Feedback on changes to Hit...

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gnerble
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Feedback on changes to Hit...

Postby gnerble » Sun Sep 09, 2001 7:25 am

Just did a few tests on some Tower/CC mobs to see how the new changed are affecting me.

Background:
45 Rogue, offense 81, 1h piercing 91, circle 88, + hitroll is 36

I was circling every other round or so

Undead Boatkeeper (level 60, priest/warr?)
164 attacks, 110 hits, 54 misses

Golden Warrior (level 55?, warrior)
144 attacks, 103 hits, 41 misses

Large Warrior (level 55?, warrior)
182 attacks, 112 hits, 70 misses

Archmage (level 55?, mage)
173 attacks, 126 hits, 47 misses

Black Magician (level 50?, mage)
116 attacks, 100 hits, 16 misses

Seems like the warrior mobs are a lot better at avoiding attacks (as they should be)

Also seems a little silly for me to have 36 hit, but I know that I'm not a warrior class.

I'm sure you keep a record of this stuff, but just fyi =)

Image
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Postby Nilan » Sun Sep 09, 2001 9:55 am

Well my skills are mastered and i cant hit the side of a barn with 34 hit.

Whats up with that????
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Postby rylan » Sun Sep 09, 2001 5:40 pm

Heh.. nods.. it was taking us substantially longer to everything last night due tot he lowered hitroll.

I think it was cranked downa bit too much, since the hitters in our group with 32+ hitroll were missing around 1/3 their attacks.
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Postby Todrael » Sun Sep 09, 2001 5:51 pm

Too many rangers, anti's, paladins that would have otherwise been nukers. Evils aren't seeing much of a change, as we depend on the 3+ invokers, 2+ necro's/liches, 3+ psi's per group to deal the damage. Roll up those alts!

-Todrael
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Postby asamoth » Sun Sep 09, 2001 7:10 pm

or alternativly, one of you rangers could ff =) I know I know, rangers cast? whats that?

Or bring along some ff'ing mage. You know this would actually make that spell useful past 20ish if even.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:10 am

remember, it was effected on both sides pc and npc, meaning we get beatdown less! also meaning casters (like me) can nuke longer Image
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Postby izarek » Mon Sep 10, 2001 2:01 am

I was gonna make this a separate topic, but hopefully the staff will notice this post and answer my question...

What is the reasoning/goal behind the reduction in the effectiveness of +hit?

My concern is thus: Hitters are already an accessory class (especially rangers, since their only other skill is to litter the mud with wood carvings and dead rats). Obviously hitters are hit the hardest by this change (no pun intended). If their role is de-emphasized further, where does it put them? Will their role in dmg be further picked up by shamen/druids/etc who can stun/blind in addition to significant area dmg?

Or, are there plans to prevent this? Will bless be upgraded, to actually provide a significant bonus to +hit? Is faerie fire or stumble gonna make a difference? If there are plans, thats great. But please make sure you dont make an already useless class unplayable.

Izzy
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Postby rylan » Mon Sep 10, 2001 2:09 am

Actually we haven't seen any noticable differance in mobs hitrate. Big mobs still spank the tank around with crits and hit a lot. It sure is noticable on PCs though.
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Postby Dinggle » Mon Sep 10, 2001 2:19 am

illusionist spell 'scarlet outline' already beat out faeriefire in terms of making an NPC hittable.

give it to chanters too please! *beg* *whine*
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Postby Sylvos » Mon Sep 10, 2001 4:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by izarek:
<B>
My concern is thus: Hitters are already an accessory class (especially rangers, since their only other skill is to litter the mud with wood carvings and dead rats). Obviously hitters are hit the hardest by this change (no pun intended). If their role is de-emphasized further, where does it put them? Will their role in dmg be further picked up by shamen/druids/etc who can stun/blind in addition to significant area dmg?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually Izzy, one of the evils told us exactly how it's going to be solved. By use of more invokers - a class which is already in pretty short supply. The alternative is already there - now it'll start being used.

And as for the effect on us poor rangers, I believe the stock answer will suffice.

