paladin tanking and warrior's role if they still have any
I put this in another post, and imma post it here too.
Warriors got screwed because they're doomed to wield one handers and a shield till the end of their days due to shieldblock and shieldpunch. To make matters worse their damage became nonexistant because someone thought the good 1h weapons were too powerful, so they made everything 2d6.
Keeping in mind our 2hers have taken their fair share of downgrades: frosty, flamberge, mithril broadsword, all nowhere near their former power, but still not gutless compared to all the 1-12 +2 +2 weapons out there. If warriors are damned to use one weapon forever, maybe a triple attack skill could help out?
i've suggested specialize weapon type a few times..does anyone else like/have interest in this idea?
E
Warriors got screwed because they're doomed to wield one handers and a shield till the end of their days due to shieldblock and shieldpunch. To make matters worse their damage became nonexistant because someone thought the good 1h weapons were too powerful, so they made everything 2d6.
Keeping in mind our 2hers have taken their fair share of downgrades: frosty, flamberge, mithril broadsword, all nowhere near their former power, but still not gutless compared to all the 1-12 +2 +2 weapons out there. If warriors are damned to use one weapon forever, maybe a triple attack skill could help out?
i've suggested specialize weapon type a few times..does anyone else like/have interest in this idea?
E
Warriors as they are now, since the defense skill nerfs are really lacking. I agree that warriors should be uncontested in their tanking ability. A paladin should not be better at tanking than a warrior, period. Paladins have plenty of other spells/skills to make them useful, sure they can tank but warriors should be able to do it better.
I've never understood why the evil races only have 1 warrior class. Anti-paladins are evil, so should be evil-able IMO.
Make antis orcable or even drow-able, I know I'd like to see it.
I would like to see warrior upgrades, maybe even a skill they can quest for higher up.
I've never understood why the evil races only have 1 warrior class. Anti-paladins are evil, so should be evil-able IMO.
Make antis orcable or even drow-able, I know I'd like to see it.
I would like to see warrior upgrades, maybe even a skill they can quest for higher up.
A couple of months ago, I logged on to find out that there were some defensive adjustments made. I play a 50th level paladin. I got together with a couple of friends to help them out with a little exp. I died in the first fight tanking a mob the day before I was able to solo, despite the fact that I had a warrior with near !fail bash and a stoning/hasting/blurring enchanter. A couple more deaths I logged off, disheartened that I lost my level and skills, when I was only trying to help some friends get exp. Later on there is something in the news that reports paladins mounted combat being adjusted again. Nevertheless I believe paladins already took a larger hit than warriors already with the adjustment of these knobs(that is what the news implied).
Why did noone care that paladins could tank well b4? Because warriors could tank good b4. My eq isn't that great but I do have -100ac w/ armor and all my defensive skills maxed. I don't notice too much of a difference between my tanking abilities and those of a warriors. I see that we have a better parry skill, but hasn't this always been the case? I thought paladins always excelled in parry, riposte and rescue?
Alot of this arguement has stemmed from a log of a paladin tanking the ship very well. Well I have done ship for like 200 hours. About 40 of them after the tanking downgrade. Every once in a while I get on a roll and tank with some confidence. At other times I watch my hp bleed away cuz I just used layhands, waiting for a warrior/ranger to rescue me, or just die. I do notice that my tanking is streaky. I will admit I might of had a string of 3 fights(mobs) in a row during that 40 hours, where I tanked as well as that 48th level paladin in the log, but on the whole it is far stretch from what paladin life is like. I might just suck though, even though I consistently have an enchanter and illusionist with me.
Why paladins are used as main tanks by some goodie groups is mostly because we need warriors to bash. Caster or non-caster mobs being kept down is critical in any zoning or even exp situation. Well bashing is a powerful skill, one I rarely use. I have never seen more than 2 paladins in a successful group. The one group I did see 3 in, we died from missed bashes.
Warriors tied up with crucial duties such as bashing/sp. A role which a paladin can fill one or the other but in a ghetto fashion, leaves a grouped paladin as a hitter or tank.
I tank and rescue people, a warrior can tank and rescue people. BASH
I can tank and rescue people while 2handing, guess what?
Who cares if your tank can hit? Would ya rather have a hard hitting tank or one wit -100ac?
When I 2hand I have to wear major ac and hp gear. I lose my shield slot.
Even during exp, who cares? If I exp, the first class I have to find is a warrior, to either tank/bash or just bash, mobs have to be kept from switching. What caster wants to hear, "Don't worry about switches, I'll rescue you?" I am talking about 50th level+ exp mobs.
In the log posted by Cherzra, was there someone bashing for the paladin?
If there was none of that could of occured without the warrior being there also.
Warriors are mad that they are tanking sucky now. I don't know, If I just suck or not but I tank sucky now too! Maybe some of the other paladins out there tank much better, who knows? I can give numerous examples of feeling the same feelings that some of you warriors have been feeling since these downgrades. I am embarrassed to tank, what else can I say?
But zones are still doable, even more challenging, is another viewpoint.
But look at the big picture as far as warrior and paladin tanking. We are not opponents. We tank for each other. If you are an evil and see a problem with this lack of mounted combat. The imms originally intended orcs to be an anti-paladin race choice. Some evils said that they didn't want it. Some evils still say they don't want it, many other evils would love it. There is nothing wrong with another option. It is not a necessity.
Mounted combat the additional defensive check. Only usuable with a horse. As many have said a horse may die/flee. You can only summon mounts outdoors 3 times a week. I earned the nickname of punkmaster 2001, this was dubbed upon me by my rl friends, as they would see the effects of falling off the horse. You get lagged a round and are sitting on your arse.
I have died due to my horse in 1way rooms b4. I hate 1way rooms alot. Paladins cannot wield 2handers til they have 75 mounted combat skill. This was about level 37 for me I believe. 2hander practice was fun. I need a summon to ghetto well somewhere, *wave* horse. If I have the tick timed I have a decent chance of getting on my horse, when the group leader says 'vvar n'. If the north holds more than one aggro mob, the chances of getting on my horse becomes really low, exponentially with the amount of aggro mobs. Phantom steeds do not readily replace a summoned mount. Charge is less reliable then sp.
Shieldblock: lose offensive ability (2handing/dual wielding)
Both defensive checks should be tweaked upward, unless elementalist are really going to make that much of a difference. But at a certain point how much better will a warrior/paladin tank fully spelled up compared to a thief/ranger/cleric/illusionist fully spelled up? If all our defense is coming from stone/blur/displace/<elementalist spell>?
Arguing for reality and balance is not easy. There has to be give and take. As Jhorr pointed out if an ogre can stand in a room, then a horse ridden by a human can exist in that room. I am not advocating !ogre rooms, this would be ridiculous.
Paladins can only be human: here are some stats.
GOOD:
Barbarians: +6 +6, 70ac | Innates: bodyslam (heaviest good race) | hp avg 680-700
Dwarves: +6 +6, 70ac | Innate: infravision | hp avg 680-700
Halflings: +10 +3, 62ac | Innate: infravision | hp average 520-550
reachable max/con notch
Humans: +6 +5, 70ac | Innate: n/a | hp avg 550-600
reachable max/con notch
EVIL:
Ogres: +5 +10, 92ac | Innate: bodyslam(doorbash?) | hp avg 750-800
Trolls: +6 +6, 55ac | Innate: bodyslam, regeneration | hp avg 750-800
reachable max/con notch | WEAK TO FIRE
Duergars: +6+7 | Innate: Invisibility, strength, enlarge, ultravision | hp avg 680-700
reachable max/con notch
I apologize if any of that information is incorrect, feel free to correct me.
I also apologize to gnomish, elven, drow, yaun-ti warriors.
According to this data, It is obvious that all warriors are not equal.
In fact I would rank the top 3 warriors Ogre/Troll, Duergar.
That explains the lack of goodie warriors at the onset of sojourn3, any experienced warrior, would obviously play an evil. Showing a desire to be the best warrior in the game.
And at that point, it is logical to play a female Ogre or Troll, due to females being larger in size.
There are also many tradeoffs for playing an evil, despite the fact that good and evil are supposed to be on equal footing. The players that researched this data and rolled Ogre and Troll females should be applauded, they went the extra step to be the best that they could be.
