Well after much debate and look at all the threads that pertain to clerics, I think my friends and I finally came up with an effective small upgrade for clerics and justification for it; though addition of certain spells; and possible combination of spells for the cleric class.
If you compare the clerics spell higher circles to that of druid or shaman, it seems their needs to be more flushing out of 8th and 9th circle spell list. The spell lists are as follows:
Druid spell list:
8th circle: water breathing, rock to mud, mud to rock, fire seeds
9th circle: plane shift, hailstorm, entangle, desiccate
10th circle: creeping doom, moon well
Shaman spell list:
8th circle: water breathing, missile shield, spirit wrack, scry remains
9th circle: control weather, group heal, spirit walk
10th circle: ancestral fury, ancestral shield
Cleric spell list
8th circle: full harm, eradicate undead
9th circle: revive, plane shift
10th circle: resurrect, greater realm of protection
Now there have been a number of spells suggested for clerics. The spells, which I think are feasible and have been suggested, are:
Miracle- Suggest by Jurdex (http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000357.html)
Blade Barrier - http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000357.html
Soul Shield - Alignment based shield, similar to fire and cold
Chain Heal - http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000357.html
Group Vitality - http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000357.html
With that state my friends and I came up with one other spell, which we believe, would help out clerics and the people they group with and would fit right. As to group vitality, we think that should be a bard item, miracle is just to much target healing, and blade barrier and soul shield, well take a look at the spell below.
Spell called Sanctuary
SANCTUARY
Spell.
Area of effect: Self Only
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: N/A
Duration: Dependent on proficiency of caster
Class/Circle: Cleric 8th
Type of spell: Protection
Sanctuary effect would be this:
1. After cleric cast sanctuary he/she can’t be harmed by AREA EFFECT SPELLS
2. The caster while under sanctuary CANNOT cast offense spells of any kind
3. Mobs attacking the person under sanctuary take half the amount of damage, and if the mob is of opposite alignment, it takes damage from sanctuary.
Now, this would not stop mobs from switching to clerics, nor would it would stop direct-targeted damage spells, or dragon breath and this wouldn’t help the cleric solo better either.
So this is one of the spells that we suggest should be add to clerics. The other spell which is already in the game, which we feel should be add into the 9th circle is Vampiric Curse.
Hell clerics on EQ have the spell. Now people say wait, that for necromancers; well other classes such as gate/relocate share a number of spells. Would this would not take necromancers out of the equation, hell I don’t know one necromancer that has the spell already; and in addition to that, I see most if not all necromancers wanting to become liches. Finally if the cleric has sanctuary up, they couldn’t cast it anyway, so clerics have to decide what there role is going to be in the group, either mainly healer, or supporting melee combat.
The finally spell would be Chain Heal in 10th circle. Brief explanation of the spell is as follows:
Caster targets a character to be chained healed. That character gets 200 hit points of healing, then it would randomly heal 4 others, whether or not they need healing, in a sequence of two people get 100 points of healing, then two others getting 50 points of healing. Potentially healing a total of 5 people.
Then greater realm of protection we feel should be move to 8th circle too, basic 2 times as power as its 4th circle brethren. And the finally adjustment would be to change the cleric spell cast spirit to spell cast necromancy, put resurrection, revive, and vampiric curse in that area.
So the suggested cleric circle spells would look like this:
Cleric spell list
8th circle: full harm; eradicate undead, sanctuary, greater realm of protection
9th circle: revive, plane shift, vampiric curse
10th circle: resurrect, chain heal
Druid spell list:
8th circle: water breathing, rock to mud, mud to rock, fire seeds
9th circle: plane shift, hailstorm, entangle, desiccate
10th circle: creeping doom, moon well
Shaman spell list:
8th circle: water breathing, missile shield, spirit wrack, scry remains
9th circle: control weather, group heal, spirit walk
10th circle: ancestral fury, ancestral shield
And compared to the other two priest classes it looks a lot better P-). It will give clerics something in their 9th circle to cast during combat possibly, and there is no offensive abilities added, or over targeted healing. It would be cool to see what feedback is from the coders on this; but we all know that we are not a priority compared to say bards, elementalist, and ranger’s archery; but then again be nice to have some feedback.
[This message has been edited by Joth (edited 08-24-2001).]
Final suggestion for flushing out the cleric class
Althought I don't think clerics are finished, and a spell like blade barrier or soul shield would be neat....something like sanctuary looks extremely overpowered.
1. After cleric cast sanctuary he/she can’t be harmed by AREA EFFECT SPELLS
Already clerics end up with one of the highest hitpoint and spsv totals, and can heal themselves...
2. The caster while under sanctuary CANNOT cast offense spells of anykind
Besides earthquake every so often, they rarely do cast offense
..not much of a penalty for the bonuses.
3. Mobs attacking the person under sanctuary take half the amount of damage, and if the mob is of opposite alignment, it takes damage from sanctuary.
Half damage? Clerics are already one of the most durable classes, giving them 1/2 damage and area immunity...send in the dwarf clerics to tank!
Maybe I misunderstood the desired effects but as it looked when posted, this spell would seem to be well beyond the range of a spell a player should have.
Belle
1. After cleric cast sanctuary he/she can’t be harmed by AREA EFFECT SPELLS
Already clerics end up with one of the highest hitpoint and spsv totals, and can heal themselves...
