right now i solo YOU ARE MAD mobs, which isn''t right b/c i solo faster than the avg group but not as fast as a perfect group.
more later exping now
kept this window open for like 3 hours hee heeIdeas on how to balance shamans
Ideas on how to balance shamans
-Need to balance totems. i can solo elites if i really wanted to in a couple of runs w/ totem b/c the elite can only hit the totem avg 1 a round, sometimes 2 hits. i suggest either moving summon totem to a higher level like 41 or downgrading totem ac to treant ac.
right now i solo YOU ARE MAD mobs, which isn''t right b/c i solo faster than the avg group but not as fast as a perfect group.
more later exping now kept this window open for like 3 hours hee hee
right now i solo YOU ARE MAD mobs, which isn''t right b/c i solo faster than the avg group but not as fast as a perfect group.
more later exping now
kept this window open for like 3 hours hee heeHeh spirits aren't supposed to be in town.
It's not too impossible to solo warrior type mobs anyway, I know paladins that can solo Tristan. Any warrior type class is soloable as long as you have heal spells. It's just a matter of how long it takes to solo. At this level, soloing just isn't worth the time and effort anymore. It's much easier and faster to group for exp.
As for the spirit AC, I do agree that the spirit AC really good, but I think its only good for fighting mobs up to level 40-45. For example, I was fighting the Golden Warrior yesterday and it beat the hell out of my vitted spirit. Golden warrior is a few levels higher than the elite guards i think.
[This message has been edited by Tanolm (edited 06-14-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Tanolm (edited 06-14-2001).]
It's not too impossible to solo warrior type mobs anyway, I know paladins that can solo Tristan. Any warrior type class is soloable as long as you have heal spells. It's just a matter of how long it takes to solo. At this level, soloing just isn't worth the time and effort anymore. It's much easier and faster to group for exp.
As for the spirit AC, I do agree that the spirit AC really good, but I think its only good for fighting mobs up to level 40-45. For example, I was fighting the Golden Warrior yesterday and it beat the hell out of my vitted spirit. Golden warrior is a few levels higher than the elite guards i think.
[This message has been edited by Tanolm (edited 06-14-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Tanolm (edited 06-14-2001).]
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Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tayros:
<B>Easy for you to say at level 37, Dalar. Shaman are frail casters and need the support of the spirit totem to make a beneficial gain in levels. Besides, with mobs switching, percentage of failed summon and other variables in the game, totems IMHO are a balanced bonus to playing the shaman.
Tay</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
totem makes soloing way too easy for shamans. having a tank that barely gets hit combined with healing spells and stoneskin and blind makes spirit invulnerable. with shaman offense spells, there goes the need for any assistance, u got the whole group there. when i got spirit this wipe, i started gaining levels so fast that i had like a 5 level lead from most shamans b/c lvl 21-30 mobs can only kill spirit if the mob is really lucky. i solo'd all of ssc w/ just spirit and nukes w/out even needing anybody. this is why shamans need a downgraded totem, so they don't have an unfair advantage from 21-36
<B>Easy for you to say at level 37, Dalar. Shaman are frail casters and need the support of the spirit totem to make a beneficial gain in levels. Besides, with mobs switching, percentage of failed summon and other variables in the game, totems IMHO are a balanced bonus to playing the shaman.
Tay</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
totem makes soloing way too easy for shamans. having a tank that barely gets hit combined with healing spells and stoneskin and blind makes spirit invulnerable. with shaman offense spells, there goes the need for any assistance, u got the whole group there. when i got spirit this wipe, i started gaining levels so fast that i had like a 5 level lead from most shamans b/c lvl 21-30 mobs can only kill spirit if the mob is really lucky. i solo'd all of ssc w/ just spirit and nukes w/out even needing anybody. this is why shamans need a downgraded totem, so they don't have an unfair advantage from 21-36
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiaransalee:
<B> Town, no. Lighthouses, no.
Those lighthouses are still considered part of WD.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Really? My memory must be slipping...I coulda sworn I remembered doing those elites with shaman pets.
*bonk me*
-VD
<B> Town, no. Lighthouses, no.
Those lighthouses are still considered part of WD.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Really? My memory must be slipping...I coulda sworn I remembered doing those elites with shaman pets.
*bonk me*
-VD
There may be places in towns that aren't quite flagged correctly, but that doesn't mean you *should* be using spirit pets there.
I'm guessing that's what Kia was hinting at. I've had it not so subtly suggested that I not use necro pets in certain places last wipe, because it was still considered part of the town. And the specific example I'm thinking of didn't actually bring a bunch of justice mobs down on me.
I'm guessing that's what Kia was hinting at. I've had it not so subtly suggested that I not use necro pets in certain places last wipe, because it was still considered part of the town. And the specific example I'm thinking of didn't actually bring a bunch of justice mobs down on me.
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Uthgar
- Staff Member - Coder
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Chatsworth, CA, USA
I am just now finishing the details of coding the shaman plan. I focused on three areas I saw imbalance in the shaman class: their spirits, their stun spells, and hex.
Shaman spirits still tank sufficiently well that a shaman can do solo exp all the way up to at least the high 30s, and I suspect even the mid 40s. I even grabbed eq on reboots solo that others used groups to get. Shaman spirits tank well for 2 reasons: 1) they are the same level as the shaman, and thus get a very high dodge skill, and 2) they still have sufficient hp that with vit they can safely tank mobs many levels above the shaman. Shaman spirits will be reduced in level and in hp, with a maximum pet of 40th level (which is the current maximum as well).
Shaman stun spells accumulate too much stun on the mob. These stun spells were added to give shamans a unique niche to help group survivability in the no-silence era. However, since stun accumulates, mobs would get so stunned they would never recover. Thus shaman spells will still stun, but they will not accumulate past the effect of a single stun spell.
Hex has simply too strong of an effect for a single spell. After hex lands, mobs take approximately 30% more damage than before it lands (which entirely accounts for reports of shamans doing too much damage). In addition, spells like blind succeed almost every time, making it too easy for the shaman to keep mobs blinded and easy to solo. The spellsave effect of hex is being halved, but in the place of the other half will be a hitchance modifier akin to a reverse of blur. The modifier to spellsave is still a necessity for groups to use the newer enchantments successfully, so the second half is not being lost, but being added to the cleric curse spell, which should also help to address some of the issues of shamans taking too much of a cleric's role.
The interesting thing about these changes, to me, is that shamans are losing very little in a group environment. In fact, the hitchance modifier becomes a new incentive to group a shaman.
But, shaman ability to solo in a clockwork fashion (its too easy, I've done it, Necros have to work harder at it and take more risks) is definitely reduced. However, soloing will still be possible, just not quite so straightforward.
Uthgar
P.S.: I appreciate any constructive comments.
Shaman spirits still tank sufficiently well that a shaman can do solo exp all the way up to at least the high 30s, and I suspect even the mid 40s. I even grabbed eq on reboots solo that others used groups to get. Shaman spirits tank well for 2 reasons: 1) they are the same level as the shaman, and thus get a very high dodge skill, and 2) they still have sufficient hp that with vit they can safely tank mobs many levels above the shaman. Shaman spirits will be reduced in level and in hp, with a maximum pet of 40th level (which is the current maximum as well).
Shaman stun spells accumulate too much stun on the mob. These stun spells were added to give shamans a unique niche to help group survivability in the no-silence era. However, since stun accumulates, mobs would get so stunned they would never recover. Thus shaman spells will still stun, but they will not accumulate past the effect of a single stun spell.
Hex has simply too strong of an effect for a single spell. After hex lands, mobs take approximately 30% more damage than before it lands (which entirely accounts for reports of shamans doing too much damage). In addition, spells like blind succeed almost every time, making it too easy for the shaman to keep mobs blinded and easy to solo. The spellsave effect of hex is being halved, but in the place of the other half will be a hitchance modifier akin to a reverse of blur. The modifier to spellsave is still a necessity for groups to use the newer enchantments successfully, so the second half is not being lost, but being added to the cleric curse spell, which should also help to address some of the issues of shamans taking too much of a cleric's role.
The interesting thing about these changes, to me, is that shamans are losing very little in a group environment. In fact, the hitchance modifier becomes a new incentive to group a shaman.
But, shaman ability to solo in a clockwork fashion (its too easy, I've done it, Necros have to work harder at it and take more risks) is definitely reduced. However, soloing will still be possible, just not quite so straightforward.
Uthgar
P.S.: I appreciate any constructive comments.
So with hex being halved or what not, shamans will do less damage than druids, and probably on par with illusionists then? Even before any of these changes, Necros have better pets than a shaman and outdamage a shaman and that's when the necro is targetting an unhexed mob while a shaman is targetting a hexed mob. As for mobs hexed and blind succeeding? I've had fights where mobs were hexed and succeeded to resist four blinds in a row. This is quite rare but it's possible.
Also, making hex reduce ac or making a mob easier to hit is more biased towards a good raced group. There is a large difference in the available classes for a good race and an evil race. Most of the classes for a good race involve melee classes. Most of the classes available for an evil race involve spellcasting. The only two evil race classes that are melee are rogues and warriors. That's all there is for evil races, which is why most evil race groups tend to have more spellcasters than anything else. If you look at good raced classes they have five classes, paladins, antipaladins, warriors, rogues and rangers. Thus changing hex in this fashion is totally biased. From what I recalled Uthgar mentioned he played a good raced shaman.
As for stunning mobs, in my experience there are a rare few that the stuns are really useful. There are a lot of other mobs where I wish I could stun them however, they either are unstunable or they resist magic way too much to even hit. So however you look at it, changing stun won't affect being able to solo in any way.
As for spirits being lower level. This might have reduced how effectively they helped me level Rivi. However I highly doubt that.
Also, making hex reduce ac or making a mob easier to hit is more biased towards a good raced group. There is a large difference in the available classes for a good race and an evil race. Most of the classes for a good race involve melee classes. Most of the classes available for an evil race involve spellcasting. The only two evil race classes that are melee are rogues and warriors. That's all there is for evil races, which is why most evil race groups tend to have more spellcasters than anything else. If you look at good raced classes they have five classes, paladins, antipaladins, warriors, rogues and rangers. Thus changing hex in this fashion is totally biased. From what I recalled Uthgar mentioned he played a good raced shaman.
As for stunning mobs, in my experience there are a rare few that the stuns are really useful. There are a lot of other mobs where I wish I could stun them however, they either are unstunable or they resist magic way too much to even hit. So however you look at it, changing stun won't affect being able to solo in any way.
As for spirits being lower level. This might have reduced how effectively they helped me level Rivi. However I highly doubt that.
