Could we get a clear definition of what balance will be considered for the MUD?
Absolute Balance would be extremely difficult to obtain and probobly require a pwipe. It would require:
1) Equivilent experience tables for all classes
2) Equivilent power in different tasks for all classes at max level.
3) Equivilent power in different tasks for all classes at various checkpoints (say every five levels). How is this measured? Make a base class and give other classes skills/magic based on this base class.
4) Equipment in a good distribution for the different specializations.
5) Power should be balanced around a core group defined as X (1 tank, 2 hitters, 1 evoker, &c)
Most people don't want absolute balance, not at the expense of a pwipe, and the Gods have made it clear that such is not their intention, so my question is what is being aimed for?
We keep seeing tweaks up and down in the name of "balance" but how are you defining it?
(A very confused) Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Balance
Ok, so there was a bug in the defensive skills for tanks, and that was squashed, and now tanks have a much harder time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like combat is becoming harder, with difficulty increasing exponentially. Are the changes being made to balance combat for when elementalists will be in?
If it is, then why are the changes taking place now? Shouldn't the tweaks begin after all the classes are complete, or are we going to have to face another set of tweaks once elementalists/bards are finished?
You can't balance combat w/o one of the core classes being implemented, or is combat being balanced so that when elementalists enter the scene everything will be balanced?
If it is, then why are the changes taking place now? Shouldn't the tweaks begin after all the classes are complete, or are we going to have to face another set of tweaks once elementalists/bards are finished?
You can't balance combat w/o one of the core classes being implemented, or is combat being balanced so that when elementalists enter the scene everything will be balanced?
Killopile:
I have yet, anywhere, to see a clear definition of this that meets my criteria as a mathematical and computer sciences person.
I have never seen a definition of balance that even vaguely looks like a documented definition. Kindly refrain from flaming.
For example:
Take the following tests.
1) It takes a good group of players X with appropriate equipment a theoretical average of N1 amount of time to take on mob Z1.
2) Class Y1 can survive an average of P1 rounds against mob Z1. In that time it will deal R damage.
3) Class Y1 deals R damage to mob Z1 in how many rounds if they are not tanking?
4) and so on, and so on.
Then compare the numbers of those tests and go for a situation where test 1 fits a predetermined time and tests 2-n work as variables to see how the classes compare to each other. (Can't tell I do tech writing)
There is obviously more, but that would be a rough idea.
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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
I have yet, anywhere, to see a clear definition of this that meets my criteria as a mathematical and computer sciences person.
I have never seen a definition of balance that even vaguely looks like a documented definition. Kindly refrain from flaming.
For example:
Take the following tests.
1) It takes a good group of players X with appropriate equipment a theoretical average of N1 amount of time to take on mob Z1.
2) Class Y1 can survive an average of P1 rounds against mob Z1. In that time it will deal R damage.
3) Class Y1 deals R damage to mob Z1 in how many rounds if they are not tanking?
4) and so on, and so on.
Then compare the numbers of those tests and go for a situation where test 1 fits a predetermined time and tests 2-n work as variables to see how the classes compare to each other. (Can't tell I do tech writing)
There is obviously more, but that would be a rough idea.
------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Absolute balance is impossible on a mud.
In order for balance to be maintained, both forces must be either stagnant (never changing) or have parallel changes which correct each other.
In the case of a mud such as this, the PC's are _always_ growing more powerful (either thru skills, level, equipment or simply class availability). The mobs however, must remain stagnant.
The clincher is this: The mobs must remain stagnant, because while a portion of the players are growing more powerful, a like portion is starting from scratch.
If the mobs are upgraded to balance the current strength of the older players, the newer players will be overwhelmed. And, since players are still growing more powerful, mobs would simply have to be upgraded again, in a few weeks/months. (Broadening the gap between mobs and the new, new players) If every player progressed at exactly the same rate, mobs could be upgraded on scale, to maintain balance.
At this point it becomes apparent (I would think so anyway, perhaps my logic is flawed? :P) that PC's MUST be downgraded in an effort to be nearly balanced. While we can take a group of 8, and walk thru Jot like a sunday stroll, other groups may have difficulty with 15. This is the part where player co-operatoin is required.
If a mob/zone is too difficult for GroupA, which consists of 10 people, they can add more in order to achieve "balance" with that zone. If the same mob/zone is too easy for GroupB, rather than walk thru the zone (in which case you might as well petition "we are too powerful, downgrade us"), they should cut down the size of their group.