2. The caster while under sanctuary CANNOT cast offense spells of anykind
Besides earthquake every so often, they rarely do cast offense
..not much of a penalty for the bonuses.3. Mobs attacking the person under sanctuary take half the amount of damage, and if the mob is of opposite alignment, it takes damage from sanctuary.
Half damage? Clerics are already one of the most durable classes, giving them 1/2 damage and area immunity...send in the dwarf clerics to tank!
Maybe I misunderstood the desired effects but as it looked when posted, this spell would seem to be well beyond the range of a spell a player should have.
Belle
-
Guest
excellent job joth. i personally didn't think cleric could be approved upon, but u showed me they could. i could see using sanctuary & chain healing cuz i dont believe in casting offensive, but i'm sure folks will use v curse in xp groups.
but if there was just 1 spells god adds 2 cleric it would be sanctuary just barely beating out chain healing.
1) sanctuary is unlike any spell out there
2) it would cause less ripples w/ shaman
sok
but if there was just 1 spells god adds 2 cleric it would be sanctuary just barely beating out chain healing.
1) sanctuary is unlike any spell out there
2) it would cause less ripples w/ shaman
sok
Santuary looks like a great spell, but as Kia mentioned, we need to look at mobs casting it. As it is described above, I don't want to fight a high level cleric mob at all anymore. Virtually doubling the hp of the mob and being immune to area damage = Big, mean, icky mob. Maybe tone it down a bit and it'd be great. Like half the damage done by areas but all other damage is normal. Or something like that.
Bell,
Hehe I think this is the reason why good to have the class talk about what they need sort of and other to review it. Your second statement:
2. The caster while under sanctuary CANNOT cast offense spells of anykind
Besides earthquake every so often, they rarely do cast offense ..not much of a penalty for the bonuses.
is similar to what I said that RANGER DON'T BASH don't give it to them give them something else.
Clerics cast alot of offensive spells, 1 being curse and 2. being silence! And if we were to have vampiric curse couldn't cast that, or blind. So those are the spells we cast that are offensive to debuff mobs, which is important.
"1. After cleric cast sanctuary he/she can’t be harmed by AREA EFFECT SPELLS
Already clerics end up with one of the highest hitpoint and spsv totals, and can heal themselves..."
And about the comment on healing selves, this is the exactly what sanctuary is for instead of cleric healing self during situations they can heal the tank or someone else.
Now we did think of different version of sanctuary. Where it was like to took so much damage melee and area damage, then the caster would have to recast it again. Also illusionist don't really take area damage to a certain degree.
Now as to 1/2 damage I can see that being taken away because thought since they being "pacify" people should get damage by it. And it could be like stoneskin too instead of like globe, where it takes a signficant amout of damage.
As to mobs have it, THEY CAN'T CAST ANY OFFENSE SPELLS, so I doubt they cast it.
[This message has been edited by Joth (edited 08-24-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Joth (edited 08-24-2001).]
Hehe I think this is the reason why good to have the class talk about what they need sort of and other to review it. Your second statement:
2. The caster while under sanctuary CANNOT cast offense spells of anykind
Besides earthquake every so often, they rarely do cast offense ..not much of a penalty for the bonuses.
is similar to what I said that RANGER DON'T BASH don't give it to them give them something else.
Clerics cast alot of offensive spells, 1 being curse and 2. being silence! And if we were to have vampiric curse couldn't cast that, or blind. So those are the spells we cast that are offensive to debuff mobs, which is important.
"1. After cleric cast sanctuary he/she can’t be harmed by AREA EFFECT SPELLS
Already clerics end up with one of the highest hitpoint and spsv totals, and can heal themselves..."
And about the comment on healing selves, this is the exactly what sanctuary is for instead of cleric healing self during situations they can heal the tank or someone else.
Now we did think of different version of sanctuary. Where it was like to took so much damage melee and area damage, then the caster would have to recast it again. Also illusionist don't really take area damage to a certain degree.
Now as to 1/2 damage I can see that being taken away because thought since they being "pacify" people should get damage by it. And it could be like stoneskin too instead of like globe, where it takes a signficant amout of damage.
As to mobs have it, THEY CAN'T CAST ANY OFFENSE SPELLS, so I doubt they cast it.
[This message has been edited by Joth (edited 08-24-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Joth (edited 08-24-2001).]
I personally think that the self-castable defensive spells suggested here (Blade Barrier, Sanctuary) are sort of unnecessary. As Bell mentioned, it is true that clerics end up having the highest hp and saves due to the equipment types that are out there. Add a nice 250 vit and they basically reign in groups :P Afterall, those other support classes have to do something, and if a cleric feared attacks that much maybe that cleric outta ask for the traditional armor/bark/blur/displace etc.
Spells like Miracle... it would be interesting to see mobs heal themselves ultra fast. And I wonder what the casting time would be... full heal already takes too long
Chain heal is still too much like group heal... the only time a cleric would cast it rather than watch who to full heal is after an area. If this were put in shamans would lose much of their only real contribution to the group, as you could just replace them with chain healing clerics.
I've come to believe that clerics, like warriors, make or break a zone group. Though both don't have very many fancy options available while doing zones, the skills that they do have is dramatically important to the success of a group.
The best thing I could think of is to move Greater Realms of Protection down to 9th circle (its useful, but not worthy of 10th I say!) and add an offensive 10th circle spell so that clerics can have a little fun. There is a reason, afterall, to why clerical mobs are so easy to kill :P
-Kaede
Spells like Miracle... it would be interesting to see mobs heal themselves ultra fast. And I wonder what the casting time would be... full heal already takes too long
Chain heal is still too much like group heal... the only time a cleric would cast it rather than watch who to full heal is after an area. If this were put in shamans would lose much of their only real contribution to the group, as you could just replace them with chain healing clerics.