Biased, eh?
1. Evil races have access to clerics, which if you read his post means you will have access to the full effects of hex... you just have to have a group.
2. Sure, goodies have all sorts of hitter classes, but in reality, the only unique class that could conceivably be considered better would be rangers. Rogues are supposed to do the most melee damage at the high end, so even that's debatable.
3. Evil warrior types don't have access, in general (drow obvious exception, but how many drow are there) to dex, but they *do* have access to strength in abundance. Adding an effect that increases hit chance is *presisely* what they can use.
If you actually look at the groups, I'd bet there are just as many "hitter types" in evil groups as good groups.
I also think that lowering the level of spirits and lowering their hp somewhat will have a much greater effect than you think.
As for on par with Illusionists, you really need to think about that for a second. Illusionists do barely more damage than an enchanter, from what I've been told (by illusionists themselves).
No nukes were taken away or downgraded... so I doubt very seriously that you're going to lose something like 80% of your damage.
Incidentally, as a comparison, i watched a shaman that was one level above me doing a mob that I had just done, in two runs of *all* of my enchanter nukes... he did it in about 2/3 of his nukes, in something like one fifth the time. MAYBE he'll have to use nearly all his nukes now, though I doubt this.
I also asked him to hex one for me, so I could see how I did... it still took me two runs, but I threw probably 10 less nukes at it (mind you some of those are magic missiles).
1. Evil races have access to clerics, which if you read his post means you will have access to the full effects of hex... you just have to have a group.
2. Sure, goodies have all sorts of hitter classes, but in reality, the only unique class that could conceivably be considered better would be rangers. Rogues are supposed to do the most melee damage at the high end, so even that's debatable.
3. Evil warrior types don't have access, in general (drow obvious exception, but how many drow are there) to dex, but they *do* have access to strength in abundance. Adding an effect that increases hit chance is *presisely* what they can use.
If you actually look at the groups, I'd bet there are just as many "hitter types" in evil groups as good groups.
I also think that lowering the level of spirits and lowering their hp somewhat will have a much greater effect than you think.
As for on par with Illusionists, you really need to think about that for a second. Illusionists do barely more damage than an enchanter, from what I've been told (by illusionists themselves).
No nukes were taken away or downgraded... so I doubt very seriously that you're going to lose something like 80% of your damage.
Incidentally, as a comparison, i watched a shaman that was one level above me doing a mob that I had just done, in two runs of *all* of my enchanter nukes... he did it in about 2/3 of his nukes, in something like one fifth the time. MAYBE he'll have to use nearly all his nukes now, though I doubt this.
I also asked him to hex one for me, so I could see how I did... it still took me two runs, but I threw probably 10 less nukes at it (mind you some of those are magic missiles).
REDUCING SPIRITS:
Good idea. Without a phat spirit I wouldn't have been able to solo so much (although I'd probably still be the same level)
STUNNING:
Probably will have a minimal effect for soloing. When I soloed, stunning didn't help me at all because I always blinded the mob. I already have a hard enough stunning caster type mobs as it is anyway.
HEX:
Interesting change to hex cause I didn't even realize it was that good. Too bad I didn't use it more (it didn't effect my soloing btw cause i didn't use it) The hex change definitely makes it a good spell for group fighting, but I hope it is stackable with other AC reducing enchantments. I don't know much about the evil classes, so I wont comment on how the new hex will effect the evils.
Good idea. Without a phat spirit I wouldn't have been able to solo so much (although I'd probably still be the same level)
STUNNING:
Probably will have a minimal effect for soloing. When I soloed, stunning didn't help me at all because I always blinded the mob. I already have a hard enough stunning caster type mobs as it is anyway.
HEX:
Interesting change to hex cause I didn't even realize it was that good. Too bad I didn't use it more (it didn't effect my soloing btw cause i didn't use it) The hex change definitely makes it a good spell for group fighting, but I hope it is stackable with other AC reducing enchantments. I don't know much about the evil classes, so I wont comment on how the new hex will effect the evils.
I'm highly tempted just to flame you Kiloppile because you always seem to post a response that that is woefully uninformed and based upon conjecture.
Point 1:
So it's ok for clerics to complain about having their forte barely infringed upon while a shaman has to stand there and take it up the wazoo when a shaman's forte is taken away by half?
Point 2:
Antipaladins were great from the ptesting I've done during alpha. They did serious damage, they have as many defensive skills as a warrior and they contributed to overall group damage total. Paladins do decent damage have access to full heal and in addition have a full range of defensive skills that place them on par with a warrior. Rangers are about equivalent to rogues in damage until both classes obtain uber gear. To close point two, it's not how many unique classes there are but rather the fact that each of them are unique enough for people to want to play them all.
Point 3:
Adding a +hit chance to hex doesn't make any difference to critical chance rate. You can critical hit mobs that you normally have no chance of hitting at all. Thus it would stand that critical hit rate is barely affected by your actual chance to hit a mob.
Point 4:
I solely play an evil race. I have a rogue, a warrior, a shaman, an illusionist, two in their twenties, one in the thirties and one in the fourties. So I DO know what evil groups generally tend to consist of.
Point 5:
This is purely your opinion and I have no proof either way to contest it or support it.
Point 6:
What level illusionist are you talking to? Have you seen their high level spells? I haven't seen them, however I know that puppet spell on its own w/o hex can do the equivalent of a shadow magic spell that my illusionist at level 24 can cast.
Point 7:
It's true that no nukes were taken away. However hex was an important part of the "nuke" arsenal that a shaman has. It effectively upgraded the damage by 10-30%. However the overall damage of the spells were still pathetic compared to anything a necro can do. This isn't counting a necro's wraith pets which effectively triple their power at... level 36? maybe lower maybe higher. I don't recall when they can get a second wraith at all. This doesn't even count into effect when a necro can get a third pet which effectively quadruples the damage a necro can do.
Point 8 & 9:
A shaman overall gets more nukes than an enchanter does, there's almost a nuke for every single circle. While an enchanter doesn't have nearly as much. In addition the level difference could also be one of the important ones where quick chant becomes more important so they are able to cast their spells faster or their spellcast/specialize spirit notches higher so they're doing more damage. I am not well versed in all the available spells that an enchanter has so I can't really tell you what the damage difference really is. However I can tell you I have seen puppet spells do barely over 100 damage and spirit wrack that have done barely over 200 damage this is on unhexed mobs.
[This message has been edited by Xizz (edited 06-14-2001).]
Point 1:
So it's ok for clerics to complain about having their forte barely infringed upon while a shaman has to stand there and take it up the wazoo when a shaman's forte is taken away by half?
Point 2:
Antipaladins were great from the ptesting I've done during alpha. They did serious damage, they have as many defensive skills as a warrior and they contributed to overall group damage total. Paladins do decent damage have access to full heal and in addition have a full range of defensive skills that place them on par with a warrior. Rangers are about equivalent to rogues in damage until both classes obtain uber gear. To close point two, it's not how many unique classes there are but rather the fact that each of them are unique enough for people to want to play them all.
Point 3:
Adding a +hit chance to hex doesn't make any difference to critical chance rate. You can critical hit mobs that you normally have no chance of hitting at all. Thus it would stand that critical hit rate is barely affected by your actual chance to hit a mob.
Point 4:
I solely play an evil race. I have a rogue, a warrior, a shaman, an illusionist, two in their twenties, one in the thirties and one in the fourties. So I DO know what evil groups generally tend to consist of.
Point 5:
This is purely your opinion and I have no proof either way to contest it or support it.
Point 6:
What level illusionist are you talking to? Have you seen their high level spells? I haven't seen them, however I know that puppet spell on its own w/o hex can do the equivalent of a shadow magic spell that my illusionist at level 24 can cast.
Point 7:
It's true that no nukes were taken away. However hex was an important part of the "nuke" arsenal that a shaman has. It effectively upgraded the damage by 10-30%. However the overall damage of the spells were still pathetic compared to anything a necro can do. This isn't counting a necro's wraith pets which effectively triple their power at... level 36? maybe lower maybe higher. I don't recall when they can get a second wraith at all. This doesn't even count into effect when a necro can get a third pet which effectively quadruples the damage a necro can do.
Point 8 & 9:
A shaman overall gets more nukes than an enchanter does, there's almost a nuke for every single circle. While an enchanter doesn't have nearly as much. In addition the level difference could also be one of the important ones where quick chant becomes more important so they are able to cast their spells faster or their spellcast/specialize spirit notches higher so they're doing more damage. I am not well versed in all the available spells that an enchanter has so I can't really tell you what the damage difference really is. However I can tell you I have seen puppet spells do barely over 100 damage and spirit wrack that have done barely over 200 damage this is on unhexed mobs.
[This message has been edited by Xizz (edited 06-14-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xizz:
[B]I'm highly tempted just to flame you Kiloppile because you always seem to post a response that that is woefully uninformed and based upon conjecture.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's fine. I intentionally pulled out the flame aspects of my original post. Frankly, your first post seemed to be a knee-jerk reaction to something that you had to know was coming, with all the conversations about shaman abilities. In my RL group, we're all boggling at the depth and breadth of abilities the shaman was allowed to have... when you consider all of the utility/save your ass spells you guys have.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Point 1:
So it's ok for clerics to complain about having their forte barely infringed upon while a shaman has to stand there and take it up the wazoo when a shaman's forte is taken away by half?