Knowing that in some cases they would face a harder path. Many of the evil warriors who have tried their very best to be the best tanks in the game are now feeling jipped. I am willing to log on and do some hard tanking statistics between me and any warrior. I also have some of the best natural fighter stats in the game. And paladins are made to eradicate evil, so an arena match would not be fair(holy word/protection from evil). Yet in the arena if we are killed are horse is left behind, when we reenter the arena the chances of us finding our horse is slim. Sometimes you come to find your horse being killed by areas. This in a small way represents the crutch aspect of the horse.
Paladins have alot of neat skills and stuff, but they just seem neat to someone who takes for granted what they have been given. Paladins are just different.
Lay hands(once a day) vs. extra 100-200 hp(permanently, lvl 50)
Mounted combat vs. shield block
charge vs. sp
rescue>bash vs. bash>rescue(size)
spells(worst spell casters) vs innate abilities, better agi/dex/str/con, crit rates, size
handsome vs. ugly
The final end product is 2 very different classes, relatively well balanced. I want to tank better and so do warriors. Please check out our defensive skill checks. Once in awhile I tank good, sometimes I wonder if i have any spells up. Paladins are feeling the downgrades as much as you are. Don't be jealous about a better % to parry, it isn't helping me that much, and was unnoticeable til the downgrades. I rarely log on nowadays.
In no way am I asking for any downgrades to anybody, why would anybody else?
I think pc tanks need to be able to tank. If you think paladins are still overpowered(?), then
I suggest making paladins unable to use the commands flee/retreat. That is rp oriented and would have a negative effect which will lead to alot paladin deaths. But death b4 dishonor anyways.
Vvar – luv & peace
Why did noone care that paladins could tank well b4? Because warriors could tank good b4. My eq isn't that great but I do have -100ac w/ armor and all my defensive skills maxed. I don't notice too much of a difference between my tanking abilities and those of a warriors. I see that we have a better parry skill, but hasn't this always been the case? I thought paladins always excelled in parry, riposte and rescue?
Alot of this arguement has stemmed from a log of a paladin tanking the ship very well. Well I have done ship for like 200 hours. About 40 of them after the tanking downgrade. Every once in a while I get on a roll and tank with some confidence. At other times I watch my hp bleed away cuz I just used layhands, waiting for a warrior/ranger to rescue me, or just die. I do notice that my tanking is streaky. I will admit I might of had a string of 3 fights(mobs) in a row during that 40 hours, where I tanked as well as that 48th level paladin in the log, but on the whole it is far stretch from what paladin life is like. I might just suck though, even though I consistently have an enchanter and illusionist with me.
Why paladins are used as main tanks by some goodie groups is mostly because we need warriors to bash. Caster or non-caster mobs being kept down is critical in any zoning or even exp situation. Well bashing is a powerful skill, one I rarely use. I have never seen more than 2 paladins in a successful group. The one group I did see 3 in, we died from missed bashes.
Warriors tied up with crucial duties such as bashing/sp. A role which a paladin can fill one or the other but in a ghetto fashion, leaves a grouped paladin as a hitter or tank.
I tank and rescue people, a warrior can tank and rescue people. BASH
I can tank and rescue people while 2handing, guess what?
Who cares if your tank can hit? Would ya rather have a hard hitting tank or one wit -100ac?
When I 2hand I have to wear major ac and hp gear. I lose my shield slot.
Even during exp, who cares? If I exp, the first class I have to find is a warrior, to either tank/bash or just bash, mobs have to be kept from switching. What caster wants to hear, "Don't worry about switches, I'll rescue you?" I am talking about 50th level+ exp mobs.
In the log posted by Cherzra, was there someone bashing for the paladin?
If there was none of that could of occured without the warrior being there also.
Warriors are mad that they are tanking sucky now. I don't know, If I just suck or not but I tank sucky now too! Maybe some of the other paladins out there tank much better, who knows? I can give numerous examples of feeling the same feelings that some of you warriors have been feeling since these downgrades. I am embarrassed to tank, what else can I say?
But zones are still doable, even more challenging, is another viewpoint.
But look at the big picture as far as warrior and paladin tanking. We are not opponents. We tank for each other. If you are an evil and see a problem with this lack of mounted combat. The imms originally intended orcs to be an anti-paladin race choice. Some evils said that they didn't want it. Some evils still say they don't want it, many other evils would love it. There is nothing wrong with another option. It is not a necessity.
Mounted combat the additional defensive check. Only usuable with a horse. As many have said a horse may die/flee. You can only summon mounts outdoors 3 times a week. I earned the nickname of punkmaster 2001, this was dubbed upon me by my rl friends, as they would see the effects of falling off the horse. You get lagged a round and are sitting on your arse.
I have died due to my horse in 1way rooms b4. I hate 1way rooms alot. Paladins cannot wield 2handers til they have 75 mounted combat skill. This was about level 37 for me I believe. 2hander practice was fun. I need a summon to ghetto well somewhere, *wave* horse. If I have the tick timed I have a decent chance of getting on my horse, when the group leader says 'vvar n'. If the north holds more than one aggro mob, the chances of getting on my horse becomes really low, exponentially with the amount of aggro mobs. Phantom steeds do not readily replace a summoned mount. Charge is less reliable then sp.
Shieldblock: lose offensive ability (2handing/dual wielding)
Both defensive checks should be tweaked upward, unless elementalist are really going to make that much of a difference. But at a certain point how much better will a warrior/paladin tank fully spelled up compared to a thief/ranger/cleric/illusionist fully spelled up? If all our defense is coming from stone/blur/displace/<elementalist spell>?
Arguing for reality and balance is not easy. There has to be give and take. As Jhorr pointed out if an ogre can stand in a room, then a horse ridden by a human can exist in that room. I am not advocating !ogre rooms, this would be ridiculous.
Paladins can only be human: here are some stats.
GOOD:
Barbarians: +6 +6, 70ac | Innates: bodyslam (heaviest good race) | hp avg 680-700
Dwarves: +6 +6, 70ac | Innate: infravision | hp avg 680-700
Halflings: +10 +3, 62ac | Innate: infravision | hp average 520-550
reachable max/con notch
Humans: +6 +5, 70ac | Innate: n/a | hp avg 550-600
reachable max/con notch
EVIL:
Ogres: +5 +10, 92ac | Innate: bodyslam(doorbash?) | hp avg 750-800
Trolls: +6 +6, 55ac | Innate: bodyslam, regeneration | hp avg 750-800
reachable max/con notch | WEAK TO FIRE
Duergars: +6+7 | Innate: Invisibility, strength, enlarge, ultravision | hp avg 680-700
reachable max/con notch
I apologize if any of that information is incorrect, feel free to correct me.
I also apologize to gnomish, elven, drow, yaun-ti warriors.
According to this data, It is obvious that all warriors are not equal.
In fact I would rank the top 3 warriors Ogre/Troll, Duergar.
That explains the lack of goodie warriors at the onset of sojourn3, any experienced warrior, would obviously play an evil. Showing a desire to be the best warrior in the game.
And at that point, it is logical to play a female Ogre or Troll, due to females being larger in size.
There are also many tradeoffs for playing an evil, despite the fact that good and evil are supposed to be on equal footing. The players that researched this data and rolled Ogre and Troll females should be applauded, they went the extra step to be the best that they could be.
Knowing that in some cases they would face a harder path. Many of the evil warriors who have tried their very best to be the best tanks in the game are now feeling jipped. I am willing to log on and do some hard tanking statistics between me and any warrior. I also have some of the best natural fighter stats in the game. And paladins are made to eradicate evil, so an arena match would not be fair(holy word/protection from evil). Yet in the arena if we are killed are horse is left behind, when we reenter the arena the chances of us finding our horse is slim. Sometimes you come to find your horse being killed by areas. This in a small way represents the crutch aspect of the horse.
Paladins have alot of neat skills and stuff, but they just seem neat to someone who takes for granted what they have been given. Paladins are just different.
Lay hands(once a day) vs. extra 100-200 hp(permanently, lvl 50)
Mounted combat vs. shield block
charge vs. sp
rescue>bash vs. bash>rescue(size)
spells(worst spell casters) vs innate abilities, better agi/dex/str/con, crit rates, size
handsome vs. ugly
The final end product is 2 very different classes, relatively well balanced. I want to tank better and so do warriors. Please check out our defensive skill checks. Once in awhile I tank good, sometimes I wonder if i have any spells up. Paladins are feeling the downgrades as much as you are. Don't be jealous about a better % to parry, it isn't helping me that much, and was unnoticeable til the downgrades. I rarely log on nowadays.