"Rangers aren't a complete class, and won't be complete until range code is put in"

Bleh, frustrated

-Sylvos


[This message has been edited by Sylvos (edited 09-10-2001).]
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Postby rylan » Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:37 pm

With the current severe shortage of goodie invokers, I don't see the slack being picked up for several months.
If we're lucky, we have 1 invoker in our zoning groups, and thats maybe 10% of the time.

With how some mobs shrug off stuff, you still need people who can hit reliably.. 60-70% hitrate doesn't cut it, and is kinda sad coming from high lvl hitters.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Sep 10, 2001 2:15 pm

Don't forget about spell feedback. Bringing more vokers along isn't really the best option imho. Rangers/rogues should be able to hit things, it's kind of our job.

Sarvis
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Postby Todrael » Mon Sep 10, 2001 3:20 pm

Not just invokers! Psionicists, necromancers, and liches all deal a hefty amount of spell damage too. Having 3-4 level 48+ invokers in one group, 2 with inferno, really owns most mobs when you throw in the psi, lich and necro with 6 total wraiths. Most evils have agreed that although this change sucks for hitters, our zone groups are better as a result. We've also agreed this really screws over most goodie zone groups.

Solution? Level those invokers, necros and druids some more. Help them with their quests. This is only a problem as long as ya'll don't play a voker. I'm actually really surprised at the sore lack of invokers on the goodie side. I heard you don't even have meteor swarm yet?! *boggle*

-Todrael
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Postby Guest » Mon Sep 10, 2001 3:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by izarek:
<B>What is the reasoning/goal behind the reduction in the effectiveness of +hit?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This goes back to some of the melee imbalances that Shevarash mentioned in a post in the Development Notes forum. There has been some discussion (staff and player alike) over the last few weeks that melee is currently too strong. One of the ideas we have is to make it a tad more difficult to hit, as you have noticed, so that PCs will be forced to sacrifice a little damroll for hitroll.

Obviously, a better approach is to directly reduce the amount of damage PCs are doing, but unfortunately we don't currently have a working knob for that.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">My concern is thus: Hitters are already an accessory class (especially rangers, since their only other skill is to litter the mud with wood carvings and dead rats).</font>


I would say that the number of players playing these "accessory classes" suggests that they are not as accessory as you think. But don't worry. We have no plans to eviscerate hitters. All balance changes like this are not done on a whim - it takes a bit of discussion about impacts before we go ahead and do something. To the extent that a corresponding shift needs to be made to spellpower, we will consider it, but only after careful evaluation of this change and the potential impacts of that change.

--D2
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Postby Ensis » Mon Sep 10, 2001 4:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>Not just invokers! Psionicists, necromancers, and liches all deal a hefty amount of spell damage too. Having 3-4 level 48+ invokers in one group, 2 with inferno, really owns most mobs when you throw in the psi, lich and necro with 6 total wraiths. Most evils have agreed that although this change sucks for hitters, our zone groups are better as a result. We've also agreed this really screws over most goodie zone groups.

-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As much as i hate to take a downgrade, i gotta agree with Todrael. I've played my paladin from 1-38, mostly solo, and when in groups the standard formula has been tanks, hitters, and the occasional caster. I think this will motivate groups to help out the lower casters so they can have some more damage output. I think its a good start, but could maybe use a little more tweaking. I think the 30% hitrate could use a lil boost.

-E
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Postby Jethrus » Mon Sep 10, 2001 4:44 pm

My opinion is and always will be, the best way to fix a problem of inbalance isn't go lowering every class till they are all less useful, but instead help those that need it. The last mud that I played on used the philosphy of imbalance=downgrade. Within 1 year of the downgrades our players on at 1 time went from 200+ to barely 100, and within another year you would be lucky to find 20 people on at a time. My point is this, people come on to the mud to enjoy themselves and have fun w/ their characters. If those characters keep getting downgraded the fun aspect becomes lessened and people tend to leave. I know that the gods have put alot of work into balancing classes and have done alot with coding of zones recently. Kudos on that, all the new proc weapons and such add alot of diversity and entertainment to the game.
Also, I think that the lack of diversity is not necesarily a reflection on the usefulness of classes. I personally would rather play a hitter class than a caster regardless of which is doing more damage. That being said, its annoying to land 50% of my attacks at level 47 with offense and 1 slashing mastered and a 30+ hitroll... I know that these changes were thought out and considered, but maybe give some bonus for mastered skills or higher level? Keep rangers/rogues/warriors enjoying their class.
Jethrus *afraid to see monks w/ current code*
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Postby taelin » Mon Sep 10, 2001 5:00 pm

