Proposal for Ranger Upgrades

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Proposal for Ranger Upgrades

Postby Guest » Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:10 pm

REVISED BASED ON FEEDBACK - REREAD

This is a proposal I put before the staff for review. Since there seems to be alot of dejection from our Rangers, I thought I would post it for your review as well.


After looking over the fighter classes pretty carefully, its clear that
Rangers are lagging behind the classes in ability now. My desire is to see
two divisions within the fighter classes, one being the standard Tanking
class of warriors/pals/aps and the like, and the other being a more damage
focused class for rangers and rogues. Not going so far as monk-like damage,
but giving the rogues and rangers the ability to deal excellent damage will
ensure their place in groups, give them an edge. The tanks already have
their dedicated spot, and will always be a staple class of any group. If
Rogues and Rangers do equal amounts of good damage in battle, players will
have some variety in the kind of fighter they play and people wont get left
behind. After all the testing and turning of knobs this week, I think that
Rogues, Warriors, Paladins, and APs have reached a good balance point with
regards to melee combat, Rogues are extremely useful and very deadly - a job
well done. The knob tweaking has high level warriors hitting at 85%, exactly
what we wanted. However a number of problems exist that I propose to solve
below:


Problem: Rangers are much less significant than Rogues in damage output,
and suffer some key penalties. Rogues can Trip (bash) mobs while still
dual-wielding in combat, whereas Rangers must relinquish a weapon and hold a
shield in order to bash, reducing the damage they can do and making Rogues
better bashers overall as they do more damage at the same time. Rangers do
less damage compared to Rogue skills, like backstab, vital hit, poison,
circle, and the others. Rogues also get all sorts of awesome skills, they
are a great class now and I think D2 hit it right on the mark.

Proposed Solution: We upgrade Rangers to be equal to rogues in damage output. Our
idea is to do this by making them Masters of archery. The missile system
code is very elaborate, and I would love to see it get fully used on S3. Its
not simlpe to use, you can aggro the wrong mobs if your not careful, and
allows for all sorts of interesting scenarios. The damage upgrades on S2 to
archery went too far and were downgraded, but here are some ideas on how I
would like to improve the class (many of these suggestions came from a group
of ranger mortals via Waelos, its in large part their recommendation and I
think they did a great job of proposing a balanced Ranger):

A) We increase damage done by arrows using a control knob and stat tracking, until we reach a point that Rangers and Rogues are doing equal damage. It will most definitely be an upgrade to damage, and will be adjustable during alpha testing the same way we tweaked Warrior thac0 to a fine edge. Archery Thac0 and Damage will both be knobbed and tracked.

B) Reduce Rogue range weapon ability _slightly_. Because rogues only use throwing
for luring mobs and playing, and to ensure the Ranger is the recognized
defacto range specialist, we reduce the number of attacks from 4 to 3. I asked several Rogues how often they used Thrown and they all said
only really to lure, their new melee skills are too superior to give up.
Thus this reduction wont hurt their class, but will help the rangers be
giving them a solid "niche"

C) Right now, if a mob has missile shield, archery is useless. We would
convert the Missile Shield spell from a "100% blocking all arrows" defense
to a Stone-Skin/Scales based spell, that absorbes X amount of damage and
then falls, revealing the target fully to the Rangers fire, but offering
high level mobs a re-castable defense (assuming they aren't on the ground from bashing and tripping Image

D) Limit distance shots to one per round, and reduce the damage. Ranged
shots are only good for luring, and reducing the damage and number they can
fire into adjoining rooms to 1 will greatly prevent players from using
Archery to twink mobs.

E) Re-adjust missile snare so that the archer's skill plays into the calculation. The better the archer is at archery, the less teh chance the enemy can snag your arrows.

F) A new Ranger spell called, "Natures Fury", which allows the ranger to
either heat or chill their arrowheads by hundreds of degrees just before
they fire. They wouldn't be "on-fire", but rather Extremely hot or cold
(like having someone stab you with a knife whose blade was heated to 500
degrees - it would BURN). This would modify damage done to the mob, in most
cases causing alot more. If he fires Hot arrows into a daemon or Cold arrows into
an Ice elemental, it'll laugh and thank the Ranger. But otherwise it would
be a nice way to extend . We can tweak the effect to equalize them to Rogue damage.

G) Extend pass without trace, its current 40 seconds in duration, which
is very weak, almost useless. Extention to 120 seconds and study the effect
is our suggestion.

H) Transport Via plants should have a target room set by the Ranger
within a zone (it wont work outside a zone). The Ranger would set the home
location (have to be plants present) when in that room and the spell cast,
and at some later point if they need to get out quick from a fight, trigger
the spell and pop out at the designation spot. It wont work if the ranger
leaves the zone.

I) Addition of proc arrows to the game. This was always intended, the support to do so exists, it just hasn't been done. As part of the upgrade I'll add a number of proced arrow types around the game, to spice things up.

J) Directed Shot Option. If a room is big enough to allow it, you'll be able to take position for melee firing on a selected side of the room, meaning your Arrows will fly towards the mob in a given direction. This would allow the archer to prevent alot of stray arrow from aggro-ing mobs, but still present the possibility that Some may go astray in other directions - hense keeping some risk factor. Like Voker spell feedback and all the other classes, there has to be a negative to it, something that makes it a challenge

K) Allow a chance to proc on the second weapon Held. If after all this, the Ranger really REALLY wants to use melee weapons all the time, I will tie the ability for the second weapon to proc to the rangers skill at dual-wield. The higher the skill, the more the second weapon will proc.

Thats it for my Revised proposal. I think the changes would make the Ranger
a deadly archer, a powerful damage class, and equal to the Rogue in
importance. Their spells are good now, but mostly for soloing and not
group-based combat. As you can see, the above spells/skills would be
targetted especially for group combat, like Rogues have, and some nice
utilitarian spells to boot. It would knock out the twink potential by
reducing ranged shots, and make them alot more viable without making them
some kind of super-class.

