Because they really are maybe?
Why halflings have great dex is beyond me.
Why ogres have great con is beyond me.
Why humans can be all classes is beyond me.
Why drow have great int is beyond me.
Why dwarves are short is beyond me.
etc.
Beating a dead Elf...
Just wanted to post here, the topic of this thread just looked like a hell of a good time!!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Topic: Beating a dead Elf...
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Werg says 'is it dead? poke it with a stick'
Ombul says 'no you poke it!'
Sszantiel says 'fine you wussies, I'LL poke it'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Topic: Beating a dead Elf...
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Werg says 'is it dead? poke it with a stick'
Ombul says 'no you poke it!'
Sszantiel says 'fine you wussies, I'LL poke it'
Lyt: Maybe so they can run away from fire faster?
It does look like I guessed right on the fact that critical hits NEVER missing were a big part of the issue. All the agility, parrying, and doding in the world wouldn't help you against a critical before (making elf ac entirely moot in the face of a hit that could take off 95% of your hps AND NEVER MISS).
It does look like I guessed right on the fact that critical hits NEVER missing were a big part of the issue. All the agility, parrying, and doding in the world wouldn't help you against a critical before (making elf ac entirely moot in the face of a hit that could take off 95% of your hps AND NEVER MISS).
Heheh.. nods. But I think the whole point of A crit is that it _is_ a hit. How much would it suck for us to be getting crits but miss on them :P
You score a CRITICAL HIT!
You miss <mob> with your slash.
rofl :P
I think having the higher agi avoid the crits from happening in the first place will help though
You score a CRITICAL HIT!
You miss <mob> with your slash.
rofl :P
I think having the higher agi avoid the crits from happening in the first place will help though
-
Ilshadrial
- Sojourner
- Posts: 417
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Atlanta
- Contact:
On this issue, I am stongly oppose to these fragile races or high agi races what ever you wanna call them, they get less hitpoints than other races, and they should die easier.
Plain and simple it's not fair to the other races. It's unbalancing to make up for there frailness.
Elven warrior vs. barb/dwarf warrior
if you round it out so the agi makes up for loss of hitpoints, what is the point in playin a dwarf or a barb, since elves already get better natuaral ac and possibly additional attacks.
Elven caster vs. human caster
I play a human caster because they get more hitpoints. I'm willing to put up with worse memtimes for higher survivability. But hey now if elves are gettin a good chance to avoid taken extra dmg, that really evens out the difference to the point, where why the hell would anyone play a stupid human, and suffer long mems when you could just be a nimble quick witted elf.
Troll warrior
am I the only one that thinks giving one of the best warrior races in the game the ability to shrug crits is just a tad bit imbalancing?
I think things are pretty much balanced already, all the races have there ups and downs, and there seems to be a pretty fair distribution of races and classes so far.
Maybe I'm dilusional, but I recall the phrase you can't have your cake and eat it too. if you wanna play a tank with the highest survivibility tankin, don't play and elf. The races that have higher hitpoints PAY A PRICE for it, and elves should pay a prices for the benefits in ac and the high dex additional attack.
Crist are suppose to hurt.
Kaeldar Kalaze
You don't hear me complaining about human memtimes suck it up!
seriously no offence meant to any players who play elves, I just feel that humans and other races are being treated unfairly by giving high agility races even more benefit than what they already get for their agility.
------------------
What did you expect?
Plain and simple it's not fair to the other races. It's unbalancing to make up for there frailness.
Elven warrior vs. barb/dwarf warrior
if you round it out so the agi makes up for loss of hitpoints, what is the point in playin a dwarf or a barb, since elves already get better natuaral ac and possibly additional attacks.
Elven caster vs. human caster
I play a human caster because they get more hitpoints. I'm willing to put up with worse memtimes for higher survivability. But hey now if elves are gettin a good chance to avoid taken extra dmg, that really evens out the difference to the point, where why the hell would anyone play a stupid human, and suffer long mems when you could just be a nimble quick witted elf.
Troll warrior
am I the only one that thinks giving one of the best warrior races in the game the ability to shrug crits is just a tad bit imbalancing?
I think things are pretty much balanced already, all the races have there ups and downs, and there seems to be a pretty fair distribution of races and classes so far.
Maybe I'm dilusional, but I recall the phrase you can't have your cake and eat it too. if you wanna play a tank with the highest survivibility tankin, don't play and elf. The races that have higher hitpoints PAY A PRICE for it, and elves should pay a prices for the benefits in ac and the high dex additional attack.
Crist are suppose to hurt.
Kaeldar Kalaze
You don't hear me complaining about human memtimes suck it up!
seriously no offence meant to any players who play elves, I just feel that humans and other races are being treated unfairly by giving high agility races even more benefit than what they already get for their agility.
------------------
What did you expect?
-
Ilshadrial
- Sojourner
- Posts: 417
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Atlanta
- Contact:
Hey I can assure you that the less chance of taking a crit is not that big of a deal. I seem to get critted just as much with a -100 ac and 100 agi.
As for trolls taking less crits, I am sure the coder who wrote the code for the AGI less crit thing would have put in a variable to exclude the troll race.
Cherza you notice if you take less crits?
As for trolls taking less crits, I am sure the coder who wrote the code for the AGI less crit thing would have put in a variable to exclude the troll race.
Cherza you notice if you take less crits?
I've only been on once since the changes and yes I seemed to get less OUCH messages than before. The amount before was ridiculous.
As for all this talk -again- about trolls being uber blah blah, you know what? We did DK vault last night, and all the trolls except me died. There's this nice thing called incendiary cloud which every high level mob always happens to cast which really seems to like green flesh.
Why don't you get on the case of ogres, just to name something? They never die when mobs cloud, they eat 200hp max and laugh at us. They get 100hp more than dwarves/barbs, they can't be bashed, they can bash better than any other race, they get 4/10 *naked*, they have an easy as hell hometown and can get to DK or BG in 5 mins. Or drow elves? They get the best int in the game, they get grey elf agility, they get a whole page of innates and they have the easiest hometown in the game! Really sometimes it seems as though people just can't say anything without asking to get someone else downgraded, and it's always the same thing they complain about. Do you hear evils complaining about halflings? Who get human constitution, an extra attack every other round, 10/4 naked and even got their hometown moved so it's one step away from WD? Or about the fact that yuan-tis suck? Or about the fact that goodies have a plethora of classes available that we don't?
Geez people. Lighten up. Trolls don't own the world. Regen is nice at lvl 1-30 but it really doesn't do dick at 40+. FYI I have 60ac 3/6 naked. Give a barb or dwarf barkskin (which evils don't have) and you're the same. Go pick on something else.
As for all this talk -again- about trolls being uber blah blah, you know what? We did DK vault last night, and all the trolls except me died. There's this nice thing called incendiary cloud which every high level mob always happens to cast which really seems to like green flesh.