Hey gang-
I acknowledge that all things need to be done for balance. I've always understood that some changes needed to be made to each of the classes to achieve a healthy balance. Unfortunately, you say there isn't a balance knob for the damage output of hitting and therefore you need to adjust it some other way.
I can accept the need and the decision to make hitters deal less damage. However, using hitroll as an adjustment is far from a proper solution. Lets look at the health of the entire game for a momment, not just the level 40+ game. I recognize that many decisions are made for level 40+ gameplay issues, however one major concern on the mud is player base. Hitroll eq isn't readily accessable to all members of the community and yet this change is globally effective.
Essentially to fix an imbalance in late game damage output you have rescoped the entire curve for the hitting classes. This not only creates a more difficult gameplay for those classes, as might be desired, but it also causes player stratefication. Hitters of lower levels are no longer even remotely useful to a group and therefore are more often abandoned to flounder with newly increased difficulty.
Often discouraged these players will turn away from the mud before trying new classes as they chose what they chose for their reasons and have invested in those choices. Theres nothing more depressing for a leveling hitter than not being able to hit anything his friends are fighting.

Lets look for a different solution. Spellcasters fail spells they recently aquired, they even have some mobs shrug spells... but once cast a spell hits the target. I can see a mob parrying, dodging, blocking or otherwise avoiding a master swordsman's blow... but the master isnt going to simply miss his target en masse.
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Postby izarek » Mon Sep 10, 2001 5:26 pm

D2, thanks for the reply.

Btw, I'm all for using invokers, necros and such. I'm friends with a few of these and love to group with them. As long as you're not planning on wiping out my favorite class, that's good enough for me.

I'll still put int my request to make bless grant higher +hit. Perhaps dependant on skill, capping at +3 at high lvls?

Izzy

[This message has been edited by izarek (edited 09-10-2001).]
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Postby belleshel » Mon Sep 10, 2001 6:06 pm

Before any post about changes, folks always should remember any change that goes into the game is done to help the game.
Granted some changes are wrong, but no immortal wants to spend massive amounts of time on a game to see it fail or not live up to its billing. They also have to keep in mind long term playablitily, balance when building on this game, some things players rarely consider when complaining (society of instant gratificationers)

That being said..... Image
Level 50, all skills used 99, 35 hitroll (obviously I've already been sacrificing dam for hitroll), and I have noticed a big difference in my hitting % from this change.
To hit like I was (if thats even possible now) it looks like I will need between a 40-42 hitroll, which seems a tad excessive at this level Image
As hitters we might just have to get used to hitting less frequently. This will obviously make casters more desirable then they are currently which I think is a good thing with the overload of hitters and lack of invokers. Anyway we will have to see how this pans out, no reason to get in a huff before its been in a few days to test. We players are a surprisingly adaptable group that can get around most obstacles thrown at us.
Belle

Izarek ever think that by continuously posting how useless rangers (you) are, people believe the hype, and you find it harder to get groups? Image...There are a ton of high level rangers, we are very useful if you maximize what the class offers.
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Postby Sylvos » Mon Sep 10, 2001 6:30 pm

Nods Belle - I've always gotten a huge thrill out of playing a ranger and there is so much we can offer. The only other class that I can think of that is as, if not more versatile than a ranger, is shamans. There is something to be said for being a jack of many trades.

All the same though, you have to admit it's fun to mock the forests of discarded wood shavings that are often left behind by us. Image

Gypsy Sylvos - horsethief of BGR
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Postby Nokie » Mon Sep 10, 2001 7:06 pm

If you think needing a 42 hitroll is baf Belleshel, you have no idcea how much it hurts being a rogue. Rogues have a worse thac0 table than rangers or warriors, thus we need even more hitroll than you guys!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by belleshel:
<B>Level 50, all skills used 99, 35 hitroll (obviously I've already been sacrificing dam for hitroll), and I have noticed a big difference in my hitting % from this change.
To hit like I was (if thats even possible now) it looks like I will need between a 40-42 hitroll, which seems a tad excessive at this level ;)</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

------------------
Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
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Postby cherzra » Mon Sep 10, 2001 7:16 pm

Why make it so that everyone needs 30 hitroll or higher to hit anything steadily?

