Beating a dead Elf...

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Faedril
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Beating a dead Elf...

Postby Faedril » Sat Jun 30, 2001 5:30 pm

Start Rant:
[37 Warrior ] Faedril Starfire (Grey Elf)
< 333h/333H 145v/145V>

Theres just not enough HP there to tank on. Even with full spells and vit, Elves, be it drow or grey are barely on par with chars 20 levels lower from other races. We like the extra attack, but thats more than offset by the decreased crit chance. Throw us a bone, (preferably in the form of a boost of base hp by 50 or 100). Or maybe have vit affect drow and gres by 2x as much as it affects other races. The EQ route is not really an avenue. Since base hit dam is 7 4 for an elf and 6 6 for barbs/dwarves, we are -1 for hit dam starting off. Just lose more hitting ability from trying for HP eq which is neither easy to get, geared to warriors, common, and is used just as much by the "big" races to keep the gap huge.
End Rant.

Please have a look. There should be elf warriors around. Drow and Grey.
Faedril
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Postby Faedril » Sat Jun 30, 2001 7:46 pm

Point in case:

< 424h/378H 145v/145V T: Faedril TC: excellent EC: pretty hurt>
gsay PRETTY HURT
Fendoren barely slashes the first officer.
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Ladorn barely slashes the first officer.
Ladorn barely slashes the first officer.
Ladorn barely slashes the first officer.
You stagger from a fearsome hit from the first officer!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
The first officer misses you with his hit.
You barely slash the first officer.
You barely slash the first officer.
You barely slash the first officer.
Fendoren starts casting an offensive spell.

< 341h/378H 145v/145V T: Faedril TC: few scratches EC: pretty hurt> You group-say 'PRETTY HURT'

< 341h/378H 145v/145V T: Faedril TC: few scratches EC: pretty hurt>
Nalar completes his spell...
Nalar utters the words, 'paghz'
Ladorn starts to move with uncanny speed!

< 341h/378H 145v/145V T: Faedril TC: few scratches EC: pretty hurt>
The first officer's senses seem to clear again!

< 341h/378H 145v/145V T: Faedril TC: few scratches EC: pretty hurt>
Fendoren completes his spell...
Fendoren utters the words, 'ejgh oculozur'
Fendoren's whirling dust devil tears at the first officer's flesh.

< 340h/378H 145v/145V T: Faedril TC: small wounds EC: pretty hurt>
Nalar starts casting a spell.
Seldrin starts casting an offensive spell.

< 340h/378H 145v/145V T: Faedril TC: small wounds EC: pretty hurt>
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Ladorn barely slashes the first officer.
Ladorn barely slashes the first officer.
Ladorn barely slashes the first officer.
Ladorn barely slashes the first officer.
You stagger from a fearsome hit from the first officer!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
A mighty hit from the first officer makes you contemplate a new career!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
The first officer clambers to his feet.
bash
You barely slash the first officer.
You barely slash the first officer.

< 197h/378H 145v/145V T: Faedril TC: few wounds EC: pretty hurt> Your bash at the first officer sends him sprawling.

< 197h/378H 145v/145V T: Faedril TC: few wounds EC: pretty hurt>
Fendoren starts casting an offensive spell.

< 197h/378H 145v/145V T: Faedril TC: few wounds EC: pretty hurt>
Nalar completes his spell...
Nalar utters the words, 'ghaiz gtui'
You feel your skin harden to stone.
Fendoren completes his spell...
Fendoren utters the words, 'ejgh oculozur'
Fendoren's whirling dust devil tears at the first officer's flesh.

< 197h/378H 145v/145V T: Faedril TC: few wounds EC: pretty hurt> grep

Seldrin completes his spell...
Seldrin utters the words, 'gsufuh xgruqt'
The first officer is stunned!
the first officer's body convulses with pain inflicted by Seldrin.

< 197h/378H 145v/145V T: Faedril TC: few wounds EC: pretty hurt> Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Nokie barely pierces the first officer.
Ladorn barely slashes the first officer.
Ladorn barely slashes the first officer.
Ladorn barely slashes the first officer.
Ladorn barely slashes the first officer.
Ladorn barely slashes the first officer.
You dodge the first officer's vicious attack.
The world starts spinning, and your ears are ringing!
The first officer smashes your throat, gasping and choking, you descend into darkness.
With a final blow, you feel yourself falling to the ground.
Your soul leaves your body in the cold sleep of death...
The world spins faster, and is that 'The Anvil Chorus?'
Your flesh loses it's stony texture.
gsay STONE OUT!!
The world speeds up around you.
gsay HASTE OUT!!
You feel less wooden.
gsay Bark Out!!
You feel less blessed.
gsay Bless Out!!
You feel less blessed.
gsay Bless Out!!

