To area staff (re: nightshade bracelet changes)
To area staff (re: nightshade bracelet changes)
Just discovered yesterday that frost giant mages now block entry into the door that leads to the frost giant alchemist (nightshade bracelet mob). I think this is a particularly bad idea.
Jot wasn't meant to be a zone exclusive to large groups. I have been taking small groups of 6 people or so to jot for years. People want to come for two reasons. (1) the experience is pretty decent (though risky), and (2) Between regular load eq and rare eq found on the grid, people usually leave with something nice.
Now, the nightshade is not gettable without a large group. What this does is make jot a less viable zone for a grid group. I think this takes away from jot as a whole, because the beauty of the zone is that it was flexible enough to handle different types of uses. The nightshade and fireweed were always carrots that made doing the grid worth it instead of doing less risky experience. With the fireweed moved (?) and the nightshade made difficult to get by 6 people, its less likely that small groups will go there.
The question i ask you, is would you rather have people doing ship experience or jot grid experience?
Another factor: Its not like getting the nightshade the old way was such a safe endeavor. It involved a fair amount of risk on the part of the person sneaking past the frost giant mages. And moreover, it wasn't like a rogue using a hide skill could just walk in. there is a closed door that must be opened. The only real way of doing this was sending in a pet and hoping that you can open the door before the pet dies and also that you didn't get hit by an area in the process and become engaged.
Furthermore, in order to even get to the area where the nightshade is, you had to get through a large aggro grid. Its not like anyone could just walk up and twink the item.
I think the gods should be concentrating on putting in more zones that have a nice reward and are doable by 5-6 skilled people. Another zone like that was troll king, but its been ruined for half the mud because its all evil-race eq. Now, less grid groups will goto jot, and its just another step in a trend of making all groups 12+ people.
Corth
Jot wasn't meant to be a zone exclusive to large groups. I have been taking small groups of 6 people or so to jot for years. People want to come for two reasons. (1) the experience is pretty decent (though risky), and (2) Between regular load eq and rare eq found on the grid, people usually leave with something nice.
Now, the nightshade is not gettable without a large group. What this does is make jot a less viable zone for a grid group. I think this takes away from jot as a whole, because the beauty of the zone is that it was flexible enough to handle different types of uses. The nightshade and fireweed were always carrots that made doing the grid worth it instead of doing less risky experience. With the fireweed moved (?) and the nightshade made difficult to get by 6 people, its less likely that small groups will go there.
The question i ask you, is would you rather have people doing ship experience or jot grid experience?
Another factor: Its not like getting the nightshade the old way was such a safe endeavor. It involved a fair amount of risk on the part of the person sneaking past the frost giant mages. And moreover, it wasn't like a rogue using a hide skill could just walk in. there is a closed door that must be opened. The only real way of doing this was sending in a pet and hoping that you can open the door before the pet dies and also that you didn't get hit by an area in the process and become engaged.
Furthermore, in order to even get to the area where the nightshade is, you had to get through a large aggro grid. Its not like anyone could just walk up and twink the item.
I think the gods should be concentrating on putting in more zones that have a nice reward and are doable by 5-6 skilled people. Another zone like that was troll king, but its been ruined for half the mud because its all evil-race eq. Now, less grid groups will goto jot, and its just another step in a trend of making all groups 12+ people.
Corth
a) llewyrr bracelet are arguably better for mages. They are obtainable by one or two skillful player. I wear llewyrr's out of choice instead of nightshades. For neutral mages (most are neutral), silver bands are much better.
b) nightshade has been obtainable by a small group ever since jot was put in. Was it so unbalancing 5 years ago? This situation isnt like CC where recent class changes have made it twinkable and something had to be put in to keep, what is supposed to be a very difficult zone, from becoming a joke.
c) nightshade is only marginally better than ivory bracelet with is doable by 3 people.
d) if a nice item is necessary to lure people away from the pirate ship and do something which gets them exp but also prepares them to do zones (real "experience" imho), is it such a bad tradeoff? Shouldnt experience groups that decide to take on added risk get an added reward. Or stated differently, who would voluntarily chose more risk without an additional reward?
e) it isnt like the nightshade was easily obtainable for a small group. they had to navigate an aggro grid to get to that spot, and then do a risky maneuver to get them past the mages.