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"Their forte." Interesting choice. A shaman's forte isn't the ability to heal an entire group at once, nor ancestral shield to protect the party from area damage. Nor to provide that emergency stone skin or heal. Nope, according to you the "forte" of a shaman is to provide a penalty to the spell save of the mob. Yep, that's all they do... since it's their "forte." BTW, in future I expect to see evil logs with you in them and NEVER see another group heal, because it's completely unimportant.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Point 2:
Antipaladins were great from the ptesting I've done during alpha. They did serious damage, they have as many defensive skills as a warrior and they contributed to overall group damage total. Paladins do decent damage have access to full heal and in addition have a full range of defensive skills that place them on par with a warrior. Rangers are about equivalent to rogues in damage until both classes obtain uber gear. To close point two, it's not how many unique classes there are but rather the fact that each of them are unique enough for people to want to play them all.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I totally disagree. The thing to measure here is not the assortment, the variation, or the "gee I'd like to play this particular class" but how much melee damage is done, period. Having access to the best tanking class (if you know anything about antis and paladins, you'll realize that they are lousy tanks compared to warriors at the high end... watch what happens on a roar if you really question this) and the best damage class (rogues). A warrior will NEVER accidentally remove his shield (ok, if yer not protted I suppose it could get vaped, but that's carelessness in the face of a breath weapon)... paladins/antis get knocked off their horses routinely, and then have to tank without their best defensive skill or (SPANK if you do this in a zone) flee out re-mount and come back in.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Point 3:
Adding a +hit chance to hex doesn't make any difference to critical chance rate. You can critical hit mobs that you normally have no chance of hitting at all. Thus it would stand that critical hit rate is barely affected by your actual chance to hit a mob.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The fact that they have high strength DOES give them crits, but this is NOT what I was referring to. They have a harder time hitting because of a couple of things: dex is one... slightly lower hitroll natively... and the other is the paly and anti-paly thing that actually sets them apart, their bonus to HIT with 2-handed weapons (actually i'm not sure the anti even gets this). Increasing a high strength warrior's ability to hit without switching into more hit gear will allow them to wear much more dam gear and they will still hit, which is my point here.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Point 4:
I solely play an evil race. I have a rogue, a warrior, a shaman, an illusionist, two in their twenties, one in the thirties and one in the fourties. So I DO know what evil groups generally tend to consist of.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That may well be true. If it is true that there aren't 3 or 4 warriors to bring along for a group (which is what we're really talking about here, goodies don't bring 3 warrs, a paly, an anti, a ranger, and 2 rogues, after all) then the evils will be very sorry for this fact on the super high-end encounters. I suspect that your assumption is the goodies are loading up with more than 5 hitters in a group... that would also assume we have enchanters coming out our ears.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Point 5:
This is purely your opinion and I have no proof either way to contest it or support it.
Point 6:
What level illusionist are you talking to? Have you seen their high level spells? I haven't seen them, however I know that puppet spell on its own w/o hex can do the equivalent of a shadow magic spell that my illusionist at level 24 can cast.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey, maybe they're lying to me. And maybe they're lying to everyone else on this bbs, but the posts are here, man. I would suggest you post on those discussions when you see things that you know are inacurrate.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Point 7:
It's true that no nukes were taken away. However hex was an important part of the "nuke" arsenal that a shaman has. It effectively upgraded the damage by 10-30%. However the overall damage of the spells were still pathetic compared to anything a necro can do. This isn't counting a necro's wraith pets which effectively triple their power at... level 36? maybe lower maybe higher. I don't recall when they can get a second wraith at all. This doesn't even count into effect when a necro can get a third pet which effectively quadruples the damage a necro can do.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Necros get 2 wraiths at 31. Played one to 46 last wipe. They get a 3rd wraith at 48. If you count the pets for damage on the necro, you also assume that you will never take any area damage, as they explode at the first sign of it. Also, stone skin was taken away from their pets this wipe. I sincerely doubt that Todrael, who seemed to be quite effective at soloing, somehow forgot how to play when he hit about 38. And he claims that they basically can't solo past that point, or they do so VERY slowly.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Point 8 & 9:
A shaman overall gets more nukes than an enchanter does, there's almost a nuke for every single circle. While an enchanter doesn't have nearly as much. In addition the level difference could also be one of the important ones where quick chant becomes more important so they are able to cast their spells faster or their spellcast/specialize spirit notches higher so they're doing more damage. I am not well versed in all the available spells that an enchanter has so I can't really tell you what the damage difference really is. However I can tell you I have seen puppet spells do barely over 100 damage and spirit wrack that have done barely over 200 damage this is on unhexed mobs.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Which means that your puppet spell does more than my cone (6th circle) on average, most likely... and it also has a secondary effect. I don't have 8th circle spells yet, but my next single-target is at 9th anyway. I average 110-115 damage now on a cone at 32nd level. In actuality, if Uthgar is right that damage was going up 30% from this spell, I would expect that it would still go up by 15-20% or so with a reduced version. You're liable to see diminishing returns on the last little bit of the spell.
Additionally, the fact that your damage spells are all spirit is part of the equation, not just some side note. The reason your spells do more damage is quite likely because of this effect.
Taking away half of the effect of hex, and replacing it with something else which *DOES* stack with the other ac effects is a pseudo-downgrade. Essentially, they have INCREASED the power of a group that brings both a shaman and a cleric... this addressess two issues at once... I understand that it's upsetting when your class gets messed with. I played an invoker last wipe, and we were tweaked often.
But honestly, I think you will find that when these changes go in, you will notice very little difference in the effectiveness of your spells. Your pets are going to be reduced in effectiveness, but at your level I don't know how much of an effect that will have on a 45+ shaman anyway.
There are many, many, many more evil things that could have been done to shamans. I know 2 players who have been on sojourn for the last 4-5 years at LEAST who were suggesting some of the following:
1. Remove stone skin
2. Remove spirit
3. Remove hex, it's an over-powered spell
Given this environment, I think shamans should be glad that they got this downgrade, not something harsher. I also think that lower level shamans (read 21-35ish) will notice the weaker pet far more than you will.
If you can't recognize the fact that shamans were a tad over-powered, or that just changing hex to be half as effective on the primary effect (while adding a secondary one that will not be nearly as useless as you seem to think) while making sure that groups of both evils and goodies will have the full effect if they want to doesn't completely fubar your class then I don't think there's anything anyone could say.
[B]I'm highly tempted just to flame you Kiloppile because you always seem to post a response that that is woefully uninformed and based upon conjecture.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's fine. I intentionally pulled out the flame aspects of my original post. Frankly, your first post seemed to be a knee-jerk reaction to something that you had to know was coming, with all the conversations about shaman abilities. In my RL group, we're all boggling at the depth and breadth of abilities the shaman was allowed to have... when you consider all of the utility/save your ass spells you guys have.
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Point 1:
So it's ok for clerics to complain about having their forte barely infringed upon while a shaman has to stand there and take it up the wazoo when a shaman's forte is taken away by half?
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"Their forte." Interesting choice. A shaman's forte isn't the ability to heal an entire group at once, nor ancestral shield to protect the party from area damage. Nor to provide that emergency stone skin or heal. Nope, according to you the "forte" of a shaman is to provide a penalty to the spell save of the mob. Yep, that's all they do... since it's their "forte." BTW, in future I expect to see evil logs with you in them and NEVER see another group heal, because it's completely unimportant.
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Point 2:
Antipaladins were great from the ptesting I've done during alpha. They did serious damage, they have as many defensive skills as a warrior and they contributed to overall group damage total. Paladins do decent damage have access to full heal and in addition have a full range of defensive skills that place them on par with a warrior. Rangers are about equivalent to rogues in damage until both classes obtain uber gear. To close point two, it's not how many unique classes there are but rather the fact that each of them are unique enough for people to want to play them all.
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I totally disagree. The thing to measure here is not the assortment, the variation, or the "gee I'd like to play this particular class" but how much melee damage is done, period. Having access to the best tanking class (if you know anything about antis and paladins, you'll realize that they are lousy tanks compared to warriors at the high end... watch what happens on a roar if you really question this) and the best damage class (rogues). A warrior will NEVER accidentally remove his shield (ok, if yer not protted I suppose it could get vaped, but that's carelessness in the face of a breath weapon)... paladins/antis get knocked off their horses routinely, and then have to tank without their best defensive skill or (SPANK if you do this in a zone) flee out re-mount and come back in.
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Point 3:
Adding a +hit chance to hex doesn't make any difference to critical chance rate. You can critical hit mobs that you normally have no chance of hitting at all. Thus it would stand that critical hit rate is barely affected by your actual chance to hit a mob.
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The fact that they have high strength DOES give them crits, but this is NOT what I was referring to. They have a harder time hitting because of a couple of things: dex is one... slightly lower hitroll natively... and the other is the paly and anti-paly thing that actually sets them apart, their bonus to HIT with 2-handed weapons (actually i'm not sure the anti even gets this). Increasing a high strength warrior's ability to hit without switching into more hit gear will allow them to wear much more dam gear and they will still hit, which is my point here.
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Point 4:
I solely play an evil race. I have a rogue, a warrior, a shaman, an illusionist, two in their twenties, one in the thirties and one in the fourties. So I DO know what evil groups generally tend to consist of.
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That may well be true. If it is true that there aren't 3 or 4 warriors to bring along for a group (which is what we're really talking about here, goodies don't bring 3 warrs, a paly, an anti, a ranger, and 2 rogues, after all) then the evils will be very sorry for this fact on the super high-end encounters. I suspect that your assumption is the goodies are loading up with more than 5 hitters in a group... that would also assume we have enchanters coming out our ears.
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Point 5:
This is purely your opinion and I have no proof either way to contest it or support it.
Point 6:
What level illusionist are you talking to? Have you seen their high level spells? I haven't seen them, however I know that puppet spell on its own w/o hex can do the equivalent of a shadow magic spell that my illusionist at level 24 can cast.
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Hey, maybe they're lying to me. And maybe they're lying to everyone else on this bbs, but the posts are here, man. I would suggest you post on those discussions when you see things that you know are inacurrate.
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Point 7:
It's true that no nukes were taken away. However hex was an important part of the "nuke" arsenal that a shaman has. It effectively upgraded the damage by 10-30%. However the overall damage of the spells were still pathetic compared to anything a necro can do. This isn't counting a necro's wraith pets which effectively triple their power at... level 36? maybe lower maybe higher. I don't recall when they can get a second wraith at all. This doesn't even count into effect when a necro can get a third pet which effectively quadruples the damage a necro can do.
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Necros get 2 wraiths at 31. Played one to 46 last wipe. They get a 3rd wraith at 48. If you count the pets for damage on the necro, you also assume that you will never take any area damage, as they explode at the first sign of it. Also, stone skin was taken away from their pets this wipe. I sincerely doubt that Todrael, who seemed to be quite effective at soloing, somehow forgot how to play when he hit about 38. And he claims that they basically can't solo past that point, or they do so VERY slowly.
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Point 8 & 9:
A shaman overall gets more nukes than an enchanter does, there's almost a nuke for every single circle. While an enchanter doesn't have nearly as much. In addition the level difference could also be one of the important ones where quick chant becomes more important so they are able to cast their spells faster or their spellcast/specialize spirit notches higher so they're doing more damage. I am not well versed in all the available spells that an enchanter has so I can't really tell you what the damage difference really is. However I can tell you I have seen puppet spells do barely over 100 damage and spirit wrack that have done barely over 200 damage this is on unhexed mobs.
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Which means that your puppet spell does more than my cone (6th circle) on average, most likely... and it also has a secondary effect. I don't have 8th circle spells yet, but my next single-target is at 9th anyway. I average 110-115 damage now on a cone at 32nd level. In actuality, if Uthgar is right that damage was going up 30% from this spell, I would expect that it would still go up by 15-20% or so with a reduced version. You're liable to see diminishing returns on the last little bit of the spell.