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Postby Todrael » Sat Jun 30, 2001 7:59 pm

I find it interesting that as a necromancer I have 80 more hps than you. I have, of course, geared my eq completely toward hps, and have 10 more levels, but still.. damn, I feel sorry for any drow or grey that tries to be a warrior. My troll friends have twice those hps at the same level.

-Todrael
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Postby Elseenas » Sat Jun 30, 2001 8:42 pm

Unfortunately Grey Elven and Drow Warriors can just never replace their Barbarian, Dwarf, and Troll counterparts.

*They don't do enough damage when they hit to counterbalance, even with the increased hit rate.

*They are more agile, but not agile enough to counteract the differance in hit points (particularly not at later level, when both are at -100 AC).

------------------

Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Sat Jun 30, 2001 9:08 pm

I guess grey elf warriors, who start out superior with their awesome ac and extra hitting power, pay for it in the end with their lack of hitpoints. The barbarians and dwarves probably were complaining that they couldn't tank or hit nearly as well when everyone was below level 30 or so.. I know on several occasions from level 1-35 I had an elf tank and their prowess as tank couldn't be matched by their slower barbarian and dwarf counterparts. It all balances out in the end, when everyone has enough gear to achieve -100 ac and the damage warriors do is less compared to casters and hitters.


Yayaril
Faedril
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Postby Faedril » Sat Jun 30, 2001 9:26 pm

hrm 3 hits? can someone check the critical hit stats on mobs agains lower str chars? This has cause Faedril more deaths this time than I can count. This wasn't a problem on Soj2.
< 333h/333H 145v/145V T: Faedril TC: excellent EC: few scratches> Someone shouts, 'Alright, we are ready to sail!'
Nokie barely pierces the vicious reaver.
Nokie barely pierces the vicious reaver.
Nokie barely pierces the vicious reaver.
Nokie barely pierces the vicious reaver.
Nokie barely pierces the vicious reaver.
You stagger from a fearsome hit from the vicious reaver!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
The vicious reaver half kills you with his mighty hit!
YIKES! Another hit like that, and you've had it!!
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!

The vicious reaver's final blow sends you to meet your maker.
With a final blow, you feel yourself falling to the ground.
Your soul leaves your body in the cold sleep of death...
The world starts spinning, and your ears are ringing!

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Postby Galok Icewolf » Sat Jun 30, 2001 10:14 pm

thats a reaver, they are notorius for hitting hard.
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Postby Faedril » Sat Jun 30, 2001 11:39 pm

Ok, I see I haven't gotten my point across.
Bottom line... this is a racist mud. Barbarians, Dwarves (mountain and duergar), Trolls and Ogres strive to oppress the warrior classes of all other races to the point where it has been hard coded into the mud system. They have stolen HP, Damroll, and abilities, leaving the small races the lure of AC and extra hits to get them through the lower levels, laughing at their follies and sneering at their meager abilities once these poor races reach mid levels. At which point these small warriors commit suicide hoping their spirits will be reincarnated as one of the "uber" warrior races if their waning energies can handle the pressures of *another* run for the high levels.

Humor aside, the race balance needs to have a good hard looking at. Especially if we start advertising for new players. I've played an Elf Warrior for 3 incarnations of the game. Trust me, when you are passed up for a barb 5 levels lower than you are, who is just as unknown to the group leader it gets really dissappointing. The extra hit code for small races was a nice attempt but just doesn't capture the intent it was coded for. Just log on and do a who warrior sort. You'll see a couple die hard grey elfs, some low level humans, and all the rest will be barbs, dwarves, ogres, and trolls.
Warrior Roles:
1: tanking - comprises of abilities, Armor Class, and hitpoints. After level 30 the only difference between races is hitpoints, and that is a *huge* difference.
2: bashing - 2nd most important role of a warrior. Big races can bash bigger mobs and due it better due to their size.
3: damage - help kill the mob and level. Pretty much on par across the board here.
Those is the basis of the warrior class.

Not to mention that all your important skills ar str based....

If the classes are intended to be a part of the race, they should be balance such that at high level the though of ugh 46 grey warrior, hrm are there any 35 barbs around... never crosses anyones mind.