Why don't you get on the case of ogres, just to name something? They never die when mobs cloud, they eat 200hp max and laugh at us. They get 100hp more than dwarves/barbs, they can't be bashed, they can bash better than any other race, they get 4/10 *naked*, they have an easy as hell hometown and can get to DK or BG in 5 mins. Or drow elves? They get the best int in the game, they get grey elf agility, they get a whole page of innates and they have the easiest hometown in the game! Really sometimes it seems as though people just can't say anything without asking to get someone else downgraded, and it's always the same thing they complain about. Do you hear evils complaining about halflings? Who get human constitution, an extra attack every other round, 10/4 naked and even got their hometown moved so it's one step away from WD? Or about the fact that yuan-tis suck? Or about the fact that goodies have a plethora of classes available that we don't?
Geez people. Lighten up. Trolls don't own the world. Regen is nice at lvl 1-30 but it really doesn't do dick at 40+. FYI I have 60ac 3/6 naked. Give a barb or dwarf barkskin (which evils don't have) and you're the same. Go pick on something else.
Nods.. I don't like seeing anyone downgraded either.
Personally I think Grey warriors should be good tanks, but -not- as good as your dwarfs or barbs. It comes down to the hps.. even if Greys' agi bonus lets them get hit and crit less, they still have less hps. And when you're fighting !bash caster mobs, you want the tank to have the highest hps possible, so they can eat a couple area spells and not get wacked.. since when the primary tank dies, the group is usually screwed or going to be really hurting.
Anyway, what I would like to see is the changes make higher lvl greys a good option as an alternate tank, or a tank for certain mobs (warrior mobs or soemthing for example), or be able to tank for a little while after rescuing someone. I don't think its going to change the fact that dwarfs and barbs will usually be the primary tank in high lvl zones however.
Personally I think Grey warriors should be good tanks, but -not- as good as your dwarfs or barbs. It comes down to the hps.. even if Greys' agi bonus lets them get hit and crit less, they still have less hps. And when you're fighting !bash caster mobs, you want the tank to have the highest hps possible, so they can eat a couple area spells and not get wacked.. since when the primary tank dies, the group is usually screwed or going to be really hurting.
Anyway, what I would like to see is the changes make higher lvl greys a good option as an alternate tank, or a tank for certain mobs (warrior mobs or soemthing for example), or be able to tank for a little while after rescuing someone. I don't think its going to change the fact that dwarfs and barbs will usually be the primary tank in high lvl zones however.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kaeldar:
<B>On this issue, I am stongly oppose to these fragile races or high agi races what ever you wanna call them, they get less hitpoints than other races, and they should die easier.
Plain and simple it's not fair to the other races. It's unbalancing to make up for there frailness.
Elven warrior vs. barb/dwarf warrior
if you round it out so the agi makes up for loss of hitpoints, what is the point in playin a dwarf or a barb, since elves already get better natuaral ac and possibly additional attacks.
Elven caster vs. human caster
I play a human caster because they get more hitpoints. I'm willing to put up with worse memtimes for higher survivability. But hey now if elves are gettin a good chance to avoid taken extra dmg, that really evens out the difference to the point, where why the hell would anyone play a stupid human, and suffer long mems when you could just be a nimble quick witted elf.
Troll warrior
am I the only one that thinks giving one of the best warrior races in the game the ability to shrug crits is just a tad bit imbalancing?
I think things are pretty much balanced already, all the races have there ups and downs, and there seems to be a pretty fair distribution of races and classes so far.
Maybe I'm dilusional, but I recall the phrase you can't have your cake and eat it too. if you wanna play a tank with the highest survivibility tankin, don't play and elf. The races that have higher hitpoints PAY A PRICE for it, and elves should pay a prices for the benefits in ac and the high dex additional attack.
Crist are suppose to hurt.
Kaeldar Kalaze
You don't hear me complaining about human memtimes suck it up!
seriously no offence meant to any players who play elves, I just feel that humans and other races are being treated unfairly by giving high agility races even more benefit than what they already get for their agility.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed...this is a bad fix, for a problem that doesnt even exist.
Basically if this lets elves shrug off crits, they'll prolly rarely get hurt in melee combat.
As it is, as a Barb I may take 3 or 4 crits in a long drawn out battle, ranging from 100-275. Along with Stoneskin, an elf pretty much wont take squat for damage now. Doesnt seem like there is a risk, except now it will be the High Hp Meat shields taking it in the ass.
Beyond Agility helping out with dodge and other defensive skills, adding a whole new realm of Avoiding critical hits is ludicrious. A critical hit, is just that.. A HIT, not something you dodge. Fighting mobs with high agility, basically will nullify my crits, as wimpy as they already were. Thank you for negating my strength bonus to crit.
Garosh
<B>On this issue, I am stongly oppose to these fragile races or high agi races what ever you wanna call them, they get less hitpoints than other races, and they should die easier.
Plain and simple it's not fair to the other races. It's unbalancing to make up for there frailness.
Elven warrior vs. barb/dwarf warrior
if you round it out so the agi makes up for loss of hitpoints, what is the point in playin a dwarf or a barb, since elves already get better natuaral ac and possibly additional attacks.
Elven caster vs. human caster
I play a human caster because they get more hitpoints. I'm willing to put up with worse memtimes for higher survivability. But hey now if elves are gettin a good chance to avoid taken extra dmg, that really evens out the difference to the point, where why the hell would anyone play a stupid human, and suffer long mems when you could just be a nimble quick witted elf.
Troll warrior
am I the only one that thinks giving one of the best warrior races in the game the ability to shrug crits is just a tad bit imbalancing?
I think things are pretty much balanced already, all the races have there ups and downs, and there seems to be a pretty fair distribution of races and classes so far.
Maybe I'm dilusional, but I recall the phrase you can't have your cake and eat it too. if you wanna play a tank with the highest survivibility tankin, don't play and elf. The races that have higher hitpoints PAY A PRICE for it, and elves should pay a prices for the benefits in ac and the high dex additional attack.
Crist are suppose to hurt.
Kaeldar Kalaze
You don't hear me complaining about human memtimes suck it up!
seriously no offence meant to any players who play elves, I just feel that humans and other races are being treated unfairly by giving high agility races even more benefit than what they already get for their agility.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed...this is a bad fix, for a problem that doesnt even exist.
Basically if this lets elves shrug off crits, they'll prolly rarely get hurt in melee combat.
As it is, as a Barb I may take 3 or 4 crits in a long drawn out battle, ranging from 100-275. Along with Stoneskin, an elf pretty much wont take squat for damage now. Doesnt seem like there is a risk, except now it will be the High Hp Meat shields taking it in the ass.
Beyond Agility helping out with dodge and other defensive skills, adding a whole new realm of Avoiding critical hits is ludicrious. A critical hit, is just that.. A HIT, not something you dodge. Fighting mobs with high agility, basically will nullify my crits, as wimpy as they already were. Thank you for negating my strength bonus to crit.
Garosh
There is already a skill called DODGE, which is based heavily on agility anyway.
Now I guess Elves get a new skill SUPER dodge. So effectively they get 2 dodge attempts?