Additionally, the fact that your damage spells are all spirit is part of the equation, not just some side note. The reason your spells do more damage is quite likely because of this effect.
Taking away half of the effect of hex, and replacing it with something else which *DOES* stack with the other ac effects is a pseudo-downgrade. Essentially, they have INCREASED the power of a group that brings both a shaman and a cleric... this addressess two issues at once... I understand that it's upsetting when your class gets messed with. I played an invoker last wipe, and we were tweaked often.
But honestly, I think you will find that when these changes go in, you will notice very little difference in the effectiveness of your spells. Your pets are going to be reduced in effectiveness, but at your level I don't know how much of an effect that will have on a 45+ shaman anyway.
There are many, many, many more evil things that could have been done to shamans. I know 2 players who have been on sojourn for the last 4-5 years at LEAST who were suggesting some of the following:
1. Remove stone skin
2. Remove spirit
3. Remove hex, it's an over-powered spell
Given this environment, I think shamans should be glad that they got this downgrade, not something harsher. I also think that lower level shamans (read 21-35ish) will notice the weaker pet far more than you will.
If you can't recognize the fact that shamans were a tad over-powered, or that just changing hex to be half as effective on the primary effect (while adding a secondary one that will not be nearly as useless as you seem to think) while making sure that groups of both evils and goodies will have the full effect if they want to doesn't completely fubar your class then I don't think there's anything anyone could say.
response 1: I had to know this was coming because I had a ton of people who don't play shamans complain to me about how fast I was leveling and how powerful I must have been.
point 1: find a group of players who know what the hell they are doing and you'll see area spells usually aren't something to be worried about. They come up rarely in the form of giants or dragons. Thus group healing isn't that important, nor is ancestral shield. Emergency stone skin? Happens once in a blue moon. Emergency heal? Even rarer, with up to 5*'s on this spell emergency, don't make me laugh.
point 2: You totally miss the point of this. Please read the full part to this before you start commenting. The point of my mentioning all the other melee classes is because the variety allows more people to play them thus there are more of these types and they are all melee types. However in an evil race group, warriors do not flourish. Do a who and look thru all the evil race and compare the number of melee classes to the number of caster classes. That should tell you all you need to know about how useful +hit would be to an evil group. It's a luxury.
Point 3:
"Evil warrior types don't have access, in general (drow obvious exception, but how many drow are there) to dex, but they *do* have access to strength in abundance. Adding an effect that increases hit chance is *presisely* what they can use."
Warriors have one of the lowest thaco and more than half the melee players in an evil race environment are warriors. Thus they consistently hit most of the targets within a reasonable level. bonus to hit makes no difference. In addition since there are so few melee players a bonus to +hit is not useful for a group at all.
point 4:
An evil group consists of, at max right now, 3 warriors and the rest are casters. That's a far cry from a good raced group. There is no reason for evils to be sorry when we encounter powerful mobs because the group is usually prepared for it, or we will try to find ways around or thru it. Why would I assume a good raced group would have enchanters out of your ears? For hastes? how dumb would I be if I made such a stupid assumption? Play it smart, get a necromancer and two wraiths, at least that's what I'm assuming they should be doing.
Point 5 & 6: I don't have time to post a response to all the biased complaints that other players have who have no clue what they're talking about. Half the people only complain about what they think they see.
Point 7: Area damage? what kind of group are you in that you'd have to fear area damage all that much? There are ways and ways around area damage and it's not hard for wraiths to survive area spells if you know what you're doing. As for Todrael he's just the most high profiled of the necros who's playing an evil race. I wouldn't count him as the best necro player because I know at least two others who have not a single problem soloing mobs that I have troubles with.
Point 8 & 9:
Your arguments are based upon the fact that nuking is even halfway primary to an enchanter class. This is not even close to being true. As a shaman this is at least partway true, what is a shaman good for? Hex, well the plan is to reduce it. Stones, not really they're for backup but with good planning this is barely needed. Heals, backup, hell no. Offensives, yes they are useful with these. Their damage is decent, not great but decent.
As for offensives having a specialization to them, that doesn't necessarily mean they do more damage because of it, the whole spell damage range could be tweaked so that it would fall between a set range given the specialization.
I frankly don't care about the changes, I can live with them. What I do care about is how many people complain about something they know nothing about.
I also played an invoker last wipe, I had no complaints about the changes at all. They still had their job, they still excelled at it so they were fine.
Lets look at the three things you and other people who probably haven't played shamans proposed as changes.
Remove stone skin, as a shaman it's not all that powerful. It helps but it doesn't change much for the class. It doesn't necessarily make them any weaker.
Remove spirit, sure remove one of the things that define the class. In a group situation they don't add that much, I've tested my spirits against stuff I would be killing in zoning groups, they just don't stand up.
Remove hex, this in my experience has become one of the defining spells of this class. It has become important to helping the group succeed in killing mobs faster than without and this isn't necessarily just for offensive damage spells.
As for your last statement, it's plain class envy. Play the class, get to level 40 then make your comments about how powerful the class is. I'm betting all your complaints are based upon low level shamans, and you've got no experience in a high level situation with a shaman and how useless they are in a group. So before you start complaining about how powerful they are, see how they work at high levels.
point 1: find a group of players who know what the hell they are doing and you'll see area spells usually aren't something to be worried about. They come up rarely in the form of giants or dragons. Thus group healing isn't that important, nor is ancestral shield. Emergency stone skin? Happens once in a blue moon. Emergency heal? Even rarer, with up to 5*'s on this spell emergency, don't make me laugh.
point 2: You totally miss the point of this. Please read the full part to this before you start commenting. The point of my mentioning all the other melee classes is because the variety allows more people to play them thus there are more of these types and they are all melee types. However in an evil race group, warriors do not flourish. Do a who and look thru all the evil race and compare the number of melee classes to the number of caster classes. That should tell you all you need to know about how useful +hit would be to an evil group. It's a luxury.
Point 3:
"Evil warrior types don't have access, in general (drow obvious exception, but how many drow are there) to dex, but they *do* have access to strength in abundance. Adding an effect that increases hit chance is *presisely* what they can use."
Warriors have one of the lowest thaco and more than half the melee players in an evil race environment are warriors. Thus they consistently hit most of the targets within a reasonable level. bonus to hit makes no difference. In addition since there are so few melee players a bonus to +hit is not useful for a group at all.
point 4:
An evil group consists of, at max right now, 3 warriors and the rest are casters. That's a far cry from a good raced group. There is no reason for evils to be sorry when we encounter powerful mobs because the group is usually prepared for it, or we will try to find ways around or thru it. Why would I assume a good raced group would have enchanters out of your ears? For hastes? how dumb would I be if I made such a stupid assumption? Play it smart, get a necromancer and two wraiths, at least that's what I'm assuming they should be doing.
Point 5 & 6: I don't have time to post a response to all the biased complaints that other players have who have no clue what they're talking about. Half the people only complain about what they think they see.
Point 7: Area damage? what kind of group are you in that you'd have to fear area damage all that much? There are ways and ways around area damage and it's not hard for wraiths to survive area spells if you know what you're doing. As for Todrael he's just the most high profiled of the necros who's playing an evil race. I wouldn't count him as the best necro player because I know at least two others who have not a single problem soloing mobs that I have troubles with.
Point 8 & 9:
Your arguments are based upon the fact that nuking is even halfway primary to an enchanter class. This is not even close to being true. As a shaman this is at least partway true, what is a shaman good for? Hex, well the plan is to reduce it. Stones, not really they're for backup but with good planning this is barely needed. Heals, backup, hell no. Offensives, yes they are useful with these. Their damage is decent, not great but decent.
As for offensives having a specialization to them, that doesn't necessarily mean they do more damage because of it, the whole spell damage range could be tweaked so that it would fall between a set range given the specialization.
I frankly don't care about the changes, I can live with them. What I do care about is how many people complain about something they know nothing about.
I also played an invoker last wipe, I had no complaints about the changes at all. They still had their job, they still excelled at it so they were fine.
Lets look at the three things you and other people who probably haven't played shamans proposed as changes.
Remove stone skin, as a shaman it's not all that powerful. It helps but it doesn't change much for the class. It doesn't necessarily make them any weaker.
Remove spirit, sure remove one of the things that define the class. In a group situation they don't add that much, I've tested my spirits against stuff I would be killing in zoning groups, they just don't stand up.
Remove hex, this in my experience has become one of the defining spells of this class. It has become important to helping the group succeed in killing mobs faster than without and this isn't necessarily just for offensive damage spells.
As for your last statement, it's plain class envy. Play the class, get to level 40 then make your comments about how powerful the class is. I'm betting all your complaints are based upon low level shamans, and you've got no experience in a high level situation with a shaman and how useless they are in a group. So before you start complaining about how powerful they are, see how they work at high levels.
BTW, the first character I ever watched play on Toril was a 50th level shaman. So no, I'm not ignorant on the usefulness/lack thereof of them.
One of my best friends has played a shaman for a very long time. And they did need upgrading last wipe. They have receieved a tremendous boost to their damage level.
Btw, you'd be max 40th level right now if you hadn't had stone skin.
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 06-14-2001).]
One of my best friends has played a shaman for a very long time. And they did need upgrading last wipe. They have receieved a tremendous boost to their damage level.
Btw, you'd be max 40th level right now if you hadn't had stone skin.
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 06-14-2001).]
Coupla questions:
1. When you say 3 warriors and rest are casters... is that in a 12-15 man group? Or are we talking about an 8 man group. That's quite important.
2. Do you ever plan on doing Jot or Tia? If you do, group heal is extremely useful. And since quite a bit of the high end equipment from both mobs and quests comes from Jot this becomes even more important.
1. When you say 3 warriors and rest are casters... is that in a 12-15 man group? Or are we talking about an 8 man group. That's quite important.
2. Do you ever plan on doing Jot or Tia? If you do, group heal is extremely useful. And since quite a bit of the high end equipment from both mobs and quests comes from Jot this becomes even more important.
Reading over Uthgar's changes, I'd say I agree with 2 of the 3 changes, being the stun and hex downgrades. But the spirit downgrade I'm against.
What I don't understand is what this discussion is focused on. Do people have problems with:
1. Shamans solo'ing EXPERIENCE?
2. Shamans solo'ing as a CLASS?
3. Shamans encroaching on other classes?
If you don't like shaman's doing solo exp, just move the totem to a ridiculously high level. At level 46, efficient exp is pretty much group dependant. If you were to try and do solo exp, it would take you forever to gain levels.