I've come to believe that clerics, like warriors, make or break a zone group. Though both don't have very many fancy options available while doing zones, the skills that they do have is dramatically important to the success of a group.
The best thing I could think of is to move Greater Realms of Protection down to 9th circle (its useful, but not worthy of 10th I say!) and add an offensive 10th circle spell so that clerics can have a little fun. There is a reason, afterall, to why clerical mobs are so easy to kill :P
-Kaede
Kaede,
The spell chain heal wouldn't replace shamans. Group heal heals the WHOLE GROUP FOR 100 HP. Chain heals heal only 5 people; 1 the target the cleric hits, ei: the tank, for 200 then two random people for 100, then another 2 for 50. I would use this during area attack, but I would still be healing the tank, plus it is failable in 10th circle.
I was in a situation with a group where we had 3 clerics, (45 47 49) and one level 42 shaman, because we lacked the area healing we couldn't do loki. But if the reverse was true 3 shamans and 1 42 cleric we couldn't of done it.
The spell chain heal wouldn't replace shamans. Group heal heals the WHOLE GROUP FOR 100 HP. Chain heals heal only 5 people; 1 the target the cleric hits, ei: the tank, for 200 then two random people for 100, then another 2 for 50. I would use this during area attack, but I would still be healing the tank, plus it is failable in 10th circle.
I was in a situation with a group where we had 3 clerics, (45 47 49) and one level 42 shaman, because we lacked the area healing we couldn't do loki. But if the reverse was true 3 shamans and 1 42 cleric we couldn't of done it.
Joth, have you considered this...
Chain Heal would retain its name just be a little bit different in effect.
<> help chain heal
"CHAIN HEAL"
Area of effect: (victim)
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: Yes
Duration: 3 rounds
Class/Circle: Cleric 10th
Type of Spell: Healing
This spell is a more powerful version of the heal spell. When cast on a party member, the spell will continue to heal them once a round for a total of three rounds. However, a normal heal spell may not be cast on the subject while they are a recipient of this divine power, only full heal can mend their wounds until the duration has been met.
See also: HEAL
It won't stack with group heal, but can keep a tank barely alive when he goes into a nasty room?
And feh to mobs being able to fully heal themselves. If miracle can heal a max of like say 1500 for us (I dunno any pc with 1500 hps!), it should max at 1500 for them!
Dornax
Jurdex
[This message has been edited by Jurdex (edited 08-24-2001).]
Chain Heal would retain its name just be a little bit different in effect.
<> help chain heal
"CHAIN HEAL"
Area of effect: (victim)
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: Yes
Duration: 3 rounds
Class/Circle: Cleric 10th
Type of Spell: Healing
This spell is a more powerful version of the heal spell. When cast on a party member, the spell will continue to heal them once a round for a total of three rounds. However, a normal heal spell may not be cast on the subject while they are a recipient of this divine power, only full heal can mend their wounds until the duration has been met.
See also: HEAL
It won't stack with group heal, but can keep a tank barely alive when he goes into a nasty room?
And feh to mobs being able to fully heal themselves. If miracle can heal a max of like say 1500 for us (I dunno any pc with 1500 hps!), it should max at 1500 for them!
Dornax
Jurdex
[This message has been edited by Jurdex (edited 08-24-2001).]
Jurdex,
Idea is pretty much a like regenation spell, maybe that what we should have in 10th circle; instead of chain heal. Spell Regeneration does heal spell for for 3 rounds.
But I defiantly see sanctuary(modified version) and vampiric curse being the spells that we should defiantly get.
[This message has been edited by Joth (edited 08-24-2001).]
Idea is pretty much a like regenation spell, maybe that what we should have in 10th circle; instead of chain heal. Spell Regeneration does heal spell for for 3 rounds.
But I defiantly see sanctuary(modified version) and vampiric curse being the spells that we should defiantly get.
[This message has been edited by Joth (edited 08-24-2001).]
Hmm.. nods. a few good ideas here that we've talked about. Glad you compiled stuff into 1 thread
Some comments from me based on stuff I've experienced in zoning groups:
Full heal.. it is _really_ dissapointing when FH only does 350-400hps to the tank, especially with master spellcast and very good specialize. It takes 2 clerics to heal a tank back to max hps if they are hurt badly.
That said, I think a 10th circle 'miracle' type spell (double FH power.. say it maxes at 1K hps of healing at lvl 50 and high skill level, with it doing 750hps+, and definately make it a quest spell.
Mobs casting this could be quite interesting.
Greater Realm.. people seem to underestimate its usefulness.. I think its too powerful for 8th circle. 9th circle would be a good spot for it, but I say keep it at 10th because it gives me something to do regularly with that circle besides resurrect (then again, I rarely use my 9th circle spells).
I think a 9th circle regeneration spell would be nice.. have to decide how to do this though... I would think a longer duration (say a couple min) with lower healing power.. so its basically like a faster regenration.. like cure serious healing, or even cure light healing (10-20hps) every round for the duration.
I do like dornax's suggestion about chain heal doing a repeated heal for 3 rounds too.
I would also like to see a new high lvl offensive spell, since our only real semi-offensive is full harm (holy word is nerfed.. not gonna get into that again, as I'm sure you all know my feeling on it :P ).