Also, as I recall..the hps difference at lower levels wasnt tooo huge between elves, dwarves, barbs..you dont really notice it much till a lil higher up. But I do know that most of my lower level deaths were caused by crits. So this is more than a High level Elf 'fix', its across the board.
Someone loves elves a wee bit too much up there I'm thinking
Garosh
[This message has been edited by Garosh (edited 07-05-2001).]
Now I guess Elves get a new skill SUPER dodge. So effectively they get 2 dodge attempts?
Also, as I recall..the hps difference at lower levels wasnt tooo huge between elves, dwarves, barbs..you dont really notice it much till a lil higher up. But I do know that most of my lower level deaths were caused by crits. So this is more than a High level Elf 'fix', its across the board.
Someone loves elves a wee bit too much up there I'm thinking
Garosh
[This message has been edited by Garosh (edited 07-05-2001).]
It could be just me, but in most fantasy novels and stories, when elven homelands get invaded, it's usually to a ratio of 5 or 10 to one bad guy vs. elf. Ever notice how badass elves are? They can fight, they can move well, in every fantasy setting I've seen, elves are just badass warriors, with few to match them. Mainly cuz you can't hit the damn things. So to me, these changes seem warranted. They still have way fewer hps, but maybe now they'll have more of a purpose.
dodging of critical hits is retarded, I'll tell you why.. it has NOTHING to do with the player thats being hit. Its all about the NPC strength and the magical-never-seen dice.
Not saying that grey elves dont need some kind of boost but I really dont think this is it.
as for trolls ( i dont even know who brought it up... ) but fire damage DOES hurt. regen DOES rock (yes even 40+) and NO they dont need any downgrades.
Nitania
upon reading my post.. it sounded rude, sorry! I hate it when I sound rude when not meaning to
[This message has been edited by Nitania (edited 07-05-2001).]
Not saying that grey elves dont need some kind of boost but I really dont think this is it.
as for trolls ( i dont even know who brought it up... ) but fire damage DOES hurt. regen DOES rock (yes even 40+) and NO they dont need any downgrades.
Nitania
upon reading my post.. it sounded rude, sorry! I hate it when I sound rude when not meaning to
[This message has been edited by Nitania (edited 07-05-2001).]
As I read through this topic, my thoughts seemed to follow the same vein as Ssara's. There seems to be a basic, set theme in fantasy novels regarding the different races in battle.
Elves:
Hard as hell to hit, extraordinary fighters, lithe, agile, excellently trained, even if we're not offered the option to become bladesingers. The drawbacks are that when they are hit, it's very often critically, unless it's a primary character in the story. Elves die easily unless they stay out of the way of weapons.
Larger Races(this is for you Cherzra):
Big and ugly makes for an easier target (ugly counts for any non-elven race, though), but in the stories, it's the dwarves, trolls, and ogres that could get hit again and again and come back and ask 'More, please,' with cracktoothed grins on their faces.
Basically, more hitpoints simply reflects how much damage the race can take before death occurs. We might not all smile when we get hit, but the more hitpoints we have left after the damage is done, the wider our grins will probably be. As an elven rogue, if I am tanking, it's doubtful I'm smiling after a crit, more than likely I'm dead, or coming close. My dodge should reflect how I stay out of the way of damage, but if the enemy is lucky or skilled enough to critically injure me, there are good odds I'm going down. Larger races can take those critical hits and come back for more.
If I put a 3 inch deep, 6 inch wide gash in your belly, would it come closer to being fatal for you if you were 5'4" 145 lbs, or 6'6" 345 lbs? More surface mass is typically easier to hit, but more difficult to connect with vital areas. I know I die easily if I get hit, that's the chances I take.
There are two factors that should be reflected by a critical hit.
1. Always managing to connect on a critical hit.
2. Doing critical damage on a critical hit.
Do both of these factors come into play here? I don't know how the system works enough to know. It's just my opinion that the two should be completely separate. Just because a two year old actually manages to swing and connect his fist with my eye when my attention is diverted doesn't mean I've been permanently blinded. Chance to hit, chance to critically damage.
Just blathering on,
Ash
Elves:
Hard as hell to hit, extraordinary fighters, lithe, agile, excellently trained, even if we're not offered the option to become bladesingers. The drawbacks are that when they are hit, it's very often critically, unless it's a primary character in the story. Elves die easily unless they stay out of the way of weapons.
Larger Races(this is for you Cherzra):
Big and ugly makes for an easier target (ugly counts for any non-elven race, though), but in the stories, it's the dwarves, trolls, and ogres that could get hit again and again and come back and ask 'More, please,' with cracktoothed grins on their faces.
Basically, more hitpoints simply reflects how much damage the race can take before death occurs. We might not all smile when we get hit, but the more hitpoints we have left after the damage is done, the wider our grins will probably be. As an elven rogue, if I am tanking, it's doubtful I'm smiling after a crit, more than likely I'm dead, or coming close. My dodge should reflect how I stay out of the way of damage, but if the enemy is lucky or skilled enough to critically injure me, there are good odds I'm going down. Larger races can take those critical hits and come back for more.
If I put a 3 inch deep, 6 inch wide gash in your belly, would it come closer to being fatal for you if you were 5'4" 145 lbs, or 6'6" 345 lbs? More surface mass is typically easier to hit, but more difficult to connect with vital areas. I know I die easily if I get hit, that's the chances I take.
There are two factors that should be reflected by a critical hit.
1. Always managing to connect on a critical hit.
2. Doing critical damage on a critical hit.
Do both of these factors come into play here? I don't know how the system works enough to know. It's just my opinion that the two should be completely separate. Just because a two year old actually manages to swing and connect his fist with my eye when my attention is diverted doesn't mean I've been permanently blinded. Chance to hit, chance to critically damage.
Just blathering on,
Ash
I haven't had a chance to read the actual news yet, so maybe my question is already answered (I can't check the news from work).
I'm wondering if dodge is even checked when a crit is rolled. I'm assuming it's checked when a regular hit is rolled to see if you can dodge an attack that would normally hit. If dodge isn't checked when a crit is rolled, then it should, because your dodge skill should come into effect only if a hit is rolled.
So is dodge checked when a critical hit is rolled? If not, then it should be, because the hit would only be critical if it was landed.
Does this make sense?
Sel
I'm wondering if dodge is even checked when a crit is rolled. I'm assuming it's checked when a regular hit is rolled to see if you can dodge an attack that would normally hit. If dodge isn't checked when a crit is rolled, then it should, because your dodge skill should come into effect only if a hit is rolled.
So is dodge checked when a critical hit is rolled? If not, then it should be, because the hit would only be critical if it was landed.
Does this make sense?
Sel
Ok I've got a couple extremely OVERSENSITIVE trolls mad at me now :P
1.hey I luv you guys don't get mad
2.I'm allowed to have an opinion
3.I in NO WAY attacked trolls, calm down and re-read
I think trolls are a very good warrior class with alot of good warrior traits, and one extremely big con to make up for them. I think they are balanced. Giving them the ability to shrug crits is unfair to othere races same as giving it to elves.