As for solo'ing as a class, I don't see any unbalancing factors. A level 50 Necro, with ghouls that vamp, wraiths that can heal undead and cast beltyn's for offense, can easily solo equipment or mobs that a level 50 Shaman cannot. I've asked Rivi [who's 45 atm] what his average spirit size is [remember that spirits are capped at level 40] and he reported around 350 and never above 400. I think that's a fair size considering the critical hits that mobs are dealing out now. If you make the spirits any smaller, they'll get squished. Being that you only get 3 totems, failable, per 2.5 hours, that's not alot of usage.
Other have said it before and I'll say it here. Many classes can solo different eq. It just takes patience, sometimes objects such as potions and scrolls, and some knowledge such as: does the mob track? Where's the zone ending? Level 50 trolls can solo certain items, it just takes a few runs with regen. Level 50 Paladins, with heal, holy word, and now mounted combat can also get equipment alone. The list goes on.
I would say leave spirits the way they are now and make totems a reward for attaining a high level such as 46. Don't limit the FINAL power of a shaman, just to correct the imbalance in early and mid level experience.
With the changes to hex, stun, and curse, I hope the matter between clerics and shamans is settled and people are satisfied.
Okay, on with the discussion
What I don't understand is what this discussion is focused on. Do people have problems with:
1. Shamans solo'ing EXPERIENCE?
2. Shamans solo'ing as a CLASS?
3. Shamans encroaching on other classes?
If you don't like shaman's doing solo exp, just move the totem to a ridiculously high level. At level 46, efficient exp is pretty much group dependant. If you were to try and do solo exp, it would take you forever to gain levels.
As for solo'ing as a class, I don't see any unbalancing factors. A level 50 Necro, with ghouls that vamp, wraiths that can heal undead and cast beltyn's for offense, can easily solo equipment or mobs that a level 50 Shaman cannot. I've asked Rivi [who's 45 atm] what his average spirit size is [remember that spirits are capped at level 40] and he reported around 350 and never above 400. I think that's a fair size considering the critical hits that mobs are dealing out now. If you make the spirits any smaller, they'll get squished. Being that you only get 3 totems, failable, per 2.5 hours, that's not alot of usage.
Other have said it before and I'll say it here. Many classes can solo different eq. It just takes patience, sometimes objects such as potions and scrolls, and some knowledge such as: does the mob track? Where's the zone ending? Level 50 trolls can solo certain items, it just takes a few runs with regen. Level 50 Paladins, with heal, holy word, and now mounted combat can also get equipment alone. The list goes on.
I would say leave spirits the way they are now and make totems a reward for attaining a high level such as 46. Don't limit the FINAL power of a shaman, just to correct the imbalance in early and mid level experience.
With the changes to hex, stun, and curse, I hope the matter between clerics and shamans is settled and people are satisfied.
Okay, on with the discussion
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Uthgar
- Staff Member - Coder
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Chatsworth, CA, USA
Touk asks what can be done to make spirits tank less well without lowering their level and hp. Lurgo writes that shamans' end-power should not be adverseley impacted because of an experience imbalance. They both make valid points.
So, I am going to make changes to spirits more gradual. I will just cap their level at 10 below their master, and not change their hp. This will make 50th level shamans have identical pets to what they have now, but radically lower their power of mid-level players. I have known for a long time as a player of the shaman class that it was the level of the pet that made it so good, as skills like dodge are determined by level for mobs (mobs don't really have 'skills' the same way players do). However, if this change proves insufficient, I will go on to lower spirit hp as well.
I hope this helps with some of the reservations people have about the changes I have planned. A 50th level shaman in a group should be just as useful and valuable to the group as ever before, and the main change they will see is in hex, which has a very nice new effect to compensate for the dg of the old. However, mid to low level shamans will have to struggle a bit more than they do now.
Uthgar
So, I am going to make changes to spirits more gradual. I will just cap their level at 10 below their master, and not change their hp. This will make 50th level shamans have identical pets to what they have now, but radically lower their power of mid-level players. I have known for a long time as a player of the shaman class that it was the level of the pet that made it so good, as skills like dodge are determined by level for mobs (mobs don't really have 'skills' the same way players do). However, if this change proves insufficient, I will go on to lower spirit hp as well.
I hope this helps with some of the reservations people have about the changes I have planned. A 50th level shaman in a group should be just as useful and valuable to the group as ever before, and the main change they will see is in hex, which has a very nice new effect to compensate for the dg of the old. However, mid to low level shamans will have to struggle a bit more than they do now.
Uthgar
Hello Uthgar,
Luz just told me there was a thread about shamans being downgraded, so I though I'd come check it out.
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Shaman spirits still tank sufficiently well that a shaman can do solo exp all the way up to at least the high 30s, and I suspect even the mid 40s.
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Hmmm, I guess seeing this I have to ask, do you want it to be impossible for shamans to solo? If that's the case, remove the pets. If not, I think they were sufficiently weakened already. I'd rather not have a pet than one that's so weak it's not worth the trouble to summon.
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Shaman stun spells accumulate too much stun on the mob.
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No argument on stun spells, they are extremely powerful, especially against caster mobs and on those occasions I can't get a blind off on a basher/tripper mob. Fixing the max duration will bring it down to what I thought it would be useful for in the first place, disrupting the casting of unbashable mobs.
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Hex has simply too strong of an effect for a single spell.
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Hmmm, I don't know about this one. If all I ever did was group with a couple tanks a cleric and an enchanter, I'd probably agree with you more strongly. As I usually stick to a 2-4 person group, this spell takes up a stone/heal/ray slot, so I couldn't even start using it until level 31 or my tank simply wouldn't last long enough. It's a really cool spell, maybe even a defining spell for shamans, if it wasn't, I'd never give it up for a stone/heal. If you look at the large group picture though, that's 3 different "lines" of spells (gheal, stun, and Hex) that are extremely useful in harsh situations, say fighting unbashable area-casting mobs with high magic resistance. I honestly think this spell is fine, but it should have gone to enchanters. Shamans usually use magic to defend/attack the body, not the mind, so I don't see why they have a spell that reduces magic resistance? Before reading the description of this spell, I was hoping it would be a shaman-specific ray type spell that would mess up a target's hit probabilities, damage, and chance to fumble weapons. I guess changing it to have some physical effects makes more sense, but as a whole I don't find it fits the shaman class very well. So why not take out ray, combine the easier-to-hit aspect of the changed spell with some form of ray and clean up an already overcrowded spell circle a bit?
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But, shaman ability to solo in a clockwork fashion (its too easy, I've done it, Necros have to work harder at it and take more risks) is definitely reduced. However, soloing will still be possible, just not quite so straightforward.
...
Hmmm, never having played a necro, I can't comment on that, but having played warriors and clerics, I can't say that shamans are that much better at mindless soloing. #action {feet} {bash} and before I knew my warrior was level 27, actually in a day less play time than the shaman (stupid low-shaman-hp switch crit deaths!). Same thing for the cleric I played last wipe, flame, heal, flame, heal, get out and pray, repeat. The one area where shaman have the big advantage is that their pets can recover from the fight while they pray, effectively doubling the shaman's recovery rate. That, however, is part and parcel of having a pet class in the game. As long as your pets are actually useful, it's like having a friend who's willing to flee out and give you all the kill xp, and it's hard to beat that kind of xp gain. I think you should take a firmer stand on whether or not you want pets in the game now that the focus is on PC tanks. Either embrace them and make a commitment to pet users (including soloing casters) that they aren't going to find themselves suddenly with a class they will no longer enjoy playing, or remove them entirely so people know what they are getting into before they hit level 50.
So far to level 33 shaman has been a blast to play, an I have faith that however you decide to change the class, it will remain that way!
Cheers,
Aruk/Terau
[This message has been edited by Arenor (edited 06-15-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Arenor (edited 06-15-2001).]
Luz just told me there was a thread about shamans being downgraded, so I though I'd come check it out.
...
Shaman spirits still tank sufficiently well that a shaman can do solo exp all the way up to at least the high 30s, and I suspect even the mid 40s.
...
Hmmm, I guess seeing this I have to ask, do you want it to be impossible for shamans to solo? If that's the case, remove the pets. If not, I think they were sufficiently weakened already. I'd rather not have a pet than one that's so weak it's not worth the trouble to summon.
...
Shaman stun spells accumulate too much stun on the mob.
...
No argument on stun spells, they are extremely powerful, especially against caster mobs and on those occasions I can't get a blind off on a basher/tripper mob. Fixing the max duration will bring it down to what I thought it would be useful for in the first place, disrupting the casting of unbashable mobs.
...
Hex has simply too strong of an effect for a single spell.
...
Hmmm, I don't know about this one. If all I ever did was group with a couple tanks a cleric and an enchanter, I'd probably agree with you more strongly. As I usually stick to a 2-4 person group, this spell takes up a stone/heal/ray slot, so I couldn't even start using it until level 31 or my tank simply wouldn't last long enough. It's a really cool spell, maybe even a defining spell for shamans, if it wasn't, I'd never give it up for a stone/heal. If you look at the large group picture though, that's 3 different "lines" of spells (gheal, stun, and Hex) that are extremely useful in harsh situations, say fighting unbashable area-casting mobs with high magic resistance. I honestly think this spell is fine, but it should have gone to enchanters. Shamans usually use magic to defend/attack the body, not the mind, so I don't see why they have a spell that reduces magic resistance? Before reading the description of this spell, I was hoping it would be a shaman-specific ray type spell that would mess up a target's hit probabilities, damage, and chance to fumble weapons. I guess changing it to have some physical effects makes more sense, but as a whole I don't find it fits the shaman class very well. So why not take out ray, combine the easier-to-hit aspect of the changed spell with some form of ray and clean up an already overcrowded spell circle a bit?
...
But, shaman ability to solo in a clockwork fashion (its too easy, I've done it, Necros have to work harder at it and take more risks) is definitely reduced. However, soloing will still be possible, just not quite so straightforward.
...
Hmmm, never having played a necro, I can't comment on that, but having played warriors and clerics, I can't say that shamans are that much better at mindless soloing. #action {feet} {bash} and before I knew my warrior was level 27, actually in a day less play time than the shaman (stupid low-shaman-hp switch crit deaths!). Same thing for the cleric I played last wipe, flame, heal, flame, heal, get out and pray, repeat. The one area where shaman have the big advantage is that their pets can recover from the fight while they pray, effectively doubling the shaman's recovery rate. That, however, is part and parcel of having a pet class in the game. As long as your pets are actually useful, it's like having a friend who's willing to flee out and give you all the kill xp, and it's hard to beat that kind of xp gain. I think you should take a firmer stand on whether or not you want pets in the game now that the focus is on PC tanks. Either embrace them and make a commitment to pet users (including soloing casters) that they aren't going to find themselves suddenly with a class they will no longer enjoy playing, or remove them entirely so people know what they are getting into before they hit level 50.