Otherwise, classes should be removed from the races that it is too detrimental to players to play. This protects the interests of the players and will make for a happier playerbase in the long run.

I'll level Faedril to 40, then I'll either take an extended break waiting for races to be balanced or make a new char.
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Postby Faedril » Sat Jun 30, 2001 11:44 pm

Ooo Forgot one thing... Who all remembers in Sojourn 1 when they implemented the current HP/Con structure and all the grey elf/human etc warriors suddenly became the races they are now?

*wink*
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Postby Faedril » Sat Jun 30, 2001 11:44 pm

Woops duplicate

[This message has been edited by Faedril (edited 06-30-2001).]
Uthgar
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Postby Uthgar » Sun Jul 01, 2001 12:19 am

Faedril, there are some new elementalist spells coming up that may make the difference in hp far less significant than it is now. I'm hoping that at that point, elves will eb equally viable to barbarians, having a few less hp, but substantially better ac (and even at "-100" elven bonus from agility makes them harder to hit than dorfs and barbs).

Uthgar
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Jul 01, 2001 12:24 am

I'm tired of this racism! When will gnome warriors have their day in the sun? I demand that all races be equal!


Yayaril
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Postby Dinggle » Sun Jul 01, 2001 1:51 am

cherzra has posted plenty of logs of him having his butt chewed by a mob in three rounds, and he 40+ troll.


best warrior in long run is ogre really. most hp, highest str, no weaknesses to fire/acid.. they do have lower ac but let's face it at some point you become reliant on stone and i'm talking the long run not the first 20 levels Image
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Postby gnerble » Mon Jul 02, 2001 2:14 am

I know that this wipe around the gods have done a lot more with skills and attributes (dexterity, for example) to try and balance out the various races.

When it comes down to it, this is still a HP game. Hitpoints matter more than anything else at higher levels (ok that an save spell/breath) On Soj1 and Soj2 I played a halfing magic-user/enchanter because I enjoyed the RP aspect, and the challenge. I will argue that last wipe a halfing was harder to play than almost any evil, except snakes.

When it comes down to is that there are lots of "niche" race/class combinations that you can play to be unique. That doesn't mean that they aren't without their downsides! Christ, gnerble the enchanter had the mem times of an ogre shaman, and had almost 40 fewer hit points than a gnome/human at the same level. But damn if he wasn't fun to play. My nickname for a while was "one-cloud", you figure it out =P

Gnerbs Image
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Postby Sartorix » Mon Jul 02, 2001 8:48 am

Waa Waa Waa my ogre shaman has real slow mem times, please make it so that he mems just as fast as a duergar cleric please. all races should be suited equally for all classes. Waa Waa Waa
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Postby Frensolith » Mon Jul 02, 2001 9:44 am

Elf Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Frensolith
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Postby Vipplin » Mon Jul 02, 2001 11:25 am

Tank = Big and hard to kill. Fast helps.

I thought the extra attack was a good addition to make this role-playing niche more playable. IM(truly)HO I don't think elves should tank as well as barbs and dwarves.

I am curious whether the extra attack enables the same or more damage than a barb/dwarf? I just dunno. I think it should approximately even out their damage potential at high end levels at least (considering normal and crit hits).

Vipplin / Vadian
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Postby cherzra » Mon Jul 02, 2001 12:25 pm

That's pretty easy to answer. HP issue aside, if you get an extra attack once every 5 rounds, that's 50 extra damage. Let's say 5 rounds is a total of 7.5 attacks for a barb, that would make 8.5 for an elf. Assuming the barb has 45 damroll, the elf has 40 and they wield the same weapon, that's 7.5 x 45 = 337.5 dam for the barb and 8.5 x 40 = 340 dam for the elf. I don't know how often the extra attack lands and maybe their dex lets them get more ripostes, the above is just an example.
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Postby Ilshadrial » Mon Jul 02, 2001 12:48 pm

Uthgar,

I don't think an elementalist spell should be taken into consideration when it comes to race/class balance. I am sure whatever that spell does for the elf warrior will even do more for the other races warriors.

The race should be looked at, grey elves have always sucked on sojourn, except before the wipe of 94 when they had great con and Bjorte (grey) was one of the top warriors in the game on par with Serro (troll).

I remember when when they did the con conversion, Elvanshalee (40 grey warrior) lost almost half her hps, hence the start of Vrazel, my assassin.

In the end it all comes down who can take the area damage...