In no way am I asking for any downgrades to anybody, why would anybody else?
I think pc tanks need to be able to tank. If you think paladins are still overpowered(?), then
I suggest making paladins unable to use the commands flee/retreat. That is rp oriented and would have a negative effect which will lead to alot paladin deaths. But death b4 dishonor anyways.
Vvar – luv & peace
Trolls don't have 750-800hp. They have 700-750hp, although I haven't seen higher than 740. Also, you need 99 agility to get that last AC notch, otherwise you will have 65ac naked so that's only 5ac difference with goodies. Throw in a nice druid barkskin and any goodie tank has better AC. But that's besides the point, this is class vs class not race vs race.
Tanking - paladins. Damage - paladins. Charge/shieldpunch - charge stuns much more, lands same as shieldp from what I've seen. Spells / innates - paladins. XP - paladins. Bashing - warriors, yay. However this only counts if the tank is also bashing. If someone else in the group is, this can just as well be a paladin wearing a shield.
Easiest solution: don't allow mounting in indoor rooms and remove liches from goodies or give evils another class.
I'm all for paladins being playable, but they were playable last wipe too. They were more balanced then, because they tanked a bit worse despite getting the nice 2hnders, hitroll bonus and innates/xp/spells.
This wipe, they also tank at least as good as warriors. However, hey also kept all their old bonuses making they much more fun and powerful than warriors in my opinion. If this wasn't an issue enough, then evils' lack of them probably is.
I wonder what the gods think of this. I can only hope Miax groups with some paladins soon and sees it for himself.
Time for some staff replies, since everything else has already been said.
Tanking - paladins. Damage - paladins. Charge/shieldpunch - charge stuns much more, lands same as shieldp from what I've seen. Spells / innates - paladins. XP - paladins. Bashing - warriors, yay. However this only counts if the tank is also bashing. If someone else in the group is, this can just as well be a paladin wearing a shield.
Easiest solution: don't allow mounting in indoor rooms and remove liches from goodies or give evils another class.
I'm all for paladins being playable, but they were playable last wipe too. They were more balanced then, because they tanked a bit worse despite getting the nice 2hnders, hitroll bonus and innates/xp/spells.
This wipe, they also tank at least as good as warriors. However, hey also kept all their old bonuses making they much more fun and powerful than warriors in my opinion. If this wasn't an issue enough, then evils' lack of them probably is.
I wonder what the gods think of this. I can only hope Miax groups with some paladins soon and sees it for himself.
Time for some staff replies, since everything else has already been said.
And a dwarf warrior can just wear a polka dot for extra hit points to equalize that. They could also wear a roots belt for hp to open up the gap again if the human wore an amey belt.
Edited upon remembering the roots belt is also warriorable
[This message has been edited by Treladian (edited 10-27-2001).]
Edited upon remembering the roots belt is also warriorable
[This message has been edited by Treladian (edited 10-27-2001).]
Okay, listen. I've said this many times:
Charge is not nearly as good as shieldpunch.
Also, paladins can't charge without a mount. They also have to be mounted to do so.
If you're still hungup on this after orcs get to be antis, fine, but right now its silly.
Its like a rogue wanting to be able to cast spells like a ranger can.
Coincidentally, in tabletop DnD third edition, our paladin was a better tank than our warrior.
Dornax
Jurdex
Charge is not nearly as good as shieldpunch.
Also, paladins can't charge without a mount. They also have to be mounted to do so.
If you're still hungup on this after orcs get to be antis, fine, but right now its silly.
Its like a rogue wanting to be able to cast spells like a ranger can.
Coincidentally, in tabletop DnD third edition, our paladin was a better tank than our warrior.
Dornax
Jurdex
-
- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
When a paladins charges, and a mob is stunable... the mob is STUNED! guarenteed... which will stop spells. It also lags the mob exactly like shieldpunch. If a warrior shieldpunches, unless the warrior is bigger then the mob he dosent even have a CHANCE to stun.
Okay now. Ive watched paladins and antis charge and land more consistantly then my warrior could even 5 levels lower. If a paladin NEEDS to bash, guess what.. he dismounts... they get a bonus to bash with 2 handed weapons.
Okay they tank better. Cool they do more damage. Awesome they have better skills. Amazing they get spells. Paladins suck in comparrison to warriors. Your absolutely right, what was I ever thinking.
Warriors are complaining for no reason. We are making this up. HA HA....
You guys are just too dense for me...
*rolls his eyes*
Okay now. Ive watched paladins and antis charge and land more consistantly then my warrior could even 5 levels lower. If a paladin NEEDS to bash, guess what.. he dismounts... they get a bonus to bash with 2 handed weapons.
Okay they tank better. Cool they do more damage. Awesome they have better skills. Amazing they get spells. Paladins suck in comparrison to warriors. Your absolutely right, what was I ever thinking.
Warriors are complaining for no reason. We are making this up. HA HA....
You guys are just too dense for me...
*rolls his eyes*
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
And? So you want dwarf paladins? Like I said, wear a kostchtchie cloak or something. Voila, instant infra and extra con notch.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is a prime example of the uberleet thinking that _ev_ryone has access to the spankiest of spanky eq. How do arguments about kost gear, windsong, etc. pertain to the level 25 paladin? They generally don't.
Just saying we should focus on the naked class and commonly available gear, not quest eq or tough highlevel eq. Commonly available to someone playing the class as new to the mud, that is. IF highlevel eq is imbalancing don't you think it would make sense to adjust said eq?
Moritheil flashes his sparkling ac1 equipment. Rar.
And? So you want dwarf paladins? Like I said, wear a kostchtchie cloak or something. Voila, instant infra and extra con notch.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is a prime example of the uberleet thinking that _ev_ryone has access to the spankiest of spanky eq. How do arguments about kost gear, windsong, etc. pertain to the level 25 paladin? They generally don't.
Just saying we should focus on the naked class and commonly available gear, not quest eq or tough highlevel eq. Commonly available to someone playing the class as new to the mud, that is. IF highlevel eq is imbalancing don't you think it would make sense to adjust said eq?
Moritheil flashes his sparkling ac1 equipment. Rar.
Zrax...Targsk will have 745 at 50th nat...if I quit dying and get there. :P
I'm posting my opinion cause I think I'm entitled to one after playing a warrior for 6 years.
Ensis, your saying "warriors are doomed to 1handers and shields til they die" is a very offensive one....particularly to those of us who take pride in our tanking abilities. Don't spout off stuff like that, because it's that kind of pessimism that keeps attitudes shitty on this topic. We're all trying to rectify this situation, not make it worse.
Trolls can solo up to high 40's...don't believe me? Ask and I'll tell you what you can kill. It takes a LOT of time on your hands...hours upon hours. Paladins though...they can simply mem a few spells, get on their horsie, wield that flamberge and go at it to level 50. But, this isn't about solo exp.
Skills are what we're talking about here, so here's what I have to say on the subject.
Warriors were designed and intended to be the primary PC tanking class of this MUD. Not paladins. Paladins have always always had a nice run of things (don't ever try to tell me they used to suck, every damn paladin over level 25 used to run around with Ambran on Toril), and now they own the world of melee combat. The layhands wasn't that bad, the spells are fine, it was their hitroll bonus...18 to hit with master offense last I heard. The ability to tank while wielding a 2-handed weapon was a nice bonus, now it's just nuts. Having !fail bash while wielding 2h must be nice too....considering we're supposed to be the ones who are the "bashing meatshields"
*smirk*
There's nothing wrong with giving paladins a little boost...but c'mon...the hitroll thing needs some looking into. If we're getting reamed, they should at least take some kind of cut too. I mean, I could post a ton of logs that showed how badly I got beat down by WD captain/reaver/ZK Knight/Miplit/slaver any day of the week and you can see just how pathetic it is.
Warriors need to be able to max notch all their "unique" (ROFL) skills....I.E. headbutt. Headbutt is a joke. I've been playing with it since I got it, and I fail headbutt 60% of the time...KO'd myself 4 times...haven't KO'd a mob yet. Headbutt should be changed up to where the check is done not on whether you fail. You can't tell me that if I slammed the top of my forehead into your face, it wouldn't hurt you, as well as me if I didn't do it right! What I am proposing is:
Headbutt:
- Headbutt fails even do damage to the mob.