What do you guys think Now?

Kris




[This message has been edited by Miax (edited 04-10-2001).]
Lilareow
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Postby Lilareow » Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:24 pm

Those are some great ideas, but the stray shots from archery are still too evil... In higher level/harder zones like jot, you just couldnt have yet another huge mob joining the fray. My point is, at times the stray arrows can make a ranger useless for exp runs.

I like the change on teleport via plant. IMHO it was completely useless for such a high circle spell, like a teleport for the woods only, and it will give the ranger class some needed mobility in the forest (in addition to a quick way out if things get messy). I do like a lot of the nature-dependent spells, but in some cases it was taken to the point of making the spell near-useless.


Also, instead of two arrows at a time, why not just up the fire rate to a possible 4? Easier to code, easier to imp, and easier to use overall. Even changing the code to max 2 attacks, possible 2 arrows per attack would be better than 2 different 'modes' in my opinion.

Oh yes, and one other thing... TRAP. "Trap: Not Yet Implimeneted" has been a running gag on soj since soj1 beta Image Im hoping this will actually go in someday.

Yet another edit, The lag time on collect (however realistic) could get rangers left behind in larger groups... bad thing in some zones.

-Lilareow, hardcore ranger Image

[This message has been edited by Lilareow (edited 04-10-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Lilareow (edited 04-10-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Lilareow (edited 04-10-2001).]
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:36 pm

Hmmm.. What do the other Hardcore rangers think about this?
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Postby Calinth » Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:55 pm

I like the proposed changes, though I'm a little doubtful as the usefulness of the transport via plants spell. My main concern though is that there are places where archery can be rather dangerous to use, I know I've killed my share of groups with stray arrows. I didn't notice anything that would put us anywhere near being on par with rogues in normal melee combat. I know we can't have it all and be the top hitters in both melee and ranged, but something that could let us keep up with vital strike, trip, poisons, circle, and any other melee damage enhancements that rogues get would be nice.

Another concern that might have already been addressed, is that missile snare works entirely too well, or at least used to. Even the thieves/smugglers(I don't remember which) in the tunnel under Wd used to snare 2 or 3 times a round fairly regularly, I haven't found any snaring mobs on Em, so I can't say for sure that it is still true.

That's all for now, I'm sure I'll pipe up again later.

Calinth
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Postby belleshel » Tue Apr 10, 2001 2:07 pm

I was actually hoping for more of a melee type upgrade, but making archery more zone friendly is going to be fun too.
Okay down to the details:

A) Dual-shot: Nice addition, but not sure the point of this, why not just have the damage output of archery ramp up as your skills/level ramp up. Or for that matter add a 'CH' chance to archery, a shot to the eye would do massive damage. But this works as well.

B) Agreed, I fear someone shooting arrows at me, a hell of a lot more than someone throwing darts/daggers Image

C) Less than 100% works, also could be neat to have a conjurers spell called 'arrow of dispelling' or something along those lines. When cast it creates an arrow (or several) that last for a fairly short duration, but when fired at a mob will dispel the missile shield, or drop its effectiveness (big fan of class interaction for better results Image.

D) Makes luring easier, works for me (hated carrying around that 1 quiver with 1 arrow for lures Image

E) Should this really be a spell? Rangers should be smart about where they setup to fire a bow from, and move to stay out of combat, this could easily be just tweaked in the mob_ai, (if (ranger_fire_mode) switch_to_chance -= 25%), change the message to 'the monster overlooks you and switches to X) and not need another spell coded, memmed, casted Image...just a thought

F) Great idea, would have suggested this, make this a fairly high level spell, but add a similar spell to conjurers at lower levels (ice/fire arrows)...class interaction for better results Image Lyt fill my quiver! *duck*

G) Cool

H) Much better then it is now!

I like the changes, makes us more range based, but that could be a lot of fun. Hopefully that bow quest is finished this time around, would really make things intresting Image.
Belleshel

Windsong vs. dual-shot...Windsong vs. dual-shot..hmmm Image
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 10, 2001 2:33 pm

Heh... just yesterday I got myself killed trying to use my bow in IC... damn quiet guest. *mutter*

I was thinking the same thing as Lilearow when reading about the two arrow thing. I really can't see firing two arrows at one time without sacrificing accuracy... but I could see a "double shot" skill where you fire two arrows in rapid succession. Basically the same effect but with a more realistic description I guess.

However hitting other mobs is still a big problem. There are many places where the bow is great, but just as many where you'll just get yourself killed. One possibility would be directed firing... for instance let's take a room that has oh, let's say Tiamat in it and the only entrance/exit is west. My group runs in and I start firing. Now since I just walked in my arrows wouldn't be going to the west, they would be going to the east, where they would just hit the wall instead of going into another room and aggroing something else. And even in a room with 4 exits I should be able to do something like "fire mob west" So that I would sit on the east side of the room and fire west at the mob so that all my strays would go that way. This would make it so that we could scout around and figure out which direction would be best for our arrows to go in. (Quiet guest is north, so I'll fire south towards the tubby merchant!)

I haven't tried the higher level spells yet... but they sound good. I think it might be a good idea for that chameleon spell to apply when in melee combat as well... possibly even make it so we can cast it on others. 'Vokers would be begging for rangers to avoid getting switched to. Image

I don't think rogues ability should necessarily be reduced. But I do think that a dart should do a lot less damage than an arrow. But I'd also like rangers to be decent in melee combat... Possibly getting trip at a lower skill level than rogues? Lowering the weights and making offhand slashing weapons able to proc would help with that. A rogue can backstab, but I'll proc harm twice... should work out eh?