So far to level 33 shaman has been a blast to play, an I have faith that however you decide to change the class, it will remain that way!
Cheers,
Aruk/Terau
[This message has been edited by Arenor (edited 06-15-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Arenor (edited 06-15-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Arenor:
<B>Hello Uthgar,
Luz just told me there was a thread about shamans being downgraded, so I though I'd come check it out.
[QUOTE]
Shaman spirits still tank sufficiently well that a shaman can do solo exp all the way up to at least the high 30s, and I suspect even the mid 40s.
[B]
Hmmm, I guess seeing this I have to ask, do you want it to be impossible for shamans to solo? If that's the case, remove the pets. If not, I think they were sufficiently weakened already. I'd rather not have a pet than one that's so weak it's not worth the trouble to summon.
Shaman stun spells accumulate too much stun on the mob.
No argument on stun spells, they are extremely powerful, especially against caster mobs and on those occasions I can't get a blind off on a basher/tripper mob. Fixing the max duration will bring it down to what I thought it would be useful for in the first place, disrupting the casting of unbashable mobs.
Hex has simply too strong of an effect for a single spell.
Hmmm, I don't know about this one. If all I ever did was group with a couple tanks a cleric and an enchanter, I'd probably agree with you more strongly. As I usually stick to a 2-4 person group, this spell takes up a stone/heal/ray slot, so I couldn't even start using it until level 31 or my tank simply wouldn't last long enough. It's a really cool spell, maybe even a defining spell for shamans, if it wasn't, I'd never give it up for a stone/heal. If you look at the large group picture though, that's 3 different "lines" of spells (gheal, stun, and Hex) that are extremely useful in harsh situations, say fighting unbashable area-casting mobs with high magic resistance. I honestly think this spell is fine, but it should have gone to enchanters. Shamans usually use magic to defend/attack the body, not the mind, so I don't see why they have a spell that reduces magic resistance? Before reading the description of this spell, I was hoping it would be a shaman-specific ray type spell that would mess up a target's hit probabilities, damage, and chance to fumble weapons. I guess changing it to have some physical effects makes more sense, but as a whole I don't find it fits the shaman class very well. So why not take out ray, combine the easier-to-hit aspect of the changed spell with some form of ray and clean up an already overcrowded spell circle a bit?
But, shaman ability to solo in a clockwork fashion (its too easy, I've done it, Necros have to work harder at it and take more risks) is definitely reduced. However, soloing will still be possible, just not quite so straightforward.
Hmmm, never having played a necro, I can't comment on that, but having played warriors and clerics, I can't say that shamans are that much better at mindless soloing. #action {feet} {bash} and before I knew my warrior was level 27, actually in a day less play time than the shaman (stupid low-shaman-hp switch crit deaths!). Same thing for the cleric I played last wipe, flame, heal, flame, heal, get out and pray, repeat. The one area where shaman have the big advantage is that their pets can recover from the fight while they pray, effectively doubling the shaman's recovery rate. That, however, is part and parcel of having a pet class in the game. As long as your pets are actually useful, it's like having a friend who's willing to flee out and give you all the kill xp, and it's hard to beat that kind of xp gain. I think you should take a firmer stand on whether or not you want pets in the game now that the focus is on PC tanks. Either embrace them and make a commitment to pet users (including soloing casters) that they aren't going to find themselves suddenly with a class they will no longer enjoy playing, or remove them entirely so people know what they are getting into before they hit level 50.
So far to level 33 shaman has been a blast to play, an I have faith that however you decide to change the class, it will remain that way!
Cheers,
Aruk/Terau
[This message has been edited by Arenor (edited 06-15-2001).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<B>Hello Uthgar,
Luz just told me there was a thread about shamans being downgraded, so I though I'd come check it out.
[QUOTE]
Shaman spirits still tank sufficiently well that a shaman can do solo exp all the way up to at least the high 30s, and I suspect even the mid 40s.
[B]
Hmmm, I guess seeing this I have to ask, do you want it to be impossible for shamans to solo? If that's the case, remove the pets. If not, I think they were sufficiently weakened already. I'd rather not have a pet than one that's so weak it's not worth the trouble to summon.
Shaman stun spells accumulate too much stun on the mob.
No argument on stun spells, they are extremely powerful, especially against caster mobs and on those occasions I can't get a blind off on a basher/tripper mob. Fixing the max duration will bring it down to what I thought it would be useful for in the first place, disrupting the casting of unbashable mobs.
Hex has simply too strong of an effect for a single spell.
Hmmm, I don't know about this one. If all I ever did was group with a couple tanks a cleric and an enchanter, I'd probably agree with you more strongly. As I usually stick to a 2-4 person group, this spell takes up a stone/heal/ray slot, so I couldn't even start using it until level 31 or my tank simply wouldn't last long enough. It's a really cool spell, maybe even a defining spell for shamans, if it wasn't, I'd never give it up for a stone/heal. If you look at the large group picture though, that's 3 different "lines" of spells (gheal, stun, and Hex) that are extremely useful in harsh situations, say fighting unbashable area-casting mobs with high magic resistance. I honestly think this spell is fine, but it should have gone to enchanters. Shamans usually use magic to defend/attack the body, not the mind, so I don't see why they have a spell that reduces magic resistance? Before reading the description of this spell, I was hoping it would be a shaman-specific ray type spell that would mess up a target's hit probabilities, damage, and chance to fumble weapons. I guess changing it to have some physical effects makes more sense, but as a whole I don't find it fits the shaman class very well. So why not take out ray, combine the easier-to-hit aspect of the changed spell with some form of ray and clean up an already overcrowded spell circle a bit?
But, shaman ability to solo in a clockwork fashion (its too easy, I've done it, Necros have to work harder at it and take more risks) is definitely reduced. However, soloing will still be possible, just not quite so straightforward.
Hmmm, never having played a necro, I can't comment on that, but having played warriors and clerics, I can't say that shamans are that much better at mindless soloing. #action {feet} {bash} and before I knew my warrior was level 27, actually in a day less play time than the shaman (stupid low-shaman-hp switch crit deaths!). Same thing for the cleric I played last wipe, flame, heal, flame, heal, get out and pray, repeat. The one area where shaman have the big advantage is that their pets can recover from the fight while they pray, effectively doubling the shaman's recovery rate. That, however, is part and parcel of having a pet class in the game. As long as your pets are actually useful, it's like having a friend who's willing to flee out and give you all the kill xp, and it's hard to beat that kind of xp gain. I think you should take a firmer stand on whether or not you want pets in the game now that the focus is on PC tanks. Either embrace them and make a commitment to pet users (including soloing casters) that they aren't going to find themselves suddenly with a class they will no longer enjoy playing, or remove them entirely so people know what they are getting into before they hit level 50.
So far to level 33 shaman has been a blast to play, an I have faith that however you decide to change the class, it will remain that way!
Cheers,
Aruk/Terau
[This message has been edited by Arenor (edited 06-15-2001).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
-
Galok Icewolf
- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Well since I was a high level shaman last wipe, and alpha tested shamans, I should say that the damage shamans do is huge. Needless to say, during alpha tests shamans were 3rd to lichs/invokers and druids following behind closely, with no other class, even warriors getting 1/2 as much damage. I lobbied to take some of there damage spells away, or get downgraded. They still do a ton of damage, and if anything are still 3x better then they were last wipe.
Think about it this way. Shamans heal/vit, stone, and nuke now. If things werent downgraded there would be real balance issues and there would be a huge abundancy of shamans. (e.g. like last wipe when invokers were getting 100% of damage exp)
The Imms know what they are doing, and when they see a problem they will fix it but they have a basket of stuff that needs to be done that gets more and more full everyday.
Think about it this way. Shamans heal/vit, stone, and nuke now. If things werent downgraded there would be real balance issues and there would be a huge abundancy of shamans. (e.g. like last wipe when invokers were getting 100% of damage exp)
The Imms know what they are doing, and when they see a problem they will fix it but they have a basket of stuff that needs to be done that gets more and more full everyday.
I think the rest of the player base would appreciate it if the two above COMBATANTS didnt post on this topic again. it's unclear what their points were or whether either of them have any shaman experience.
i enjoy reading comments and threads on classes i dont play, but i wont comment on a class that i've not gotten to 40, and neither should anyone else!
i enjoy reading comments and threads on classes i dont play, but i wont comment on a class that i've not gotten to 40, and neither should anyone else!
Galok think of it this way, shamans heal, vit, stone, and nuke, but as a rule, there is no way that shaman can do any two of those at the same time.
1. If you're healing, you do a 100 pt heal. maybe less maybe more, but 100 is a good average. With the possibility of this being a 5* spell are you going to have enough time to cast this to realistically save anyone when you're casting lets say spiritwrack which can have 5*'s also or even puppet which has 4*'s.
2. If you're stoning, your stones don't last long by any means against a high level mob unless you pc tank is within 4-5 levels of the mob. Otherwise that stone goes in 4 rounds. Are you as the shaman going to be casting stones when you can get 4*'s on it and the mob goes through your stones really fast? No, you're just going to sit tight and glance at your tank to make sure he stays stoned.
3. vits, yeah vits are nice for shamans because it's on another circle and I don't mind sharing a one or two slots from an area offensive. However this is more to help the cleric than anything else. I wouldn't mind it at all if the cleric wanted to take on all the duties of vits.
4. nukes, I agree with your damage assessment however, I have yet to see a lich and from past experience, liches were doing a lot more damage than necros. From more recent testing, damage power breaks down to, Invokers, (Liches), Necro, Shaman. I don't play a good race so I don't know where druids fall.