If this change was meant to make mobs hit less, then why does it affect players too? Warriors and probably rogues/rangers/antis/whatever already sacrifice hit/dam eq for hp eq, because they NEED to. After this change, mobs will STILL hit players all the time, but players will hit mobs less. Fun it is to see 'You miss X with your slash' indeed.

I mean really. One group likes to bring invokers/psis and necros, while another other group may like to bring rangers and rogues. What's the big deal? Let everyone play it their own way. What's next, hard coded group limits on how many of a class is allowed in a group?
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Postby kaitos » Mon Sep 10, 2001 7:20 pm

It seems the melee knob was turned a little too far.
49th ranger with 97 offense/1h s
Hit roll: 40
%hit: 75.8% after 3 rounds of clearing the pirate ship

That seems a little much. I understand that you might want to lower the damage melee classes are doing but causing us to double our tohit and still miss is not right. Please reduce the change to something manageable.
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Postby izarek » Mon Sep 10, 2001 7:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by belleshel:
<B>Before any post about changes, folks always should remember any change that goes into the game is done to help the game.

Izarek ever think that by continuously posting how useless rangers (you) are, people believe the hype, and you find it harder to get groups? Image...There are a ton of high level rangers, we are very useful if you maximize what the class offers.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ouch, Belle. That really hurt. I really respect ya as a player, but that statement was quite harsh. Ya know, of course I realize they're trying to balance the game. I'm just trying to let them know my concerns.

As for my so called complaining, yeah i've posted alot about rangers. Nowhere in my post above did I complain about my grouping problems. I just wanted to see where the staff was going with this change. Most of the time I try to be constructive and have posted *alot* of ideas on ways to make rangers *useful* to groups or to improve the class (not necessarily more powerful). It hasn't all been in vain. It's a minor skill, but unless I'm pulling an Al Gore, I posted the woodcarving idea and that was implemented. I try real hard to be thoughtful and constructive in my feedback. Why are ideas and feedback met with such harsh backlashes?

As for making people believe the hype, you might want to take a look at your own actions first. Just yesterday you replied to a grouping request by me with a tell stating that we need more warriors, enchanters, and clerics...not rangers. Does that seem like hype to you?

Izzy
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Postby Laxlez » Mon Sep 10, 2001 7:42 pm

As a 36 rogue, what I am most worried about now is levelling.. I already couldn't solo anything that was worth any EXP.. and now I can't hit anything that I might be doing in a group. I have 20hit/14dam and I could hit stuff on the Ship half the time which was enough to make me seem useful. Now that I can't hit the mobs, why would anyone want me in the group? I feel that I have a set of EQ that is about right for my level..

Unfortunately, I don't have 30+hit and I won't have 30+hit for a long while.. If I was an alternate of someone already 45+, I could have 30+hit because I'd have the EQ.. or if I was already high enough level to be asked to zone, then I could get the EQ to hit.. Now, I don't know what to do..

It seems to me that a change like this just
a) makes it harder for newbies to level
b) places all of the emphasis on EQ EQ EQ

I'll probably still be able to get into EXP groups and level.. but it'd be nice to actually contribute something to the group..

-Laxlez
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Postby belleshel » Mon Sep 10, 2001 7:47 pm

What Ideas of yours were met with harsh backlash from me? Image You have posted previously about not getting into many groups because of what you feel is the rangers 'uselessness'. And I've continued to try to convince you to use the skills we are givin to become a very useful player as rangers can be. When you asked to group the other day, I was actually solo and AFK the warrior/cleric/enchanter comment was just a subtle hint that if you current class seems to be causing you frustration, that another might be more appropriate. Constructive comments and opinions to the staff are great but saying things like:
"But please make sure you dont make an already useless class unplayable." really doesn't help.
Belle thinking the knob needs to be turned only 1/2 what it was Image
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Postby izarek » Mon Sep 10, 2001 8:12 pm

Sorry for the misunderstanding Belle. Things like tone are hard to judge with text. And you're right about exploring other classes. I'm doing just that. Well, as much as boredom will allow ;P

Izzy
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Postby Guest » Mon Sep 10, 2001 8:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>Why make it so that everyone needs 30 hitroll or higher to hit anything steadily?