Some comments from me based on stuff I've experienced in zoning groups:
Full heal.. it is _really_ dissapointing when FH only does 350-400hps to the tank, especially with master spellcast and very good specialize. It takes 2 clerics to heal a tank back to max hps if they are hurt badly.
That said, I think a 10th circle 'miracle' type spell (double FH power.. say it maxes at 1K hps of healing at lvl 50 and high skill level, with it doing 750hps+, and definately make it a quest spell.
Mobs casting this could be quite interesting.
Greater Realm.. people seem to underestimate its usefulness.. I think its too powerful for 8th circle. 9th circle would be a good spot for it, but I say keep it at 10th because it gives me something to do regularly with that circle besides resurrect (then again, I rarely use my 9th circle spells).
I think a 9th circle regeneration spell would be nice.. have to decide how to do this though... I would think a longer duration (say a couple min) with lower healing power.. so its basically like a faster regenration.. like cure serious healing, or even cure light healing (10-20hps) every round for the duration.
I do like dornax's suggestion about chain heal doing a repeated heal for 3 rounds too.
I would also like to see a new high lvl offensive spell, since our only real semi-offensive is full harm (holy word is nerfed.. not gonna get into that again, as I'm sure you all know my feeling on it :P ).
I told Joth that sanctuary was too powerful but, to be fair I group with him a lot and he casts _way_ more offensive spells than I do as an enchanter.
Just a note on the chain heal spell. What we were trying to think of was a way to add another healing spell to clerics somewhere(without infringing upon shamans gheal). they have 2 useful heal spells at higher levels (heal and full heal) they are nice spells but seeing as healing is their role
it is almost silly that they have a circle like 8th that is just damage.
some other ideas that we came up with or that were mentioned elsewhere:
Regeneration.
could be either a short lived pretty potent heal like was mentioned above.
like a few rounds of 100 point heals
or a longer duration spell like haste maybe that typically lasts the whole fight but would lend smaller doses like 10 per round.
a shield type spell that would proc heal light (or something in that range) when hit.
a spell in between heal and full heal.
call it greater heal make it like 200-250
then bump full heal up a circle so and make it maybe about 100 points more effective.
I think there may have been a few others but I can't remember now
Dibble.
Just a note on the chain heal spell. What we were trying to think of was a way to add another healing spell to clerics somewhere(without infringing upon shamans gheal). they have 2 useful heal spells at higher levels (heal and full heal) they are nice spells but seeing as healing is their role
it is almost silly that they have a circle like 8th that is just damage.
some other ideas that we came up with or that were mentioned elsewhere:
Regeneration.
could be either a short lived pretty potent heal like was mentioned above.
like a few rounds of 100 point heals
or a longer duration spell like haste maybe that typically lasts the whole fight but would lend smaller doses like 10 per round.
a shield type spell that would proc heal light (or something in that range) when hit.
a spell in between heal and full heal.
call it greater heal make it like 200-250
then bump full heal up a circle so and make it maybe about 100 points more effective.
I think there may have been a few others but I can't remember now
Dibble.
Baah,
Okay sanctuary in its original incarnation is power now; but the modified versions are fine.
Anyway real reason why I am post now is I was talking to dibble on the phone, and start talking to others. Chain heal should stay as is; but what Jurdex suggest is tight, and should be called “Regeneration”.
Dibble thought it should do healing over time like 10 hp per tick; on the other hand though I like what Jurdex said and thought it should heal more in shorter amount of time.
So this is the idea we came up with. The caster cast regeneration on target, it heals 100 hp right away, if the person is damage, then for like 4 roads it heals only 50 points, after that for certain amount of times heals 20 points, then 10 points per tick, and would last as long as haste, but it is not stackable. So this would be spell that could be cast during spell up, and during combat, on those who didn’t receive the spells, i.e. tanking melee types.
But the big thing is we both agreed that not clerics, but Druids should get this spell, and it should be in there 8th circle because rock to mud, and mud to rock, is pretty much one spell, that is not used that often P-). It would make them even with Shaman and the newly flush out clerics. It would also be a reason why to have two druids too.
Now in a 15 man group you would want 5 healing types, 1 cleric 1 shaman 1 druid, then the last 2 would be flush out with any combo be it 2 druids 2 shamans or 2 clerics, or any combinations; specially now with the player base the way it is.
Cleric spell list
8th circle: full harm; eradicate undead, sanctuary, greater realm of protection
9th circle: revive, plane shift, vampiric curse
10th circle: resurrect, chain heal
Druid spell list:
8th circle: water breathing, rock to mud, mud to rock, fire seeds, regeneration
9th circle: plane shift, hailstorm, entangle, desiccate
10th circle: creeping doom, moon well
Shaman spell list:
8th circle: water breathing, missile shield, spirit wrack, scry remains
9th circle: control weather, group heal, spirit walk
10th circle: ancestral fury, ancestral shield
Okay sanctuary in its original incarnation is power now; but the modified versions are fine.
Anyway real reason why I am post now is I was talking to dibble on the phone, and start talking to others. Chain heal should stay as is; but what Jurdex suggest is tight, and should be called “Regeneration”.
Dibble thought it should do healing over time like 10 hp per tick; on the other hand though I like what Jurdex said and thought it should heal more in shorter amount of time.
