problems with them. If you're playing one, consider yourself to be beta-testing them.

2) Pleae try and post constructive criticism - it is in your best interest, and makes my job of finishing them much easier. Image

3) Blackthorns does the same damage as chill touch, burning hands, etc.

4) It is pointless to compare ANY other spellcasting classes damage to invokers. Invokers will ALWAYS do better damage - because that is ALL they do.

5) All mage classes are pretty similar up until about the 26-30 range. Weenie damage, a handful of semi useful utility spells, etc. It all pays off at the higher levels - and if it doesn't quite yet for illusionists, that is somethign we'll find out and fix.

6) I am considering adding a mini-pet spell for illusionists, for exploration purposes.



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<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
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Valeos/Dorac
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Postby Valeos/Dorac » Mon May 28, 2001 9:39 am

Might want to mention that illusionists also get a buttload more hit points than other mage classes Image
Xizz
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Postby Xizz » Mon May 28, 2001 11:56 am

I really like the idea of the class and would like to see it more viable, so I'm going to try to list some constructive criticism. I've only played up to level 23 so I'm not too sure about their true powers at high levels, so this is only from a low level point of view. Also please note this is from a yuanti point of view. *'s are spells that I believe should be looked over again.

1st circle - the whole set of spells are great for this circle, however there are just too many useful spells all bunched into one circle.
- detect invis and detect magic are nice to have mem'd at high levels. As is invisibility.
* Shadow Bolt really should have been made spellcast illusion, I will explain this later on after I go thru all the spell circles I've seen.

2nd circle - this circle has a nice set of all round spells also.
- Minor creation is useful if you keep one mem'd at all times.
- Blackthorn as the offensive is decent enough for it's damage/circle.
- Dispel Invisible sort of useless at low levels, but still would fit as a permanently mem'd spell while zoning.
- Faerie Fire this was definitely a useful spell for when the illusionist is grouped with hitters.

*3rd circle - this is the circle that causes illusionists the most problems. There is no need to have more than 5 spells from this circle mem'd at all times.
- Change Self assuming that it does work the way it reads, this would be a useful spell to have mem'd at all times, however there is no need to mem two of these at all.
- Locate Object even if you want variety in your circle, having more than one of these mem'd at all times is really pointless.
- Phantom Armor this is a nice spell to have as an illusionist, no real complaints about it being in this circle, however, the problem is there is no real need to have more than two of these mem'd at all times.

4th circle - this circle has a really nice variety of spells. A lot of utility spells mixed in with one offensive spell which is more useful for the stun ability makes this circle all useful.
- Teleport for those who know how to use this spell at the right times, this is a great spell for traveling.
- Spook the damage on this spell is a little weak, however there could be a few factors involved in the low damage, one of which could be the fact that spellcast illusion is generally pretty low in skill at this point, or even at level 23 which I've obtained.
- Dispel Magic a generally useful spell in groups, no real need to have it mem'd at all times, but still nice to have.
- Levitate good spell to have mem'd at all times as it is generally useful, even if you do have a fly item.
* Scarlet Outline this spell is probably the most useful for this circle in groups. However as most people have already noted, the caster must specifify a target for this spell which really hurts it's usability for xp usage in some areas.
- Farsee nice spell to fool around with, peek thru doors etc.
- Phantom Steed this spell was probably one of the reasons I got taken to any zones :P well not really I think they just took pity on me ^_^
- Mass Invisiblity a good spell to have mem'd going into zones.

5th Circle - This spell has some potential and some problems.
* Shadow Magic this is a good all round spell. Has a problem working against minor globes but that's probably a bug which should be fixed soon I hope. I've posted the problem in an earlier post in this thread.
* True Sight this spell is good and yet really bad. The good part of the spell is all the different detects that it gives you all bundled up in one spell. The bad part is the circle it's actually in. This spell grants the victim a new and improved vision, wherein they can detect magic, alignment, invisibility, and heat forms. In comparison, detect magic and invisibility is a first circle spell for an illusionist. All evil race characters already have infravision. So putting this spell in this circle realistically only adds detect alignment for the evil race character. This is not very useful for most smart evil race characters. You look in the next room and you see some wierdo there you've never seen before... ok, so you know he's good aligned... Even if you didn't know that most evil race characters would still be prepared for a fight from that mob, especially if the mob was called blah blah paladin blah blah. So seeing something that's good aligned isn't all that useful. Add to that the fact that there are even evil aligned mobs running around in zones that are agro to begin with, and you really see that there's no point in knowing what alignment something is to begin with. There are trolls in trollbark that are aggressive to trolls! So what does this spell do effectively for an evil race illusionist? detect magic and detect invisibility in a nifty combo :P My suggestion would be to put this into the third circle spell, however I do note that infravision is at the lowest a 4th level spell for those who can cast it so this may not be that viable.
- Dimension Door great spell for a yuanti who can't ride their steeds Image
- Shadow Burst generally area spells aren't that useful in most situations, however this is nice to have
* Doppleganger this spell seems to be another version of haste from the description, however there are some innate problems with it's usefulness. From what I've seen of this spell it creates a pet that's equivalent to the target that it's been casted upon. However this dopple doesn't have the same hit/dam that the target would have, instead it's some sort of generic hitter with some natural hit/dam that is probably the same as the target when they're naked. The problem with this is that if a player can hit the mob that he's fighting, the dopple doesn't always hit it, even worse there are times when the dopple can't hit stuff that the player can. Some other minor things, this spell apparently affects other people's ability to order their pets around so even though you can cast this on a psionicist, they would have some problems with ordering their pets out of the room, so they tell me. Also, this spell would be better if someone got xp for it's hitting. One other thing, as a spell that's similar to haste, isn't this one circle too low?