Charzra plz don't complain about trolls, if you think ogres are so great play an ogre. I know you play a troll cause you like trolls better. My post could not even be consider an attack on trolls by a half drunked learning disabled child. I know you speak so fervently because you feel strongly and love your race/class so much. Reread what I wrote, I have nothing against trolls, nor did I attack them.
I used a lot of sarcasm in my post, it's meant to be funny. porlly isn't oh well, don't get mad, or I'll keel you
Kaeldar Kalaze
Former Troll warrior lvl 40
------------------
What did you expect?
[This message has been edited by Kaeldar (edited 07-05-2001).]
1.hey I luv you guys don't get mad
2.I'm allowed to have an opinion
3.I in NO WAY attacked trolls, calm down and re-read
I think trolls are a very good warrior class with alot of good warrior traits, and one extremely big con to make up for them. I think they are balanced. Giving them the ability to shrug crits is unfair to othere races same as giving it to elves.
Charzra plz don't complain about trolls, if you think ogres are so great play an ogre. I know you play a troll cause you like trolls better. My post could not even be consider an attack on trolls by a half drunked learning disabled child. I know you speak so fervently because you feel strongly and love your race/class so much. Reread what I wrote, I have nothing against trolls, nor did I attack them.
I used a lot of sarcasm in my post, it's meant to be funny. porlly isn't oh well, don't get mad, or I'll keel you
Kaeldar Kalaze
Former Troll warrior lvl 40
------------------
What did you expect?
[This message has been edited by Kaeldar (edited 07-05-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ssarra:
It could be just me, but in most fantasy novels and stories, when elven homelands get invaded, it's usually to a ratio of 5 or 10 to one bad guy vs. elf. Ever notice how badass elves are? They can fight, they can move well, in every fantasy setting I've seen, elves are just badass warriors, with few to match them. Mainly cuz you can't hit the damn things. So to me, these changes seem warranted. They still have way fewer hps, but maybe now they'll have more of a purpose.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1.Soj3 is NOT a fantasy book.... but I'll humor you anyay
assuming it was....
yeah in the books elves are badass, but with these 5/10 odds we're talkin about, lets take into account that most of those skirmishes would occur amidst characters(extras really) that were low lvl, most likely 1-10. And it is clear that at these lvls in soj3 evles are FAR superior since hp have not come into affect largely, and natuarual evlen ac makes them largely untouchable at that lvl since everyone at this lvl has a low to hit number. So in essence when you have a huge battel between a bunch of lowbies, yeah elves are gonna rock.
Howver as I said Soj3 is not a novel, it's a game, and a game like this requires balance. And giving elves double benefit from there agility is compeletly and totally unfair to everyone who dosn't play one, or who plays a non high-agi character.
Sure I wanna be human, and have lots of hitpoints, and have great memtimes, and have troll regen, and dwarven con, but it ain't gonna happen. I picked my race knowing it's ups and downs and so did you and everyone else. Now we must live with the decisions we've made.
Kaeldar Kalaze
Majority forgotten, welcome to america
------------------
What did you expect?
It could be just me, but in most fantasy novels and stories, when elven homelands get invaded, it's usually to a ratio of 5 or 10 to one bad guy vs. elf. Ever notice how badass elves are? They can fight, they can move well, in every fantasy setting I've seen, elves are just badass warriors, with few to match them. Mainly cuz you can't hit the damn things. So to me, these changes seem warranted. They still have way fewer hps, but maybe now they'll have more of a purpose.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1.Soj3 is NOT a fantasy book.... but I'll humor you anyay
assuming it was....
yeah in the books elves are badass, but with these 5/10 odds we're talkin about, lets take into account that most of those skirmishes would occur amidst characters(extras really) that were low lvl, most likely 1-10. And it is clear that at these lvls in soj3 evles are FAR superior since hp have not come into affect largely, and natuarual evlen ac makes them largely untouchable at that lvl since everyone at this lvl has a low to hit number. So in essence when you have a huge battel between a bunch of lowbies, yeah elves are gonna rock.
Howver as I said Soj3 is not a novel, it's a game, and a game like this requires balance. And giving elves double benefit from there agility is compeletly and totally unfair to everyone who dosn't play one, or who plays a non high-agi character.
Sure I wanna be human, and have lots of hitpoints, and have great memtimes, and have troll regen, and dwarven con, but it ain't gonna happen. I picked my race knowing it's ups and downs and so did you and everyone else. Now we must live with the decisions we've made.
Kaeldar Kalaze
Majority forgotten, welcome to america
------------------
What did you expect?
It seems to me the biggest complaint from this change isn't that elves get the skill, its that ALL the highly agile races get it. Some of these races (ie trolls) do not need any increased bonuses. Now if they made it so that only elves and other wimpy races got the crit-dodging bonus, well I still don't like it but could live with it I suppose.
It still does not make sense though. The hitroll calculation takes into account the agility, AC, etc (I know cuz I saw the thac0stat info generataed on Alpha-1.) These highly agile races ARE a lot harder to hit. But when we are able to hit them, why should we be penalized and not get to do the full damage? Lets say an ogre is fighting a halfling. The halfling darts to and fro, and the ogre swings and misses a lot. But then suddenly the ogre lands a hit on the halfling. WHAMO! The halfling is going to take the full brunt of the attack. I find it ludicrous that they can avoid the damage of a critical hit because of this.
The last point I wanted to make is that a lot of coding went into the strength bonuses to critical hits. The stronger races get more of them. Now we have the counter-active coding that basically nullifies the first set of code. Why not just take out both sets of code and go back to the original crit coding if this is the case. About the only time the two sets of code would work together is if two big slow ogres were fighting each other. Both have bad agility and get a lot of crits, so it would be a bloodbath. Or two halflings could fight each other for an hour and neither hit each other, and then when one gets a crit that would hit the other, it gets avoided!
If you ask me, too much effort is being made to appease racial classes that are not the best race/class for what they want to play (elven warrior, three-toed sloth monk, gelatenous cube sorcerer etc.) Changes can be made to help them, but it always comes at a cost to the other races playing that class who are who are the ones who are supposed to be that class.
Lyt
[This message has been edited by Lyt (edited 07-05-2001).]
It still does not make sense though. The hitroll calculation takes into account the agility, AC, etc (I know cuz I saw the thac0stat info generataed on Alpha-1.) These highly agile races ARE a lot harder to hit. But when we are able to hit them, why should we be penalized and not get to do the full damage? Lets say an ogre is fighting a halfling. The halfling darts to and fro, and the ogre swings and misses a lot. But then suddenly the ogre lands a hit on the halfling. WHAMO! The halfling is going to take the full brunt of the attack. I find it ludicrous that they can avoid the damage of a critical hit because of this.
The last point I wanted to make is that a lot of coding went into the strength bonuses to critical hits. The stronger races get more of them. Now we have the counter-active coding that basically nullifies the first set of code. Why not just take out both sets of code and go back to the original crit coding if this is the case. About the only time the two sets of code would work together is if two big slow ogres were fighting each other. Both have bad agility and get a lot of crits, so it would be a bloodbath. Or two halflings could fight each other for an hour and neither hit each other, and then when one gets a crit that would hit the other, it gets avoided!