So this is the idea we came up with. The caster cast regeneration on target, it heals 100 hp right away, if the person is damage, then for like 4 roads it heals only 50 points, after that for certain amount of times heals 20 points, then 10 points per tick, and would last as long as haste, but it is not stackable. So this would be spell that could be cast during spell up, and during combat, on those who didn’t receive the spells, i.e. tanking melee types.
But the big thing is we both agreed that not clerics, but Druids should get this spell, and it should be in there 8th circle because rock to mud, and mud to rock, is pretty much one spell, that is not used that often P-). It would make them even with Shaman and the newly flush out clerics. It would also be a reason why to have two druids too.
Now in a 15 man group you would want 5 healing types, 1 cleric 1 shaman 1 druid, then the last 2 would be flush out with any combo be it 2 druids 2 shamans or 2 clerics, or any combinations; specially now with the player base the way it is.
Cleric spell list
8th circle: full harm; eradicate undead, sanctuary, greater realm of protection
9th circle: revive, plane shift, vampiric curse
10th circle: resurrect, chain heal
Druid spell list:
8th circle: water breathing, rock to mud, mud to rock, fire seeds, regeneration
9th circle: plane shift, hailstorm, entangle, desiccate
10th circle: creeping doom, moon well
Shaman spell list:
8th circle: water breathing, missile shield, spirit wrack, scry remains
9th circle: control weather, group heal, spirit walk
10th circle: ancestral fury, ancestral shield
No necromancers have vampiric curse because the quest isn't even in the game yet. And it's going to be a big reason to have a necro in the group. Don't take that away, and it doesn't fit very well theme-wise except maybe with evil clerics.. maybe replace unholy word with vampiric curse, and make it only useable by evil clerics
Second, giving regen to druids is all fine and good.. until you see that evils don't get druids, ya see.... so it makes goodies have even more variation/flexibility over their evil counterparts, and doesn't fix anything for the 'cleric blues'.
-Todrael
Second, giving regen to druids is all fine and good.. until you see that evils don't get druids, ya see.... so it makes goodies have even more variation/flexibility over their evil counterparts, and doesn't fix anything for the 'cleric blues'.
-Todrael
Some off the top of head babble *skip*
Sanctuary:
Hmmmm... clerics do have an awful lot of hitpoints as it is. Which makes me ponder over a couple of points relating to the concept of this spell, just ponderings tho, I would like a gazillion spells for everyone!
How good an initial tank would a cleric make with effectively having 2000 hitpoints and being immune to areas, would they be better to send in first than our trusty 1000 hitpoint warrior with defensive skills. I havn't played my warrior this wipe, but from Cherz's much appreciated logs, they are pretty damn good at defense these days at high level. Which leads me to believe the cleric would be best in some spots, wraith land, and the warrior in others. Keeping in mind the cleric would prolly walk in and start casting full heal on self aswell!
Having no offense magic while sanc is up makes perfect sense, that stops the cleric from using it as a soloing weapon of mass destruction!
Regeneration:
Great idea for a spell Jurdex! However Shevvy did say atm that the one quip he had with the new combat engine is that PCs did have it a bi too easy as it was and hence the reason for holding back the introduction of elementalists. Having more spells that help out PC tanks as this on could, again on initial entry (tho i think cleric would be doing that *duck*) might play with balance as a whole quite a bit. It would certainly I think be a good spell for a druid, no not because I play one atm, but becasue it fits into that whole theme of regrowth and maintaining the present balance. The point about evils not having druids was a good one and made me go hey yer!, but then I thought hmmm...hold on... How many hitpoints more does a troll tank get, + the total extendedregen throughout combat. We all agree evil warrior are the best right?
Chain Heal:
I could see this as a fun little addition for small groups. Honestly couldn't see it being used much in a serious group getting areas and such, you will take shamans. And in most situations you going to be healing the tanks anyhow.
Plane Shift:
What you say they have this, put down that crack sarell! Someone mentioned in another thread, forget who sorry
, that this could make for an interesting group spell. Hmmmm we all getting our asses kicked in crypts here... Should I shift the group to ethereal?, Will I land the group on a nasty and they hate me forever, will I save the day? On second thought too powerful... I think the fold spell pretty dang nifty like this..It work in !tele zones?
Hmmm anyhow, I like the ideas and certainly am impressed with all the thought Joth has put into this stuff! In line with Sok's sentinment about thinking clerics were good as they are (and they are) it is always good to see sparkles of imagination coming up with more kick ass improvements all the time!
Safe Travels!
Sanctuary:
Hmmmm... clerics do have an awful lot of hitpoints as it is. Which makes me ponder over a couple of points relating to the concept of this spell, just ponderings tho, I would like a gazillion spells for everyone!
How good an initial tank would a cleric make with effectively having 2000 hitpoints and being immune to areas, would they be better to send in first than our trusty 1000 hitpoint warrior with defensive skills. I havn't played my warrior this wipe, but from Cherz's much appreciated logs
, they are pretty damn good at defense these days at high level. Which leads me to believe the cleric would be best in some spots, wraith land, and the warrior in others. Keeping in mind the cleric would prolly walk in and start casting full heal on self aswell!Having no offense magic while sanc is up makes perfect sense, that stops the cleric from using it as a soloing weapon of mass destruction!