- The KO percentage blows! We should be able to KO a mob far more often than what we do. I'm not saying to make it where we become the replacement for major para, but jeez up it to 5% or something instead of this 1 in a 1000 crap. :P Keep KO on the PC in too...but drop it down to say.... 1/2 of 1% at max notch.
- Notching on headbutt needs fixing...only safe place to practice it that I've ever found is the Bloodstone slave cages, due to the KO factor and the # of mobs it takes to get 1 notch. Maybe I'm wrong about the notching though...I just hope you can max it out at 98 though, if not that would be a bonus.
- Up the damage a little bit on it. We get it at 40th level, you would think it would have more damage than kick *or* shieldpunch. Damage upgrade can be applied to us as well, I'll bite the bullet for failing a headbutt.
- If we do get KO'd, can you make it to where we can at least send tells/acc/ooc while we're out? It's a pain in the ass not being able to do anything *but* petition. :P
I'd like to see this one put in at least even if you don't upgrade the skill itself.
Disarm:
- Takes too long to practice, the risk of losing weapon to a crash is great the longer you practice it. Maybe fix the notching on this one too?
- The syntax is retarded....it's all backwards. :P Make it more simple to quickly disarm a mob instead of trying to "disarm sword guard"...then realizing that it's backwards and you have to type "disarm guard sword"! The mob name shouldn't even be needed if you already in combat though...that's the problem. In fast combat you don't have time to be typing out long commands like that. "disarm sword"
- Make disarm work a lot more often. It's spammy as hell seeing someone do it and failing or trying to pick up the weapon that they disarmed from a frost giant berserker in Jot. Fix the spammy messages.
- How many people do you know can stand in front of their weapon while getting their ass beaten on? I'd be picking it back up, not standing in front of it. Make it where both PC's and mobs will pick up their weapon and rewield it after 2 rounds upon disarming. Less triggers, less spam, easier on the eyes.
- We shouldn't be as good at disarming as rogues should be with their high dex and all. But we should still be good at it if we have the damn skill.
Hitall:
- The lag on it blows. Wayyyyyyy too long. Make it a normal 2 round lag like other skills.
- It never works on ALL mobs, like the skill says...heh. Sure it's fun in skeletons or other rooms with lots of easy aggros, but what's the point of using it in a serious situation? If it were lagged less, and hit *all* the mobs in the room, it would but utilized much more.
- Needs a notch fixing on it too! Notches too slow and way too slow to practice it. :P
Now, take this into consideration before laughing at my suggestions. We go from 22nd level getting disarm to 40th....where we get headbutt. No other skills between...and how often do you use headbutt? Or disarm? Or hitall? Basically most warriors are done getting skills at 20th level...don't tell me that's pathetic. We need either to have disarm, headbutt, and hitall worked on, or a new skill or two added. I'd rather see our current skills fixed, although I did think of a new skill that could be added at 30th. I'll discuss that later though.
Our primary tanking skills are not up to par with what they used to be...even when we used to only get the defensive skill check for the first hit each round, we still tanked better. Now we can dodge, parry, riposte, and shieldblock every hit, as well as the mob potentially missing...and we sit there and get beat on like redheaded stepchildren. Something's wrong with that. I dunno what was done with the "knobs" but may be turn them up a notch? Those tanking skills all need to be able to max. It's kinda dumb that I could get master dodge on a monk and not on a warrior. Riposte and parry seem to work the best, but shieldblock and dodge are lacking.
I thought of an idea on how to possibly give us a +stun bonus on shieldpunch. Factors: weight (big one), height (important), shield (duh). Now....these 3 things taken, how many items are there in the game that are + weight or height? Not many. But...how many + weight or really heavy shields are there?
Several. This factor should determine the stun factor most of all, the weight of the character + weight of the shield on a velocity calculator, that loses impact force upon each increasing foot and each 50 lbs on the mob. For example, a 100 lb elf, 5', holding a polished bone shield that weighs 40 lbs. That's 140 total, at 5'. Now, take this against a 10' ogre, who weighs 1000 lbs.
The stun percentage would be next to none. Because you gotta figure feet x lbs for the elf which is only a pathetic 700, and the ogre which is 10000....divide 10000 into 700 and you get .07...that's right a 7% chance to stun a 1000 lb ogre. That's miniscule considering how long the fight will last. Look at it the opposite way now. A 7' 300 lb troll shieldpunching a 6' 200 lb human. Do the math and you have 2100 into 1200. You come out with a 57% chance. Add a polished bone shield to both of these and the troll's advantage jumps up to 61%. Add one of those spanky tower shields to each (I'm not sure on stats but I think it was wt55 +40 wt) and you get a further bonus to 64%. Now...you say...that's not big right? Well, add an enchanter enlarge to the troll. That'll shoot the % up to I'm going to guess around 90%.
Basically what I'm showing is that the heavier the weight of the warrior, the greater their chance for stun on shieldpunch on mobs bigger than them....it only makes sense. This would help a ton for those of us who are made of Nitroglycerine and blow up if a spark hits us.
Speaking of trolls, something needs to be done about the insane amount of damage we take from clouds. I went from full hps (707 with hp rings on) to dead.....in *1* cloud from a frost giant mage last week. Yes, 1 cloud. My sv spell was 0, yes, but I was wearing *2* pieces of prot fire eq. Shouldn't this have some kind of save against my ass melting into a puddle of goo?
We have the biggest disadvantage of all,...lot of warriors are going ogre now instead of troll because ogres get better hitpoints and higher hit/dam. Sure they're stupider but who needs int/wis as an ogre warrior. They don't regen but the extra hps and not dying in 1 cloud makes up for it lately. Just hoping something could be done about prot fire eq maybe halving damage on fire-based spells. That way I'll live for 2 clouds, not one. Heh. :P
The new skill I was discussing earlier for 30th level was a skill called bumrush. It could be essentially used like having aggressive on, charging at a mob with a primal fury and slamming/stuning them on the ground...sure...sounds like bodyslam, but bumrush would almost put you in a berserk-like state, not granting any hit/dam bonuses or hp bonuses, but instead it doesn't allow the mob to switch at all, due to the fact that you're so up in its face it can smell the fava beans and chianti you had with the liver last night. You could bumrush a mob in mid-combat, but you could also miss and be stunned just as long as a bodyslam. Bumrush would have a vicious lag....take the hitall lag and give it to bumrush. The only disadvantage with bumrush would be not being able to switch opponents at all while the mob is alive. You're too focused on that particular one to stop fighting.
Just would make life a little easier for warriors in zones having to rescue on one less mob in 2nd gatehouse. *shrug*...just a really rough draft on a skill that takes the essence of berserk, bodyslam, aggressive and rolls them into a nice midlevel skill that can kamikaze yourself but at the same time be a nice benefit in a multi aggressive situation.
The only problem I see with warriors over all really is that they need a slight skill increase. Paladins need to have a normal required to hit for master offense like the rest of us hitting classes. Other than that, I'm done with this long-winded post. If anyone has any ideas about anything I said here please feel free to post it....just don't flame me cause I'm not criticizing or ranting, I'm just expressing what I've noticed over the past 6 years of playing.
Targsk - "spunch mage Targsk" "You got it boss" "Welcome to Sojourn."
I'm posting my opinion cause I think I'm entitled to one after playing a warrior for 6 years.
Ensis, your saying "warriors are doomed to 1handers and shields til they die" is a very offensive one....particularly to those of us who take pride in our tanking abilities. Don't spout off stuff like that, because it's that kind of pessimism that keeps attitudes shitty on this topic. We're all trying to rectify this situation, not make it worse.
Trolls can solo up to high 40's...don't believe me? Ask and I'll tell you what you can kill. It takes a LOT of time on your hands...hours upon hours. Paladins though...they can simply mem a few spells, get on their horsie, wield that flamberge and go at it to level 50. But, this isn't about solo exp.
Skills are what we're talking about here, so here's what I have to say on the subject.
Warriors were designed and intended to be the primary PC tanking class of this MUD. Not paladins. Paladins have always always had a nice run of things (don't ever try to tell me they used to suck, every damn paladin over level 25 used to run around with Ambran on Toril), and now they own the world of melee combat. The layhands wasn't that bad, the spells are fine, it was their hitroll bonus...18 to hit with master offense last I heard. The ability to tank while wielding a 2-handed weapon was a nice bonus, now it's just nuts. Having !fail bash while wielding 2h must be nice too....considering we're supposed to be the ones who are the "bashing meatshields"
*smirk*
There's nothing wrong with giving paladins a little boost...but c'mon...the hitroll thing needs some looking into. If we're getting reamed, they should at least take some kind of cut too. I mean, I could post a ton of logs that showed how badly I got beat down by WD captain/reaver/ZK Knight/Miplit/slaver any day of the week and you can see just how pathetic it is.