If you ask me, too much effort is being made to appease racial classes that are not the best race/class for what they want to play (elven warrior, three-toed sloth monk, gelatenous cube sorcerer etc.) Changes can be made to help them, but it always comes at a cost to the other races playing that class who are who are the ones who are supposed to be that class.
Lyt
[This message has been edited by Lyt (edited 07-05-2001).]
clearly the best solution is to tone down NPC strength. i'm pretety sure NPC strength exceeds 100..some prob over 200. warriros of all mixes are getting chewed to bits, through stone, on a regular basis because of the uber strong mobs, yet we are required to pc tank. some things are not adding up. it would be one thing if warriros could do the damage they did back in toril to make up for the low survivability against physically stronger mobs, but they dont.
just my opinion, honest or otherwise
just my opinion, honest or otherwise
I think something we are all neglecting to realize is that not all the utility spells that are going to be used primarily for tanking either are not IN the game, or have yet to be quested.
Can we somehow, somewhere get a list and a description of what these spells will be and what we can actually expect so that we can make valid arguments?
Nitania
Can we somehow, somewhere get a list and a description of what these spells will be and what we can actually expect so that we can make valid arguments?
Nitania
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Faedril:
<B>Heres the challenge:
If you think elves are so super duper with this upgrade, roll one and play it to 35. Then tell me how they rock. I'll be more than happy to give you dirs/instrs around Evermeet.
If you aren't willing to do this, please don't post complaints.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Faedril I luv you man, but you sound soooo silly =P
by the same token before evles started complaining about crits here's my challenge if you think barbarians or dwarves have it better, play a dwarf to 35
Hello, I already played a character to 35 and beyond, and there's no way in hell I'm gonna give him up to start an elf, just because they have a no unbalancing talent.
I'm not jealous and I don't want to avoid crits, and no one should be able to avoid them.
CRITS HURT --- c.r.i.t.i.c.a.l. look it up
Lyt said it best, if you wanna go toe-to-toe then don't play an elven warrior, they simply do not tank as well as the hearty races. If you wanna have the best memtimes don't play a human, they simply do no mem as fast as the more intelligent races.
But whatever you do, do not start a character and then try to get the cons of that race/class combination removed. By doing so you cheat the other race/class combinations.
Kaeldar Kalaze
cheated human
------------------
What did you expect?
<B>Heres the challenge:
If you think elves are so super duper with this upgrade, roll one and play it to 35. Then tell me how they rock. I'll be more than happy to give you dirs/instrs around Evermeet.
If you aren't willing to do this, please don't post complaints.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Faedril I luv you man, but you sound soooo silly =P
by the same token before evles started complaining about crits here's my challenge if you think barbarians or dwarves have it better, play a dwarf to 35
Hello, I already played a character to 35 and beyond, and there's no way in hell I'm gonna give him up to start an elf, just because they have a no unbalancing talent.
I'm not jealous and I don't want to avoid crits, and no one should be able to avoid them.
CRITS HURT --- c.r.i.t.i.c.a.l. look it up
Lyt said it best, if you wanna go toe-to-toe then don't play an elven warrior, they simply do not tank as well as the hearty races. If you wanna have the best memtimes don't play a human, they simply do no mem as fast as the more intelligent races.
But whatever you do, do not start a character and then try to get the cons of that race/class combination removed. By doing so you cheat the other race/class combinations.
Kaeldar Kalaze
cheated human
------------------
What did you expect?
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Frensolith
- Sojourner
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Boulder, CO
hey guys and girls,
You all forget 1 major thing. Elves still can't bash (can't even carry a pbone), got about 300 to 400 hp less then other warriors. They only die a bit less fast from critics but are not full proof.
They still make a worse tank against casters, warriors, whatever. But can actualy rescue people now.
And a critic hit is strenght based this means you just put a lot of force (but little aim?) behind your hit. This works perfect against a full suit of platemail (what an elf warrior can't wear becouse of weight). But that big hit with loads of force can still be dodged. Its not a mirical hit just a hard hit. And everybody knows that hp is the main thing when you tank, not ac. Atleast it is after lvl 30.
Now you got for the first time a desent change, you can be:
1) a hp/str based warrior
2) a ac/dex based warrior
The same counts for the casters, clerics and other stuff. And you all whining about the agi races being overpowerd and stuff, go play an elf, you would not survive it till 20. We got some very mean agro's, can't leave island till 20. And it cost more time to walk from wd to em then from ic to dk.
You all forget 1 major thing. Elves still can't bash (can't even carry a pbone), got about 300 to 400 hp less then other warriors. They only die a bit less fast from critics but are not full proof.
They still make a worse tank against casters, warriors, whatever. But can actualy rescue people now.
And a critic hit is strenght based this means you just put a lot of force (but little aim?) behind your hit. This works perfect against a full suit of platemail (what an elf warrior can't wear becouse of weight). But that big hit with loads of force can still be dodged. Its not a mirical hit just a hard hit. And everybody knows that hp is the main thing when you tank, not ac. Atleast it is after lvl 30.
Now you got for the first time a desent change, you can be:
1) a hp/str based warrior
2) a ac/dex based warrior
The same counts for the casters, clerics and other stuff. And you all whining about the agi races being overpowerd and stuff, go play an elf, you would not survive it till 20. We got some very mean agro's, can't leave island till 20. And it cost more time to walk from wd to em then from ic to dk.
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Frensolith
- Sojourner
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Boulder, CO
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by silvea:
You all forget 1 major thing. Elves still can't bash (can't even carry a pbone), got about 300 to 400 hp less then other warriors. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Level 50 elf warriors have 150-250 hp?
You all forget 1 major thing. Elves still can't bash (can't even carry a pbone), got about 300 to 400 hp less then other warriors. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Level 50 elf warriors have 150-250 hp?
Look everyone, this is slowly degrading into a whining match between people :P
I'm sure that wasn't anything close to Faedril's intent by starting this thread. Try to keep it to constructice critisism, as some of you have been
Oh, and yeah, elves do bash fine. I've grouped with Frensolith and the mobs stay down
I'm sure that wasn't anything close to Faedril's intent by starting this thread. Try to keep it to constructice critisism, as some of you have been
Oh, and yeah, elves do bash fine. I've grouped with Frensolith and the mobs stay down
Ok, I really didn't want to get drawn into this, but you people are insane.
If jealousy were a crime, everyone would be in jail.
You all seem to think that elves somehow gained the extrordinary ability to tank everything and anything now, because they never get hit by crits. Well yer all incredibly dense for thinking that.
As Frensolith said, try leveling a grey, and see how much the change really affects them. Perhaps the crits don't happen *nearly* as often, but they happen enough to still make being an elf a hardship.
Oh and for all those people saying elves rock because they have great agi, and blahblah, well stow it. Elf warriors may make decent tanks w/ decent eq at -100ac, but rangers do not.