Also... since we will apparently be more dependant on archery now... how about making some special arrows? Maybe procing ones or something. Like we can quest for a quiver full of 10 lightning arrows, and when they break we would have to quest for them again or something. I know the hot/cold spell helps with that (cool spells btw) but it's always fun to find new gear. Image And I still like my old idea for a quest item that is a quiver of everlasting arrows. That's about it for now... gotta get back to work.

Just remembered another idea. How about if we get a skill or something that can stun a caster out of casting? Since we can't bash and arch... make it work really rarely (like the old assassin instant kill thing probably.) But basically if we hit a mage while he's casting and the skill works make it say we hit him in the hand and ruined his spell!

Sarvis

[This message has been edited by Sarvis (edited 04-10-2001).]
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Postby Corth » Tue Apr 10, 2001 3:07 pm

I like belleshel's idea where a conjurer could create an arrow which when used by a ranger, has a dispel magic effect. I'm sure that the idea could be extended to include other types of magical effects that would increase the usefulness of rangers and conjurers alike.

Corth
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Postby Ruhr » Tue Apr 10, 2001 3:25 pm

Miax,

Wouldn't it be easier to up ranger melee thac0 (so it's on par with rogue thac0), than to implement new spells, and range code, etc?
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 10, 2001 3:26 pm

Here we go!

A) So you're just suggesting 4 shots a round basically? Sure, I'm down with that.

B) Reducing rogue range ability would give rangers the archery niche, indeed.

C) Missile shield should definitely be a stoneskin-like spell. I never realized that it wasn't, because mobs so rarely used it.

D) Anything that will allow us to stop carrying empty quivers around is fine by me. We were also discussing a spell called "Golden Arrow" which would simply ensure that your next shot was 100% accurate. Terrific for luring.

E) I never really felt this was necessary.. a lot of people report that mobs are switching to clerics and enchanters more. I guess if it becomes an issue, then sure.

F) I liked my Nature's Fury spell better *tease*. Sure, anything to give some variety from firing black-shafted elven arrows.

G) Pass without trace duration should definitely be looked at. Uthgar mentioned it can be cast outside and the effects still linger if you go indoors, but the duration is very restricting.

H) I like the transport idea, I've been pushing it for a long time.


I'll definitely miss slashing if all this goes in. We have maybe the longest and most enjoyable weapon quest in the game, and if Rangers are designed to shoot and not slash, there won't be much point in doing it.

I also think it will be necessary to include more variety in bows and arrows around the mud. Like I said above, our options right now are A) Black-shafted elven arrows or B) Nothing. Part of the fun of playing a damage class is assembling exotic weapons and armor Image I'd love to see proc bows, proc arrows, or other ways to make archery more enjoyable. As it was, there were plenty of different types of arrows on the mud, but usually only one loaded per boot (scorpion arrows and sandy arrows spring to mind). Maybe load mobs with quivers full of 10-30 arrows instead of just one.

- Ragorn
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 10, 2001 3:28 pm

One more thing. The bow in BG.. it bothers me. First and foremost because I can't use it even though it's just a stick of wood with a string. Image But also because it's magical (+2+2) yet costs less than the non-magical longbow sold in WD. I think it would be good to make the BG bow a lot more expensive (magical arrows are 100p but a magical bow is only 10p. ) Second... either make it human useable or sell it only on EM. It doesn't make too much sence that elves get second class bows on their own island to me... heh.

And thanks for deciding to add things like directed shot... will make things much easier in the future. Image
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Postby izarek » Tue Apr 10, 2001 3:34 pm

Miax and the crew (including ranger ptesters):

Thanks for looking at the class. I know you're looking at them all, and we all appreciate it. Here are my responses, having played several ranger characters and it being my favorite class:

Archery changes:

Dual shot. Hmm. My first instinct is that this is too much. I dont really see how firing two arrows at a time would work well (unless you're using some strange gnomish device, rofl!....a nice item idea....Gigglebip's ultra spanky bow of twinkiness). If you want to give the capability of four shots per round, here's how I would do it. Right now, we get 1-3 shots per round. I image this depends on skill, but franky...early on we get 3 shots per round fairly frequently. I'd say make it 1-4 shots per round, but differentiate skill levels more. A lowbie ranger should be getting 1-2 shots most of the time, while a high level 3-4. As it is, I never really noticed any significant gain in the number of attacks as I gain levels and skill in archery. (note that I did notice improvements in my accuracy).

Reduce rogue darts. I agree with those rangers who say leave the number of dart attacks alone, but reduce their damage. An arrow from a long bow is gonna sink in way way more than a dart thrown by a halfling (sorry squirts!)

Missile shield. I think the change to a stoneskin type protection is an excellent idea. Just make sure we can actually see the shield go down! :P

Distance shots. Fine with me if its limited. I only use it to lure, myself.

Archery's Chamelion. Hmm. Dunno how necessary it is with the new code making switching go to clerics alot (boy, I pity them). If you think about it, to arch, the ranger would be further away from the target than most of the other ppl in the group. In that way it makes sense. However, I'm seeing mobs switch to clerics and lowbies more often, so this isnt a big concern to me.

Nature's Fury. A good idea, but be careful not to make it too much. Archery already does alot of damage. A related, yet different idea, would be the implementation of a bless-like spell which could make non-magic arrows affect wraiths for a limited time. That I wouldnt mind seeing.

Along the theme of spells and archery...I think a nice change to the spell, 'minor creation' (even if rangers dont get it) would be the creation of crappy bows and arrows. That'd be nice for lowbie rangers or in emergency situations. I'd also like to refer you to my survival skill post in the 'minor changes to ranger spell list' in the feedback section, about mid-way down the thread.

Spells:

Pass w/o trace. I've no comment on this, as I've no experience with it. I'll trust your peeps insticts here.

Transport via plants. I prefer the method you outlined here. Hardly anyone wants to use a random teleport spell. The change sounds good to me.