Ilshad
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Postby belleshel » Mon Jul 02, 2001 1:21 pm

I can't help but post this: http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000434.html when some of the real tanks were scared that the fringe races would make good tanks Image. Anyway the real question is...are we trying to make all races more generic? Going in everyone knew what race(s) made the best class(es), tanks need the hps, elves don't have them. The elf warriors we have here are really cool, mel/fae/fren, maybe a hidden bonus to size differences that ties in as well (a giant hitting an ogre should be simple, but trying to catch up to a halfling/elf..). I think elves were excited to hear that AC was going to mean something, but In all honesty Its still all about stoneskin/skills/hp. Not that I would complain if you wanted to give us highly magical races a perm prot_magic..or innate magic resistance Image,
Belle
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Postby Mplor » Mon Jul 02, 2001 4:44 pm

Uthgar,

So are Elementalists going to get a spell that turns a PC into elemental form temporarily? If not, let me suggest it. Even a 550hp elven warrior could tank pretty darn well in insubstantial form, taking only the diceroll damage from the mob. This would solve the main problem of the current conjurer class (sucky pets) while not losing the PC-tank focus.

Mplor blazes in from the west.
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Postby Selias » Mon Jul 02, 2001 5:00 pm

Well, I just have one question... it really doesn't affect the area-effect of low hps, but have you tested how long a grey elf stays stoned during battle compared to a dwarf/barb? I'm asking, because greys should have better dodge/parry skills.

Anyone know which race stone lasts longer on? Taking into account misses due to dodge/parry.
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Postby Ilshadrial » Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:04 pm

How long stone lasts is a moot point, consdiering once stone does fall, or you fail that parry/dodge you die in 3 hits or so.

Elf parry/dodge is not supreme...perhaps it could be increased, but then again, still a moot point, 3 hits = dead elf warrior Image

Ilshad
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Postby Blix » Mon Jul 02, 2001 8:07 pm

Guess I will chime in since I have grouped with Faedril and seen him tank. I will compare him to Garosh a Barb Warrior, Faedril gets hit MUCH less. It is completly noticable. But, when he does get hit, it is pretty much always straight to few wounds. So all in all, grey elf tanks suxor. Just too dangerous to watch the primary tank drop to awful in one round due to double crit.
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Postby cherzra » Mon Jul 02, 2001 8:19 pm

With a 200 hp vit, 40hp polkadot, 120 from amethysts and 450hp naked you should be able to tank quite well Image
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Postby belleshel » Mon Jul 02, 2001 8:53 pm

Of course 450 is well above a grey warriors naked average...so throw in another hp slot too... Image
And on the bright side, we still have more hps then the average caster...at least for a few more weeks Image
Belle

[This message has been edited by belleshel (edited 07-02-2001).]
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Postby Uthgar » Tue Jul 03, 2001 1:34 am

Mplor, something like that is coming, yes. I grouped with an elven warrior the other day to do exp, and I am convinced the elemental form will not be enough to fix elves (and other frail races) as warriors. Ilsha is right, they need some improvement irrelevant of what new spells are coming. I have some ideas, but I need to discuss them with the rest of the staff.

Uthgar
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Postby Sarell » Tue Jul 03, 2001 4:03 am

I have pondered this lots, and a paradox arises that you cant just increase how a certain skill works, and I think it would hurt to have a whole new bonus for elves.

So I think the solution would be to use formulas which make agility more of a commoditiy by making it a curve instead of a line...anyone with me>?.. So that instead of say the skill worked out by adding skills and stats, or basic multiplication use a log / such? This would place a human given 100 agi at the same spot as now, prolly would want to make barbs about the same, but then bake the incline increase substantially.

Not sure if it like this at all atm, but perhaps just make the curse steeper?

I played a barb warrior last few wipes, and personal distaste the fact that all my hard earnt warrior skills meant very little. In truth I would like to see these skills upped in usefulness across the board... how ever of course then it would make players better over all so options could be to *gasp*, reduce stone effectiveness (eeek), or change hitpoints the spells would have to be changed...*way too much eeek*. The problem that arises here however is that stone and a lot of HP is a good way to have a reliable tank. Making things skill dependent with current system would make combat risky? eg. Dang died cos missed all my parries...sigh...

So in turn the use of skills could be flattened out somewhat, so that while barbs are pretty good at dodging and such, elves are really good.