If this change was meant to make mobs hit less, then why does it affect players too?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who said it was made to make mobs hit less?

It was made to address a perceived imbalance in the melee engine, NOT to influence what balance of classes people take in a group. There will probably be several more tweaks like this until we are happy with the balance.

As for the suggestion (made by someone else) that this will hurt low to midlevels more, it's simply not true - this was not a fixed cut, but a percentage cut. So it affects all players at all levels about equally.

Sometimes, I know it's hard, but you need to have faith in us and trust us. We have a grand picture of the MUD, which we can't always share with you. I know changes like this can be difficult to swallow, because they are perceived as "downgrades", but they are designed to bring things back into balance, to restore a level of challenge to the game that is not quite where it should be atm, and to pave the way for elementalists and bards. So please give the changes a try for a few days and remember that you have a group of extremely dedicated staff who have literally pored countless hours into this game. The last thing we want to do is nuke it into the ground.

--D2
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Postby Wobb » Mon Sep 10, 2001 9:09 pm

Personally, I thought it was hard to hit before. Now it's definately too hard.

I will admit that I do not know what components of the "melee engine" were out of whack, but now it seems more out of whack.

Again I question the motive based on the admin's concept of the "quintessential group". A group of hitters is going to be pretty useless now. Add this onto the UBER shrug that demons get and we have groups spending hours to kill fewer mobs. Is that the goal? To slow us down? I won't bother going back through and stating previous examples but I must say that every change on this mud to date has been toward some goal of crafting this mud for the hardcore "I can play 24/7 mudder."

Guys, check your playerbase. I'll play either way, but not for long if I have to tell my wife, "sorry hon, it now takes 7 hours to kill yan"

Wobb
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Postby Zrax » Mon Sep 10, 2001 9:19 pm

at least they didnt give the mobs flankblock and glowing crimson daggers, then we would all be in big big trouble.
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Mon Sep 10, 2001 9:46 pm

Sorry if this post sounds offensive....


Instead of downgrading equipment again, this time you just downed hitting. It seems like the same old story over again. On the evil side, casters are already the majority and more then a few (3) warriors and a rogue in a group is not looked on favorably. instead of downgrading hitting, damage across the board, spells and melee should have been downgraded. Casters (at least on the evil side) still do 80%+ of the damage while zoning.

Good to know, that tanks that had a chance to do some damage were made even more into meat shields.

Gromikazer starts collecting hitpoint equipment, because he as been delegated to do nothing but stand in front of mobs.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Sep 10, 2001 10:03 pm

"04/10/01 Combat Tweaks/Fixes
- Adjusted Bodyslam to reduce lag a round for failure, and
increased chance to stun if you succeed.
- Achieved melee balance! How? Through extensive combat testing
of warriors in controlled battles with some longtime tanking
experienced players, using the battle stat reporting system and
the master control knobs. Lower level fighter classes are now
hitting at a rate of around 50%, and progress up to 85% at high
levels with high hitroll and high skills. Critical hits happen
2% of the time, with +1% per 10 points Str above 100, and do
2.5 to 3 times damage when you land one (a nice perk)! The big
categories that affect thac0 are Skill, Hitroll, Enemy Agility,
and Enemy AC, with Class, Level, Enemy Agility, and other modifiers
less so. Some races like Elves, Drow, Halflings, and Gnomes get
a nice bonus from dex. There is still decent variance in the
formulas to allow for good and bad fights, but consistant within
a range for your level. All in all the balance looks good, we
will continue to refine it in the weeks to come." - <a href=http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000017.html>Miax</a>


So why, then, is the melee system suddenly out of balance? What changed?

