I figure everyone is entitled to one whiney post. Here is mine.
I agree that when alpha started, liches were overpowered(we did 1st and 2nd gatehouse with 2 liches and nothing else). I was in favor of downgrades and got them. Rot casting time was close to doubled and its damage reduced. Major para on lich touch was changed to minor para. On top of this, wraiths no longer stone and ghouls do not have vampiric bite(fine we pc tank now)
New damage spells were added to the base necro class which somewhat offset these changes.
Ok good. Those are major changes and while the minor para sucked(Id rather have no para) I accepted it as fair.
Now recently, the auto-slow on lich touch was removed(huge deal), and now with area spells being downgraded, a lich's arsenal is becoming more and more depleted. If vampiric curse ever goes in, there will be a seriously difficult decision to make as far as lichdom goes.
option 1:
Do lich quest(very expensive and time consuming)
Lose vampiric curse
aggro to more stuff
Lose 4 levels(now 10% harder levels)
gain embalm and 2 good damage spells and lich touch.<--This used to be a big deal.
gain spell slots.
Option 2:
remain necro
keep spanky equip
keep vampiric curse
dont do as much damage in groups
Now I still think I would choose lichdom, but it just isn't a big deal anymore. Maybe this is because everyone and their grandmother knows the quest now, but I honestly believe that this class needs a new look.
As I suggested in general discussion(wrong forum I realize now), I do not think another general area spell would be correct. I think a super-effective vs. undead spell of some kind is the right solution.
I used to love lich touch and it makes me sad that it is a shadow of its once glorious self, but as they say, deal with it. Rot is still a brutal spell and will continue to be brutal with the new area code im guessing. That may be enough alone to choose lichdom, but it used to be a no brainer power-wise.
Anyway, thats all I have to whine about. Interested to hear other opinions.
Tanras
Doncha think yer beging a little hard on dead lovers?
I actually like the idea that necromancers wont automatically (although they all will probably anyway) go lich once they hit level 50. (Diversity is a good thing!) With vamparic curse out for the forsee able future I still don't see any real downside to liching. And necromancers/liches still are one of the most useful and powerful classes by a long shot. 1 Necro/lich can add 3 nuking globers to your group..something almost any leader would be foolish to turn away.
Belle
[This message has been edited by belleshel (edited 10-02-2001).]
Belle
[This message has been edited by belleshel (edited 10-02-2001).]
I really dont want to get into arguments of why wraiths are not the same as PC's it just isnt worth it. Even if you discount the time it takes to get those "nuking globers" they are inferior at nuking and inferior at globing, and in most combat situations somewhat uncontrolable.
As for the wishing people would have a hard decision to go lich or not. If that is the goal, then make the quest a whole lot less expensive than it is now and add more necro only abilities. I personally believe this option sucks.
As far as any leading being foolish not to want a high level necro, zones generally go faster when you don't have to stop to preserve and raise corpses all the time. That is a reason why a lot of leaders dont like having necros. Not to mention the fact that in about half of the high end zones in the game right now, most of the mobs are undead, meaning not only will the spells not do much damage, but the undead dont vamp on them and the corpses are unraisable. On top of that add the fact that a lot of zones have mobs too high to be raised(or too small) and you see that having "nuking globers" is far from trivial to achieve.
If animate worked like conjure elemental then this wouldnt be an issue. As it is, it is not trivial to create pets for a given situation without wasting the other 14 peoples' time in doing so(assuming it is possible to do at all).
Tanras
As for the wishing people would have a hard decision to go lich or not. If that is the goal, then make the quest a whole lot less expensive than it is now and add more necro only abilities. I personally believe this option sucks.
As far as any leading being foolish not to want a high level necro, zones generally go faster when you don't have to stop to preserve and raise corpses all the time. That is a reason why a lot of leaders dont like having necros. Not to mention the fact that in about half of the high end zones in the game right now, most of the mobs are undead, meaning not only will the spells not do much damage, but the undead dont vamp on them and the corpses are unraisable. On top of that add the fact that a lot of zones have mobs too high to be raised(or too small) and you see that having "nuking globers" is far from trivial to achieve.
If animate worked like conjure elemental then this wouldnt be an issue. As it is, it is not trivial to create pets for a given situation without wasting the other 14 peoples' time in doing so(assuming it is possible to do at all).
Tanras
If animate worked like conjure elemental then this wouldnt be an issue. As it is, it is not trivial to create pets for a given situation without wasting the other 14 peoples' time in doing so(assuming it is possible to do at all).
Tanras[/B][/QUOTE]
Woh back up, lets not go there. Any conj on the mud can tell you just how much time they sit there trying to get a mental that a group can use. It can and usually does take a lot longer to get a suitable mental than for a necro to get a pet.
Tanras[/B][/QUOTE]
Woh back up, lets not go there. Any conj on the mud can tell you just how much time they sit there trying to get a mental that a group can use. It can and usually does take a lot longer to get a suitable mental than for a necro to get a pet.