Hmmmmmm, is tricky indeed, it seems to me anything can give elves would be one of these risky bonuses? And reliance on yet another spell for tanking would increase the Wad of Meat factor for a warrior even more?

anyhow...enough rants Image

Safe travels
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Postby Treladian » Tue Jul 03, 2001 4:09 am

Cherzra: You're forgetting that the barb's gonna get more critical hits in and that an extra attack every 6th round is a VERY generous estimation of how often it kicks in, along the lines of a free lightning bolt eyepatch to every non-good hitter. Grey's have decent dex, but not that great compared to halflings. They're only a bit more dextrous than halfelves which don't get dex attacks. Since crits multiple damage by 3 or 4 times, an increased critical chance greatly evens the gap.

As it is, grey warriors are probably worse than halfling and gnome warriors since those two races get the same hitpoints as human warriors (the numbers required for max notch may be different, but they can get them), with the exception of being able to bash some bigger mobs (still two sizes smaller than human though, more than that apparently if they get a low weight for the race). They trade 100 hit points (2 con notches) for that. At level 50, a grey warrior will only break 400 hit points by less than 15 hitpoints on average. While the better ac and ability to avoid getting hit helps, that all gets thrown out when a mob gets a critical hit. Not only does the attack do more damage, but it WILL HIT since presumably critical hits bypass AC, parry, dodge, etc. so hitpoints are all that matter.

Halflings also are much more dextrous (2 notches more dextrous to be exact), but for tanking purposes that's not too big of an issue.
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Postby Xyd » Tue Jul 03, 2001 4:28 am

"I don't like the way this tastes."

Then don't eat it.

I got tired of seeing all the ways an elf cleric could die -- particularly to mobs that shouldn't be able to kill me -- so I stopped playing one as primary. Many of us here have been on this mud for many years and know the weaknesses of the different races and classes. Find the one you like and go with it. Roll another one that's different for some variety.

The thing is there will ALWAYS be some downside to the race or class you're playing. Clerics are high-demand but they blow solo. Elves are fun to play but they get wimpy hp's and are stuck on the island for 20 levels. Hell, Grey Elves almost qualify to be an evil race -- it's hardships at every turn!!

I guess I'm just saying to find what you like and go with it. Every race or class will have a downside and many of the names I see here should already know the downsides of their choices. And the real beauty is if you don't like your choice then rechoose. Image

BTW, I don't disagree that Elf Warriors have it tough in the hp dept. They need a skill (elfsong?) that will give them an edge to compensate for elfy hp's or maybe have the extra hit upped or get some dex bonus. And I also think elf clerics should be !bash !summon. Image

.xyd
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Postby Frensolith » Tue Jul 03, 2001 4:31 am

ok, I'm an elf warrior! *hi5 me* and well, i figure i'd offer my expert opinion on this matter.
However, i have a few questions i need answered before i can say for sure what really is goin on :P

1) Rumor has it, that the armor and barkskin
spells will make your ac actually be lower than -100, even though it wont show that. fact or fiction?

2) seems like the blur spell and displacement spells are supposed to make your ac "effectivy" lower than -100 if yer there already. i'm just not quite so sure on that.

3)When you get a msg saying u "parry" "dodge" and "shieldblock", does that mean the mob has actually "hit" you, as in it got past you armor class? :P cause if thats true, than AC seems to not be quite as good and it was talked up to me, seeing how i was fighting a mob in a grid zone, and out of about 55 attacks, he "missed" me twice.
And i had -100. But i'll have to play around with that a little more.

4) This one isnt realyl a question, but 300 hp crits really suck when u have 354 natural hps at level 37 :P


So ya, Fill me in on this stuff so i can play around and see how my elf is doin at this point.

Frensolith, Elven Warrior

PS: its practiacally impossible to tell how often the extra attack kicks in, cause i have no way to determine the difference between a double attack, and the extra attack, unless they both happen at same time :P




[This message has been edited by Frensolith (edited 07-03-2001).]
Frensolith
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Postby Frensolith » Tue Jul 03, 2001 4:34 am

OH, and another thing, Why elf hitpoints are quite slim, I really cant see how adding more Hitpoints can be good. If you did, we'd be on same par as human warriors. And that just doesn't seem quite right to me.