A major problem right now is the strength of PC's (well above and beyond anything we've seen before). An average equipped group of 10 can breeze thru Jot and similar zones, which should require 15 (or 10 skilled, well equipped pc's) (For reference: I've been in an 8 person Jot group, two of which were < 40th level, which had no difficulty (we didn't do Thrym))
By NOT taking smaller groups to do some of the easier zones, PC's are asking for more and more downgrades (note: right now the scale is so tilted towards PC's it doesnt matter - harsh downgrades across the board please). Unfortunately, the imms have the difficulty of choosing where that downgrade will strike, AND keep the focus of the mud in mind. (For example, area spells are wacked imho, yet the focus of the mud requires them)
As far as why not add elementalists etc BEFORE making downgrades: If things are WAY too easy right now, imagine the chaos elementalists would add. Would we be able to do that same Jot in a 6 man group, with little difficulty? Elementalists will be a huge increase in already high PC strength.
Hrm, not sure if this makes sense to anybody but me even (wouldnt' be the first time :P) buut, I have nothing better to do until the wife gets dinner done so ramble I shall! (Why does it seem proportional: the more hungry I am, the longer dinner takes? *grumble*)
Shadsteph@hotmail.com
In order for balance to be maintained, both forces must be either stagnant (never changing) or have parallel changes which correct each other.
In the case of a mud such as this, the PC's are _always_ growing more powerful (either thru skills, level, equipment or simply class availability). The mobs however, must remain stagnant.
The clincher is this: The mobs must remain stagnant, because while a portion of the players are growing more powerful, a like portion is starting from scratch.
If the mobs are upgraded to balance the current strength of the older players, the newer players will be overwhelmed. And, since players are still growing more powerful, mobs would simply have to be upgraded again, in a few weeks/months. (Broadening the gap between mobs and the new, new players) If every player progressed at exactly the same rate, mobs could be upgraded on scale, to maintain balance.
At this point it becomes apparent (I would think so anyway, perhaps my logic is flawed? :P) that PC's MUST be downgraded in an effort to be nearly balanced. While we can take a group of 8, and walk thru Jot like a sunday stroll, other groups may have difficulty with 15. This is the part where player co-operatoin is required.
If a mob/zone is too difficult for GroupA, which consists of 10 people, they can add more in order to achieve "balance" with that zone. If the same mob/zone is too easy for GroupB, rather than walk thru the zone (in which case you might as well petition "we are too powerful, downgrade us"), they should cut down the size of their group.
A major problem right now is the strength of PC's (well above and beyond anything we've seen before). An average equipped group of 10 can breeze thru Jot and similar zones, which should require 15 (or 10 skilled, well equipped pc's) (For reference: I've been in an 8 person Jot group, two of which were < 40th level, which had no difficulty (we didn't do Thrym))
By NOT taking smaller groups to do some of the easier zones, PC's are asking for more and more downgrades (note: right now the scale is so tilted towards PC's it doesnt matter - harsh downgrades across the board please). Unfortunately, the imms have the difficulty of choosing where that downgrade will strike, AND keep the focus of the mud in mind. (For example, area spells are wacked imho, yet the focus of the mud requires them)
As far as why not add elementalists etc BEFORE making downgrades: If things are WAY too easy right now, imagine the chaos elementalists would add. Would we be able to do that same Jot in a 6 man group, with little difficulty? Elementalists will be a huge increase in already high PC strength.
Hrm, not sure if this makes sense to anybody but me even (wouldnt' be the first time :P) buut, I have nothing better to do until the wife gets dinner done so ramble I shall! (Why does it seem proportional: the more hungry I am, the longer dinner takes? *grumble*)
Shadsteph@hotmail.com
My response wasn't direct at you actually, was directed to the post just before mine:
<B>
If it is, then why are the changes taking place now? Shouldn't the tweaks begin after all the classes are complete, or are we going to have to face another set of tweaks once elementalists/bards are finished?
</B>
That question is the subject of a topic on the development news.
And this emphatically was *not* a flame. Ask Malacar, but if I flamed someone, they would know it.
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 09-17-2001).]
<B>
If it is, then why are the changes taking place now? Shouldn't the tweaks begin after all the classes are complete, or are we going to have to face another set of tweaks once elementalists/bards are finished?
</B>
That question is the subject of a topic on the development news.
And this emphatically was *not* a flame. Ask Malacar, but if I flamed someone, they would know it.
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 09-17-2001).]
ShadSteph makes some very good points.