Warriors need to be able to max notch all their "unique" (ROFL) skills....I.E. headbutt. Headbutt is a joke. I've been playing with it since I got it, and I fail headbutt 60% of the time...KO'd myself 4 times...haven't KO'd a mob yet. Headbutt should be changed up to where the check is done not on whether you fail. You can't tell me that if I slammed the top of my forehead into your face, it wouldn't hurt you, as well as me if I didn't do it right! What I am proposing is:
Headbutt:
- Headbutt fails even do damage to the mob.
- The KO percentage blows! We should be able to KO a mob far more often than what we do. I'm not saying to make it where we become the replacement for major para, but jeez up it to 5% or something instead of this 1 in a 1000 crap. :P Keep KO on the PC in too...but drop it down to say.... 1/2 of 1% at max notch.
- Notching on headbutt needs fixing...only safe place to practice it that I've ever found is the Bloodstone slave cages, due to the KO factor and the # of mobs it takes to get 1 notch. Maybe I'm wrong about the notching though...I just hope you can max it out at 98 though, if not that would be a bonus.
- Up the damage a little bit on it. We get it at 40th level, you would think it would have more damage than kick *or* shieldpunch. Damage upgrade can be applied to us as well, I'll bite the bullet for failing a headbutt.
- If we do get KO'd, can you make it to where we can at least send tells/acc/ooc while we're out? It's a pain in the ass not being able to do anything *but* petition. :P
I'd like to see this one put in at least even if you don't upgrade the skill itself.
Disarm:
- Takes too long to practice, the risk of losing weapon to a crash is great the longer you practice it. Maybe fix the notching on this one too?
- The syntax is retarded....it's all backwards. :P Make it more simple to quickly disarm a mob instead of trying to "disarm sword guard"...then realizing that it's backwards and you have to type "disarm guard sword"! The mob name shouldn't even be needed if you already in combat though...that's the problem. In fast combat you don't have time to be typing out long commands like that. "disarm sword"
- Make disarm work a lot more often. It's spammy as hell seeing someone do it and failing or trying to pick up the weapon that they disarmed from a frost giant berserker in Jot. Fix the spammy messages.
- How many people do you know can stand in front of their weapon while getting their ass beaten on? I'd be picking it back up, not standing in front of it. Make it where both PC's and mobs will pick up their weapon and rewield it after 2 rounds upon disarming. Less triggers, less spam, easier on the eyes.
- We shouldn't be as good at disarming as rogues should be with their high dex and all. But we should still be good at it if we have the damn skill.
Hitall:
- The lag on it blows. Wayyyyyyy too long. Make it a normal 2 round lag like other skills.
- It never works on ALL mobs, like the skill says...heh. Sure it's fun in skeletons or other rooms with lots of easy aggros, but what's the point of using it in a serious situation? If it were lagged less, and hit *all* the mobs in the room, it would but utilized much more.
- Needs a notch fixing on it too! Notches too slow and way too slow to practice it. :P
Now, take this into consideration before laughing at my suggestions. We go from 22nd level getting disarm to 40th....where we get headbutt. No other skills between...and how often do you use headbutt? Or disarm? Or hitall? Basically most warriors are done getting skills at 20th level...don't tell me that's pathetic. We need either to have disarm, headbutt, and hitall worked on, or a new skill or two added. I'd rather see our current skills fixed, although I did think of a new skill that could be added at 30th. I'll discuss that later though.
Our primary tanking skills are not up to par with what they used to be...even when we used to only get the defensive skill check for the first hit each round, we still tanked better. Now we can dodge, parry, riposte, and shieldblock every hit, as well as the mob potentially missing...and we sit there and get beat on like redheaded stepchildren. Something's wrong with that. I dunno what was done with the "knobs" but may be turn them up a notch? Those tanking skills all need to be able to max. It's kinda dumb that I could get master dodge on a monk and not on a warrior. Riposte and parry seem to work the best, but shieldblock and dodge are lacking.
I thought of an idea on how to possibly give us a +stun bonus on shieldpunch. Factors: weight (big one), height (important), shield (duh). Now....these 3 things taken, how many items are there in the game that are + weight or height? Not many. But...how many + weight or really heavy shields are there?
Several. This factor should determine the stun factor most of all, the weight of the character + weight of the shield on a velocity calculator, that loses impact force upon each increasing foot and each 50 lbs on the mob. For example, a 100 lb elf, 5', holding a polished bone shield that weighs 40 lbs. That's 140 total, at 5'. Now, take this against a 10' ogre, who weighs 1000 lbs.
The stun percentage would be next to none. Because you gotta figure feet x lbs for the elf which is only a pathetic 700, and the ogre which is 10000....divide 10000 into 700 and you get .07...that's right a 7% chance to stun a 1000 lb ogre. That's miniscule considering how long the fight will last. Look at it the opposite way now. A 7' 300 lb troll shieldpunching a 6' 200 lb human. Do the math and you have 2100 into 1200. You come out with a 57% chance. Add a polished bone shield to both of these and the troll's advantage jumps up to 61%. Add one of those spanky tower shields to each (I'm not sure on stats but I think it was wt55 +40 wt) and you get a further bonus to 64%. Now...you say...that's not big right? Well, add an enchanter enlarge to the troll. That'll shoot the % up to I'm going to guess around 90%.
Basically what I'm showing is that the heavier the weight of the warrior, the greater their chance for stun on shieldpunch on mobs bigger than them....it only makes sense. This would help a ton for those of us who are made of Nitroglycerine and blow up if a spark hits us.
Speaking of trolls, something needs to be done about the insane amount of damage we take from clouds. I went from full hps (707 with hp rings on) to dead.....in *1* cloud from a frost giant mage last week. Yes, 1 cloud. My sv spell was 0, yes, but I was wearing *2* pieces of prot fire eq. Shouldn't this have some kind of save against my ass melting into a puddle of goo?
We have the biggest disadvantage of all,...lot of warriors are going ogre now instead of troll because ogres get better hitpoints and higher hit/dam. Sure they're stupider but who needs int/wis as an ogre warrior. They don't regen but the extra hps and not dying in 1 cloud makes up for it lately. Just hoping something could be done about prot fire eq maybe halving damage on fire-based spells. That way I'll live for 2 clouds, not one. Heh. :P
The new skill I was discussing earlier for 30th level was a skill called bumrush. It could be essentially used like having aggressive on, charging at a mob with a primal fury and slamming/stuning them on the ground...sure...sounds like bodyslam, but bumrush would almost put you in a berserk-like state, not granting any hit/dam bonuses or hp bonuses, but instead it doesn't allow the mob to switch at all, due to the fact that you're so up in its face it can smell the fava beans and chianti you had with the liver last night. You could bumrush a mob in mid-combat, but you could also miss and be stunned just as long as a bodyslam. Bumrush would have a vicious lag....take the hitall lag and give it to bumrush. The only disadvantage with bumrush would be not being able to switch opponents at all while the mob is alive. You're too focused on that particular one to stop fighting.
Just would make life a little easier for warriors in zones having to rescue on one less mob in 2nd gatehouse. *shrug*...just a really rough draft on a skill that takes the essence of berserk, bodyslam, aggressive and rolls them into a nice midlevel skill that can kamikaze yourself but at the same time be a nice benefit in a multi aggressive situation.
The only problem I see with warriors over all really is that they need a slight skill increase. Paladins need to have a normal required to hit for master offense like the rest of us hitting classes. Other than that, I'm done with this long-winded post. If anyone has any ideas about anything I said here please feel free to post it....just don't flame me cause I'm not criticizing or ranting, I'm just expressing what I've noticed over the past 6 years of playing.
Targsk - "spunch mage Targsk" "You got it boss" "Welcome to Sojourn."
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- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
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Gromikazer:
headbutt (master) (95)
My headbutt is high now, I use it alot.As far as I can tell it can get to 95 or 99. It does at 50th level.. 100 damage when you succeed and like 20-25 damage to myself when I fail.
I haven't knocked out a mob in a long time, but I've knocked myself out 35+ times.
3-4 minutes being unconcious is silly imo. It should be lowered to 1 minute max, and then I think would be a decent skill.