Corth
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 09-20-2001).]
b) nightshade has been obtainable by a small group ever since jot was put in. Was it so unbalancing 5 years ago? This situation isnt like CC where recent class changes have made it twinkable and something had to be put in to keep, what is supposed to be a very difficult zone, from becoming a joke.
c) nightshade is only marginally better than ivory bracelet with is doable by 3 people.
d) if a nice item is necessary to lure people away from the pirate ship and do something which gets them exp but also prepares them to do zones (real "experience" imho), is it such a bad tradeoff? Shouldnt experience groups that decide to take on added risk get an added reward. Or stated differently, who would voluntarily chose more risk without an additional reward?
e) it isnt like the nightshade was easily obtainable for a small group. they had to navigate an aggro grid to get to that spot, and then do a risky maneuver to get them past the mages.
Corth
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 09-20-2001).]
I don't think the nightshade thing is such a big deal.
The gods don't want people running past mobs. Okay. Fair enough.
One concern I have is the clump.
Why exactly was this made so difficult to get?
I've cleared the grid entirely four to five times now and not gotten it off any of the mobs.
If you want to make the fireweed difficult to get, stick it on a new jot rare. A rare which will entice a grid group and balances
out the loss of the nightshade to 5 people.
Dornax
Jurdex
The gods don't want people running past mobs. Okay. Fair enough.
One concern I have is the clump.
Why exactly was this made so difficult to get?
I've cleared the grid entirely four to five times now and not gotten it off any of the mobs.
If you want to make the fireweed difficult to get, stick it on a new jot rare. A rare which will entice a grid group and balances
out the loss of the nightshade to 5 people.
Dornax
Jurdex
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shevarash:
IShould what is essentially the best mage wristwear really be easily obtainable a small group?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually I wear better eq than that on my wrists and I haven't even started on silverband quest.
IShould what is essentially the best mage wristwear really be easily obtainable a small group?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually I wear better eq than that on my wrists and I haven't even started on silverband quest.
Jurdex:
I kind of agree about the clump. As far as im concerned, either the clump or the nightshade would suffice to keep grid groups in jot. Putting it on a rare though isn't enough imho. There should be at least one nice item which a grid group knows it can get.
IMHO, the clump should be hidden on the ground 1 room up from its previous location. There are two aggro fire giants in that room. A doable, but not easy fight for a grid group. If those mobs were made to track, it would not be a very twinkable item.
The clump should be on that volcano, it doesnt jibe with the zone well if its on a rare or something. Its a plant that grows in a specific location.
Of course, now that i mentioned this, it will never be put there
Corth
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 09-20-2001).]
I kind of agree about the clump. As far as im concerned, either the clump or the nightshade would suffice to keep grid groups in jot. Putting it on a rare though isn't enough imho. There should be at least one nice item which a grid group knows it can get.
IMHO, the clump should be hidden on the ground 1 room up from its previous location. There are two aggro fire giants in that room. A doable, but not easy fight for a grid group. If those mobs were made to track, it would not be a very twinkable item.
The clump should be on that volcano, it doesnt jibe with the zone well if its on a rare or something. Its a plant that grows in a specific location.
Of course, now that i mentioned this, it will never be put there
Corth
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 09-20-2001).]
Heh.. nods.. I agree with the whole clump thing. In fact the clump has become somewhat of a joke with people whom I group with.
If a rare loads in another zone, we'll joke that maybe the fireweed loaded there, since we've -never- found it in jot since it was changed. And believe me, we've cleared the grid plenty of times.
Nightshade I think was kinda too easy before. The frostmages it seems were one of the changed up there to make things harder.
However, I do agree with Corth that it is quite nite to have someplace to get some good xp and some decent eq for smaller groups like Jot grid.. thats why so many people love the zone.. there are very broad ranges of difficulty in the zone and a lot of verious items and rares. We usually have a full 15 person zoning group, and those who can't come usually end up doing xp or sitting around since we suck up the wellers and ghealers.
If a rare loads in another zone, we'll joke that maybe the fireweed loaded there, since we've -never- found it in jot since it was changed. And believe me, we've cleared the grid plenty of times.
Nightshade I think was kinda too easy before. The frostmages it seems were one of the changed up there to make things harder.
However, I do agree with Corth that it is quite nite to have someplace to get some good xp and some decent eq for smaller groups like Jot grid.. thats why so many people love the zone.. there are very broad ranges of difficulty in the zone and a lot of verious items and rares. We usually have a full 15 person zoning group, and those who can't come usually end up doing xp or sitting around since we suck up the wellers and ghealers.