And it will hurt lowbies and mid level characters more because they don't have the same access to eq. If Belleshel needs 2 more hitroll she can get a group together and go do whatever zone the Gauntlets of +2 More Hit Than Those Gloves. If I need two more hitroll it means weeks of searching for quests, or saving up plats to by some crappy +hit gauntlets.

<i>"I know changes
like this can be difficult to swallow, because they are perceived as "downgrades","</i>

These changes aren't percieved as downgrades, the ARE downgrades.

from Dictionary.com:

down·grade (doungrd)
n.

1.A descending slope, as in a road.
2.A turn or trend downward.
3.A decline, as in fortune, status, or condition: a neighborhood on the downgrade.

You guys have definately turned the hitroll knob downward, as in definition #2. Image

I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again... stop constantly making minute changes to try and balance the mud until everything is in place. How can you balance rangers and rogues when they aren't even a complete class? How can changing melee damage balance elementalists and bards when those classes are either unimplemented or badly incomplete? Get everything added to the mud, _then_ see if melee damage is too much...

Sarvis

(I'd probably have worded this better if I wasn't running late for class, so sorry if it sounds harsh... gotta go!)
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Postby rylan » Mon Sep 10, 2001 10:21 pm

Oddly enough, this change lets my lowbie warrior alt solo mobs 3-5 levels higher than I used to, since they hit me slightly less. :P

Of course I stacked a bunch of spare +hit eq on him. chuckle
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Postby Zrax » Mon Sep 10, 2001 10:37 pm

Strangely enough i actually agree that a downgrade of some sort was needed, the amount of zones that have been done this early in a wipe is pretty overwhelming. Things are too easy the way they are. However, i dont think that downgrading just hitter classes will save the day, gromikazer is right, the casters are what do the damage, with the exception of the big shrugging mobs, which are about the only worthy fights we have had.
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Postby Kegor » Mon Sep 10, 2001 10:44 pm

I think it would be more painless.. maybe a little more time consuming.. but who knows.. to just upgrade all the big fight mobs. Thrym, Padashaw, Sultan, gatehouses, Loki... the list goes on and on. Why not just make level 50-60 mobs harder 1 by 1 and add elementalists based on these new challenges... that seems easier to me than pissing off pc's with downgrades. Plus with groups existing how they are already.. there has been lots of talk of mobs and fights being too easy already... *shrug* I just don't see downgrading pc's as the answer.. make the mobs harder.. they gunna need it anyways.

-Jaznolg
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Postby Blung » Mon Sep 10, 2001 11:05 pm

Would I rather wear +hit/dam and miss most of the time or wear +hps eqs and look like a true meatshield. After last nite in brass. I think I'm better off with +hps eq. Nothing like tanking all of Padashaw room. Yup, real Meatshield.
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 10, 2001 11:40 pm

Once again it comes down to the philosophical question of who should be dealing damage in a group. Should damage come primarily from melee or spells?

I assumed before the mud went up that invokers would be doing most of the damage. My objection to this was that a naked invoker could do just as much damage as a well equipped one. Another way of stating this objection is that damage output would not reflect the skill (as measured by equipment worn) of the caster.

I was wrong, invokers aren't the primary damage dealers because for some reason or another there aren't many of them. But generally speaking, it seems that in most groups, casters in general still provide the overwhelming amount of damage. This can be explained by the upgraded damage output of other casting classes such as druids and shaman.

I think this explains how in only a few months since a pwipe, all the high level zones on this mud are done regularly except Tiamat, and err South Forest. Image When everyone was poorly equipped, zones were still doable because caster damage was not effected by the poor equipment.

This leads us to the current problem which is that the mud is now too easy for high levelers who are now pretty well equipped (in such a short time too).

Downgrading melee damage is simply inconsequential. Even if hitter damage were dropped by a whopping 50%, I dont think that it would significantly change the ease of doing zones. At most it might slow down the pace of doing zones because casters will need a fuller mem before fights.. but I doubt it will make those fights any more difficult.

We all want the mud to be challenging. I don't think the answer, however, is downgrading the damage output of classes that already do a marginal amount of damage against a single opponent at a time. Area damage should be the first target, and my suggestion is that all area spells in the game be downgraded by a certain percentage.. say 25%. After a couple weeks of seeing how that works, perhaps the number could be tweaked, and other balancing issues dealt with.