Frensolith
silvea
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Postby silvea » Tue Jul 03, 2001 7:03 am

just an idea to make grey elves and other low hp races more usefull. Let agi count in for more, so a high agi will prevent critic hits.
A critic hit is nothing more then a very HARD hit, bypassing armor. (platemail, helmets, etc) But agility and dodge should still work. So high agi races can dodge critic blow and prevent the massive dammage. This would be very usefull against thoes continious critic mobs (NPC ogres I seen crit every 2e or 3th hit in some zones, making stoneskin even useless).
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Postby Kaeldar » Tue Jul 03, 2001 7:15 am

I have to totally disagree with makin agi help more. You bloody elves already get much better mem times than us humans, and you should die faster for it. it's a balance issue. If you take all the pain outa playin an elf then there'd be no reason not to play one and everyone would be playing them.

And ppl like me who put up with slow memtimes would get bitter, if we all died jsut as quick

Kaeldar Kalaze
Human and proud


------------------
What did you expect?
Garosh
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Postby Garosh » Tue Jul 03, 2001 1:21 pm

Things that make me go..What the heck are you talking about? Image

As I understand it, Elves have a higher resistance to spells magic, have high wisdom, high intelligence, the Best agility in game, great Charisma, better than human dexterity, and Only 1 or 2 less points of damage from strength than other warriors of the goodie denomination. Their con is a couple points below. Big whoop. Add in infravision and forest sneak as a couple bonuses too.
In the beginning as a Warrior you can easily triump over stuff that a barb or dwarf would have troubles with.
Starting off with an Ac nekkid of 49 is nothing to be scoffed at. Best a barb gets is a 70, and I believe a dwarf gets an 80.
Thats like having a barkskin on your butt all the time, with the added benefit of being able to get a barkskin Image
An Elf can also play just about every class available. Dwarves and Barbarians, not so, not even close.
The balance of the ac loses its luster later in life, when the barbs and dwarves are able to drop their ac to -100 too, until then the barbs and dwarves are suffering.

Elves have less hps in the end, which doesnt make them prime Tanks, since major damage higher up will be coming from AoE spells (But they still fair better than Troll warriors under all those fire aoe's)
This is a 2 edged sword, but Elves have an entire island to themselves till higher level as well, they are the only race (and half elves) allowed in lueithispar, I dont know of many other citys with Outcast on every race but one of their kind. They also have elf gates that let you pop into waterdeep within about a minute, so in effect, after 20th level, WD is a hometown too. Barbs and Dwarves have a 15 minute walk back from their hometowns to Wd when they bite the big one.

The idea of balancing an elven warrior with a barbarian warrior or dwarven warrior seems to already be in place. Its just a barbarian/dwarf warrior is more group friendly in higher level zones, just because of hps, which is an elf's only drawback, one that is KNown since the beginning of your characters life.

If you want to be balanced to a barbarian, sacrifice about 30 points of your AC(those free agility agility ac points) gear and put on HP gear. instead of those shiny golden rings, wear Scarlet rings, bam 50 hps.
Keep doing this and you will be as big as a barb warrior in no time. Have better saves, have better agility, have a bit less damage (gee they are weaker go figure) Have better dex and slightly more attacks.

The way I see it, there is equipment out there that you use to compensate for your weaknesses. I personally dont have perfect stats across the boat, in fact they are barely good. So using equipment for my weaknesses is the way of the game, its about balancing your own personal stuff.

As far as Hardcoding a nekkid elf to be equal to a nekkid elf, I think they are already pretty well balanced. Use your imagination and some eq to balance out your Hps, since as I see it, thats the only weakness of an Elf in the end.

Garosh the Barbarian
Faedril
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Postby Faedril » Tue Jul 03, 2001 3:47 pm

Blix summed it up quite well:
So all in all, grey elf tanks suxor. Just too dangerous to watch the primary tank drop to awful in one round due to double crit.
End Quote.

People don't play Sojourn to be levels 1-30 for the first incarnation of the mud. Those are the levels that grey elves have an ac advantage. And thats only before higher level equipment is done. (ie later in the muds life, ac equipment and stuff that we battled over in the mud's infancy is extremely common and people hand it out like candy at Halloween.)

When you are zoning, every warrior is expected to be able to be the primary tank. Thats why you take more than one.

Would you take a warrior zoning who couldn't tank?

If you can't zone, how do you get the eq. you need to be able to zone? (catch 22) I don't see amy rings being sold for a long time =).