I'm not gonna complain that Faedril and Frensolith would tank better than me at same level and equally equipped. That's how it should be, but when you group other classes into that same mix, you are basically saying you know jack about what really goes on.
At -94ac, I still get ripped apart by mobs 5-10 levels above me, and if I'm daring enough to rescue someone from a mob higher than that, I'd best have a full heal coming, or expect elf entrails all over.
Bitch and whine about the agi/crit thing with some brains and facts. Throwing around wild accusations gets people nowhere. I can assume that illithids must be the best class in the mud, and whine about them being too powerful, but I'd sound like an idiot since I've never played one past level 5.
Use your head, argue w/ facts not opinions. If you have an opinion great, but don't whine about something you don't really know anything about.
Cheers to those who eat crits like me...
Twyl
If jealousy were a crime, everyone would be in jail.
You all seem to think that elves somehow gained the extrordinary ability to tank everything and anything now, because they never get hit by crits. Well yer all incredibly dense for thinking that.
As Frensolith said, try leveling a grey, and see how much the change really affects them. Perhaps the crits don't happen *nearly* as often, but they happen enough to still make being an elf a hardship.
Oh and for all those people saying elves rock because they have great agi, and blahblah, well stow it. Elf warriors may make decent tanks w/ decent eq at -100ac, but rangers do not.
I'm not gonna complain that Faedril and Frensolith would tank better than me at same level and equally equipped. That's how it should be, but when you group other classes into that same mix, you are basically saying you know jack about what really goes on.
At -94ac, I still get ripped apart by mobs 5-10 levels above me, and if I'm daring enough to rescue someone from a mob higher than that, I'd best have a full heal coming, or expect elf entrails all over.
Bitch and whine about the agi/crit thing with some brains and facts. Throwing around wild accusations gets people nowhere. I can assume that illithids must be the best class in the mud, and whine about them being too powerful, but I'd sound like an idiot since I've never played one past level 5.
Use your head, argue w/ facts not opinions. If you have an opinion great, but don't whine about something you don't really know anything about.
Cheers to those who eat crits like me...
Twyl
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Uthgar
- Staff Member - Coder
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Chatsworth, CA, USA
First thing I gotta say: this thread has more misinformation in it than just about any other I've ever read on this bbs. So, I'm going to give you some correct information and explain why this change was made in that context.
All of the information below assumes a 100 stat in the appropriate ability:
First off, who benefits from agility (from greatest to least): elf, drow, gnome, troll, yuan-ti, halfling, halfelf. Notice that troll is 4th on that list. Yes, trolls benefit a bit, but not a lot.
2nd, what is the benefit of grey-elven agility to tanking: approximately 10% harder to hit target number than barb/human.
3rd, how often do elves get extra attacks from dex: 1 in 7 rounds.
4th, how many less hp does an elven warrior have than a barbarian/dwarven warrior at level 50: 250
5th, what is the sequence of combat determination:
1)a) parry
b) block
c) dodge
2) Did you roll well enough to hit?
3) Did you roll well enough that you hit no matter what? (crit, including str/agi mods).
4) Determine damage (crits get multipliers)
Note that crits are a percentage of all non-avoided hits, and that crit rolls totally ignore the benefits of ac. (As one of my friends said before the agi mod was put in, "A 1st level ogre will hit Tiamat 9% of the time due to crit bonus."
If you look at the small advantages elves had on tanking (10% harder to hit, 1 in 7 rounds an extra attack) compared to their disadvantages (250 less hp, no crit bonus for str), they really do come up short. It was our intention to make every race viable as a "tank" character, in order to increase the variation in the game, and possibly engender more fun. Elves weren't cutting it, nor were gnomes, drow, or halflings, who also benefit from this change.
The agi modifier on crits simply reduces the percentage chance of being critted in the exact same way str increased the chance of getting a crit. Since it is possible to get as high as a 7% bonus chance of critting, the 3% reduction elves can get (4% with +maxagi, then again, even humans can get 1% from that) is less than half the magnitude of the crit increase. An elf in Jot will still be critted 6% of the time, and with his 250 fewer hp, he will have a much smaller margin of time to get that full heal from a cleric than a dwarf or barbarian who is critted a litle bit more often.
Furthermore, no matter how wimpy the mob, elves will still take critical hits, so they are by no means immune, and even 1 critical hit for them is a life and death matter, unlike their dwarven and barbarian competitors.
Some casters expressed some envy about this issue, but even some elven warriors don't have their agility high enough to benefit fully from this change. I doubt most casters have their agility high enough to benefit, no matter what race they are (no benefit at all exists at 80 elven agility).
Even if some do, their gnomish, yuan, and drow couterparts also gained. Yes, humans don't get anythign from this, but they knew their race had no unique bonuses to begin with.
Anyways, I think this is a fair change, and I don't think its about to imbalance the game and make elves run away with the show. Frankly, I think gnomes probably benefitted more than elves did, since they can get most of the bonus and have fewer liabilities.
Uthgar
All of the information below assumes a 100 stat in the appropriate ability:
First off, who benefits from agility (from greatest to least): elf, drow, gnome, troll, yuan-ti, halfling, halfelf. Notice that troll is 4th on that list. Yes, trolls benefit a bit, but not a lot.
2nd, what is the benefit of grey-elven agility to tanking: approximately 10% harder to hit target number than barb/human.
3rd, how often do elves get extra attacks from dex: 1 in 7 rounds.
4th, how many less hp does an elven warrior have than a barbarian/dwarven warrior at level 50: 250
5th, what is the sequence of combat determination:
1)a) parry
b) block
c) dodge
2) Did you roll well enough to hit?
3) Did you roll well enough that you hit no matter what? (crit, including str/agi mods).
4) Determine damage (crits get multipliers)
Note that crits are a percentage of all non-avoided hits, and that crit rolls totally ignore the benefits of ac. (As one of my friends said before the agi mod was put in, "A 1st level ogre will hit Tiamat 9% of the time due to crit bonus."
If you look at the small advantages elves had on tanking (10% harder to hit, 1 in 7 rounds an extra attack) compared to their disadvantages (250 less hp, no crit bonus for str), they really do come up short. It was our intention to make every race viable as a "tank" character, in order to increase the variation in the game, and possibly engender more fun. Elves weren't cutting it, nor were gnomes, drow, or halflings, who also benefit from this change.
The agi modifier on crits simply reduces the percentage chance of being critted in the exact same way str increased the chance of getting a crit. Since it is possible to get as high as a 7% bonus chance of critting, the 3% reduction elves can get (4% with +maxagi, then again, even humans can get 1% from that) is less than half the magnitude of the crit increase. An elf in Jot will still be critted 6% of the time, and with his 250 fewer hp, he will have a much smaller margin of time to get that full heal from a cleric than a dwarf or barbarian who is critted a litle bit more often.
Furthermore, no matter how wimpy the mob, elves will still take critical hits, so they are by no means immune, and even 1 critical hit for them is a life and death matter, unlike their dwarven and barbarian competitors.