I have been watching the so called balancing acts take place over the past several months. It is growning more and more apparent that they are in no way intended to help the player base of the MUD expand. As a player that has been around for a while as a totally casual player, even I am having a difficult time with my highest level character ( a piddly level 35 warrior, which in the mind of many here doesnt even give me the right to speak ) even killing the basic things I used to be able to use for experience. Now with the latest "balances" to both my ability to hit AND my ability to block hits thrown at me, I have successfully been delegated to EXP'ing on mobs that con fairly easy or BELOW! This only serves to accentuate the divide that the higher levels players seem to enjoy over their lower level counter parts. No this is not true of every player, as I have met some truely fantastic folks here who have been very helpful. At this point in time it is sad to say that as a player trying for the first time to achieve higher level characters I honestly feel that the #1 hinderence in this goal is the constant downgrading of players by the gods.
Example: The adjustment to +hit. The explantion given is to just "throw on" more +hit gear. Like the lower level folks just have a ton of +hit gear (or plats) hanging around in backpacks on storage chars.
Most of the players like me (the players who have been here for a long time, but never strived to get high level chars) dont post here, so our voices, concerns and complaints get drown out by the folks who have already achieved level 50.
Flame away on the comments from a lowly 35 warrior who has never achieved level 50.
I have been watching the so called balancing acts take place over the past several months. It is growning more and more apparent that they are in no way intended to help the player base of the MUD expand. As a player that has been around for a while as a totally casual player, even I am having a difficult time with my highest level character ( a piddly level 35 warrior, which in the mind of many here doesnt even give me the right to speak ) even killing the basic things I used to be able to use for experience. Now with the latest "balances" to both my ability to hit AND my ability to block hits thrown at me, I have successfully been delegated to EXP'ing on mobs that con fairly easy or BELOW! This only serves to accentuate the divide that the higher levels players seem to enjoy over their lower level counter parts. No this is not true of every player, as I have met some truely fantastic folks here who have been very helpful. At this point in time it is sad to say that as a player trying for the first time to achieve higher level characters I honestly feel that the #1 hinderence in this goal is the constant downgrading of players by the gods.
Example: The adjustment to +hit. The explantion given is to just "throw on" more +hit gear. Like the lower level folks just have a ton of +hit gear (or plats) hanging around in backpacks on storage chars.
Most of the players like me (the players who have been here for a long time, but never strived to get high level chars) dont post here, so our voices, concerns and complaints get drown out by the folks who have already achieved level 50.
Flame away on the comments from a lowly 35 warrior who has never achieved level 50.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tritian:
<B>ShadSteph makes some very good points.
I have been watching the so called balancing acts take place over the past several months. It is growning more and more apparent that they are in no way intended to help the player base of the MUD expand. As a player that has been around for a while as a totally casual player, even I am having a difficult time with my highest level character ( a piddly level 35 warrior, which in the mind of many here doesnt even give me the right to speak ) even killing the basic things I used to be able to use for experience. Now with the latest "balances" to both my ability to hit AND my ability to block hits thrown at me, I have successfully been delegated to EXP'ing on mobs that con fairly easy or BELOW! This only serves to accentuate the divide that the higher levels players seem to enjoy over their lower level counter parts. No this is not true of every player, as I have met some truely fantastic folks here who have been very helpful. At this point in time it is sad to say that as a player trying for the first time to achieve higher level characters I honestly feel that the #1 hinderence in this goal is the constant downgrading of players by the gods.
Example: The adjustment to +hit. The explantion given is to just "throw on" more +hit gear. Like the lower level folks just have a ton of +hit gear (or plats) hanging around in backpacks on storage chars.
Most of the players like me (the players who have been here for a long time, but never strived to get high level chars) dont post here, so our voices, concerns and complaints get drown out by the folks who have already achieved level 50.
Flame away on the comments from a lowly 35 warrior who has never achieved level 50.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Um... shadsteph posted nearly the polar opposite of what you said. And you agree with him? *boggle*
<B>ShadSteph makes some very good points.
I have been watching the so called balancing acts take place over the past several months. It is growning more and more apparent that they are in no way intended to help the player base of the MUD expand. As a player that has been around for a while as a totally casual player, even I am having a difficult time with my highest level character ( a piddly level 35 warrior, which in the mind of many here doesnt even give me the right to speak ) even killing the basic things I used to be able to use for experience. Now with the latest "balances" to both my ability to hit AND my ability to block hits thrown at me, I have successfully been delegated to EXP'ing on mobs that con fairly easy or BELOW! This only serves to accentuate the divide that the higher levels players seem to enjoy over their lower level counter parts. No this is not true of every player, as I have met some truely fantastic folks here who have been very helpful. At this point in time it is sad to say that as a player trying for the first time to achieve higher level characters I honestly feel that the #1 hinderence in this goal is the constant downgrading of players by the gods.