Also, there aren't any steps between scarlets/dwarf plate and perfect gear. You either have one or the other. with 2 scarlets and dwarf plate faedril would have 414 hp at level 38. Thats still not enough to tank. You need to be able to get to around 500 hp for xp tanking and 600-700 hp for zoning. (thats without vit.) Plus all that HP gear an elf warrior wants to wear, barbs and dwarfs end up wearing to. That widens the gap even further. One example would be for small warrior crutches to be made. (humor example here) gauntlets of shortness: ac 8 15 hp 2 damroll !barb !dwarf !ogre !troll warrior/rogue only.

From what I understand, in the interest of adding Flavor to the mud, the warriors of races other than barb/dwarf ogre/troll were supposed to be made viable for high level play. That way when brand new newbie rolls char #1, he doesn't have to drop it and roll a new char and level all over again to be able to get groups. It would also help newbies when starting out as there would be tanks from all hometowns. How much would that help the newbie snake/grey elf/gnome/halfling/drow caster to have a warrior around who will tank for them?

They don't need to be as good as barb/dwarf tanks... they need to just not suck so bad that everyone tells you go roll barb or a dwarf or passes you over for barb/dwarf tank who is of lower level.

I don't play a grey because its the best in the game. I play it because thats the character I want to play. Just like I'm sure there are people out there who would like to play warriors of the other races. But its pretty darned frustrating to the point of dropping the character when you are so bad off no one wants you. Racial balance right now is extreme to the point of each class having one or two perfect super races and all the other races suck for the class.

On the subject of hometowns and such. GN is an *awesome* hometown. It has better stuff than all of Evermeet put together. Starting out on EM is more of a disadvantage than advantage. For 20 levels you don't have access to any eq or groups from the mainland. Also, while it may be a short walk from EM to WD, Its a short walk I do make *Alot*.
Garosh
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Postby Garosh » Tue Jul 03, 2001 5:29 pm

I dont understand why an elven warrior should be an equal of a barbarian or dwarf warrior. Its clearly stated all over ever help file that Elf's have less con and str.
To most people that means.. Hey, these arent exactly Ideal Warriors.
For the role playing fanatics out there, go for it!
Otherwise if you want to balance them, then drop Elve's int in half, wisdom in half, so you can learn skills at a dogass slow rate.
Drop their agility in half as well while you are at it, so its equal to a dwarves.

Simple fact is: Warriors in sojourn are meat shields at higher levels. Something with less than great con is not a meat shield.
How many wizards and priests want to be rescued by someone with less hps then they have? not many.

With all the advantages of the grey elf, they make the other classes they can play pretty great. Warriors No. Each race has its benefits, in my opinion an Elves only drawback is Hps, all their other stats seem to be over powered.

Flame on!
If you want to see an underbalanced race look at Barbs. 1 point more str than human(not as strong as a dwarf), 1 more con, less int, agility, wisdom, and prolly chr.
no Infravision. And we get bodyslam...handy tank skill if you want to watch your stoneskin get blown through on a miss :-P


Garosh
Niple
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Postby Niple » Tue Jul 03, 2001 6:02 pm

Well put Garosh. I agree completely. Grey elf warriors should not even be close to the be all, end all of warriors.

Think about it, Grey elves would have developed warriors out of necessity, not choice.

My 2 cents...
Vipplin
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Postby Vipplin » Tue Jul 03, 2001 6:23 pm

Lookout... this became long.

(1) I don't think all races should be the same competency at all available classes.

(2) I don't think newer players have a great feel for which races are best for which classes, who has the most hps, best ac, etc. They should be given more info up front.

(3) I like all the race/class combos. The more the merrier, great role-playing opportunities.

Now, more detail:

(1) I think if you want to tank like a barb and live the rp and innates of an elf, then you are going to need two characters. Different races do and should have different strengths. Elves have great quickness, and the extra attacks and increased AC effect accentuate those traits. Much improvement for a fun race/class combo.

No, halflings, elves, dwarves, barbs, humans, gnomes... I really don't see a realistic world where they can all tank a dragon just as well. Sure, a halfling can dodge out of the way better than a barb... but that should mean mobs would switch to other party members more, shouldn't it?

Maybe all races should be equally good at soloing as warriors, just for the mud's sake. Even that is a stretch, though. I think some races are just more brainy, some quick, some strong, and combos thereof. Each has its own strengths and those lend themselves to certain classes. That's the way it should be.

(2) Now, that said, I think it isn't fair for someone to find that out after they've spent a lot of time on a character. For some people, they won't care, they'll just take it as a challenge and role-play it (as I recall, Cyric's cleric Burunga had a "bad" constitution his whole life... way to go!). Others want their char to be the pinnacle of performance, and want to be the uber-race for their class.