Some casters expressed some envy about this issue, but even some elven warriors don't have their agility high enough to benefit fully from this change. I doubt most casters have their agility high enough to benefit, no matter what race they are (no benefit at all exists at 80 elven agility).
Even if some do, their gnomish, yuan, and drow couterparts also gained. Yes, humans don't get anythign from this, but they knew their race had no unique bonuses to begin with.
Anyways, I think this is a fair change, and I don't think its about to imbalance the game and make elves run away with the show. Frankly, I think gnomes probably benefitted more than elves did, since they can get most of the bonus and have fewer liabilities.
Uthgar
I'd also like to throw in the fact that elf warriors are FAR from immune from criticals after this change. I was with Frensolith last night for a while. He got chewed up badly several times by MS wizzies. Wizzies. Not ogres with a higher crit chance. Wizzies. You know, those frail human things that wear pointy hats and robes? Black ones in this case? He hit 7 hp after a few particularly nasty hits.
And as a side note, elves don't have the fastest mage mem times on the goodie side. Gnomes do and have better hp to boot. Elves often are more along the lines of second best in their classes.
And as a side note, elves don't have the fastest mage mem times on the goodie side. Gnomes do and have better hp to boot. Elves often are more along the lines of second best in their classes.
-
Frensolith
- Sojourner
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Boulder, CO
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Treladian:
And as a side note, elves don't have the fastest mage mem times on the goodie side. Gnomes do and have better hp to boot. Elves often are more along the lines of second best in their classes.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not according to my testing, Trel. Elf mages have 2 sec better mem times than gnomes / circle. Gnomes do have better hitpoints but elves rule the goodie mem times.
And as a side note, elves don't have the fastest mage mem times on the goodie side. Gnomes do and have better hp to boot. Elves often are more along the lines of second best in their classes.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not according to my testing, Trel. Elf mages have 2 sec better mem times than gnomes / circle. Gnomes do have better hitpoints but elves rule the goodie mem times.
Just one question... a few people were saying that elves should not play warriors, because they lack in tanking skills.
If this is the case, then why do elves have an island basically to themselves? I know that as an enchanter I can't tank the hard stuff on the island... who's supposed to? Clerics and rangers? Yeah, I guess you could well over a barb or a dwarf, but that's a pain in the ass, and I'm not sure if anyone has well yet or not.
Just pointing out that there is a need for elven tanks.
Sel
If this is the case, then why do elves have an island basically to themselves? I know that as an enchanter I can't tank the hard stuff on the island... who's supposed to? Clerics and rangers? Yeah, I guess you could well over a barb or a dwarf, but that's a pain in the ass, and I'm not sure if anyone has well yet or not.
Just pointing out that there is a need for elven tanks.
Sel
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Frensolith:
<B>OH, and another thing, Why elf hitpoints are quite slim, I really cant see how adding more Hitpoints can be good. If you did, we'd be on same par as human warriors. And that just doesn't seem quite right to me.
Frensolith</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Rar elven warriors!
Rar human warriors!
*duck*
<B>OH, and another thing, Why elf hitpoints are quite slim, I really cant see how adding more Hitpoints can be good. If you did, we'd be on same par as human warriors. And that just doesn't seem quite right to me.
Frensolith</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Rar elven warriors!
Rar human warriors!
*duck*
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Faedril:
<B>Well i Tried to word that reply so no one took it as a flame.... Sheesh
Here's my point, dried out and made simple.
I'm not lobbying for small races to be better or even equal to big races. I'm lobbying to make it so people can play them to high levels and have a char that is group viable. Period.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If they're not equal, how are they viable? Hmmm....
Anyhow, I have my own ideas on grey elf warrior balancing, but those will take a long time to see the light of day.
<B>Well i Tried to word that reply so no one took it as a flame.... Sheesh
Here's my point, dried out and made simple.
I'm not lobbying for small races to be better or even equal to big races. I'm lobbying to make it so people can play them to high levels and have a char that is group viable. Period.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If they're not equal, how are they viable? Hmmm....
Anyhow, I have my own ideas on grey elf warrior balancing, but those will take a long time to see the light of day.
-
kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
lets not assume that choice = fair. We all got choice when we picked our race and class, no one said it was going to be fair.
A lot of people read shit like Drizzt then think drow warriors should rock because Drizzt rocks, hes a freak, not an average drow. Warriors are hardy, need hps and strength. In truly rare circumstances an agile and dextrous warrior is made a hero, but generally warrior heroes are strong and meaty.
You dont like elf warriors, go roll something else. You really want to be an elf warriors, roll with the punches. Same goes for rangers. Everyone knows that rangers suck, but bunch of people keep making them then bitch. Make your choice and if you dont like it make a different choice or deal. elf warriors should never equal dwarf/barbarian/troll/ogre warriors.
There are just some choices that are mediocre to bad. Soj gives you freedom to choose a sucky combo for roleplay personal desire or whatever. Would you rather the only allowable warrior races to be barb, dwarf, ogre, troll and the only classes available cleric, mage, warrior, thief?
A lot of people read shit like Drizzt then think drow warriors should rock because Drizzt rocks, hes a freak, not an average drow. Warriors are hardy, need hps and strength. In truly rare circumstances an agile and dextrous warrior is made a hero, but generally warrior heroes are strong and meaty.
You dont like elf warriors, go roll something else. You really want to be an elf warriors, roll with the punches. Same goes for rangers. Everyone knows that rangers suck, but bunch of people keep making them then bitch. Make your choice and if you dont like it make a different choice or deal. elf warriors should never equal dwarf/barbarian/troll/ogre warriors.
There are just some choices that are mediocre to bad. Soj gives you freedom to choose a sucky combo for roleplay personal desire or whatever. Would you rather the only allowable warrior races to be barb, dwarf, ogre, troll and the only classes available cleric, mage, warrior, thief?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>
A lot of people read shit like Drizzt then think drow warriors should rock because Drizzt rocks, hes a freak, not an average drow. Warriors are hardy, need hps and strength. In truly rare circumstances an agile and dextrous warrior is made a hero, but generally warrior heroes are strong and meaty.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ummm... actually ALL elf warriors are supposed to be superior to human warriors. This is represented in AD&D by their +1 bonus with weapons.
Also, give me the biggest baddest bodybuilder you can find. I can drop him in one Aikido move. And I'm not even all that skilled in Aikido. I could also drop him using pressure points... but I just started learning those. In either case, if it's dexterity and balance against pure muscle, muscle will lose.
Any warrior, no matter how large, needs to be quick on his feet have good balance. If you swing your sword and fall over because you tripped on your own heel then you are just going to die, even if you make Holyfield look like a wuss.
Sarvis
<B>
A lot of people read shit like Drizzt then think drow warriors should rock because Drizzt rocks, hes a freak, not an average drow. Warriors are hardy, need hps and strength. In truly rare circumstances an agile and dextrous warrior is made a hero, but generally warrior heroes are strong and meaty.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ummm... actually ALL elf warriors are supposed to be superior to human warriors. This is represented in AD&D by their +1 bonus with weapons.