Regeneration:
Great idea for a spell Jurdex
! However Shevvy did say atm that the one quip he had with the new combat engine is that PCs did have it a bi too easy as it was and hence the reason for holding back the introduction of elementalists. Having more spells that help out PC tanks as this on could, again on initial entry (tho i think cleric would be doing that *duck*) might play with balance as a whole quite a bit. It would certainly I think be a good spell for a druid, no not because I play one atm, but becasue it fits into that whole theme of regrowth and maintaining the present balance. The point about evils not having druids was a good one and made me go hey yer!, but then I thought hmmm...hold on... How many hitpoints more does a troll tank get, + the total extendedregen throughout combat. We all agree evil warrior are the best right?Chain Heal:
I could see this as a fun little addition for small groups. Honestly couldn't see it being used much in a serious group getting areas and such, you will take shamans. And in most situations you going to be healing the tanks anyhow.
Plane Shift:
What you say they have this, put down that crack sarell! Someone mentioned in another thread, forget who sorry
, that this could make for an interesting group spell. Hmmmm we all getting our asses kicked in crypts here... Should I shift the group to ethereal?, Will I land the group on a nasty and they hate me forever, will I save the day? On second thought too powerful... I think the fold spell pretty dang nifty like this..It work in !tele zones?Hmmm anyhow, I like the ideas and certainly am impressed with all the thought Joth has put into this stuff! In line with Sok's sentinment about thinking clerics were good as they are (and they are) it is always good to see sparkles of imagination coming up with more kick ass improvements all the time!
Safe Travels!
This isn't majorly important..
However, if/when you do cleric changes, can we please get some nifty new ansi on our spells?
For example: the ansi for failing a ress is wicked cool gray/black with white mingled in.. but a successful ress is bland!
Also, you *really* should examine FLAME STRIKE and how absolutely pathetic this spell is (but kudos on the ansi!). Cause Crit does more damage and is a circle lower. Flame Strike in 3rd addition causes half fire damage and half divine damage meaning you can't save versus the divine half if you have prot fire.. kinda nifty.. and its one of the most powerful damage spells a cleric gets!
Regeneration should not be a druid spell.
Sanctuary is actually more of a druidic spell.
I would suggest sanctuary actually be a spell where the cleric can't attack or be attacked, but that is imbalancing (especially if a mob used it).
Another note.. true sight is a cleric spell in third edition, and would be an awesome addition for the class.
Basically I am making a lot of suggestions, but only really feel a few things need to be tweaked or maybe added. Like a spell like miracle or chain heal, true sight and an upgraded anti-undead ability/spell.. would be great, or maybe modify flame strike, add in a dispel enchantment spell and upgrade holy word.. something along those lines would round out the class.
Anyway, thanks very much for the time, and keep up the great work!
Dornax
Jurdex
However, if/when you do cleric changes, can we please get some nifty new ansi on our spells?
For example: the ansi for failing a ress is wicked cool gray/black with white mingled in.. but a successful ress is bland!
Also, you *really* should examine FLAME STRIKE and how absolutely pathetic this spell is (but kudos on the ansi!). Cause Crit does more damage and is a circle lower. Flame Strike in 3rd addition causes half fire damage and half divine damage meaning you can't save versus the divine half if you have prot fire.. kinda nifty.. and its one of the most powerful damage spells a cleric gets!
Regeneration should not be a druid spell.
Sanctuary is actually more of a druidic spell.
I would suggest sanctuary actually be a spell where the cleric can't attack or be attacked, but that is imbalancing (especially if a mob used it).
Another note.. true sight is a cleric spell in third edition, and would be an awesome addition for the class.
Basically I am making a lot of suggestions, but only really feel a few things need to be tweaked or maybe added. Like a spell like miracle or chain heal, true sight and an upgraded anti-undead ability/spell.. would be great, or maybe modify flame strike, add in a dispel enchantment spell and upgrade holy word.. something along those lines would round out the class.
Anyway, thanks very much for the time, and keep up the great work!
Dornax
Jurdex
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Varia
- Sojourner
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: North Vancouver, BC, Canada
- Contact:
On the subject of tweaks I personally would like to see something done about the current lag on Holy Word. The fast-cast/no-lag nature of it was vital to its utility in many circumstances. I do appreciate that the gods agreed that it was underpowered a bit last wipe, but in the attempt to upgrade it for this wipe you got carried away enough to have to nerf your own upgrade, and in a way which destroys a lot of the old utility of the spell. However, the new version has some uses too and clerics could use the variety, so what I would like to suggest is keep the new holy word, but rename it (Scripture, or Commandment or somesuch name that servers to imply both its longer-than-a-single-word nature, and thus account for the lag in a rp way), and then reinstate the original holy word at the same level so that clerics and paladins have a choice on which to use.
*Hugs*
Varia
*Hugs*
Varia
I remember a post somewhere about warriors, and them wanting more skills between 22-40. I think this thread sort of falls under the same thing. Why would one of the core classes need to be compared to semi core classes? I'm talking about Druids and Shaman. Top level clerics are always needed. Clerics much like enchanters are loved or hated by their tanks. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't see any justification for upgrading clerics. I personally think, the initial upgrad to the cleric offense skill was a step in the right direction. When I play my warrior, I prefer my cleric focused on casting heal than offense. Not all fights are the same, there are the fights you may not even need heal, but the fights you do, are the once you need your cleric healing and occasionally hitting, than trying to heal and nuke :P This is all just my opinion heh.
Ubek, the lack of clerics or invokers is startling.
The mass amount of rangers, druids, shaman and rogues should tell one something.
Those classes are more fun to play for most people.
Clerics don't _need_ anything more. Correct.