This is a 40th level skill. Rogues get assasinate. (Im not saying I want assasinate, Im just saying it dosent seem as the skill matches up really. :P)
COUGH COUGH ----> Plug warrior skills:
Specialize Weapon
Specialization in area of offense.
Class/Level: Warrior 30th level
When using a weapon type specialize in the user will hit others easier, and will hit harder. There are tales of masters of weapons so proficient that they became an extension of the user.
Specialize Defense
Reflexive skill.
Class/Level: Warrior 35th
When of the appropriate level a warrior will choose a type of defense afforded to his arsenal. The chosen defense will be able to be reinforced by the users extensive knowledge and practice.
WARNING: Specializing in Parry will yield the least results due to needing to learn how to parry with different weapons.
[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 10-28-2001).]
headbutt (master) (95)
My headbutt is high now, I use it alot.As far as I can tell it can get to 95 or 99. It does at 50th level.. 100 damage when you succeed and like 20-25 damage to myself when I fail.
I haven't knocked out a mob in a long time, but I've knocked myself out 35+ times.
3-4 minutes being unconcious is silly imo. It should be lowered to 1 minute max, and then I think would be a decent skill.
This is a 40th level skill. Rogues get assasinate. (Im not saying I want assasinate, Im just saying it dosent seem as the skill matches up really. :P)
COUGH COUGH ----> Plug warrior skills:
Specialize Weapon
Specialization in area of offense.
Class/Level: Warrior 30th level
When using a weapon type specialize in the user will hit others easier, and will hit harder. There are tales of masters of weapons so proficient that they became an extension of the user.
Specialize Defense
Reflexive skill.
Class/Level: Warrior 35th
When of the appropriate level a warrior will choose a type of defense afforded to his arsenal. The chosen defense will be able to be reinforced by the users extensive knowledge and practice.
WARNING: Specializing in Parry will yield the least results due to needing to learn how to parry with different weapons.
[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 10-28-2001).]
We get a bonus to bash twohanded:
Do you see any paladins bashing two handed when it counts?..no, whatever bonus it is isn't as dependable as a pbone.
We get spells:
Do you see any paladins casting anything besides bless and armor? the cure spells make you rest SLIGHTLY faster when soloing, but its usually faster just to recl and sleep.
We get mounts:
charge stuns for that half a second, the only thing this skill is good for is like the sp, it lags the mob for two rounds when it lands. Needless to say, there is NO consistency to when it lands.
Our Mounts:
Usually die within 2-3 area spells, flee ALL the time when roared, cannot be ridden everywhere, cannot be continuously ridden through most zones.. (ie: have to make an e;mount heavy attempt if we are foolish enough to try to tank those zones)
Holy Avenger:
As much as I drool over avenger, it is more of a novelty than anything. It keeps us from having to cast bless/armor, the occasional stone (which anyone that relies on that is a foo), supposedly proc's heal but i've never seen it. Dispel magic isn't exactly tactical when you're dispelling the blind/scarlet flame/ray that the casters just put onto the mob. And dispel evil is the same circle as cause critical, i doubt that provides as epic an effect as everyone makes it out to.
None of you take into account how much it sucks to be human. With all the best +HP equipment I MIGHT be able to get on par with a standard barb or dwarf, then if they pump up their HP equipment they still outweigh me with hps.
It IS a weakness, so you can't say "we're talking about class not race" because it is exclusively a human class. shitty hit points, no infravision, no regeneration, no huge size, can't bash a lot of stuff, no cool high strength/dex/con/agility.
I'd say use some of the energy bitching more constructively to give ideas for the imms about warriors, but I've yet to see any of them put any input on these posts.
Do you see any paladins bashing two handed when it counts?..no, whatever bonus it is isn't as dependable as a pbone.
We get spells:
Do you see any paladins casting anything besides bless and armor? the cure spells make you rest SLIGHTLY faster when soloing, but its usually faster just to recl and sleep.
We get mounts:
charge stuns for that half a second, the only thing this skill is good for is like the sp, it lags the mob for two rounds when it lands. Needless to say, there is NO consistency to when it lands.
Our Mounts:
Usually die within 2-3 area spells, flee ALL the time when roared, cannot be ridden everywhere, cannot be continuously ridden through most zones.. (ie: have to make an e;mount heavy attempt if we are foolish enough to try to tank those zones)
Holy Avenger:
As much as I drool over avenger, it is more of a novelty than anything. It keeps us from having to cast bless/armor, the occasional stone (which anyone that relies on that is a foo), supposedly proc's heal but i've never seen it. Dispel magic isn't exactly tactical when you're dispelling the blind/scarlet flame/ray that the casters just put onto the mob. And dispel evil is the same circle as cause critical, i doubt that provides as epic an effect as everyone makes it out to.
None of you take into account how much it sucks to be human. With all the best +HP equipment I MIGHT be able to get on par with a standard barb or dwarf, then if they pump up their HP equipment they still outweigh me with hps.
It IS a weakness, so you can't say "we're talking about class not race" because it is exclusively a human class. shitty hit points, no infravision, no regeneration, no huge size, can't bash a lot of stuff, no cool high strength/dex/con/agility.
I'd say use some of the energy bitching more constructively to give ideas for the imms about warriors, but I've yet to see any of them put any input on these posts.
FYI:
The THACO equation was completely rewritten during alpha. It was bugged for years.
I have 31 hitroll now and still miss fairly often.
Paladins do not get !fail bash with a 2h weapon.
I've already lost 3 hps from age. Being paladin = being human, which is among the weakest races for a fighter class.
Banning mount indoors would make as much sense as banning druids indoors. Why shouldn't I be able to ride my horse through a palace built by giants, or a cave built by a dragon?
Why the warriors are so hot to get paladins downgraded rather than their own classes improved on though, is beyond me. The classes this wipe are the best they have ever been. As far as I know, warriors have not yet had their 'overhaul' yet like paladins, druids, rogues, rangers, and illusionists have. They have no new skills/abilities than they did last wipe. This is the real reason why warriors feel their skills are lacking. And this is what you guys SHOULD be whining about, rather than criticizing the hard work someone put into making paladins a truly useful class.
By the way, why do you evils even care if paladins can tank a little better? We aren't fighting you. This isn't Duris. It won't help us get to tree to claim invasion any quicker either. It's influence on what evils can or can't achieve is absolutely ZERO.
The THACO equation was completely rewritten during alpha. It was bugged for years.
I have 31 hitroll now and still miss fairly often.
Paladins do not get !fail bash with a 2h weapon.
I've already lost 3 hps from age. Being paladin = being human, which is among the weakest races for a fighter class.
Banning mount indoors would make as much sense as banning druids indoors. Why shouldn't I be able to ride my horse through a palace built by giants, or a cave built by a dragon?
Why the warriors are so hot to get paladins downgraded rather than their own classes improved on though, is beyond me. The classes this wipe are the best they have ever been. As far as I know, warriors have not yet had their 'overhaul' yet like paladins, druids, rogues, rangers, and illusionists have. They have no new skills/abilities than they did last wipe. This is the real reason why warriors feel their skills are lacking. And this is what you guys SHOULD be whining about, rather than criticizing the hard work someone put into making paladins a truly useful class.
By the way, why do you evils even care if paladins can tank a little better? We aren't fighting you. This isn't Duris. It won't help us get to tree to claim invasion any quicker either. It's influence on what evils can or can't achieve is absolutely ZERO.
Ok...I posted what I did because I was expressing an opinion....not to hear the same thing I've already read from this thread 5 times over.
Paladins have spells, not my problem you only choose to use bless and armor. Not my problem you only utilize your skills when you feel like it...I use my skills for all their worth, we warriors have no choice but to.
HP's don't mean jack if you lose them in 2 hits. I could have 1.5k hps at lvl 50 and still die faster than a paladin with 700....I'm willing to prove that too.
Being human is not a weakness...human is the race from which all other races have advantages/disadvantages on. They are the "core" of all that which is stats. Being human is just simply being mundanely normal (statwise). :P And yes, this *is* about class not race, no one ever said "humans vs trolls/ogres", we said "warriors versus paladins".
!fail bash on paladins isn't what I intended to say originally...but how often do you see a paladin missing a bash if the mob is standing up? Hardly ever. So what if you can't bash a lot of mobs? Neither can I...hell I'm only 85 inches 289 lbs..I can't even bash an ogre...seriously, I'm too small.