Melee:

Here's where I think the most improvements can be made. I'd rather see improvements here than in archery. First I'd like to thank the imms for adding in that extra attack thing based on dex. That'll help grey elf rangers (and boy those halflings are fun now!!).

Kick. A basic combat skill which sees little use cuz it rarely ever works. Doesn't seem to do much damage. Seems to me when ya watch agile (read not armored) swordfighters in movies and such, theres always a bit of foot-play...kicking. Rangers should be alot better at this skill. I dont really think that would be overbalancing considering how little dmg it does. I could also see a weak version of trip going in at high levels (meaning rogues much better at it), but I'd be happy just with kick being made useful.

ThacO. Is a rangers ability to hit with a 1h weapon the same as a warriors? If not, it should be. One big reason I use arch in groups more often than melee is cuz I just dont seem to hit much.

Parry. I still think the use of a second weapon should help parry chances.

In general:

I'd like to thank the crew for the nature-based changes made to rangers and druids so far. Really appreciate it!! It feels right, ya know. One thing I'd like to see is the establishment of a thread where we nature types can suggest the changes of rooms/areas to nature flagged. For example, I was in the forest area near the spirit mastiff yesterday and, lo, even tho there were squirrels and wolves running about I couldnt find any food to forage *sniff*.

Hope this is helpful.

Izzy

[This message has been edited by izarek (edited 04-10-2001).]
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Postby Guest » Tue Apr 10, 2001 3:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>Here we go!

A) So you're just suggesting 4 shots a round basically? Sure, I'm down with that.

B) Reducing rogue range ability would give rangers the archery niche, indeed.

C) Missile shield should definitely be a stoneskin-like spell. I never realized that it wasn't, because mobs so rarely used it.

D) Anything that will allow us to stop carrying empty quivers around is fine by me. We were also discussing a spell called "Golden Arrow" which would simply ensure that your next shot was 100% accurate. Terrific for luring.

E) I never really felt this was necessary.. a lot of people report that mobs are switching to clerics and enchanters more. I guess if it becomes an issue, then sure.

F) I liked my Nature's Fury spell better *tease*. Sure, anything to give some variety from firing black-shafted elven arrows.

G) Pass without trace duration should definitely be looked at. Uthgar mentioned it can be cast outside and the effects still linger if you go indoors, but the duration is very restricting.

H) I like the transport idea, I've been pushing it for a long time.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>

I agree that slashing is still an important part of the Rangers life, and shouldn't be removed. While Archery will be their means to doing massive damage, they still need to be very good at using two weapons. Would a chance to proc on the second held weapon would be unbalancing? Honestly?

<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">

I'll definitely miss slashing if all this goes in. We have maybe the longest and most enjoyable weapon quest in the game, and if Rangers are designed to shoot and not slash, there won't be much point in doing it.

I also think it will be necessary to include more variety in bows and arrows around the mud. Like I said above, our options right now are A) Black-shafted elven arrows or B) Nothing. Part of the fun of playing a damage class is assembling exotic weapons and armor Image I'd love to see proc bows, proc arrows, or other ways to make archery more enjoyable. As it was, there were plenty of different types of arrows on the mud, but usually only one loaded per boot (scorpion arrows and sandy arrows spring to mind). Maybe load mobs with quivers full of 10-30 arrows instead of just one.

- Ragorn</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



[This message has been edited by Miax (edited 04-10-2001).]
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Apr 10, 2001 3:42 pm

Ranger changes sounds all nice and fine.

But won't evilrace be screwed if our rogues lose good range weapon skills?

*cough drow hunters/scouts?*

Just so that I can play with the arrows and quivers which load in UD Image

/Jegzed playing devils advocate
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Postby Guest » Tue Apr 10, 2001 3:52 pm

Re-read the top post, I changed it.
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Postby belleshel » Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:00 pm

"I agree that slashing is still an important part of the Rangers life, and shouldn't be removed. While Archery will be their means to doing massive damage, they still need to be very good at using two weapons. Would a chance to proc on the second held weapon would be unbalancing? Honestly?"

Nope, because as greys we can't dual much of anything anymore. Weight was added to most procing weapons near the end of soj2, and we are limited to 5 lbs in our offhand (before max_str). I always liked the idea of 'whirl' or a similar command that would double our attacks for the round, but leave us lagged (tired) for awhile afterwards...that with a procing weapon could be fun Image

Belle

Dualing windsongs! *duck*
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Miax:
<B>

K) Allow a chance to proc on the second weapon Held. If after all this, the Ranger really REALLY wants to use melee weapons all the time, I will tie the ability for the second weapon to proc to the rangers skill at dual-wield. The higher the skill, the more the second weapon will proc.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes... I do really REALLY want to use melee weapons all the time. Image Well... a good portion of the time anyway. I'd lose the respect of my barbarian pals if I never got my hands dirty durin' a good fight. Image

Sarvis
izarek
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Postby izarek » Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:17 pm

Ah yes, the offhand proc thing. Never did make sense. That's definately one that would help (cant believe I left it out above!). Especially good for human rangers *nudge Sarvis*
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Postby Lilareow » Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:20 pm

How about, for the guys who really like their melee rangers, pick one:
Range Specialist
Dual Weapon Specialist...
What do you think?
izarek
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Postby izarek » Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lilareow:
<B>How about, for the guys who really like their melee rangers, pick one:
Range Specialist
Dual Weapon Specialist...
What do you think?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've no objection as long as one can use the other (with less efficiency, of course).

Izzy
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Postby Ginalir » Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:32 pm

I think the idea of specialization is a good one. Maybe at 10th level, the ranger has to make a tough decision. Become a bladesman, or bladeswoman Image, or become an accomplished archer. I think they should excel at either but be relatively mediocre at their non choice. Thats just my thoughts anyhoo.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:35 pm

It would be good if melee were equal to archery. Otherwise people who picked melee would still have to use archery a lot of the time.