Corth
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Tue Sep 11, 2001 1:07 am

*shudder* Agreeing with corth, is like stabbing myself in the eye. Just one difference though, downgrade spell damaged 10-15% at first.. you'll notice the difference...
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Postby Vandic » Tue Sep 11, 2001 1:21 am

Since it seems warriors are gonna be scrounging for +hit stuff, how about ya throw us a bone and let us use ruby rings?

-VHF
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Postby gnerble » Tue Sep 11, 2001 2:50 am

Anyone tried fighting any dragons since this came in? With their shrug, it should be exciting!
Image
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Postby Elseenas » Wed Sep 12, 2001 2:08 am

I'm going to agree with Corth here as well.

Damage is done by casters. I don't know what your goal is, but this *is* a downgrade to a set of classes that are not fully implemented and and/or not primary anyways.


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Postby Guest » Wed Sep 12, 2001 2:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>"04/10/01 Combat Tweaks/Fixes
- Adjusted Bodyslam to reduce lag a round for failure, and
increased chance to stun if you succeed.
- Achieved melee balance! How? Through extensive combat testing
of warriors in controlled battles with some longtime tanking
experienced players, using the battle stat reporting system and
the master control knobs. Lower level fighter classes are now
hitting at a rate of around 50%, and progress up to 85% at high
levels with high hitroll and high skills. Critical hits happen
2% of the time, with +1% per 10 points Str above 100, and do
2.5 to 3 times damage when you land one (a nice perk)! The big
categories that affect thac0 are Skill, Hitroll, Enemy Agility,
and Enemy AC, with Class, Level, Enemy Agility, and other modifiers
less so. Some races like Elves, Drow, Halflings, and Gnomes get
a nice bonus from dex. There is still decent variance in the
formulas to allow for good and bad fights, but consistant within
a range for your level. All in all the balance looks good, we
will continue to refine it in the weeks to come." - <a href=http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000017.html>Miax</a>


So why, then, is the melee system suddenly out of balance? What changed?

[snip]

Sarvis

(I'd probably have worded this better if I wasn't running late for class, so sorry if it sounds harsh... gotta go!)</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sarvis, the change was that we went into Beta for 4+ months and saw that there was in fact some issues. The quote you are pulling is from April, before we had an open Beta and fully saw what would happen. There was also changes made after April that affected balance. As D2 posted above, give the changes some time (they have been in what, 4 days now?) and if we find that they are too harsh, it will be adjusted.

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Postby Treladian » Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:03 am

Gnerble: We've taken on a few dragons since the changes went in. It's still quite possible to take them down, but it takes longer to do it. I can't specify how much longer (Loki's pet dragon isn't quite as tough as Jabberwock), but there are a lot of rounds where I've seen the following

You miss an oversized lizard with your slash.
You miss an oversized lizard with your slash.
You miss an oversized lizard with your slash.
You miss an oversized lizard with your slash.
You miss an oversized lizard with your slash.

and a lot of this as well

You miss an oversized lizard with your slash.
You miss an oversized lizard with your slash.
You miss an oversized lizard with your slash.
You barely slash an oversized lizard.

Against Jabber, from my perspective it came down to the fact that our ghealer was on top of things during the fight, we had good druids (both clerics got frozen at the beginning of the right) and we had dscales.

For other fights, spell damage was already doing a huge chunk of the damage before the melee downgrade in our groups with 3 or 4 well equipped hitters and no invokers, with mobs being dropped into few wounds from areas tossed by druids, shamans, and sometimes a necro by the time we finished the first mob in a room. Since the mob conditions can cover a huge range of hitpoints, I can't tell the exact proportions of what damage is coming from what but looking at my hitrate even after swapping some dam for hit, I can say that this has been more than just a "slight" adjustment for me.
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Postby Eadgydd » Thu Sep 13, 2001 5:22 am

As far as I can see, the only people with a real reason to complain about the hitroll changes are rangers and rogues. Warriors and paladins never needed as much hitroll as rangers and rogues, and they can tank, so even if they aren't hitting as much they are still useful to a group. But hitting is literally the ONLY reason to take rangers and rogues in groups (barring the occasional key-less door).