The real reason we are "complaining", is not because of no new skills....it's because...if you'd read a little closer to the multiple posts, we have gone from being excellent tanks on Toril to being the redheaded stepchildren of the game, while paladins have suddenly become the revered gods of the tanking world. It's not good vs. evil, it's just warrior vs. paladin....goodie warriors don't complain cause most of em have paladins anyway. *shrug*
If THAC0 was so bugged....then why hasn't any other class changed? Besides...wasn't THAC0 removed years ago? Heh.
Oh yeah...another thing I remembered about my headbutt evaluation....
Why is it we cannot headbutt mobs that we can bash/bodyslam/kick/shieldpunch? Makes no sense to me. Something possibly wrong with the check on size?
Please don't repeat things over again....it just makes this thread drag out even further. I'm just simply showing an evaluation from personal opinion. Not trying to start a war here. Additions to my opinions or constructive criticism (that's new) is fine but it's starting to turn awful redundant reading the same thing over and over again.
I have a good idea as to how those of us who are talking on this thread can see what the other class is truly like.
Swap chars for a day with someone on the other side....I'll swap with a paladin, he uses my char. Then you'll see what we're talking about, and we can see where you're coming from...cause I haven't honestly ever played a paladin. I'm only going by what I see and what I hear from them.
Paladins have spells, not my problem you only choose to use bless and armor. Not my problem you only utilize your skills when you feel like it...I use my skills for all their worth, we warriors have no choice but to.
HP's don't mean jack if you lose them in 2 hits. I could have 1.5k hps at lvl 50 and still die faster than a paladin with 700....I'm willing to prove that too.
Being human is not a weakness...human is the race from which all other races have advantages/disadvantages on. They are the "core" of all that which is stats. Being human is just simply being mundanely normal (statwise). :P And yes, this *is* about class not race, no one ever said "humans vs trolls/ogres", we said "warriors versus paladins".
!fail bash on paladins isn't what I intended to say originally...but how often do you see a paladin missing a bash if the mob is standing up? Hardly ever. So what if you can't bash a lot of mobs? Neither can I...hell I'm only 85 inches 289 lbs..I can't even bash an ogre...seriously, I'm too small.
The real reason we are "complaining", is not because of no new skills....it's because...if you'd read a little closer to the multiple posts, we have gone from being excellent tanks on Toril to being the redheaded stepchildren of the game, while paladins have suddenly become the revered gods of the tanking world. It's not good vs. evil, it's just warrior vs. paladin....goodie warriors don't complain cause most of em have paladins anyway. *shrug*
If THAC0 was so bugged....then why hasn't any other class changed? Besides...wasn't THAC0 removed years ago? Heh.
Oh yeah...another thing I remembered about my headbutt evaluation....
Why is it we cannot headbutt mobs that we can bash/bodyslam/kick/shieldpunch? Makes no sense to me. Something possibly wrong with the check on size?
Please don't repeat things over again....it just makes this thread drag out even further. I'm just simply showing an evaluation from personal opinion. Not trying to start a war here. Additions to my opinions or constructive criticism (that's new) is fine but it's starting to turn awful redundant reading the same thing over and over again.
I have a good idea as to how those of us who are talking on this thread can see what the other class is truly like.
Swap chars for a day with someone on the other side....I'll swap with a paladin, he uses my char. Then you'll see what we're talking about, and we can see where you're coming from...cause I haven't honestly ever played a paladin. I'm only going by what I see and what I hear from them.
It sounds to me that most of the upset people are troll warriors. They went from being the prime-time warrior class that could regen and solo all the way up to level 40 and beyond, to being a bit more toned down, and down with the rest of the warriors.
In my opinion, trolls were always a bit too powerful. I don't think the extra damage they took from fire spells was enough to counter-balance the great dex/agi/sct/con they had, as well as the regen. Tell me again why female trolls can bash ogres? There should be a huge size discrepency there. I am not trying to pick on trolls, but I just think they are going to have to get over it and join the other races/classes who are no where near what they used to be, when comparing them to the mud this time around.
I still think headbutt should be made a bit more useful though. I think that the warrior should not EVER have to worry about KO'ing himself, and that the mob should be the only one who has to worry about getting knocked out. Also please get rid of the size checking it does. Yeah a gnome should not be headbutting a warrior, but who said the headbutt had to connect with someone else's head? Headbutt to the crotch would be even more painful!
Lyt
In my opinion, trolls were always a bit too powerful. I don't think the extra damage they took from fire spells was enough to counter-balance the great dex/agi/sct/con they had, as well as the regen. Tell me again why female trolls can bash ogres? There should be a huge size discrepency there. I am not trying to pick on trolls, but I just think they are going to have to get over it and join the other races/classes who are no where near what they used to be, when comparing them to the mud this time around.
I still think headbutt should be made a bit more useful though. I think that the warrior should not EVER have to worry about KO'ing himself, and that the mob should be the only one who has to worry about getting knocked out. Also please get rid of the size checking it does. Yeah a gnome should not be headbutting a warrior, but who said the headbutt had to connect with someone else's head? Headbutt to the crotch would be even more painful!
Lyt
I have to agree with what Lyt said. I also think people are whining too much about how evil warriors suck. All in the hps anyways, dwarf and barbarian simply get a 670-680 average at level 50 and trolls get 740-750, ogres maybe more if not the same as troll. I know that warriors sp were toned down a little but good for the game. We been doing the same zones over and over till we got so sick of it regardless of the downgrade, maybe you should look at the group's coordination and do zones as a team and not always think of it as an individual. There are just simply too many spells to help the tank and sure sometimes you get unlucky and take a lot of damage even with spells but as I said, rotate tanks are part of working as a team when doing zones. Btw we have not had enchanters much still and still do zones without specialize stoneskin and globes. Work with what you got. Would like to note don't be afraid to die in zones, it's part of the game, just deal.
Yes I think paladin still tanking better than warriors, but not as much better as you would think. I hounded the gods about this issue 2 times each time they found a bug in defensive skill check and they are tanking a little more in par with the warriors while mounted. The problem may lie in procing weapons. Ambran is not a big tanking weapon but it does stone (btw ambran still needs it's proc fix, it does some weird dispel magic, sometimes dispel evil). Deathknell is the real tanking weapons. Maybe downgrade the weapon a little procing less especially the heal proc could be an idea. Total respect for Kalthanan who stuck with the class he likes back in the days when they sucked.
Yes I think paladin still tanking better than warriors, but not as much better as you would think. I hounded the gods about this issue 2 times each time they found a bug in defensive skill check and they are tanking a little more in par with the warriors while mounted. The problem may lie in procing weapons. Ambran is not a big tanking weapon but it does stone (btw ambran still needs it's proc fix, it does some weird dispel magic, sometimes dispel evil). Deathknell is the real tanking weapons. Maybe downgrade the weapon a little procing less especially the heal proc could be an idea. Total respect for Kalthanan who stuck with the class he likes back in the days when they sucked.
Well.. i recently started playing a paladin instead of my barby warrior (to group with my friends who are about 10 levels lower than my warrior).. I think my warrior is MUCH easier to play and just about as good.. the only reason its only Just about as good is because he can't heal himself occasionally so a cleric wont be too neccessary when grouping with my friends.
Essentially the paladins get much less hps, cant bash nearly as well (i mean, even when im tanking with my barbarian warrior it is like a 99% bash rate so i bash anyway) and paladins bash sucks bad compared to it (i miss nearly 50% of them with pbone, granted im not as skilled, but at the same level my warrior was still getting about 85% bash)
so that means even soloing is kind of rough w/o bash, plus, You HAVE to kill evil mobs, and so that really restricts what you can kill.. personally, im keeping my primary as a warrior.. i really think he is better than the pallydork.. but the pally is kinda fun and has neat little things like lay hands, -30 ac armor spell, bless(which i don't even really need considering i have 22 hitroll anyway , and a few cures which can occasionally come in handy..
compared to troll regen, layhands and cure light/serious? now whenever ive grouped with trolls with my evil i see them get hurt, sure, but i saw almost NO regen with recline/sleeping like i have to do with my barby and paladin... then what else do paladins get? oh, 2handed bonus? (how many ppl have a flamberge they can give me? :P ) right now im just using holy longsword and pbone so can't really comment on this except that im sure finding the AC to makup for the shield loss will be difficult (and remember, their 2h bash still really sucks compared to a warrior).. ive been invited at level 33 into groups of level 45+s(with pally tank) just because they need a basher.... then the pally split so i turned into the tank, granted, they had to work hard with stones/heals to keep me alive but i could bash and tank and therefore everyone got more exp than before...
anyway.. the point is, Paladins are more difficult to play than warriors have many more problems/hardships and so i think they should get the bonuses they get.. i personally think warriors are better in many ways.. *shrug* pls don't think paladins are way overpowered or that they shouldn't tank as well until you have played one to a respectable level...