For people to enjoy the class and actually find it fun, they most certainly could use some tweaking.
In my opinion, at least.
Dornax
Jurdex
The mass amount of rangers, druids, shaman and rogues should tell one something.
Those classes are more fun to play for most people.
Clerics don't _need_ anything more. Correct.
For people to enjoy the class and actually find it fun, they most certainly could use some tweaking.
In my opinion, at least.
Dornax
Jurdex
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Hamibugan Sinweaver
- Sojourner
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Mon May 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Japan
Good stuff Joth.
Dornax is a very perceptive, smart man.
I've been non-existent for the last two weeks 60% from work 40% from total boredom with my class and exp'n it. These changes would be welcome indeed.
I will throw in however, that I'd like to see ranged combat, and conjie fixes in. 75% of my fun in playing was lost when a certain conjie bailed on us out of frustration.
------------------
That is all. Peace.
Hami
Dornax is a very perceptive, smart man.
I've been non-existent for the last two weeks 60% from work 40% from total boredom with my class and exp'n it. These changes would be welcome indeed.
I will throw in however, that I'd like to see ranged combat, and conjie fixes in. 75% of my fun in playing was lost when a certain conjie bailed on us out of frustration.
------------------
That is all. Peace.
Hami
Great suggestions here. I'm not trying to add anything but I would just like to point out a few things.
The need for tweaking the cleric class is definitely there. If you don't believe then you can try playing one full time.
And I do believe that most clerics ask for class tweaks rather than upgrades so plz don't hammer the suggestions right away.
That's all I ask and let's see how it will work out =)
Wargo/Gwubi/Yssilk
The need for tweaking the cleric class is definitely there. If you don't believe then you can try playing one full time.
And I do believe that most clerics ask for class tweaks rather than upgrades so plz don't hammer the suggestions right away.
That's all I ask and let's see how it will work out =)
Wargo/Gwubi/Yssilk
Jurdex, I agree with what you are saying, make the class fun, power doesn't always equal fun. Take a look at enchanter class and note, some people are not willing to pay the price. Alot of the suggestions here just add more power to an already poweful class.
Having an offensive skill and being able to hit would be a good direction in my opnion and a much easier direction to balance for clerics. So they could get novelty skills like headbutt(hah), maybe a chance to ko a mob with 2h bludgeon skill past 75? I also do think fun should be at some point seperated from zoning. Take a look at invokers for example, its a fun class, if you get to be in new challenging fights that require you to actually pay attention and nuke in a certain manner or pattern. Building on the path the Gods have already taken(more offense skill for clerics) would serve better for tweaks than some of the suggested upgrades(new spell=upgrade especially 5th circle and above). Ie, Halfling clerics with haste could get 3 hits maybe? Making a lvl 50 cleric would +hit/dam gear on a true battle cleric :P Hand him a badass proc mace and watch him explode. You can vit yourself, no need to wear 700+ hps while xping. Oh well, again more of my opnions than anything.
Having an offensive skill and being able to hit would be a good direction in my opnion and a much easier direction to balance for clerics. So they could get novelty skills like headbutt(hah), maybe a chance to ko a mob with 2h bludgeon skill past 75? I also do think fun should be at some point seperated from zoning. Take a look at invokers for example, its a fun class, if you get to be in new challenging fights that require you to actually pay attention and nuke in a certain manner or pattern. Building on the path the Gods have already taken(more offense skill for clerics) would serve better for tweaks than some of the suggested upgrades(new spell=upgrade especially 5th circle and above). Ie, Halfling clerics with haste could get 3 hits maybe? Making a lvl 50 cleric would +hit/dam gear on a true battle cleric :P Hand him a badass proc mace and watch him explode. You can vit yourself, no need to wear 700+ hps while xping. Oh well, again more of my opnions than anything.
No need to wear 700hps while exping?
You're entirely wrong.
The reason - mobs switch to clerics first. Often times during ship exp (probably the best in the game since the mobs are all different), I will eat 500 hps worth of damage from a switch before a pc even has a chance to rescue me. Yes, bashers work, but they sometimes miss or ld, etc. AC pretty much doesn't matter when you have no defensive skills whatsoever except dodge.
Having a higher 1h bludgeon and offensive skill did little to help since we need hp gear and not hitter gear.
Clerics are pretty skilled with a shield. Perhaps we could quest to learn shieldblock or something.
Still not sure where you think all of this "power" will come to clerics. We don't solo as efficiently as our clerical brethren. Shaman have a broad base of utility spells and we don't do near as much damage as druids. I am not saying downgrade or upgrade this class or that class. I am offering suggestions to make my favored class more fun. I won't suggest anything that is unbalancing. (In fact, I think miracle is far from overpowering, and that is the thing I'd like to see implemented most)
Also, I tend to think those that play enchanters find them to be very fun..
Take it easy.
Dornax
Jurdex
You're entirely wrong.
The reason - mobs switch to clerics first. Often times during ship exp (probably the best in the game since the mobs are all different), I will eat 500 hps worth of damage from a switch before a pc even has a chance to rescue me. Yes, bashers work, but they sometimes miss or ld, etc. AC pretty much doesn't matter when you have no defensive skills whatsoever except dodge.
Having a higher 1h bludgeon and offensive skill did little to help since we need hp gear and not hitter gear.
Clerics are pretty skilled with a shield. Perhaps we could quest to learn shieldblock or something.