This being the case, why not make it so that rangers and rogues need about the same hitroll as warriors, instead of re-adjusting the hitroll knob to make hitting easier overall? Rangers and rogues ARE hitters after all... you would think they would be better at it than warriors and paladins anyway.

Just a different angle on the problem.

--Eadgydd
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Postby Lyt » Thu Sep 13, 2001 5:26 am

I tend to agree with Corth as well. Before the mud went down, all of the damage was done my having 2-3 invokers in every zoning group. But now that druids, shamen, and even necros/liches all have substantial upgrades in nuking damage, people are avoiding invokers due to spell feedback complaints and the severe difficulty in leveling them. When the mud came back up it was the druids and shamen who were the quickest casters to level. I too agree that the hitters usually take most of the downgrades because that always seems to be the easiest solution. But I agree that it would probably be better to reduce the area damage done by druids, necros/liches, and shamen, and maybe even increase the exp requirements for druids and shamen now to kind of even things out. (Yes I am prepared to be flamed by druids and shamen, but that is OK with me.)

As it is now, most groups have a couple of tanks they throw into battles first, then send in the nukers and hope the tanks hold out. Having played a high level warrior the last couple of incarnations of the mud, it was more fun back then because we were more than just meat shields. Most warriors would dual wield or use a 2h weapon. Now every warrior is almost required to wear a shield just to keep the casters alive to kill everything. Some of the killing fulfillment of being a hitter needs to be restored to the class.
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Postby Kegor » Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:31 pm

Good posts by both Corth and Lyt.

I agree in the past I have said that inferno and swarm damage was too weak due to the very time consuming and difficult quests... not to mention leveling an invoker to level 50 to make those spells work well for you. But.. now grouping with liches, necros, shamans, and illithids for a while and seeing the way we can destroy any zone with ease.. I'd have to say that an area spell damage downgrade is a must across the board. I also agree with the point Lyt made about making shaman, druid, and necro exp a little more challenging and maybe returning invoker exp back the way it was at the beginning of the wipe. I don't really like the thought of not being as powerful as I am now... but there is a definate problem with zone difficulty and balance that needs to be adressed. I am fully willing to comprimise. Maybe then we can see what elementalists and non-stuttering bards can do?

-Jaznolg
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Postby Salen » Tue Sep 18, 2001 11:37 pm

Have been playing Druid with some eq moved over. I feel truly sorry for a true newbie playing an elf. Very few people to group with and completely impossible to solo now. With a 13 hit, I had trouble with mobs 1-2 levels higher than me. So for a true newbie 50 robins and you can get to level 2. Of course, they flee so you'll spend 3-5 minutes on each one.
I think the effect on lower levels needs to be looked at. Had I not A) had eq to move around and B) hadf blind faith that it gets better, I'd have never make it to 10th let alone 20th and off the island.
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Postby Blung » Wed Sep 19, 2001 12:04 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Eadgydd:
<B>As far as I can see, the only people with a real reason to complain about the hitroll changes are rangers and rogues. Warriors and paladins never needed as much hitroll as rangers and rogues, and they can tank, so even if they aren't hitting as much they are still useful to a group. But hitting is literally the ONLY reason to take rangers and rogues in groups (barring the occasional key-less door).

This being the case, why not make it so that rangers and rogues need about the same hitroll as warriors, instead of re-adjusting the hitroll knob to make hitting easier overall? Rangers and rogues ARE hitters after all... you would think they would be better at it than warriors and paladins anyway.

Just a different angle on the problem.

--Eadgydd</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Since when did Rangers and Rogue become real hitters? And when Paladork and Warriors become meatshield? Are we playing on the same mud? Is this mud all about Rangers and Rogue?


Blung take no prisoner.
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Postby Nokie » Wed Sep 19, 2001 12:27 am

Since before it opened. Pay attention.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Blung:
Since when did Rangers and Rogue become real hitters?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



------------------
Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
Blung
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Postby Blung » Wed Sep 19, 2001 1:00 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nokie:
<B>
Since before it opened. Pay attention.



</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as I understand it, it just mean rogue and ranger have more attacks. So to say warrior/anti/pal are not hitter, I think it totally BS.

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