Blung:
6 people cannot kill 2 !bash casters unless its done in runs. You cant do that fight in runs because if you flee, you will run into more mages and die.
Maybe I'm wrong.. and you have some knowledge I dont.. But I have a difficult enough time killing a single !bash caster (such as mimir) with 6 people..
If im wrong though, and 6 people can still get nightshade, then the change is fine as far as im concerned.
Corth
6 people cannot kill 2 !bash casters unless its done in runs. You cant do that fight in runs because if you flee, you will run into more mages and die.
Maybe I'm wrong.. and you have some knowledge I dont.. But I have a difficult enough time killing a single !bash caster (such as mimir) with 6 people..
If im wrong though, and 6 people can still get nightshade, then the change is fine as far as im concerned.
Corth
Laugh..
I wouldn't suggest anyone try doing that fight in runs. The way the rooms are layed out, you have a good chance of fleeing deeper and deeper into successive rooms with 2 mages each.
The fight is basically the same as the 2 rhemo room in vault, except you can't flee and the rhemos probably hit slightly harder. A decent sized group could certainly kill the 2 rhemos without fleeing. But 6 people.. i doubt it.
One option is for person tanking to be summoned out after others retreat north. This could certainly work and allow you to do it in runs. My thought however on this method is it would probably fail more often than work succesfully. It would require very good leadership to coordinate this type of attack.
I think its very likely the room can be killed by 6 people. I myself led a group of 5 people that killed loki once and obviously thats a lot more challenging. However, when I did that we had lots of deaths, and I expect that theres no way that the 2 mages can be killed by 6 people without usually incurring deaths and having to take several runs at it. This is not an option for a grid group (who are there to exp), just like it isn't normally an option for a grid group to kill loki.
I have no problem with the nightshade being challenging. I just think that it should be challenging for a grid group.
Theres an easy was of settleing this. Someone go kill the 2 mage room with 6 people and incur no deaths. If you can.. well my hats off to you, the bragging rights are yours.
Btw: How about making that room a mage and a soldier? That would be challenging for 6 people but definately doable.
Corth
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 09-20-2001).]
I wouldn't suggest anyone try doing that fight in runs. The way the rooms are layed out, you have a good chance of fleeing deeper and deeper into successive rooms with 2 mages each.
The fight is basically the same as the 2 rhemo room in vault, except you can't flee and the rhemos probably hit slightly harder. A decent sized group could certainly kill the 2 rhemos without fleeing. But 6 people.. i doubt it.
One option is for person tanking to be summoned out after others retreat north. This could certainly work and allow you to do it in runs. My thought however on this method is it would probably fail more often than work succesfully. It would require very good leadership to coordinate this type of attack.
I think its very likely the room can be killed by 6 people. I myself led a group of 5 people that killed loki once and obviously thats a lot more challenging. However, when I did that we had lots of deaths, and I expect that theres no way that the 2 mages can be killed by 6 people without usually incurring deaths and having to take several runs at it. This is not an option for a grid group (who are there to exp), just like it isn't normally an option for a grid group to kill loki.
I have no problem with the nightshade being challenging. I just think that it should be challenging for a grid group.
Theres an easy was of settleing this. Someone go kill the 2 mage room with 6 people and incur no deaths. If you can.. well my hats off to you, the bragging rights are yours.
Btw: How about making that room a mage and a soldier? That would be challenging for 6 people but definately doable.
Corth
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 09-20-2001).]
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- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
You, corth as a illusionist, should realize one of the easiest ways to do the fight. I can do the fight with less then 6 people.. 41+ no problem...
Ship exp is one of the few places to do exp left. Since typically when we find a way to do decent exp, it is made too hard to make it effecient exp. *tease cyric*
[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 09-21-2001).]
Ship exp is one of the few places to do exp left. Since typically when we find a way to do decent exp, it is made too hard to make it effecient exp. *tease cyric*
[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 09-21-2001).]
Galok:
Well..
I know they can be stunned by illus and shamans.. I just dont think it would be an "easy" fight with just six people. It would be very risky. Ok, if your so confident, go do that fight with 6 people and post the log. But if you get spanked, post that log too.
Of course, a mage (especially an illus who has mirror image) could also go in spelled up, area, and dim out for more spells. But thats kind of twinky imho. Just time consuming battle and not much fun for rest of the group.
Corth
Well..
I know they can be stunned by illus and shamans.. I just dont think it would be an "easy" fight with just six people. It would be very risky. Ok, if your so confident, go do that fight with 6 people and post the log. But if you get spanked, post that log too.