Example: The adjustment to +hit. The explantion given is to just "throw on" more +hit gear. Like the lower level folks just have a ton of +hit gear (or plats) hanging around in backpacks on storage chars.
Most of the players like me (the players who have been here for a long time, but never strived to get high level chars) dont post here, so our voices, concerns and complaints get drown out by the folks who have already achieved level 50.
Flame away on the comments from a lowly 35 warrior who has never achieved level 50.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Um... shadsteph posted nearly the polar opposite of what you said. And you agree with him? *boggle*
-
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tritian:
Now with the latest "balances" to both my ability to hit AND my ability to block hits thrown at me, I have successfully been delegated to EXP'ing on mobs that con fairly easy or BELOW! </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe you should try forming up a group.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>Example: The adjustment to +hit. The explantion given is to just "throw on" more +hit gear.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That was NOT the explanation given. I also object to the tone of your post which seemed to imply that all of the high-level players are out to keep the low-level players down, which is (for the most part) not true. I have tried to explain time and again that the staff has a "vision" and that it might be nice if players trusted us instead of venting about every little change that goes into the game.
But in case it's not clear, let me point out that there was a HUGE -bug- in the defensive skills, as was pointed out in the news! This was not a "balance" issue. Players were NEVER meant to be able to tank (or for that matter, solo) that well at high levels, but a BUG in the code was causing it. This was not a downgrade or balancing, this was a bug fix.
--D2
Now with the latest "balances" to both my ability to hit AND my ability to block hits thrown at me, I have successfully been delegated to EXP'ing on mobs that con fairly easy or BELOW! </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe you should try forming up a group.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>Example: The adjustment to +hit. The explantion given is to just "throw on" more +hit gear.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That was NOT the explanation given. I also object to the tone of your post which seemed to imply that all of the high-level players are out to keep the low-level players down, which is (for the most part) not true. I have tried to explain time and again that the staff has a "vision" and that it might be nice if players trusted us instead of venting about every little change that goes into the game.
But in case it's not clear, let me point out that there was a HUGE -bug- in the defensive skills, as was pointed out in the news! This was not a "balance" issue. Players were NEVER meant to be able to tank (or for that matter, solo) that well at high levels, but a BUG in the code was causing it. This was not a downgrade or balancing, this was a bug fix.
--D2
ShadSteph:
Absolute Balance is possible on a MUD, you just have to have 1 char, 1 life and strictly balance to prevent cheating.
D2:
It is very difficult for people to trust what they can't see and don't understand, at least when it comes to other humans.
We as the playerbase don't know what you mean by balance, we don't know what your ultimate goal is, and so all we see are downgrades and bug fixes. We see the final results, but we don't have enough coherent information to piece together what the Big Picture(tm) is.
The explanation for most downgrades I've seen so far is that something was "too powerful" or that it is preparation for an incoming class (Elementalist or Rangers).
From the point of view of a coder and a tech writer in RL, I can see what you are trying to do. I may or may not agree with it, but I see some need for witholding the final goal.
From the point of view of a player it is very difficult for me to see why the changes needed to be put into place now when Elementalists and (the final version of) Rangers are not in yet and there is no *released* timetable for when they should be.
All I see, as a player, is someone asking me to trust them that these are for the Good of the MUD(tm). Thats more difficult than it would seem.
------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Absolute Balance is possible on a MUD, you just have to have 1 char, 1 life and strictly balance to prevent cheating.
D2:
It is very difficult for people to trust what they can't see and don't understand, at least when it comes to other humans.
We as the playerbase don't know what you mean by balance, we don't know what your ultimate goal is, and so all we see are downgrades and bug fixes. We see the final results, but we don't have enough coherent information to piece together what the Big Picture(tm) is.
The explanation for most downgrades I've seen so far is that something was "too powerful" or that it is preparation for an incoming class (Elementalist or Rangers).
From the point of view of a coder and a tech writer in RL, I can see what you are trying to do. I may or may not agree with it, but I see some need for witholding the final goal.
From the point of view of a player it is very difficult for me to see why the changes needed to be put into place now when Elementalists and (the final version of) Rangers are not in yet and there is no *released* timetable for when they should be.
All I see, as a player, is someone asking me to trust them that these are for the Good of the MUD(tm). Thats more difficult than it would seem.
------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Here is how I see it, based on past experience, board posts, and some very long conversations with various people on the mud.
ShadSteph had some EXCELLENT points about mob stagnation and player expansion. However, obviously not all players advance at the same rate. The way I see it, there are three strata of players on the mud right now... clique players (Folur and Dornax's group, the ONE evil group), casual players, and newbies.