Essentially the paladins get much less hps, cant bash nearly as well (i mean, even when im tanking with my barbarian warrior it is like a 99% bash rate so i bash anyway) and paladins bash sucks bad compared to it (i miss nearly 50% of them with pbone, granted im not as skilled, but at the same level my warrior was still getting about 85% bash)
so that means even soloing is kind of rough w/o bash, plus, You HAVE to kill evil mobs, and so that really restricts what you can kill.. personally, im keeping my primary as a warrior.. i really think he is better than the pallydork.. but the pally is kinda fun and has neat little things like lay hands, -30 ac armor spell, bless(which i don't even really need considering i have 22 hitroll anyway , and a few cures which can occasionally come in handy..
compared to troll regen, layhands and cure light/serious? now whenever ive grouped with trolls with my evil i see them get hurt, sure, but i saw almost NO regen with recline/sleeping like i have to do with my barby and paladin... then what else do paladins get? oh, 2handed bonus? (how many ppl have a flamberge they can give me? :P ) right now im just using holy longsword and pbone so can't really comment on this except that im sure finding the AC to makup for the shield loss will be difficult (and remember, their 2h bash still really sucks compared to a warrior).. ive been invited at level 33 into groups of level 45+s(with pally tank) just because they need a basher.... then the pally split so i turned into the tank, granted, they had to work hard with stones/heals to keep me alive but i could bash and tank and therefore everyone got more exp than before...
anyway.. the point is, Paladins are more difficult to play than warriors have many more problems/hardships and so i think they should get the bonuses they get.. i personally think warriors are better in many ways.. *shrug* pls don't think paladins are way overpowered or that they shouldn't tank as well until you have played one to a respectable level...
Yeah, 50hp more for trolls than for goodie warriors really makes up for eating 800hp clouds.
Excuse me while I laugh in your face. If you want power, play ogre.
BTW 1, good job of changing the thread from paladin vs warrior to race vs race to cover your own 2hnding-3xwarriordamage-casting-layhanding-paladin behinds.
BTW 2, if you can't answer the question "Why do evils even care if paladins can tank better?" yourself, you are missing a few screws.
BTW 3, you can all stop replying, it's obvious the staff doesn't care or thinks everything is fine, or just maybe they are busy coding psis for goodies, I'm sure they will go just fine with goodie liches. All we needed here is an answer on why paladins tank at least as good as warriors while getting a ton of useful extras, but we aren't getting it. End of story.
[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 10-29-2001).]
Excuse me while I laugh in your face. If you want power, play ogre.
BTW 1, good job of changing the thread from paladin vs warrior to race vs race to cover your own 2hnding-3xwarriordamage-casting-layhanding-paladin behinds.
BTW 2, if you can't answer the question "Why do evils even care if paladins can tank better?" yourself, you are missing a few screws.
BTW 3, you can all stop replying, it's obvious the staff doesn't care or thinks everything is fine, or just maybe they are busy coding psis for goodies, I'm sure they will go just fine with goodie liches. All we needed here is an answer on why paladins tank at least as good as warriors while getting a ton of useful extras, but we aren't getting it. End of story.
[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 10-29-2001).]
Warriors tank good, pallys tank good.
I, and others I have spoken to miss dearly being able to solo things as a warrior, just dont seem to have the damage anymore. Would like a little more, less than all other hitting classes bu something enough so we can tackle a mob our size ora bit less and have a chance.
Been a few good ideas for warrior skills around, I still support my idea for a fighting retreat like in D&D...before anyone says that would be useless, i would use it :P
Have a fabulous day
Sarell/Ladak/etc
I, and others I have spoken to miss dearly being able to solo things as a warrior, just dont seem to have the damage anymore. Would like a little more, less than all other hitting classes bu something enough so we can tackle a mob our size ora bit less and have a chance.
Been a few good ideas for warrior skills around, I still support my idea for a fighting retreat like in D&D...before anyone says that would be useless, i would use it :P
Have a fabulous day
Sarell/Ladak/etc
in reply to: "All we needed here is an answer on why paladins tank at least as good as warriors while getting a ton of useful extras, but we aren't getting it. End of story."
i said why i think they should, because they are much more difficult to play than a simple warrior.. their advantages still have their drawbacks (layhands is only good once per game day.. so its a nice once to get you out of trouble but then you have to sit around awhile or be more careful) and their pray times suck so bad that their healing spells aren't realy worth it (all i ever see pallys cast is armor, which any warrior could easily get a potion for).. and then they have to put up with no killing good/neut mobs and making sure their groupies don't too.. and sucky bash (which really makes a huge difference) cherza, have you played a paladin to a decent level yet? id like to see how you like Your paladin, wether you think its Over powered and way too good for how easy it is to play etc...
(1 btw- aside from dieing firey deaths don't trolls rock? i mean really, why is your primary a troll if they are so weak? it might be rough when you get in those circumstances where you feel you need to fight a mob where that could be a risk, but other than that, the regen rate must really be good if you are playing that instead of an ogre, along with 75% of the evil warriors)
i thought part of the point behind this point was that evils think they are missing a valuable tank resource that they need, i think that im trying to point out that troll regen rate is high enough in many circumstances to fix that, plus, they get more hps, don't have to worry about a mount and can kill any mob w/o worrying about losing exp.. (only drawback is the fiery death my question though is.. why aren't these spellcasters casting the clouds bashed so they don't cast? (i really haven't had any problem with casters yet. but maybe i haven't been under the right circumstances..)
let me know how you like playing a paladin at level 30-40 (my guess is its not as easy as a troll is)
i said why i think they should, because they are much more difficult to play than a simple warrior.. their advantages still have their drawbacks (layhands is only good once per game day.. so its a nice once to get you out of trouble but then you have to sit around awhile or be more careful) and their pray times suck so bad that their healing spells aren't realy worth it (all i ever see pallys cast is armor, which any warrior could easily get a potion for).. and then they have to put up with no killing good/neut mobs and making sure their groupies don't too.. and sucky bash (which really makes a huge difference) cherza, have you played a paladin to a decent level yet? id like to see how you like Your paladin, wether you think its Over powered and way too good for how easy it is to play etc...
(1 btw- aside from dieing firey deaths don't trolls rock? i mean really, why is your primary a troll if they are so weak? it might be rough when you get in those circumstances where you feel you need to fight a mob where that could be a risk, but other than that, the regen rate must really be good if you are playing that instead of an ogre, along with 75% of the evil warriors)
i thought part of the point behind this point was that evils think they are missing a valuable tank resource that they need, i think that im trying to point out that troll regen rate is high enough in many circumstances to fix that, plus, they get more hps, don't have to worry about a mount and can kill any mob w/o worrying about losing exp.. (only drawback is the fiery death my question though is.. why aren't these spellcasters casting the clouds bashed so they don't cast? (i really haven't had any problem with casters yet. but maybe i haven't been under the right circumstances..)
let me know how you like playing a paladin at level 30-40 (my guess is its not as easy as a troll is)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zoldren:
<B>moritheil,
My lvl 24 anti charges/stuns more consistant and easier than my lvl 35 troll sp's....I have solod them both to their lvl
also b4 war downgrades the could solo the same mobs... now war is just screwed soloing, so much for soloing afk fun :P</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanx uncle Zold... relevant facts on the issues that most of the mud will face.
To *all* people on the race/class issue, think about the fact that even lich is a class now. Oh, and I would have to admit that human paladin would likely be superior to a human warrior...
<B>moritheil,
My lvl 24 anti charges/stuns more consistant and easier than my lvl 35 troll sp's....I have solod them both to their lvl
also b4 war downgrades the could solo the same mobs... now war is just screwed soloing, so much for soloing afk fun :P</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanx uncle Zold... relevant facts on the issues that most of the mud will face.
To *all* people on the race/class issue, think about the fact that even lich is a class now. Oh, and I would have to admit that human paladin would likely be superior to a human warrior...
-
- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
This topic look familiar. Yeah, whoever listen to Evils anyway.
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000415.html
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000415.html
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