We should have detailed info available during the roll-up menus so that both types of players can make informed choices. Yes, you can tell from the info there now that barbs will be good warriors, but you can't really compare well.

I don't see the harm in posting charts on which races rank where regarding the stats. Also, under each class, something like, "agility helps armor class, and is important for low to mid-level warriors, whereas constitution is more important for high level warriors." Do this for each important stat (or every stat) for each class. Also, mention which skills rely on which stats. People shouldn't have to find out later that they screwed the pooch on the roller for their favorite skill (who knew archery would be wisdom-based? Doh!)

I'd like to be able to look and see "ok, gnomes will have better mem times, but then humans don't get moderate load from 3 rations... hmmm..." The general race descriptions just don't do the reality justice.

Yep, you should also have a statement somewhere saying, "if you play an off-strength race for its class, then you may expect to have both interesting role-playing opportunities and more DIFFICULTY. Your race's strengths and weaknesses WILL effect your overall effectiveness."

(3) All this said, I think as long as everyone knows what they're getting into up front, let's let all the class/race combos that could possibly make sense be allowed. More role-play fun and variation. Heck I'd like to play a barb invoker... to heck with hp gear! "gsay 20 minutes until memmed" Image

Sorry so long, I hope something interesting was in there.

Vipplin

[This message has been edited by Vipplin (edited 07-03-2001).]
Faedril
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Postby Faedril » Tue Jul 03, 2001 6:58 pm

Well i Tried to word that reply so no one took it as a flame.... Sheesh

Here's my point, dried out and made simple.

I'm not lobbying for small races to be better or even equal to big races. I'm lobbying to make it so people can play them to high levels and have a char that is group viable. Period.
Niple
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Postby Niple » Tue Jul 03, 2001 7:13 pm

Honestly I believe that you will always have your 'niche' classes, I.E. grey elf/halfling warrior. These race/class combos IMHO will always take a backseat to your primary tanking race/warriors (dorf,barb,troll,ogre).

With these 'niche' race/classes you end up with a high RP value, but not really a worthwhile 'zone group' character. I'm sure there will always be groups that are into RP that will accept these characters but reinterating what was posted earlier, high level zone groups will most likely continue to pass up these race/class combos for more valuable group members.
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Postby Lyt » Tue Jul 03, 2001 8:52 pm

I love barbarian warriors because I can bodyslam, I have a good con, and my strength is good. But on the flip side I hate not having innate infra, or the ability to sneak. Plus my dodge and parry just aren't as good as those of some more agile races

Elves have those, and then they have their drawbacks. You can't make all races the same in everything, because then you might as well take out all races and make everyone be human. As far as the whole deal with elves hit points, when I lead zones, I always ask warriors based on what level they are, and not race. Just ask Frensolith. He must have done Vault with me 30 times last wipe. I just wanted someone who could bash and shieldpunch, and those skills are level based, and not race based for the most part. I honestly don't think elves need anything else, and would be rather sad if they were given a hit point bonus, because then I would start asking for infravision innate for my barbie warrior! Image

Lyt
Uthgar
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Postby Uthgar » Wed Jul 04, 2001 1:24 am

To answer Faedril's question earlier: (trying to be as cryptic as I can. =P)

1. Fact
2. Fact
3. Think about the act of dodging. You dodge out of the way before the armor you are wearing even comes into play.
4. Yep, but a change is coming to help that.

Uthgar
Frensolith
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Postby Frensolith » Wed Jul 04, 2001 2:01 am

Ya mean my questions uthgar? :P
If so, sounds good Image

Frensolith

[This message has been edited by Frensolith (edited 07-03-2001).]
Uthgar
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Postby Uthgar » Wed Jul 04, 2001 3:25 am

Whoops! All elfs look alike to me.

*duck*

Uthgar
Frensolith
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Postby Frensolith » Wed Jul 04, 2001 8:48 am

Well, got a follow up question then real quick:

Since armor/barkskin help out past -100, can equipment get u past -100 as well? :P


Frensolith
Vipplin
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Postby Vipplin » Wed Jul 04, 2001 12:55 pm

Okay, which classes are "high agility" classes? Sounds like a fair fix was implemented to me.
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Postby Dinggle » Wed Jul 04, 2001 5:53 pm

high agility - elves (all), halflings, gnomes, and trolls too
Lyt
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Postby Lyt » Wed Jul 04, 2001 7:08 pm

Why trolls are highly agile is beyond me.

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