REALLY dont want to talk about conjurers. The fact is, if you are in crypts, you aint getting undead if the ones you bring in die. You also are severely limited in most eq zones if you are under level 48 as to what you can raise. I was trying to make the point that conjurers dont need corpses, necros do. Was not trying to do anything else. Also, globing wraiths have to be level 49+ mobs or they won't globe.
Ok having said that take a step back. I am not trying to argue that necros need an upgrade. I AM trying to argue that they should get a spell effective against undead and my justification that it would not overpower the class is that they have received a series of downgrades in the last 4 months. I am not interested in conjurers and I could care elss about support roles of necro pets. Im talking about a spell or skill vs undead. I think necros should get one, period.
I suggest this spell should be put in a circle already used a lot so that it is not a huge upgrade to the class and would serve only in specific situations. Slap it in 10th circle and you even have another reason not to lich(right now necros get jack in 10th and that is one of the primary reasons for liching). I do not want this spell to be a game altering undead inferno type spell, just something that necros can mem when they are fighting in the crypts or in cc to be considered a useful part of the team.
If you don't think this makes sense I would love to hear yer opinions.
Thanks,
Tanras
[This message has been edited by Tanras (edited 10-02-2001).]
Ok having said that take a step back. I am not trying to argue that necros need an upgrade. I AM trying to argue that they should get a spell effective against undead and my justification that it would not overpower the class is that they have received a series of downgrades in the last 4 months. I am not interested in conjurers and I could care elss about support roles of necro pets. Im talking about a spell or skill vs undead. I think necros should get one, period.
I suggest this spell should be put in a circle already used a lot so that it is not a huge upgrade to the class and would serve only in specific situations. Slap it in 10th circle and you even have another reason not to lich(right now necros get jack in 10th and that is one of the primary reasons for liching). I do not want this spell to be a game altering undead inferno type spell, just something that necros can mem when they are fighting in the crypts or in cc to be considered a useful part of the team.
If you don't think this makes sense I would love to hear yer opinions.
Thanks,
Tanras
[This message has been edited by Tanras (edited 10-02-2001).]
I'm nowhere as experienced as Tanras and I have yet to lich, yet even still I have to agree with the sentiment behind his post. In many zones I'm practically haste and globe backup now. Globing wraiths aren't even always available. Their damage output has been neutered. In an area casting scenario, they'll cast wilting fog given the chance and note that:
wraith damage already been halved
fog has since had its damage reduced
can now save spell vs fog
does 0 damage on non-organics and wraithforms
may now do 0 or further 50% damage to any mob
The other area option (which is now useful however) requires giving up our only targettable nuke.
I -do- agree with most of the necro-specific and global area spell downgrades, but I'm wondering what we're left to offer groups now that a lot of our offense has been reduced. I always felt our lack of group support was made up for by a hefty solo ability, but even in that, a lot of other classes are now comparable.
Something useful vs. undead would definitely be spiffy.
[This message has been edited by Dezzex (edited 10-02-2001).]
wraith damage already been halved
fog has since had its damage reduced
can now save spell vs fog
does 0 damage on non-organics and wraithforms
may now do 0 or further 50% damage to any mob
The other area option (which is now useful however) requires giving up our only targettable nuke.
I -do- agree with most of the necro-specific and global area spell downgrades, but I'm wondering what we're left to offer groups now that a lot of our offense has been reduced. I always felt our lack of group support was made up for by a hefty solo ability, but even in that, a lot of other classes are now comparable.
Something useful vs. undead would definitely be spiffy.
[This message has been edited by Dezzex (edited 10-02-2001).]
This might not be the thread to ask this but I'll go ahead anyways since some good points are being made. Will necromancer's be planned to ultimately have a niche in groups now that they aren't the solo artist they once were? Or does lich-dom cover that? Is there a sort of thread around that explains what's in store for every class in the future?
Gogan not lockjaw
Gogan not lockjaw
I dont think anything is planned for the class other than putting in a vampiric curse quest. That is why I am starting this discussion. I am hoping to get some other ideas rolling around the mud.
They dont really have a unique niche but are useful in most situations. That, I suspect, won't change.
Tanras
[This message has been edited by Tanras (edited 10-02-2001).]
They dont really have a unique niche but are useful in most situations. That, I suspect, won't change.
Tanras
[This message has been edited by Tanras (edited 10-02-2001).]
Was stoning removed from wraiths and ghouls that no longer vbite a trade off for being allowed into Waterdeep? (because more PC tanks would be available) The big thing that gave me interest back in the day with necromancers was if you did the time, you could be a great solo-person. I haven't had the chance to get wraith's and such this wipe but from what i've gathered it's a lot harder. I liked walking through vines :) *pout*
I can't answer about what's ultimately planned for necros, but I will say that they definately do have a niche in groups right now. Wraiths don't need to mem globes and hastes to cast them, something that's a BIG time saver and lightens the load on an enchanter. Every caster class except for clerics and enchanters can cast areas too. As it stands right now, a necro is very useful to a group to help back up the enchanter and add in damage, the latter being enchanced by lichdom but the former arguably being more important. Wraiths have weaknesses in terms of needed corpses and crumpling to areas, but the groups I've been in feel that the utility outweighs the extra bit of time it takes to make some backup corpses for emergencies. It's not possible in EVERY zone, but neither are a lot of class abilities.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tanras:
<B>we diverge,
do you or do you not think necros should get a spell vs. undead?