'Nother thing. When arching we should be less likely to die from certain mob death procs. For instance this purple worm swallow thing I've heard about. Since the worm would have to slither(?) a good distance to get to us it makes sense that he would pick a closer target. Image (Or is that what the chameleon spell is for?)


Sarvis
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Postby Ginalir » Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:39 pm

So basically Sarvis, you want to have rangers be the best at archery _and_ melee. That sounds a bit in excess. Rogues are and should be the kings of melee damage, rangers should be there too, if they choose, but not have that, and archery, and spells.
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Postby cherzra » Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:39 pm

Why does everyone seem to think rangers are useless in melee? I'm sorry, but you are getting even another attack on top of what you got before (if you are a grey), and more hits = more damage, I won't even bother with the math. Rangers DON'T suck at melee.

Commenf for Rinalir: why do you think rogues are KINGS of melee damage? IMHO, a warrior in FR dishes out MUCH more damage than a rogue, and they were made kings of melee on this mud solely to make them 'belong', since just lockpick and sneak won't give them a place in groups by themselves. It's sad warriors are now nothing but meatshields. Just my opinion of course.

[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 04-10-2001).]
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Postby Guest » Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:42 pm

No, I dont at all agree with making Rangers awesome both at Archery and Melee. Giving the Ranger a second-proc ability will definitely be a nice upgrade to their Melee ability, but we specifically chose to make the Ranger a Master of the bow. We have enough hitter classes already, if you want to live under Melee, play a Warrior, Paladin, Anti, or Rogue. Rangers primary "uber" ability will be Archery. I know Sarvis and many others may not like it, but it will secure their place as a unique class and give them enough damage ability to be very useful to groups.

Sorry, can't cator to all of the people all of the time.

Miax
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Postby belleshel » Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:46 pm

Cher it's not that rangers suck in melee, its that they provided no benefit over taking another warrior in the past (there were exceptions but in general). The warrior can rescue better, bash better, tank better, and in most cases hit just as hard. We will have to see how these new changes play out in helping rangers become serious damage dealers.

Belle
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Postby Ginalir » Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:46 pm

Cherz, I only meant rogues are the melee dudes on here. I agree, in 3E DnD, fighters are amazing. And trust me, I feel your pain about the meatshield thing. I have always played a tank first. I have not been privileged to do higher level ptesting, so I cannot judge what effect -100 AC will have, but basically that is what warriors got this time around.
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Postby izarek » Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:56 pm

Of course they shouldn't be the best in both. That's insane. I think the offhand proc is a nice boost to melee. A boost in kick would be nice too.

Cherzra you're right, rangers don't suck in melee. However, most group leaders want rangers to arch and ask them to do so when they are in melee mode. I suspect this has happened to Sarvis, as well as the rest of us rangers, and that can be disappointing.

Also, I find it interesting that some ppl are saying now that rogues are the kings of melee. They've recieved substantial bonuses that I agree with. I think calling them the best melee is going too far. They're primarily rogues (picking locks, stealing, and backstabbing). The melee additions were to get them into groups and I think its done that.

Izzy
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 10, 2001 5:06 pm

Heh... you know, it's funny. In Baldur's Gate I made a ranger and gave him all the best melee gear, but gave all the bows and archery gear to Imoen the rogue. Image

Sarvis
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 10, 2001 5:07 pm

Miax, here is my proposal for the upgrading of melee damage between Rangers and Rogues. This will help the evil side, as evil Rogues will reap the benefits as well as goodies.

1) When the weapon stats were changed last wipe, many proc weapons were assigned weight 14, which was just heavy enough not to be dualable by rangers or assassins, even with max_str. I propose that these weapons be reconsidered and reweighted, allowing most of the nonproc and some of the proc weapons to be dualed. Staff discretion.. I obviously don't think weapons like Windsong should be dualed.

2) Allow all weapons to proc offhand. Any weapon deemed to have an unbalancing proc should just be kept weight 14. The problem here is that halflings can't primary a weight 14 weapon, so some rogue daggers MAY have to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

3) When reweighting items, leave some of them above weight 5 and weight 9 (I think), so that greys and halfelves can't dual them (respectively). With the addition of the dex hit, combined with the growing necessity for dex and agi, there's no reason to play any race other than grey for rangers. Allowing some of the nice proc weapons to be dualed by humans only would give more of an incentive to play the stronger ranger classes. Sure, Beltashell the grey elf ranger gets 6 hits and procs with her gleaming holy longsword offhand, but Sorevis the human ranger procs his rippling longsword offhand.

By the same token, Nookie the halfling rogue gets his 6 hits, but Shareya the dorfie rogue can proc Fang offhand.

I don't really think the second example was necessary, but it's fun to make up stupid names.

- RagPorn
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Postby belleshel » Tue Apr 10, 2001 5:16 pm

"Cherzra you're right, rangers don't suck in melee. However, most group leaders want rangers to arch and ask them to do so when they are in melee mode. I suspect this has happened to Sarvis, as well as the rest of us rangers, and that can be disappointing."

Your experiences as a ranger were far different then mine. Archery was used in exping primarily, several zones we used it in, but for the most part in zones we rangers went melee. This had a lot to do with stray arrows, rescuing casters, and multiple mobs forcing you into melee.

Wow in agreement with Raghorn again Image
Belle
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Postby Nokie » Tue Apr 10, 2001 5:31 pm

For thrown weapons like darts and daggers:

Shouldn't the damage be decreased but the rate of fire increased, or at least the rate of fire for thrown objects be higher than that of a bow & arrow?

Nokie Quickfingers!
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Postby Treladian » Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:19 pm

Nokie: Even though throwing daggers and darts are smaller than arrows, the rate of fire shouldn't be higher IMO. You need to gauge how far you are from your target to figure out if you need to get closer or further away so that the spin you put on a throwing knife won't cause it to hit handle first or otherwise hit in a bad manner. Most martial artists that study knife combat will never talk at all about throwing a knife in combat. You're just going to be too close in a typical encounter to set up the throw well.