We're at a point now where Folurites and casual players are starting to share zones. The problem is, zones like Jot are too easy for the decked out Folurites and too hard for struggling casual players. The staff sees the Folurites blast through Jot with 4 people in 10 minutes and go on a downgrading rampage. With each successive downgrade... hitroll, tank skills, group heal... the casual players find it harder and harder to keep up. There's a LOT of talk lately about all the wealth being in the hands of the very few, more than I've ever seen in Sojourns past. That's another matter entirely, but suffice to say, global downgrades are being implemented because of the success of the few.
The staff sees a couple of enterprising players doing solo spectres, and they blast holy word and silence. I assume a handful of players have found a way to use PWB again, because now you can't refresh it. The combat system got nerfed... a handful of people with 35 damage roll now have to swap their skull earrings for tiny goldens, while half the mud can't hit what they're aiming at anymore.
This is not a flame to the staff. Please keep that in mind
Continuing.
The solution that presents itself to me is complicated, but effective. The first step is to stop implementing global downgrades because a few people are too powerful. Restore gheal, there's no reason it should be *****. Work on the combat engine so that players can hit mobs their own level without 50k plat worth of equipment. Resist the urge to nuke spells because a handful of level 31 clerics have found a way to solo for five levels or so.
Secondly, the area makers should realize that some zones that used to be godly difficult are now commonplace. A well assembled group of 15 should be able to handle Jot, Brass, or TF in under two hours with very few deaths. These are the zones that the casual players play in. Demi, vault, crypts. These are not LEVEL 50 ONLY!! zones anymore. They're more like, 35-45. Save the death procs, the !bash !stun casters, and the truly crippling effects for zones like Manscorpions or Avernus, where casual players won't have to face them.
The gist of this is, when you see a group power through a zone you once thought was badass, please keep the nerf bat in the closet. So what if Lazzraxxuum can run Brass in an hour? Who cares. Rather than punishing John Q. Newleader, just make Avernus that much tougher. Concentrate on making some truly difficult zones, and let players enjoy their holy words and group heals in Jot and vault. Besides, if you make Tiamat's lair hard enough, is it REALLY going to matter if a cleric can paralyze level 30 mobs with holy word?
- Ragorn
ShadSteph had some EXCELLENT points about mob stagnation and player expansion. However, obviously not all players advance at the same rate. The way I see it, there are three strata of players on the mud right now... clique players (Folur and Dornax's group, the ONE evil group), casual players, and newbies.
We're at a point now where Folurites and casual players are starting to share zones. The problem is, zones like Jot are too easy for the decked out Folurites and too hard for struggling casual players. The staff sees the Folurites blast through Jot with 4 people in 10 minutes and go on a downgrading rampage. With each successive downgrade... hitroll, tank skills, group heal... the casual players find it harder and harder to keep up. There's a LOT of talk lately about all the wealth being in the hands of the very few, more than I've ever seen in Sojourns past. That's another matter entirely, but suffice to say, global downgrades are being implemented because of the success of the few.
The staff sees a couple of enterprising players doing solo spectres, and they blast holy word and silence. I assume a handful of players have found a way to use PWB again, because now you can't refresh it. The combat system got nerfed... a handful of people with 35 damage roll now have to swap their skull earrings for tiny goldens, while half the mud can't hit what they're aiming at anymore.
This is not a flame to the staff. Please keep that in mind
Continuing.The solution that presents itself to me is complicated, but effective. The first step is to stop implementing global downgrades because a few people are too powerful. Restore gheal, there's no reason it should be *****. Work on the combat engine so that players can hit mobs their own level without 50k plat worth of equipment. Resist the urge to nuke spells because a handful of level 31 clerics have found a way to solo for five levels or so.
Secondly, the area makers should realize that some zones that used to be godly difficult are now commonplace. A well assembled group of 15 should be able to handle Jot, Brass, or TF in under two hours with very few deaths. These are the zones that the casual players play in. Demi, vault, crypts. These are not LEVEL 50 ONLY!! zones anymore. They're more like, 35-45. Save the death procs, the !bash !stun casters, and the truly crippling effects for zones like Manscorpions or Avernus, where casual players won't have to face them.
The gist of this is, when you see a group power through a zone you once thought was badass, please keep the nerf bat in the closet. So what if Lazzraxxuum can run Brass in an hour? Who cares. Rather than punishing John Q. Newleader, just make Avernus that much tougher. Concentrate on making some truly difficult zones, and let players enjoy their holy words and group heals in Jot and vault. Besides, if you make Tiamat's lair hard enough, is it REALLY going to matter if a cleric can paralyze level 30 mobs with holy word?
- Ragorn
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