Just a question...

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Galorion
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Just a question...

Postby Galorion » Fri Sep 14, 2001 4:05 pm

Are there any plans to give enchanters enchantment xp? I'm not even asking for a time frame, just wondering if it's even on "The List". I'm getting really tired of having to play my enchanter like an invoker to get any sort of decent xp.

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Galorion (Paladin)/Alzaris (Enchanter)
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Postby Malacar » Fri Sep 14, 2001 5:40 pm

Hear, hear.

I might even consider coming back if this is ever fixed.
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Postby Gindipple » Fri Sep 14, 2001 7:39 pm

The thing with enchanters is they are extremely powerful to a group but their level number is not reflective of that power. What I mean by this is if you have a level 40 enchanter you are easilly as important to the group as a level 50 warrior. This is really only a problem if you have level number envy. I know from playing one into the 40's that you will get called upon 10 levels lower than almost any other char there is. I was in Jot I believe at level 27 this wipe and I can assure you the warriors were not level 27.

With this in mind one solution would be to give enchanters faster level numbers, IE more exp. But now consider this is a 50 enchanter the equivelent of a 60 warrior? I bet if the top of the level tree was 60 you would see level 50 enches in that group.

I must admit I at first was in agreement with more exp for enchanters. But it took me a while to realize it was just a number and that if I simply pretended I was 10 levels higher than my listed number I felt better about it :>

Don't let that silly little number make you think you are lesser in some way, because you are not.
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Postby Malacar » Fri Sep 14, 2001 8:14 pm

*laughs*

Ok, so failing spells.. Only having 3 globes.. Holding the group up because you need to cast then remem for a single spellup...

Numbers aren't important?
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Postby cherzra » Fri Sep 14, 2001 8:18 pm

Gindipple is right. I know enchanters are hard, but if you see what they can do, it's fearsome. Just ask anyone who's seen the high evil ones do things.
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Postby Galorion » Fri Sep 14, 2001 8:33 pm

Numbers DO matter. Having less than 3 globes in a zone group sucks, especially when you fail them.

Being in an xp group and watching everyone else get xp at 50% faster rate than you is frustrating. It's not level number envy either, I don't care what my level number is compared to other players. I know that enchanters are vital to a group even if you're 5-10 levels lower. It's about getting that feeling of making progress developing your character when you put time into it.

But the most irritating thing of all is not getting xp for the job that we're supposed to be doing! Even if xp rate was the same, I'd much rather be getting the xp for stones and hastes than for cones and pris sprays. If I wanted to be a nuker, I would've rolled an invoker. This is the point that most non-enchanters don't understand. Imagine being a cleric and not getting healing xp. Imagine playing a ranger or paladin and only getting xp for healing. This is the type of feeling that it is to play an enchanter.

Progress is so slow for enchanters that if I hadn't gotten ressed for my past few deaths, I would've quit the class completely.



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Galorion (Paladin)/Alzaris (Enchanter)
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Fri Sep 14, 2001 9:06 pm

Cherzra... You know I respect you, so I am going to ask politely that you not comment on something you haven't played til 40+.

Simply put: Having 3 or less globes in a group sucks. Having to cast 800 hastes, keep track of stones, blurs, etc... Then have to cast frigging offense to get some decent exp.. Sucks donkey nuts.

Yes, Enchanters are needed, and are a staple class.

Yes, enchanters can be powerful if played by the correct people.

Does any of this mean that enchanters should not get exp for their enchantments? Nope. Sorry. Play again.

I don't care if the exp tables get modified so that the level of exp makes it the exact same difficulty to level. I'd LIKE to see it easier, at least a little bit so... But honestly, despite the total annoyance factor, the falling behind bull, and total frustration.. It CAN be lived with.

The simple fact that I think most enchanters, at least the ones that are in agreement with Galorion, are in arguement with one simple fact:

Enchanters get more exp for damage than Invokers. And it is their staple spellcasting source for exp. Given the fact their specialty is enchanters, and every other class(with the exception of Conjurers, but I hear even that is changing) gets exp for their primary abilities, whether they be healing, damage, tanking, etc... Then Enchanters don't.. Well I think you can see where some frustration comes in.