So what it comes down to is this. A shaman CAN be a replacement for any one of those classes which it infringes upon however they can't realistically do all of them. Taking along just one shaman to do stones heals and nukes is not possible. Thus the group would still need to take one enchanter, one cleric, one invoker. Would the group want to take along one shaman to replace the enchanter? Maybe but the group would become crippled because enchanters also enhance the group in ways a shaman cannot. Would the group replace the cleric with a shaman? Not a chance in hell would this happen unless they had no choice for a high level zone. Full Heal is way to necessary. Would the group replace an invoker with a shaman? Well this could be argued but if you really wanted fast damage you would get a necro or an invoker. With two wraiths casting damage offensives I'm inclined to believe that they would equal an invoker's damage at least on a single target. So what exactly would be a shamans role in a group? Backup, however with the addition of hex as it is now, they are very useful as it increases overall offensive damage that other players can deal, including clerics. They also improve the chances that other status affecting spells hit, such as ray, fumble, blinds etc. As groups play now, Hex has become one of the defining spells that a shaman has just because it is overall so useful in a group situation. Soloing this doesn't mean all that much, so a shaman can get a blind in easier. This helps but that doesn't mean all that much, how many people have paid attention to mob ai before. If you had you would know that there's a certain "click" where the mob will stop switching regardless of whether they are blind or not. I've played a conjurer before, I've had elementals for pets and conjurers didn't have blind, I still dealt with the mob switching and was still able to kill mobs regardless. As for hex increasing shaman offensives, this is laughable, yes it does increase their offensive power however, it's a really small increase in damage. Effectively what this means is on average I will cast 5 fewer spells than without hex. As a player going after experience, I would NOT fight any mob in where I knew I would have to make sure all my spells hit in order to kill the mob. This would be futile and ultimately my pet would most likely get the kill anyway.
1. If you're healing, you do a 100 pt heal. maybe less maybe more, but 100 is a good average. With the possibility of this being a 5* spell are you going to have enough time to cast this to realistically save anyone when you're casting lets say spiritwrack which can have 5*'s also or even puppet which has 4*'s.
2. If you're stoning, your stones don't last long by any means against a high level mob unless you pc tank is within 4-5 levels of the mob. Otherwise that stone goes in 4 rounds. Are you as the shaman going to be casting stones when you can get 4*'s on it and the mob goes through your stones really fast? No, you're just going to sit tight and glance at your tank to make sure he stays stoned.
3. vits, yeah vits are nice for shamans because it's on another circle and I don't mind sharing a one or two slots from an area offensive. However this is more to help the cleric than anything else. I wouldn't mind it at all if the cleric wanted to take on all the duties of vits.
4. nukes, I agree with your damage assessment however, I have yet to see a lich and from past experience, liches were doing a lot more damage than necros. From more recent testing, damage power breaks down to, Invokers, (Liches), Necro, Shaman. I don't play a good race so I don't know where druids fall.
So what it comes down to is this. A shaman CAN be a replacement for any one of those classes which it infringes upon however they can't realistically do all of them. Taking along just one shaman to do stones heals and nukes is not possible. Thus the group would still need to take one enchanter, one cleric, one invoker. Would the group want to take along one shaman to replace the enchanter? Maybe but the group would become crippled because enchanters also enhance the group in ways a shaman cannot. Would the group replace the cleric with a shaman? Not a chance in hell would this happen unless they had no choice for a high level zone. Full Heal is way to necessary. Would the group replace an invoker with a shaman? Well this could be argued but if you really wanted fast damage you would get a necro or an invoker. With two wraiths casting damage offensives I'm inclined to believe that they would equal an invoker's damage at least on a single target. So what exactly would be a shamans role in a group? Backup, however with the addition of hex as it is now, they are very useful as it increases overall offensive damage that other players can deal, including clerics. They also improve the chances that other status affecting spells hit, such as ray, fumble, blinds etc. As groups play now, Hex has become one of the defining spells that a shaman has just because it is overall so useful in a group situation. Soloing this doesn't mean all that much, so a shaman can get a blind in easier. This helps but that doesn't mean all that much, how many people have paid attention to mob ai before. If you had you would know that there's a certain "click" where the mob will stop switching regardless of whether they are blind or not. I've played a conjurer before, I've had elementals for pets and conjurers didn't have blind, I still dealt with the mob switching and was still able to kill mobs regardless. As for hex increasing shaman offensives, this is laughable, yes it does increase their offensive power however, it's a really small increase in damage. Effectively what this means is on average I will cast 5 fewer spells than without hex. As a player going after experience, I would NOT fight any mob in where I knew I would have to make sure all my spells hit in order to kill the mob. This would be futile and ultimately my pet would most likely get the kill anyway.
-
Nekler BlazingWolf
- Sojourner
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 6:01 am
- Contact:
Ok, I just have to add my worries and suggestions in here. As a shaman, the last thing I want to see is my spirit downgraded. When wraith form mobs had the bug fixed, I seen a big diffrence then, and I know that was needed. Without blind, spirits get hit pretty darn hard. As for blind hitting nearly all the time, I think not. It does it a lot, but there have been times I've casted it on the same mob at least 8 times and still not landed one. Most times it takes 2-3 casts, and by that time, without stone skin, the spirit is already at few wounds. If you're fighting a mob that has blind fightning, blind doesn't do a whole lot anyway. Hex I can see as being a bit too powerful from what Uthgar said, but not having it myself, I can't say how it effects spells and such. If you want to downgrade spirits, how about first fixing the bug with summon totem so we can actually notch it outside the guild, then make it a bit easier on us by making it harder to fail all attempts. If making it harder to fail attempts doesn't sound good, then how about giving us a few more tries per week? It sucks having to wait 2, almost 3 hours to get summon tries back so you might actually be a use to a group at low levels. Groups might actually be better off with a necro, after all they can make new pets when ever they want as long as there is a corpse, can heal their own undead, use smaller undead to kill a larger mob to get a bigger undead follower, and can even get 2 of them. Last I looked, shaman and necros both fell into the solo and niche class of characters, I had no problem with that last wipe. I enjoyed being one of the few 40+ shaman (visable ones anyway). Might actually say I took pride in my work. Shaman now have a few new spells, even tho some appear to have the same strength as the old ones, and people start complaining that they are too powerful with a spirit. Well, its a solo class, get over it. I know some of the other people who play a shaman and group a lot, good for them. I don't group much. When I do, a pc is normally the tank as they generally do tank better then a spirit, as it should be.
I'm sorry that this post turned into more of a rant then a help, but I get upset when people start bashing the one true class I love to play, just as I'm sure you would if someone done it to your class. With that said, I'll summorize my points, hehe.
1. Don't downgrade spirits unless you give us more summon tries per week or something. As it is now, I've failed all 3 summon tries at least 4 times. My summon totem skill is poor (38) even tho I summon totems every time I am online and I have a 102 or 103 wisdom.
2. Fixing summon totem so it notches outside of guild would be a nice touch.
3. Before you downgrade spirits, take a look at necros. They can heal thier own undead, have up to two (I think, never played one really) followers if they are high enough level. Can make new undead when they want as long as there is a corpse that is low enough below them to cast on.
4. Don't cut spirits too badly, or else you might as well get rid of the shaman class and give barbarians the invoker class, not like we arn't a multi-classed mage/cleric anyway.
5. As for hex, the change to that sounds great. It making for spells doing 30% more damage is out of hand.
Ok, I think I'm done now. Feel free to flame and tell me I have never played the class and have no idea what I'm talking about, hehe.
I'm sorry that this post turned into more of a rant then a help, but I get upset when people start bashing the one true class I love to play, just as I'm sure you would if someone done it to your class. With that said, I'll summorize my points, hehe.
1. Don't downgrade spirits unless you give us more summon tries per week or something. As it is now, I've failed all 3 summon tries at least 4 times. My summon totem skill is poor (38) even tho I summon totems every time I am online and I have a 102 or 103 wisdom.
2. Fixing summon totem so it notches outside of guild would be a nice touch.
3. Before you downgrade spirits, take a look at necros. They can heal thier own undead, have up to two (I think, never played one really) followers if they are high enough level. Can make new undead when they want as long as there is a corpse that is low enough below them to cast on.
4. Don't cut spirits too badly, or else you might as well get rid of the shaman class and give barbarians the invoker class, not like we arn't a multi-classed mage/cleric anyway.
5. As for hex, the change to that sounds great. It making for spells doing 30% more damage is out of hand.
Ok, I think I'm done now. Feel free to flame and tell me I have never played the class and have no idea what I'm talking about, hehe.
Reading this thread just pisses me off to no end
If you are going to dg shaman pets, then 10 level them but leave the dodge and every other skill alone.
The best class on the game imho is the Shaman to play because of the uniqueness of the class... no, it is not and invoker, no, it is not a cleric. Its just fun to play (or soon to be was fun to play). Take away or DG the class any further (remember the HP thread) and you have a good aligned necro who cannot raise dead.
OH! Btw, Druids are getting WAY too much power from nature, Paladins WAY too much exp from 2h and evil kills, yadda…
See how stupid this thread becomes... stop slinging it at the class, or just roll a shaman, but get over it.
Further, with group size restriction, firepower becomes essential. I seriously doubt a spirit will have any useful qualities for groups of 46+ level players anyway, so let the children play as it were.
Tay
[This message has been edited by Tayros (edited 06-15-2001).]
If you are going to dg shaman pets, then 10 level them but leave the dodge and every other skill alone.
The best class on the game imho is the Shaman to play because of the uniqueness of the class... no, it is not and invoker, no, it is not a cleric. Its just fun to play (or soon to be was fun to play). Take away or DG the class any further (remember the HP thread) and you have a good aligned necro who cannot raise dead.
OH! Btw, Druids are getting WAY too much power from nature, Paladins WAY too much exp from 2h and evil kills, yadda…
See how stupid this thread becomes... stop slinging it at the class, or just roll a shaman, but get over it.
Further, with group size restriction, firepower becomes essential. I seriously doubt a spirit will have any useful qualities for groups of 46+ level players anyway, so let the children play as it were.
Tay
[This message has been edited by Tayros (edited 06-15-2001).]
Uthgar I invite you to snoop a high level group of evils a few times before you do any changes with the class. Don't change the class based upon what you think should happen at high levels but instead look at what happens at high levels. If you're on, look for me, I play a couple of other alternates other than rivi, udun egaz and aku are the ones I mostly play nowadays.
I think if you are going to downgrade shaman you need to look at necros too. They have better pets, better offense, and black mantle is wickedly powerful and makes them invaluable in groups now. Of course this is just my opinion from watching them, and i could be sadly mistaken but thats how it seems to me.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
I think if you are going to downgrade shaman you need to look at necros too. They have better pets, better offense, and black mantle is wickedly powerful and makes them invaluable in groups now. Of course this is just my opinion from watching them, and i could be sadly mistaken but thats how it seems to me.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would say that's entirely accurate. Necros have better pets (at least for damage dealing capability), better offense, and blackmantle is really nice for groups.
However, when you go to do Jot, Cave City, Brass, the Planes, Tia, etc, etc, etc, group heal is going to be invaluable... this isn't theoretical... this is how it's been used for 2 previous wipes in rooms that area damage cannot be avoided.
This also happens to be where virtually all of the high-end equipment is in the game.