Still not sure where you think all of this "power" will come to clerics. We don't solo as efficiently as our clerical brethren. Shaman have a broad base of utility spells and we don't do near as much damage as druids. I am not saying downgrade or upgrade this class or that class. I am offering suggestions to make my favored class more fun. I won't suggest anything that is unbalancing. (In fact, I think miracle is far from overpowering, and that is the thing I'd like to see implemented most)
Also, I tend to think those that play enchanters find them to be very fun..
Take it easy.
Dornax
Jurdex
Personally, I think it's sad that sunray is the single most effective clerical spell against undead. Please fix the undead stuff and give clerics that small niche. I'm sure that you are not going to see clerics soloing crypts or something because of this. It doesn't make any sense to have these powers degraded, I can't think of many instances *other than ribcage/avernus* where these spells get much useage at all. As for the above mentioned, why shouldn't clerics beat down undead? This would also help ease the pain of evil clerics not being able to use unholy word(which maybe a moot point since dg's).
Shrug, makes sense to me.
Twyl
Shrug, makes sense to me.
Twyl
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Salenthelor
- Sojourner
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Tue May 01, 2001 5:01 am
Here's one. Give Druids Fheal give shaman Revive, then delete the cleric class.
No I'm not being silly. Because everything seems to be 'niche' oriented anyway, this solves the problem with the other priest classes doing everything better or whatever.
In essence, what is does is makes both classes clerics that have to choose a pantheon, either drawing from ancestors and thus being connected with the spirit realm to draw people back from it, or from nature and being able to use that contact to heal. Plus it gives each one something useful in terms beyond what they are now. Shaman now have a non-combat use, and druids are must haves for groups, not luxuries. Gotta divide protection spells up somehow, but didn't think that far into it.
Will anyone take the idea seriously, prolly not. Why? Because clerics are one of the D&D Core Four, and its tradition. Just a thought though. Beyond tradition, I'd like a good reason though.
Tangent
I've often thought of suggesting a Lichdom type quest for clerics, make them Saint or Dark Priest, give them Holy word and Ress with that quest and make the spells truly kick-ass.
For that matter, make a quest like that for all the classes eventually. I think Enchanters becoming Artificers who can change the shape(wear location) of eq would be cool; let them re-string it too. Or a Druid becoming Heirophant and getting.......... Something cool and Druidy?
Anyway, you get the idea.
Hehe, just thought of something. Gotta have evil race druids if your gonna do this. But so, let Doogies or Orcs do it. And keep them neutral, just to make it interesting.
No I'm not being silly. Because everything seems to be 'niche' oriented anyway, this solves the problem with the other priest classes doing everything better or whatever.
In essence, what is does is makes both classes clerics that have to choose a pantheon, either drawing from ancestors and thus being connected with the spirit realm to draw people back from it, or from nature and being able to use that contact to heal. Plus it gives each one something useful in terms beyond what they are now. Shaman now have a non-combat use, and druids are must haves for groups, not luxuries. Gotta divide protection spells up somehow, but didn't think that far into it.
Will anyone take the idea seriously, prolly not. Why? Because clerics are one of the D&D Core Four, and its tradition. Just a thought though. Beyond tradition, I'd like a good reason though.
Tangent
I've often thought of suggesting a Lichdom type quest for clerics, make them Saint or Dark Priest, give them Holy word and Ress with that quest and make the spells truly kick-ass.
For that matter, make a quest like that for all the classes eventually. I think Enchanters becoming Artificers who can change the shape(wear location) of eq would be cool; let them re-string it too. Or a Druid becoming Heirophant and getting.......... Something cool and Druidy?
Anyway, you get the idea.
Hehe, just thought of something. Gotta have evil race druids if your gonna do this. But so, let Doogies or Orcs do it. And keep them neutral, just to make it interesting.
*nods* dornax, since we have to kill lvl55+ mobs for any chance of getting exp, we still have to wear our hp gear. As you said, if a mob switches to me while exping, I'll usually take 300+hps before getting rescued. The best I can get to for hit/dam stuff is about 14/8 while still being able to take a crit or tank a round. Not like we do all that much damage anyway.. yeah it was fun hitting evey now and then, but the 1 sporradic attack isn't worth dropping a crapload of hps for.
Twyl.. nods. Ask any higher lvl cleric if they use blindness while zoning. Even for xp purposes its rather useless.. duration is the shortest of any blind spells out there (2min at high lvl and skill if you're lucky). We'd rather have the druid sunray or mage PWB the mob, while we cast curse and silence.
Twyl.. nods. Ask any higher lvl cleric if they use blindness while zoning. Even for xp purposes its rather useless.. duration is the shortest of any blind spells out there (2min at high lvl and skill if you're lucky). We'd rather have the druid sunray or mage PWB the mob, while we cast curse and silence.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Salenthelor:
<B>Here's one. Give Druids Fheal give shaman Revive, then delete the cleric class.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ROFL!
Zoning without fheal would be fun. You gotta be kidding me.
/Jegzed
<B>Here's one. Give Druids Fheal give shaman Revive, then delete the cleric class.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ROFL!
Zoning without fheal would be fun. You gotta be kidding me.
/Jegzed
Gotta love that delete a class to round out the other 2 classes idea. I wouldn't mind donating some of my cleric spells with shamans in order to get all druid spells. Resurrection really sucks because it can not be used for yourself and moonwell is great as a replacement =) This will be much easier to do since only one side has the extra class anyway =P
Wargo/Yssilk
Wargo/Yssilk
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