6th circle at a glance from what the descriptions of the spells say, only displacement seems to be useful in general. Nondetection probably could be useful for exploration purposes. However, I don't really see illusionists as explorers since they don't have pets, high ac, high hps(as in hitter type hps), or word of recall. As an evil race group exploring a zone, they're more likely to just say "spell up, time to spank something." Tranquility reads as if it's useful, however the darkness skill that a drow gets as an innate seems to be even better because there isn't a chance that darkness would fail. However it's really hard for them to remember that skill in time to use it, heck I bet half of them don't even remember that skill at all ^_^.

* Some general problems with the class. Earlier on I had mentioned that shadow bolt should be a spellcast illusion spell, and this is the reason. If you look at all the spells an illusionist can cast up to level 23, the only spellcast illusion spells are:
- Blackthorn, low damage relatively high mem time.
- Spook, even worse damage to mem time ratio.
- Scarlet Outline, having to target something with this spell makes it dangerous to cast, also no need for casting this more than once a battle so not much of a chance to build it up from this skill.
- Shadow Magic, probably the only spell that would be useful to cast for it's damage/mem time ratio
- Shadow Burst, well it's an area spell, not going to be useful as a spell to cast to build up spellcast illusion.
- True Sight, says it's an illusion type spell, however, it's failable at 23 and has a relatively high mem time so not worth it to use to build up the skill, unless you want to spend hours doing it.
- Change self, doesn't work right now so can't use it to build up the skill.

If you look at the list of illusion spells, only blackthorn, spook and shadow magic are the ones being casted most often. However the problem is blackthorn doesn't do much damage for it's mem time nor does spook and shadow magic is obtained after the specialization illusion is learned. As the spells are currently, all I've casted in xp groups as an illusionist is the shadow bolt and shadow magic spells then, went to remem. As an evil race group, you mem at your own risk as the group will generally continue to plow thru whatever else there is w/o waiting for everyone to be fully mem'd. Thus to get xp as an illusionist your best bet is to try to cast your best damage/mem time ratio spells, which would be shadow magic and shadow bolt. Thus it would be nice to have shadow magic set to an illusion type spell. Another way to work around this, taking after enchanters, would be to have some sort of useful combat offensive/defensive that is a spellcast illusion. Some form of debilitating spell that illusionists could cast against the mobs.


[This message has been edited by Xizz (edited 05-28-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Xizz (edited 05-28-2001).]
Kiloppile
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Postby Kiloppile » Mon May 28, 2001 2:23 pm

Dude... shadow bolt is LISTED as spellcast illusion... so... if it's not spellcast illusion, then you should post THAT.

Does it actually notch invocation?
Xizz
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Postby Xizz » Mon May 28, 2001 2:28 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiloppile:
<B>Dude... shadow bolt is LISTED as spellcast illusion... so... if it's not spellcast illusion, then you should post THAT.

Does it actually notch invocation?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's actually a typo in the help file, it's intended as spellcast invocation from what I've been told.
Kiloppile
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Postby Kiloppile » Mon May 28, 2001 3:06 pm

Well, we should get a clarification on that from Shev... cause shadow magic is also listed as an illusion spell.

Incidentally, if these are both non-illusion spells, I'd have to agree with ya.

[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 05-28-2001).]
Nassis
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Postby Nassis » Mon May 28, 2001 9:57 pm

Shadow bolt (and shadow burst) are both listed in my skill list as illusion (well, cold Image spells and notch invocation skill. Someone (shev?) also said shadow bolt is supposed to be invoc.

To shev's points:
1) There are, and I am. Image

2) I tried, I was just so annoyed at having nothing to contribute to a group and levling slower than the conjie I had just been grouping with. Xiss did better, if a tad long. Agree with most of what he wrote... ('cept, Xiss, have you looked at the damage spook does? whatever do you cast it for?)

3) That's what I wrote. I have tested. Not complaining about it...

4) I tried hard not to, just had to mention the greatness of minute meteors. Image

5) Problem is, other mages get either damage or utility even before 26-30... I (and many others) tend to spend a lot of time getting to, and past, those levels.


Thanx people for reading and for seemingly agreeing to my somewhat blunt opening statement. Image
Kiloppile
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Postby Kiloppile » Thu May 31, 2001 5:49 pm

How is spook working since the news item saying the damage on it has been fixed? Anyone been testing this?
Xizz
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Postby Xizz » Thu May 31, 2001 7:07 pm

spook does decent damage now. However when I said it was fine before, it's relative to it's usefulness. It wasn't a good spell to cast before because of it's really pathetic damage, was probably the same damage as a magic missile, a single magic missile, not the spread of five. Now however the damage is really quite good for it. It can actually do more damage than shadow magic depending on how the mob saves against that spell.
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Postby Bopple » Wed Jun 06, 2001 9:19 am

.

[This message has been edited by Bopple (edited 06-06-2001).]

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