As for darts, I have no idea why they're called tiny black darts. War darts are not tiny. They're pretty damn big, about a foot or more in length I believe. That's why they actually do damage instead of just leaving small wounds that might get infected later =p

But back to the topic of rangers, if our melee ability is going to be somewhat neglected in favor of ranged combat, then things are going to need some serious rebalancing. I haven't seen how things are working at higher levels right now, but from experience using archery was rare in zones during Sojourn 2. As others have said, the chances of strays was WAY too much of a danger to ever use it in any open locations. Even in closed locations where the arrows had no chance of aggroing a mob in another room, melee was still the prefered route. Arrows just didn't hit reliably against Mahdrel or rhemos in vault. Hell, I remember Calinth telling me how a group he was in vault with wound up casting missile shield on THEMSELVES cause he kept missing and hitting his groupmates with strays and it was getting annoying. The midbattle quiver changes were annoying and you could lose a lot of arrows to breakage during a zone. I do like the sound of some of the changes being proposed, but without tweaking to ranged weapons on a more basic level, it's all just pretty icing on a bland cake. Archery's hit rate on big mobs really would need to be looked at carefully. Likewise, it would be nice if there was a chance that a mob hit with a stray missile doesn't go aggro if it can't tell what sent the missile that way. They might be more alert, but it doesn't mean they can tell what just happened.

In any case though, rangers are still going to have to use melee a lot of the time. While I don't care if we don't get lots of neat skills to spruce it up, it still needs to be a reliable source of damage, though that really doesn't require much tweaking since we still do have the 4/5 attacks a round hasted. Yeah, rogues might be able to circle, poison their weapons, and backstab and equal how many attacks we have a round but we're not going to be able to get out of using melee a lot simply because we'll probably need to rescue the casters in some areas where the warriors, paladins, and antis are too busy bashing or shieldpunching. Mages are going to be doing more damage than us after all so they need to be kept alive. Unfortunately, rescue notches really slowly for us (A trip to skeletons that yielded like 4 or 5 notches in it for Gorth gave me 1 or 2. Obviously this is partly due to Gorth, a warrior, succeeding more than me due to a higher skill to begin with, but with the skill notching so slowly and not being able to practice it much at the guild it's a vicious circle.) and the enchanters often don't bother to stone us, not to mention we don't dodge or parry as well as warriors (though we still can do it pretty well), so that often doesn't last too long. Those warrior skills that we're not so good at tend to have to be utilized a lot more than we expect. Making rangers a range dependent class would really require a lot of overhaul, but it's not like we were weaklings in melee before. It would be nice to see kick tweaked though, not just for rangers but also for the other classes that get it. Antis also need something to do when they're not bashing . . .

The spell list could also use a closer look. While I like it in general since it seems more ranger like than the mix of mage and druid spells (holdover from 1st edition D&D I suspect), too many of them are damage spells. More utilitarian or support spells would be nice. Creating small storms or doing things with sticks just for damage doesn't seem like what a ranger would do with their spells. And since we've lost minor creation, a woodcraft skill like Izarek suggested in another thread would really be nice. For a class that's supposed to be a master of wilderness survival, not being able to make a raft seems kinda silly.

Well, that's my two copper for now. I'm sure I'll have more opinions as more comes to light.
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Postby izarek » Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by belleshel:
<B>"Cherzra you're right, rangers don't suck in melee. However, most group leaders want rangers to arch and ask them to do so when they are in melee mode. I suspect this has happened to Sarvis, as well as the rest of us rangers, and that can be disappointing."

Your experiences as a ranger were far different then mine. Archery was used in exping primarily, several zones we used it in, but for the most part in zones we rangers went melee. This had a lot to do with stray arrows, rescuing casters, and multiple mobs forcing you into melee.

Wow in agreement with Raghorn again Image
Belle</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was my experience as well when exping vs zoning. And that does mean we contriubute less to zones than in exp (except for luring). That doesn't mean we suck at melee however. Anyhow, if you read my first post above, I do say that i'd prefer more emphasis on melee upgrades than archery. I think archery is very strong already.

Izzy
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:26 pm

I agree Nookie... I adamantly belive rogues should throw like 5 darts a round, but do very little damage each dart (equaling about how much damage the do now) and that archers should get 2-3 arrow hits a round, but doing significantly more damage.

On a side note, I have not played a ranger, but I like the idea, of rangers being spanky far and above anyone else with range. Like monks there should be some limitations. Mainly that Dragons (not dragon-kin) are pretty much immune to missile fire. I think if there were certain good bow quests completed *coughGNcough* and procing bows/arrows rangers would not have a problem with this.

I personally think it would be cool to see something like this:

Tilandal takes aim and begins frantically firing his Northern Ice longbow!
The air begins to chill as Tilandal's longbow is covered in a layer of ice!Tilandal's shot hits a black griffin warrior's body with full force.
A black griffin warrior is chilled by Tilandal's shot.
< 767h/767H 137p/137P 105v/122V >
<>
Tilandal's shot hits a black griffin warrior's body with monstrous force.
A black griffin warrior is chilled by Tilandal's shot.
Tilandal's shot hits a black griffin warrior's body with incredible force.
A black griffin warrior is chilled by Tilandal's shot.
Tilandal's shot hits a black griffin warrior's body with incredible force.
A black griffin warrior is chilled by Tilandal's shot.
A black griffin warrior staggers from a fearsome drain from the spirit bear!
A black griffin warrior dodges the spirit bear's attack.

< 767h/767H 137p/137P 106v/122V >
<>
A black griffin guard says 'Rumor has it that the Nightfall thief's guild has established a home base somewhere along the roadway.'