The shitty part of all of this, though.. Is that MANY suggestions have been put forth on this topic, and we have yet to see any god input on this with any substance. We don't know if they have a plan. We don't know if they are even considering it. We don't know what course of action they are planning. We don't know if our ideas are on track or off. We know less than an ostrich with it's head in the ground. Which is to say... We know nothing.
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Postby Saren » Fri Sep 14, 2001 10:55 pm

Clearly, ALL classes should get XP for performing their primary functions: ie damage for hitters, healing for those that can caster such spells in combat, etc.

Enchanters can and do, I presume, get xp for damage, but it pales in comparison to what they spend 85% of their time doing: keeping the party alive and effective. This is a clear shortcoming that could be rectified for not only enchanters, but all casting classes.

I would propose that spells cast in battle that aid the party directly, in any manner, be given some level of xp for the caster. This would clearly help balancing by also allowing xp that is not merely damage-based, but in effectiveness to their party/self in combat.

Regards,
Saren/Lantinor
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Postby Corth » Sat Sep 15, 2001 3:26 pm

Heh malacar..

you dont make enchanters sounds very fun to play. Image
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Sat Sep 15, 2001 4:33 pm

They are fun to an extent.. But with all the headaches playing caused me... Well let's just say I quit so I don't have to get enormously upset about this topic anymore. I can post about it, and be aggravated, but not see red.

I like that. And I'm a lot calmer these days.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Sep 15, 2001 5:46 pm

hey malacar, this is dartan. can i have my gear back if you're not gonna play anymore? i haven't seen u in a month or two and I am on alot.
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Sat Sep 15, 2001 8:13 pm

I quit dude. What did I have that was yours aside from statue? I honestly forget.
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Postby Lyt » Sun Sep 16, 2001 12:00 am

Hey Malacar,

Did you quit? I don't think you mention it enough.
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Sun Sep 16, 2001 1:22 am

Hey Lyt,

Yeah, I quit.

Though.. That only means I quit.

So... I quit.

Image
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Postby Kiloppile » Sun Sep 16, 2001 2:42 am

So you're saying if they fix it you'll come back? Damn. I was actually hoping they'd fix it someday.
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Postby Malacar » Sun Sep 16, 2001 4:49 am

Nah, I doubt it. But I still love you, Kil.
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Postby kiryan » Sun Sep 16, 2001 9:49 am

enc suck ass to level. I leveld one to 40. Used a orb of annihilation and a hitroll of 35 or so. didnt cast any spells except stone and haste. still took me 8 days to reach 40. you could do a warior or ranger in 3 and a half to 4 (previous incarnation of sojourn). Problem is how to give enc exp for casting spells without having it twinked.
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Sun Sep 16, 2001 2:19 pm

The difference is the power level. If you have seen level 50 enchanters in action, you'd understand why the exp is so slow. Enchanters are the true rulers of this mud. Ask anyone thats seen them in action.
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Postby Galorion » Wed Sep 19, 2001 2:23 pm

Is there any answer to my question?
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Postby Gindipple » Wed Sep 19, 2001 4:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
Problem is how to give enc exp for casting spells without having it twinked.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How is this a problem when it's not a problem for heal exp?
It would be so easy to code twinking out on this that it's not even worth suggesting that it would be twinkable.
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Postby omrec » Wed Sep 19, 2001 9:50 pm

Ok, so I was just doing a little exp, seeing how fast I'd notch. In the time it took me to get 3 notches (6%), as a 47th level Enchanter, a 50th ranger got 10 notches. Damage exp is almost non-existant, even with the fact that all I do is cast 4 constricts, flee out, mem, repeat. Some sort of exp bonus for enchantment spells would be nice. Consider that because of haste, i'm actually responsible for at least a third of the group's hitter damage (2/5 hits for dualers, 1/3 for non-dualers).

Someone also posted earlier that displacement and blur were basically the same. Not true at all. Blur is time based, and also affects spell save (very helpful against mages). Displacement is more like stone, both time and hit based, and to my knowledge doesn't effect spell saves. As to having to cast lots of globes/hastes/blurs/stones in a spellup, make a good necro or lich come with yah, and/or a conj, and have them to do the hastes/globes...then all the chanter has to do is scale/blur, and life is much nicer.. Image

Omrec Daekan, Terror of Podville
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Postby kobdahn » Thu Sep 20, 2001 2:47 am

I too would like to see this changed. Enchanters are one of the most complicated classes to play in a group, but don't get much for the hard work. I just gave up on trying to catch up with the folks I usually group with. I'm now content with being 5 levels behind all the time. But it's not as rewarding.