I think if you are going to downgrade shaman you need to look at necros too. They have better pets, better offense, and black mantle is wickedly powerful and makes them invaluable in groups now. Of course this is just my opinion from watching them, and i could be sadly mistaken but thats how it seems to me.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would say that's entirely accurate. Necros have better pets (at least for damage dealing capability), better offense, and blackmantle is really nice for groups.
However, when you go to do Jot, Cave City, Brass, the Planes, Tia, etc, etc, etc, group heal is going to be invaluable... this isn't theoretical... this is how it's been used for 2 previous wipes in rooms that area damage cannot be avoided.
This also happens to be where virtually all of the high-end equipment is in the game.
u guys are insane. are you guys trying to make it harder to zone? i would luv for each class to be as powerful as possible, cuz it mean we can do more zone w/ less time/people. i know there has to be balance but there's alway going to be a powerful class. i remember days of old, monk was stronger and then druid. the shift has just changed a little so what. these powerful friends help u stay alive in zones. from what i heard the imms did w/ the zones and all the downgrades, it got me a little scared. but i guess it's good ooc entertain seeing god's report all these spank.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
I think if you are going to downgrade shaman you need to look at necros too. They have better pets, better offense, and black mantle is wickedly powerful and makes them invaluable in groups now. Of course this is just my opinion from watching them, and i could be sadly mistaken but thats how it seems to me.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Group heal is essential in groups. Hex is essential to even make Blackmantle hit with any kind of consistency.. I fail it more than 70% of the time without hex. When people tell me to use blackmantle, I tell them to get me a shaman, heh.
As for who mentioned us being able to heal our undead, type 'help heal'. Shamans can do that too, as well as heal themselves. I don't have stone, I can't heal myself, and I can't prevent switches with blind or stun. That alone is enough to make me wary of soloing anything.
Pets in groups are more often an annoyance than anything else. I use them for haste, wither, ray of enfeeb. Letting them deal damage just takes exp away from others, and any area that we're not doing for exp (like zoning) oftentimes will not have a single corpse of appropriate level to animate, kill the pets consistently and quite often, and generally make it not worth it to have them along.
I was no longer able to solo levels after I got to level 38. Others might be able to, with persistence.. I had 14 days playing time at level 38, of virtually constant exp on things 5+ levels higher than me.
We have better pets? You've never seen a ghoul try to tank. True, they can wear eq, but that eq is gone in a crash/reboot, but otherwise their AC sucks horribly. Wraith's die insanely fast if they try to tank anything above 40th level. I have always preferred a small group to solo'ing. I have never used my pets to deal damage in a group setting.
Summary: just because shamans are being downgraded, doesn't mean you have to take it out on the necromancer. Anyone that wants statistical or experiential information on my abilities, feel free to ask, I'll always reply (as long as you're not in daylight).
-Todrael
I think if you are going to downgrade shaman you need to look at necros too. They have better pets, better offense, and black mantle is wickedly powerful and makes them invaluable in groups now. Of course this is just my opinion from watching them, and i could be sadly mistaken but thats how it seems to me.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Group heal is essential in groups. Hex is essential to even make Blackmantle hit with any kind of consistency.. I fail it more than 70% of the time without hex. When people tell me to use blackmantle, I tell them to get me a shaman, heh.
As for who mentioned us being able to heal our undead, type 'help heal'. Shamans can do that too, as well as heal themselves. I don't have stone, I can't heal myself, and I can't prevent switches with blind or stun. That alone is enough to make me wary of soloing anything.
Pets in groups are more often an annoyance than anything else. I use them for haste, wither, ray of enfeeb. Letting them deal damage just takes exp away from others, and any area that we're not doing for exp (like zoning) oftentimes will not have a single corpse of appropriate level to animate, kill the pets consistently and quite often, and generally make it not worth it to have them along.
I was no longer able to solo levels after I got to level 38. Others might be able to, with persistence.. I had 14 days playing time at level 38, of virtually constant exp on things 5+ levels higher than me.
We have better pets? You've never seen a ghoul try to tank. True, they can wear eq, but that eq is gone in a crash/reboot, but otherwise their AC sucks horribly. Wraith's die insanely fast if they try to tank anything above 40th level. I have always preferred a small group to solo'ing. I have never used my pets to deal damage in a group setting.
Summary: just because shamans are being downgraded, doesn't mean you have to take it out on the necromancer. Anyone that wants statistical or experiential information on my abilities, feel free to ask, I'll always reply (as long as you're not in daylight).
-Todrael
Todrael,
I wasnt meaning to attack necros, I was saying that I don't see shaman as being any more powerful than necros. I have been replaced as a tank in many groups by ghouls, and vampires are an upgrade from that, and you can have one pet that will heal another pet. Shaman have a spirit that granted is an excellent tank but also has the disadvantage of being allowoed to be summoned a limited amount of times per week. A necro can create undead untill the corpses run out. Necros seem to have recieved a significant upgrade in damage dealing spells, and a new pet and have only lost the ability for their wraiths to cast a few spells (this is what i have seen could be incorrect on this). I am not trying to attack necros but I dont see why shaman would be singled out and i really dont see the logic behind downgrading their pets any further.
I wasnt meaning to attack necros, I was saying that I don't see shaman as being any more powerful than necros. I have been replaced as a tank in many groups by ghouls, and vampires are an upgrade from that, and you can have one pet that will heal another pet. Shaman have a spirit that granted is an excellent tank but also has the disadvantage of being allowoed to be summoned a limited amount of times per week. A necro can create undead untill the corpses run out. Necros seem to have recieved a significant upgrade in damage dealing spells, and a new pet and have only lost the ability for their wraiths to cast a few spells (this is what i have seen could be incorrect on this). I am not trying to attack necros but I dont see why shaman would be singled out and i really dont see the logic behind downgrading their pets any further.
1) vampires were removed.
2) wraiths lost stone skin, that's more than a little downgrade.
3) wraiths will assist and chain cast damage, making it virtually impossible to have them heal.
4) you've been replaced by ghouls? then there must have been at least 2 necromancers in the group, and no clerics, because that's the only situation I can think of where that would be worth it.
The only thing I can see as being an issue with necromancer pets is the constant vamp touch.
What's the difference between shaman and necromancer, when it comes to such things, you ask? Necromancer is a pet class. Read our help file. It says we 'rely' on our undead. It's the whole theme and power of the class.. without them, or with them downgraded to uselessness, we are just smaller invokers with blackmantle. Without a spirit pet, shamans are still so much more, and still wholly unique.
-Todrael
2) wraiths lost stone skin, that's more than a little downgrade.
3) wraiths will assist and chain cast damage, making it virtually impossible to have them heal.
4) you've been replaced by ghouls? then there must have been at least 2 necromancers in the group, and no clerics, because that's the only situation I can think of where that would be worth it.
The only thing I can see as being an issue with necromancer pets is the constant vamp touch.
What's the difference between shaman and necromancer, when it comes to such things, you ask? Necromancer is a pet class. Read our help file. It says we 'rely' on our undead. It's the whole theme and power of the class.. without them, or with them downgraded to uselessness, we are just smaller invokers with blackmantle. Without a spirit pet, shamans are still so much more, and still wholly unique.
-Todrael
I find this thread to be a bunds of bullshit. If shaman/necro or whatever is that powerful. Why is a the first level 50 player in game is a PALADIN? Dont give me excuses. I'm pretty sure his playtime isn't among the top 10 or even 20. I'm pretty sure everyone play as much as they can to be the first L50 in game. Thank you, drive thrus. Now onto our next BS post.
Two things...
1) Please accord a little more respect to Coders who are, I might add, working very hard for no pay so that you might enjoy a game. Belligerent posts will ALWAYS be ignored, so you are wasting your time anyways.
2) Calling this a 'downgrade' is very misleading. Uthgar's plans are simply an adjustment to the upgrades accorded to the Shaman class, which you are all helping to playtest. This is not a big deal - shamans rock, and they will continue to rock. Shall we compare to last wipe?
That said, thank you for the constructive criticism, and keep it coming.
------------------
<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
1) Please accord a little more respect to Coders who are, I might add, working very hard for no pay so that you might enjoy a game. Belligerent posts will ALWAYS be ignored, so you are wasting your time anyways.
2) Calling this a 'downgrade' is very misleading. Uthgar's plans are simply an adjustment to the upgrades accorded to the Shaman class, which you are all helping to playtest. This is not a big deal - shamans rock, and they will continue to rock. Shall we compare to last wipe?
That said, thank you for the constructive criticism, and keep it coming.
------------------
<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
Everything is sayed about shamans, and they need a few tweaks imhu. The combo of heal/stone/vit & pet & offensive gives them everything a group needs. And replace both the enchanter and cleric in a group often atm.
Still in a big zone I only would want a shaman to stone the casters (for switches & reposite) gheal, and the utility-offensive they got (stun, hex, blind).
And never replace the cleric or enchanter in a big zone. They'r vit & stones is much better, they'r heals and utility spells rock!
silvea
Still in a big zone I only would want a shaman to stone the casters (for switches & reposite) gheal, and the utility-offensive they got (stun, hex, blind).
And never replace the cleric or enchanter in a big zone. They'r vit & stones is much better, they'r heals and utility spells rock!
silvea
Hey Rivi:
< 549h/867H 142v/142V T: Cherzra TC: few wounds E: crossbreed EC: few scratches>
Rivi completes her spell...
Rivi utters the words, 'ofajs pzar'
Rivi heals Icenacir.
Rivi heals Zrax.
Rivi heals Ezzallixxell.
Rivi heals Rivi.
Rivi heals Jaznolg.
Rivi heals Krolb.
Rivi heals Gromsharulaz.
Rivi heals Rshugg.
Rivi heals Moctar.
A warm feeling fills your body.
Rivi heals Jegzed.
Rivi heals Blung.
Rivi heals Gyrx.
How many of those are warriors or rogues? (counting Cherzra himself)
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 06-17-2001).]
< 549h/867H 142v/142V T: Cherzra TC: few wounds E: crossbreed EC: few scratches>
Rivi completes her spell...
Rivi utters the words, 'ofajs pzar'
Rivi heals Icenacir.
Rivi heals Zrax.
Rivi heals Ezzallixxell.
Rivi heals Rivi.
Rivi heals Jaznolg.
Rivi heals Krolb.
Rivi heals Gromsharulaz.
Rivi heals Rshugg.
Rivi heals Moctar.
A warm feeling fills your body.
Rivi heals Jegzed.
Rivi heals Blung.
Rivi heals Gyrx.
How many of those are warriors or rogues? (counting Cherzra himself)
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 06-17-2001).]
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