< 767h/767H 137p/137P 106v/122V >
<>
Tilandal's shot hits a black griffin warrior's body with incredible force.
A black griffin warrior is chilled by Tilandal's shot.
Tilandal's shot hits a black griffin warrior's body with incredible force.
A black griffin warrior is chilled by Tilandal's shot.
Tilandal's shot just skims a black griffin warrior's body.
A black griffin warrior is chilled by Tilandal's shot.
The spirit bear dodges a black griffin warrior's attack.
A black griffin warrior dodges the spirit bear's attack.
A black griffin warrior gasps from the spirit bear's awesome drain!

< 767h/767H 137p/137P 107v/122V >
<>
Tilandal's shot hits a black griffin warrior's body with godly force.
A black griffin warrior is chilled by Tilandal's shot.
Tilandal's Shot of cold freezes a black griffin warrior, stopping his heart.
a black griffin warrior is dead! R.I.P.
Your blood freezes as you hear the rattling death cry of a black griffin warrior.
The last of the Ice falls from Tilandal's Longbow as it returns to normal.

P.s. this would also add something to rangers being better at archery, cause you could add procs to bows rather then arrows...and we all know, rogues dont use bows :P
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Postby Lilareow » Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:42 pm

What are peoples feelings on mounted archery?
Its not out of the scope of realism in any sense... I think it would be a really neet thing to do, especially the way the rangers are firing, outside the group a ways, it makes perfect sense that they could do it from a horse. (of course, the horse probably couldnt attack the mob while you were shooting arrows at it)
'Lil
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Postby Gorets » Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:46 pm

Got ranger to 18 this alfa yet and have to say that if half of what Miax proposed will go in it will make Rangers so much more enjoyable to play!!!!


p.s. ...whereas Rangers must relinquish a weapon and hold a
shield in order to bash,....

HAHAHAHAHA Image sorry couldn't hold it :P
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:51 pm

Oh yeah... definate thumbs up for Izarek's woodcraft skill idea. Image

And I think that nature skills/spells need to be useable in more places. Especially roads, I find it pretty hard to believe that in all the distance between WD and Neverwinter I can't find a single rabbit for dinner. Image (Actually I pass several on the way, but for some unknown reason I can't catch them!)
The easy way: Make forage work on roads.
The hard way: Make a new flag "forest_road" and put it on all road rooms that have animals in them or describe forests on the sides of the road.

Also tho, I think places like caves should be considered natural surroundings. You could easily find rats and roots if not squirrels and tubers. Hrm... something like this would prolly be good:

Roads: civilized
forest_roads: natural(rabbits/squirrels)
caves: natural (rats/lizards/roots)
mountains: natural (lizards/small fuzzy creatures)
rivers: natural (fish)
city: civilized (buy rations!)
planes: not-civilized, eat things if you wanna get blown up. Image
Desert: natural (lizard/rat/something else)
plains/fields (rabbit/squirrel/tuber/berries)
Woods: natural (any/all)
Tundra: natural (rabbits)

Hrm... that's all the sector types I can think of atm. But a lot of these kinds of places we can't forage in even though there would be food around for us to find.

Sarvis
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Postby Galkar » Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:00 pm

I agree with nokie as well... think about it, you have to pull an arrow from your quiver, nock it, draw, aim, fire. With darts and daggers, you pull it from your belt, aim, and throw. Seems to me you can get off a lot more daggers and darts than arrows. More darts/daggers, less damage.... make it equivalent to archery for rangers in the long run, and boost ranger melee *whistle*

Image
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:05 pm

Hrm... mounted archery... would it add anything? I mean... while mounted would you get an extra shot? have a higher hit percentage? Or just lose less moves between zones? hehe. Honestly... I've never owned a horse on this MUD... though I got pretty friendly with a unicorn just the other day while going back and forth to BG trying to afford a bow and arrows. Image Which brings me to another idea...

How about if rangers could "tame" abandoned horses? I see them all the time... lost... dejected... looking for a good master. I'll usually grab them for a quick ride, then pat them on the flank and give them some oats or something... but then they are on their own again because they don't follow me! Misplaced faith their old master will come back I guess... Image

Would be nice if I could tame that horse and stable it or something... it seems the rangerly thing to do. Image
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Postby Jurdex » Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:07 pm

If specialization is a possibility, I think it would be cool for a ranger to be like an Archer (spec range weapons) or like a Bladesinger (spec melee weapons)..

Just my thoughts.. I always felt it would be cool to have elven Bladesingers and Archers running around heh.

Jurdex
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Postby Yayaril » Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:15 pm

I play a rogue and use ranged weapons for more than just luring. My range weapon damage far outweighs the damage I do with my melee weapons.


Yayaril
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Postby Treladian » Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:39 pm

Yeesh, did ANYONE read my post about the reality of thrown weapons? Yeah, you can throw them faster but you ain't gonna do crap other than give your target a bunch of bruises and an occasional cut if you don't gauge the distance properly. Throwing stuff faster and skipping that step would really lower the damage you would be doing.

Mounted archery wouldn't really do much with the way the mud's combat system is structured. The advantage that mounted archers had was that they could charge in, fire arrows at their targets, then outrun their enemy when they tried to retaliate. Then ride back in for another strike, repeating the process as needed. The only way I can see it being used on the mud is making it much harder for a mob to engage a ranger mounted on a horse and firing arrows so that a ranger can keep firing away.
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Postby Sarell » Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:46 pm

Transport Vi Plant, from a druidic perspective hehe

Nods this spell is pretty dumb atm, I like miax's idea about having a set point. The other thing I though was maybe restring the dim spell to check if the caster and target are in the same room? (or maybe even relocate for druids hehe)
Perhaps a combination of the two

ie

cast 'trans' Ladak
or
cast 'trans'

..the one without a variable is to the set point?...

shrugs...
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Postby Galkar » Wed Apr 11, 2001 12:49 am

I read your post trel, but i've seen a friend of mine, 3rd degree blackbelt in taekwondo, throw some mad daggers while moving and sticking every one of them... if his target had been a person, they'd have been torn apart... not sure if this is good to base my opinion off of, but i've seen it irl, so.... who knows
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Postby Nokie » Wed Apr 11, 2001 1:04 am

To expand upon what Galkar said, whe I think of rogue types throwing daggers, I think about the descriptions written about Artemis Entenrit (sp?) from the Salvatore books..
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Postby Tilandal » Wed Apr 11, 2001 1:09 am

Ok Im a little late on this thread but here are a few things Id like to change.