I also agree with Galorion that it isn't the most important class balancing change that's needed. Heck, just look at bards. But it should be on the list.

So, as Galorion asked, do the gods feel that the exp rate for enchanters needs correcting?

Thanks.

kobbie
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Postby Treladian » Thu Sep 20, 2001 4:31 am

Omrec: From what I've heard and seen, level 50 seems to be a lot easier to buffer than it is to get. When I was 49, I got less experience from a Jot run then Bell did. Comparing your progress to a level 50 probably won't yield accurate numbers.
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Postby omrec » Thu Sep 20, 2001 7:58 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Treladian:
Omrec: From what I've heard and seen, level 50 seems to be a lot easier to buffer than it is to get. When I was 49, I got less experience from a Jot run then Bell did. Comparing your progress to a level 50 probably won't yield accurate numbers.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, actually, I didn't really intend it as a comparison, more of a 'look at the huge difference!' kinda statement. My main concern is actually that modifying damage exp isn't really appropriate, because that isn't what our class is about, its about enchantment. I guess as long as I can keep the (albeit very slow) progress going, I'll be happy.. Image
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Postby rylan » Thu Sep 20, 2001 12:33 pm

Hehehe.. I feel your pain Omrec.
It took me a month to go from lvl 47 to 48, and I've been 48 for 3 weeks now I think, and am at 66%. chuckle

Yeah ClericXP(tm) :P
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Postby Gort » Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:10 pm

I'm finally back to 50%! Thanks Rylan for the resses, without you, I'd be wallowing around 25%. One day, I too will have gheal....

Yes Omrec, Rylan I feel the exp pain...

But I'm still having fun, and that's really why I play.

Toplack
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Postby Galorion » Wed Sep 26, 2001 7:31 pm

*bump*

Still no answer?
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Postby rylan » Wed Sep 26, 2001 9:59 pm

Galorian, I think it was discussed with the gods, but I'm not entirely sure if they decided to do it. I don't see why not.. the trick would just be getting the code added.
Too bad one of the coders can't win the lottery.. then they could retire and just code for sojourn.. cackle Image
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Postby Galorion » Wed Sep 26, 2001 11:16 pm

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Galorian, I think it was discussed with the gods, but I'm not entirely sure if they decided to do it. </font>

That's all I want is an answer - "Yes, we're looking into doing it", or "No, we don't think it's a good idea", either way I'd just be happy to know Image.
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Sep 29, 2001 9:38 pm

While initially I had decided not to do it, I am again investigating the possibility.

Which is as much answer as I can give at the present time. Image



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<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
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Postby Galorion » Sat Sep 29, 2001 10:00 pm

Thanks Shev, that's all I wanted to know for now Image.
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Postby Zen » Sun Sep 30, 2001 2:34 am

Just outta curiousity, wouldn't it be a theoretically simple solution to make it so that enchanters got like %1 of the dammage xp bonused to them from dammage based off of haste and dammage absorbed from stones, if they where in the group and in the room?

I don't know what the numbers are, but it would make a diffrence I'm sure.

-Zenriel
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Postby Vazzgo » Sun Sep 30, 2001 10:02 am

You can't have many of the so-called most powerful classes around because they would unbalance the game.. that's why i think classes like enchanters/invokers/etc are and should stay hard to exp, so enchanting exp is and should stay the way it is to slow down those enchanters imho.
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Sep 30, 2001 3:13 pm

Having five enchanters in a group doesn't help you any more than having two.

Having none, however, makes zoning impossible.

I think that alone regulates the number of high level enchanters on the mud.

- Ragorn
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Postby Jegzed » Sun Sep 30, 2001 3:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>Having five enchanters in a group doesn't help you any more than having two.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually there are places where I'd rather want another prismer than another swarmer Image

/Jegzed, satans little helper
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Postby Jurdex » Sun Sep 30, 2001 3:46 pm

I disagree. 5 prisms paras quite a bit. Image

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Postby Galorion » Sun Sep 30, 2001 3:55 pm

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Actually there are places where I'd rather want another prismer than another swarmer </font>

Yes, but in what percentage of the mud does this happen? And how often would you want 5 pris sprays over a ghealer or over another tank? Every zone group I've ever been in has had 1, maybe 2 enchanters. Even 2 enchanters is overkill if your group is caster heavy. I think Ragorn's statement is 100% accurate.