Tanras</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Like I answered in your thread in General Discussion, which covers this same topic, yes. I digress to further regurgitate the same information presented there, here.
After all you’ve done and been through on here Tanrat, what broughtchya back, and even more so, what’s got you so talkative this time around?
I guess things we've been thru and the years that have gone by have caused all of us to change in ways, some more then others. I know I've sure changed over the years. One reason I don't go by any old character names, don't need people to go associating the old me with the new me.
<B>we diverge,
do you or do you not think necros should get a spell vs. undead?
Tanras</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Like I answered in your thread in General Discussion, which covers this same topic, yes. I digress to further regurgitate the same information presented there, here.
After all you’ve done and been through on here Tanrat, what broughtchya back, and even more so, what’s got you so talkative this time around?
I guess things we've been thru and the years that have gone by have caused all of us to change in ways, some more then others. I know I've sure changed over the years. One reason I don't go by any old character names, don't need people to go associating the old me with the new me.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rylan:
<B>Who said anything about stopping to preserve corpses and raise them? Just get that spanky item that does it all for ya :P
Of course that is a real pain in the ass quest too.. chuckle</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thing only presses them for what, 50 min?
<B>Who said anything about stopping to preserve corpses and raise them? Just get that spanky item that does it all for ya :P
Of course that is a real pain in the ass quest too.. chuckle</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thing only presses them for what, 50 min?
Tanras-
solution to crypts problem: get command undead upped.
Would that be unbalancing? Perhaps. Hrm.
How about
Tanras completes his spell...
Tanras utters the words 'renew corpse'
Tanras has taken over the corpse of a death knight and rendered it usable!
Further, said spell could be made lich only.
As gormal says... 3nj0y.
solution to crypts problem: get command undead upped.
Would that be unbalancing? Perhaps. Hrm.
How about
Tanras completes his spell...
Tanras utters the words 'renew corpse'
Tanras has taken over the corpse of a death knight and rendered it usable!
Further, said spell could be made lich only.
As gormal says... 3nj0y.
I like that idea. Here's my variation on it..
"REANIMATION"
Spell.
Area of effect: <corpse>
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: No
Duration: Animation lasts until the undead follower dies
(again again)
Class/Circle: Necromancer ?, Lich ?
Type of spell: Summoning
"Reanimation" allows the necromancer/lich to reanimate the corpse of a previous undead as the same type of undead it was previously, but with reduced power (lower levels). The corpses will follow the necromancer for a limited time or until their destruction. A corpse can be reanimated as many times as is possible until it's level will be below that required for it's undead type (wraith at 35, ghoul at 45, etc).
See also: ORDER, PRESERVE, PETS
-Todrael
"REANIMATION"
Spell.
Area of effect: <corpse>
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: No
Duration: Animation lasts until the undead follower dies
(again again)
Class/Circle: Necromancer ?, Lich ?
Type of spell: Summoning
"Reanimation" allows the necromancer/lich to reanimate the corpse of a previous undead as the same type of undead it was previously, but with reduced power (lower levels). The corpses will follow the necromancer for a limited time or until their destruction. A corpse can be reanimated as many times as is possible until it's level will be below that required for it's undead type (wraith at 35, ghoul at 45, etc).
See also: ORDER, PRESERVE, PETS
-Todrael
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>
It actually embalms it.. which is 500 mins at level 50
Ssryth
<B>
Originally posted by rylan:
Who said anything about stopping to preserve corpses and raise them? Just get that spanky item that does it all for ya :P
Of course that is a real pain in the ass quest too.. chuckle</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thing only presses them for what, 50 min?
It actually embalms it.. which is 500 mins at level 50
Ssryth
Following what tanras has said,
Lich are actually so weak against undead (especially wraithforms) it's ridiculous..
ice tomb was the only effective spell liches got against wraithforms.. but that's pretty much useless now except for nuking fireshields. Another example is lower level annoying undead - undead fish near CC... I can protect every one in my group and they can walk by.. but myself? I get hassled by of all things.. fish! Lich could have an aura of power which stops lesser undead from attacking...
Ssryth
Lich are actually so weak against undead (especially wraithforms) it's ridiculous..
ice tomb was the only effective spell liches got against wraithforms.. but that's pretty much useless now except for nuking fireshields. Another example is lower level annoying undead - undead fish near CC... I can protect every one in my group and they can walk by.. but myself? I get hassled by of all things.. fish! Lich could have an aura of power which stops lesser undead from attacking...
Ssryth
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