1.) this is the biggest one. The mobs AC should not affect miss rate! Really why would I miss if he has good armor? Id rather see a message like:

Damn! Your arrow bounces harmlessly off of a Black Griffon Warrior's Armor!

This would cut back on the stray arrows.

2.) Missing should be based on only 2 factors. Your skill in archery and the mobs skill in dodge.

3.) Id like to see a possibilty for an extra shot every round based on Dex. This would mean say Elves would have a 15% chance for and extra shot. Half-elves would have 10% and humans would have 5% (with 100 dex). Now your gonna ask oh why would anyone want to play human then? Well on to point 4

4.) We need a wider variety of bows! Realy there are only 2 bows used. The elven longbow from BG and the Ash long bow for those unfortunate humans. Well I'd like to see bows with higher damage potential but useable based on strength so Humans with high Str would be able to use bows that do more damage, Elves would fire more often but do less damage per shot, and half-elves would be in between.
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Postby Braggo » Wed Apr 11, 2001 1:34 am

*agree Jegzed* Drow hunters/scouts would be great, an archer for the evils! Image

------------------
Braggo Boulderbasher
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Postby Treladian » Wed Apr 11, 2001 2:01 am

Galkar, to paraphrase the old saying, targets don't hit back =p With a living target you'll have to deal with them changing the range as they're moving around as well. This is especially true when the target is engaged in melee with another person since they'll probably be circling around each other. Now, this might not be as much of a factor against larger opponents like giants and dragons that might not move around as much, but needless to say using throwing knives is more complex than reach into belt and throw, repeat as needed =p
Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Apr 11, 2001 2:14 am

More than once since Sojourn III was born I have been taken aback by a post, and lead to question the entire approach we had taken on something. Treladian just did that for me with regards to Rangers, your observations were on right on the money.

I think some fundamental fixes need to be put in place before any grandios proposal makes it out the door. Rangers are badly lacking at this point, good at alot of things, master at something not-so-useful. I wouldn't play one.

The below changes are based on feedback I scraped from your posts throughout this thread. I would like your feedback on them, and if these upgrades are ones the bulk of the Rangers would be more interested in seeing on Sojourn III:

1. Increase Rescue skill for Rangers to equal that of a Warriors. Rangers are nimble, quick, and graceful warriors. There is no reason why they shouldn't be able to rescue as well as Conan.

2. Increase Parry and Dodge for Rangers to be equal to that of Warriors. Again the same argument applies, a ranger wielding two weapons should parry and dodge with the speed of a monkey (being a high compliment).

3. Increase the Kick skill to do much more damage, and have a slight possibility of Crit-Hitting. This would be an upgrade for all fighter classes that use Kick, and we would give the Rangers a good affility for it. If all you have is two swords, you can Easily get off a great Kick much better than a heavily armored Warrior with a shield might. One could argue that they both would be good at it, and I would be most content to see them equal at it.

4. Stray arrows will no longer Aggro mobs to the Archer, but simply make the Missile Aware. Thus future shots wont land. As ranged-firing is being reduced to one-shot per round anyway, a mob with missile aware will heal faster than a twinkie could try and kill it from range. This should remove the danger of using archery regularly.

5. Create a Woodrafting skill for Rangers that allows them to create many useful things from nature. Boats, Torches, Arrows, Bows, even good Long bows and actual Bridges over water at high level. Why not? Rangers are masters of the Forest are they not? Just make it take a long ass time.

6. Allow forage to work on Roads as long as the Road is outdoors.

7. Add a "tame" skill for Rangers that would allow them to tame benevolant animals, especially horses, and take them on as pets.

8. Allow off-hand weapons to Proc. Any weapon that is deemed too powerful for this will simply be weighted beyond the range of doing it. Smaller weapon procs however, that are nice but not obscene, could be proced in both hands.

This we will call Proposal #2. Its almost purely a Melee upgrade to the class, but does remove the major Archery issue that prevents it use (mob aggroing). I wont do both proposals. This one paints the Rangers as more of a Figher in the Forest, who wont get as many hits, wont do as much damage, and can never bash or bodyslam like Warriors do. The would however Rescue, Dodge, and Parry as well as the Warrior can, be true masters of forest with the semi-useful spells, and kick some ass with 2 weapons. Its up to you guys, your the ones who will spend your lives playing the class. Which do you prefer?

Miax
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Postby Treladian » Wed Apr 11, 2001 3:00 am

I think it goes without saying that I lean more towards the second proposal. It makes ranged more useful while making the class a bit more versatile, and adaptability has always been one of the class's strong points IMO. I don't see a reason why a few elements of the first like the tweaks to the two spells or making a few ranged weapons in the game with procs can't also be done, but those are just periphery parts IMO. However, I'm <bold>only leaning</bold> towards the second proposal since I've yet to see exactly what a high level rogue is capable of damage wise. I'm not sold on either yet. It would be useful to have some comparisons of hitting percentage and damage output of warriors, rangers (in melee and ranged), and rogues as it currently stands before coming to a conclusion. I'm also curious about how much damage a rogue does without using circle or backstab in a fight as well for some more comparison, but that's not too vital. Any testers have anything to say on the subject? Either proposal has the potential to make the class very useful or bomb depending on how informed we are when deciding on this.

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