Also, give me the biggest baddest bodybuilder you can find. I can drop him in one Aikido move. And I'm not even all that skilled in Aikido. I could also drop him using pressure points... but I just started learning those. In either case, if it's dexterity and balance against pure muscle, muscle will lose.
Any warrior, no matter how large, needs to be quick on his feet have good balance. If you swing your sword and fall over because you tripped on your own heel then you are just going to die, even if you make Holyfield look like a wuss.
Sarvis
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kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
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in response to the aikido shit bleh you could drop him with one shotgun too, that dont mean shit. If a sumo tackles your ass and really wants to kill you your fucked.
Elves get a bonus with swords doesnt mean they are better warriors. The bitching is that elves cant be tanks at higher levels. So are all warriors supposed to be able to tank equally well? Thats ridiculous. A gnome elf halfling tank should get smushed. Maybe they should have some redeeming quality, but I dont think variety should = equality, it wouldnt really be variety then would it. Play a elf at your own risk. You hear drows bitching about not being master dualers and dropping daemons solo like drizzt? IF you wanna power game, choose the race/combos that are powerful and the classes that are vital. If not choose whatever you want and enjoy.
Fantasy books are usually written for the underdog, thats why all final warrior matches are with some beefy meaty 40 inch bicep barbarian and a scrawny human or elf. According to the books, the elf should win every time. ANother point, they usually super worried abuot getting hit once because if they do its over. sounds an awful like how crits affect elves now. Seems to me they always outthinking their opponent rather than straight up fighting.
I made a troll warrior because they got great hps, very good rescue, and can solo. I wanted to make an enchanter or cleric but I didnt because i wanted to level fast to get up to zoning level. I hate dieing to one cloud, but I comprimised my instinct to make the best warrior for faster leveling. Maybe some of you compromised because you have some love for pointy ears and an island that is basically your exclusive domain. Maybe you were flat out misguided. Go make something else, elves != tanks if you wanted to tank you shouldve made a paladin.
Please dont tell me you picked elf warrior because you thought that they were going to be uber.
Caz is slain by uncontrollable laughter
Elves get a bonus with swords doesnt mean they are better warriors. The bitching is that elves cant be tanks at higher levels. So are all warriors supposed to be able to tank equally well? Thats ridiculous. A gnome elf halfling tank should get smushed. Maybe they should have some redeeming quality, but I dont think variety should = equality, it wouldnt really be variety then would it. Play a elf at your own risk. You hear drows bitching about not being master dualers and dropping daemons solo like drizzt? IF you wanna power game, choose the race/combos that are powerful and the classes that are vital. If not choose whatever you want and enjoy.
Fantasy books are usually written for the underdog, thats why all final warrior matches are with some beefy meaty 40 inch bicep barbarian and a scrawny human or elf. According to the books, the elf should win every time. ANother point, they usually super worried abuot getting hit once because if they do its over. sounds an awful like how crits affect elves now. Seems to me they always outthinking their opponent rather than straight up fighting.
I made a troll warrior because they got great hps, very good rescue, and can solo. I wanted to make an enchanter or cleric but I didnt because i wanted to level fast to get up to zoning level. I hate dieing to one cloud, but I comprimised my instinct to make the best warrior for faster leveling. Maybe some of you compromised because you have some love for pointy ears and an island that is basically your exclusive domain. Maybe you were flat out misguided. Go make something else, elves != tanks if you wanted to tank you shouldve made a paladin.
Please dont tell me you picked elf warrior because you thought that they were going to be uber.
Caz is slain by uncontrollable laughter
Kiryan: One question. What hurts more? Being punched in the face, or a punch missing your face because you dodged?
It doesn't matter what your size is, not getting hit will hurt less than getting hit. The start of every Aikido move is getting out of the way. Granted, if your sumo is faster than I am I'm fucked. If we're equal I'd have a good chance against him, and if I was faster he'd be best off just walking away from me.
Also, you say trolls are the best warriors. Don't trolls also have really high agility? Which helps with skills like parry and dodge? Perhaps one of the reasons trolls are ubertanks is because they have high HP AND can avoid getting hit.
It doesn't matter what your size is, not getting hit will hurt less than getting hit. The start of every Aikido move is getting out of the way. Granted, if your sumo is faster than I am I'm fucked. If we're equal I'd have a good chance against him, and if I was faster he'd be best off just walking away from me.
Also, you say trolls are the best warriors. Don't trolls also have really high agility? Which helps with skills like parry and dodge? Perhaps one of the reasons trolls are ubertanks is because they have high HP AND can avoid getting hit.
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kiryan
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what do barbarians dwarves trolls and ogres have in common besides being the best warrior races? hitpoints and strength. What are warrior prime attributes? Constitution and strength. On sojourn where do the majority of their skills lie, under strength. What do elves lack, constituion and strength.
Why play an elf warrior, because you want to not because they make good warriors.
The whole aikdo thing is not a good analogy. Get a club, give the sumo a club, and think about how you would beat him up. Not happening unless your real smart or real lucky. He prolly going to shrug your hits, your prolly going to be staggering from his. Smart and lucky usually not warrior strong points. Beating things to death and surviving a licking are.
Why play an elf warrior, because you want to not because they make good warriors.
The whole aikdo thing is not a good analogy. Get a club, give the sumo a club, and think about how you would beat him up. Not happening unless your real smart or real lucky. He prolly going to shrug your hits, your prolly going to be staggering from his. Smart and lucky usually not warrior strong points. Beating things to death and surviving a licking are.
hrmmm.. just read this thread... just my 2 cents since cerly is/was and always will be my main character... should elves be better tanks then dorfs barbs ogres or trolls??? hell no!!! should we be harder to hit??? hell yeah!!! on toril i could rescue better then any dorf or barb but the cleric had better be quick with a heal.. elf tankin was a result of rescuin only... on soj3 things are diff... i am amazed and happy with the changes... keep me stoned and throw me some heals and i tank quite well... and i manage to keep the damn mob down at the same time... i will never be better as a tank then the other 'warrior' classes.. nor should i be... but i can at least hold my own on soj3.. thank you gods!!!
one other lil thing... that exclusive island of ours... doesn't mean anything if you are one of 2 people under 20 on it... i think the majority of elves/halfelves would open it up to the public mud population if it meant we could leave before 20th freakin level.. grin
feel free to make elf warriors better.. i ain't gonna argue.. wink.. but i'm not sure it needs to be done atm...
shrug just my opinion
Cerlayne "typin one handed sux" L'ytria
one other lil thing... that exclusive island of ours... doesn't mean anything if you are one of 2 people under 20 on it... i think the majority of elves/halfelves would open it up to the public mud population if it meant we could leave before 20th freakin level.. grin
feel free to make elf warriors better.. i ain't gonna argue.. wink.. but i'm not sure it needs to be done atm...
shrug just my opinion
Cerlayne "typin one handed sux" L'ytria
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