There's just no reason for enchanter xp tables to be so harsh AND having them get no enchantment xp.
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Postby Jegzed » Sun Sep 30, 2001 4:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galorion:
Actually there are places where I'd rather want another prismer than another swarmer
<B>
Yes, but in what percentage of the mud does this happen? And how often would you want 5 pris sprays over a ghealer or over another tank? Every zone group I've ever been in has had 1, maybe 2 enchanters. Even 2 enchanters is overkill if your group is caster heavy. I think Ragorn's statement is 100% accurate.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Come back when you have played for more than a few weeks. Thank you drive through.

Just ditch all rogues/rangers/palliedorks and bring all area casters.. With the current system an enchanter just casting prism in any larger fight is MUCH more useful than yet-another-hitter..

<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
There's just no reason for enchanter xp tables to be so harsh AND having them get no enchantment xp.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree strongly.

Enchanters are the absolutely most powerful caster around and should NOT be made easier to level.

I haven't done real exp in over a month but still managed to go from 46 to 47.90 or something while zoning and LEADING zones daily.

/Jegzed
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Postby Malacar » Sun Sep 30, 2001 4:41 pm

Jegzed, I think you are missing the point.

Most people CANNOT zone or lead daily like you can. I really envy the fact that you can.

Not to mention on the goodie side there aren't many tightly knit groups like you have on the evils side. So you have the benefit of being one of two(you said that, I am just repeating it!) enchanters to select from.

I think your opinion on this one is colored by that simple fact.
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Postby Galorion » Mon Oct 01, 2001 12:40 am

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Come back when you have played for more than a few weeks. Thank you drive through.</font>

Come back when you can stop being an arrogant prick. Thank you drive through.

I'm simply asking a question based on what I've seen in groups that have been led by people who have been around at least as long as you. You obviously have a lot of knowledge of the mud since you have insane amounts of time to play, but you really need to work on your delivery of advice.

And if 5 enchanters really are better than 2, why aren't more evil enchanters getting taken zoning? In other threads on this board, lots of evil enchs complain because only you and Ossis ever get work.

[This message has been edited by Galorion (edited 09-30-2001).]
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Postby Vazzgo » Mon Oct 01, 2001 1:04 am

Imagine a necro or an enchanter being as easy to lvl as a warrior? (shudder).. there would be groups left and right and everything would be moving quicker than it should.

I know how you feel Galorion, i bet most of us had felt the same way, but we got to accept that there are certain more difficult classes than others.. that's why many of us had played hitter/priest ones for the start to "learn around" and after that usually the mage classes wich in one hand are harder to play but in the other hand are much productive.

Of course this is not a rule but it applies to most cases.

[This message has been edited by Vazzgo (edited 09-30-2001).]
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Postby Vazzgo » Mon Oct 01, 2001 1:04 am

Double post

[This message has been edited by Vazzgo (edited 09-30-2001).]
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Postby Vipplin » Mon Oct 01, 2001 5:20 pm

Yes, enchanters are way needed and kick ass. Some points about hard enchy xp...

1. Weak of resolve need not apply - makes the class kinda fun, knowing you are special.
2. By the time they are high level, they know what they are doing (if they'll ever learn) - note the lack of experience of many warriors that are high level and the effects that has.
3. The rewards are tremendous. Compare rewards for warrior going 40-50 versus enchy going 41-46.

I think they should be hard to level, but I also think they should get xp for doing their job instead of someone else's.

Vadian
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Postby Malacar » Mon Oct 01, 2001 6:25 pm

So one class should 'take one for the team' while others get 5-10 levels ahead? (That's like saying the baseball pitcher should work every night, even though his arm hurts/is-broken, so he can get better at his job. The pitcher eventually tires and burns out, or becomes disinterested and quits.)

I am really tired of people saying 'oh they should be hard to level, they rock at high levels!'

Go play one then say that, and stop repeating hearsay. It's tiring.

No class should be that hard to exp.

And no class should not get exp for doing their primary job.

*shrugs* I am frustrated at work with an issue with SSL that we've been banging our heads against for 6 hours now. Sorry if I sound a bit testy, because I am.

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