Of course, a mage (especially an illus who has mirror image) could also go in spelled up, area, and dim out for more spells. But thats kind of twinky imho. Just time consuming battle and not much fun for rest of the group.
Corth
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- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
dunno if i agree with you corth. most 6 man groups who do jot exp probably dont need the nightshade. then again in most jot groups nightshade is one of the last pieces anyone wants.
Still one of the nice things about jot is that alot of people can get a piece fo eq. It really sucked when fireweeed was being twinked all the time because it meant one less piece of eq to give out. I dunno it'd be like twinking the shroud from vault. not many people want it, but it is a relatively nice item.
Still one of the nice things about jot is that alot of people can get a piece fo eq. It really sucked when fireweeed was being twinked all the time because it meant one less piece of eq to give out. I dunno it'd be like twinking the shroud from vault. not many people want it, but it is a relatively nice item.
Corth's solution to the fireweed is much better than the change that was implemented, in my opinion.
Make a group go kill the fire giants. Heck, add another one or give them shields if you'd like to make it a more difficult fight.
Why make it so rare? I'm all for making twinkable things difficult, but this was kinda ridiculous in gameplay terms, in my opinion.
Dornax
Jurdex
Make a group go kill the fire giants. Heck, add another one or give them shields if you'd like to make it a more difficult fight.
Why make it so rare? I'm all for making twinkable things difficult, but this was kinda ridiculous in gameplay terms, in my opinion.
Dornax
Jurdex
Certain thing you should post and certain thing you shouldn't post. There is no point of showing or prove it to you how it can be done. Not to pick on goodie, but as evil we learn to zone/group with what we have. We do more stupid, daring, or whatever you want to call it. Sometime we pay the price for it. "It's better to try and fail then not to try it at all!" But we never put anyone eq at risk. And most of the time we have brave people to do the dirty job. Afterall evils are at least 1/2 the size of goodie populations.
Blung take no prisoner.
[This message has been edited by Blung (edited 09-21-2001).]
Blung take no prisoner.
[This message has been edited by Blung (edited 09-21-2001).]
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- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
I have posted somewhere before that nightshade was too easy to get for how nice the stats on it were... and that I thought it should be downgraded. Booo hisss.. I know. But nice eq should be a little more challenging to come by. My opinion still stands even if you can't walk right by the mages anymore.
-Jaznolg
-Jaznolg
i think your on crack i've done those 2 mages with about a 6 man group go look in the logs section someone posted in or group about doin second gate house or sumthin, but plain and simple you must suck to not handle two lil wussy mages , and to say we only had 1 warrior/1 cleric , you'll be suprised what you can do with the right bad arse people.......
who ever said jot/gride/rares/ anything there was made for 6 man groups?!?!? nobody thats what I thought
people go there with six man groups because they think they are buf enough to do it , get good xp and try to get some eq from a major zone w/o a zone group. the zone was not made for smaller groups, but rather full groups. so the argument its to hard for a 6 man group doesnt cut it.
people go there with six man groups because they think they are buf enough to do it , get good xp and try to get some eq from a major zone w/o a zone group. the zone was not made for smaller groups, but rather full groups. so the argument its to hard for a 6 man group doesnt cut it.
i would do jot grid if i wasn't a ultra. i agree. i wished they just moved the clump 1u to the 2 fire giants.
anyways u can say whatever u want about nightshade but even during my eq hording days when i had loads of eq i wore nightshade. silver band is hard as heck.
when i did jot exp, i usually had the intention of finishing zone so i would add folks as i went along. but if u didn't want to do zone i dont have a solution for you.
anyways u can say whatever u want about nightshade but even during my eq hording days when i had loads of eq i wore nightshade. silver band is hard as heck.
when i did jot exp, i usually had the intention of finishing zone so i would add folks as i went along. but if u didn't want to do zone i dont have a solution for you.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
<B>You, corth as a illusionist, should realize one of the easiest ways to do the fight. I can do the fight with less then 6 people.. 41+ no problem...
[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 09-21-2001).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
heh, all I had to do was skill_illus... it's SO obvious my head hurt. :P
<B>You, corth as a illusionist, should realize one of the easiest ways to do the fight. I can do the fight with less then 6 people.. 41+ no problem...
[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 09-21-2001).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
heh, all I had to do was skill_illus... it's SO obvious my head hurt. :P
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