You know what's funny? I just did hours of spirit raven xp with a level 48 paladin tank.
You know what?
2 out of 3 runs, HE NEVER GOT HIT BY EITHER THE SLAVER OR THE CAPTAIN. AND I MEAN NOT ONCE in two pops. Got hit maybe five times during an entire pop. No we didn't have an illusionist, we just had a lvl 39 enchanter and a lvl 32 cleric.
So he had only 566hp without a vit. That's 100hp less than a warrior. You know how much more valuable he is as a tank than a warrior? Which would you rather have option A) 100 more hp and lose it in the 1st round because of worse skills, or option B) 100 less hp but skills which are so much better you just don't get hit, plus all the nice extras paladins get?
You know what? He was wielding a nice 2hnder too.
So let's see. 150hp less, but ability to wield a 2hnder with no tanking penalty, ability to get by with just 14hitroll and better rescue (or so I'm told), layhands, heal and other spells. Or just plain old warrior with shitty 1handers, shieldblock which doesn't work and other skills which just suck in comparison. But then again you don't have a choice as evil.
Cherzra warriors are tanks? yeah right.
paladin tanking and warrior's role if they still have any
paladin horse caused a slight problem in cc yesterday i hear...tell me that isnt a disadvantage and watch me laugh in your face.
those damn horses are a liability, and without it your paladin cannot punch or tank as well. granted this should be looked at but i think you are just whining now. wah i want your troll hps and regen and size. no wait no i dont, i play a dwarf warrior because i enjoy it.
those damn horses are a liability, and without it your paladin cannot punch or tank as well. granted this should be looked at but i think you are just whining now. wah i want your troll hps and regen and size. no wait no i dont, i play a dwarf warrior because i enjoy it.
Gormal, THANK YOU for bringing that up!
Paladins make great tanks and rescuers to be sure. They can even heal themselves. That gives them a freakin role in groups. So, ya know what, they get snaped up for groups.
But what do most ppl forget? The horses ARE a liability. I was in that CC group and died because of that dumbass horse. The damn thing was put to death for causing that trouble too. What's more, you have to remember to haul em along and must be able to summon them. When paladins fall off, or cannot mount their horses...then you see them suffer hard.
They got a benefit...with a drawback. Its fine the way it is. Maybe horses should be made harder to summon or summoned more infrequently. I've no experience there, so...
Do warriors get screwed? Not because of that. From what I've seen, warriors are still the preferred commodity. Don't get me wrong though. I think they got screwed with the recent changes to defensive skills. But, that's not what this subject is about.
Izzy
Paladins make great tanks and rescuers to be sure. They can even heal themselves. That gives them a freakin role in groups. So, ya know what, they get snaped up for groups.
But what do most ppl forget? The horses ARE a liability. I was in that CC group and died because of that dumbass horse. The damn thing was put to death for causing that trouble too. What's more, you have to remember to haul em along and must be able to summon them. When paladins fall off, or cannot mount their horses...then you see them suffer hard.
They got a benefit...with a drawback. Its fine the way it is. Maybe horses should be made harder to summon or summoned more infrequently. I've no experience there, so...
Do warriors get screwed? Not because of that. From what I've seen, warriors are still the preferred commodity. Don't get me wrong though. I think they got screwed with the recent changes to defensive skills. But, that's not what this subject is about.
Izzy
In no way should any other class out tank a warrior, mounted, flying, invisible, smoking a joint, wrapped in hot-pink christmas paper and tied with a bow..i dont give a rat's ass what it is, warriors ARE the tanks, and should be TANKS.
Let's stop calling them tanks. they are fighters. they are the PURE fighters. they are supposed to be the best at deflecting damage incoming WITHOUT having ot have 1200hp to survive it.
If it wasnt for my ebony i couldnt tank shit. I tanked better on toril wielding a flammey and -50 ac.
I've heard of a certain imm playing a warrior atm. hopefully this person will see what the rest of us also see.
Let's stop calling them tanks. they are fighters. they are the PURE fighters. they are supposed to be the best at deflecting damage incoming WITHOUT having ot have 1200hp to survive it.
If it wasnt for my ebony i couldnt tank shit. I tanked better on toril wielding a flammey and -50 ac.
I've heard of a certain imm playing a warrior atm. hopefully this person will see what the rest of us also see.
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Galok Icewolf
- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
I'm sure everyone's seen it first hand.
I also notice that no paladins, save one, are posting their stats on the thread i started last week. if anyone wants those triggers let me know. i hate cuting and pasting shit to the bbs.
a paladin has innate PFE, which helps big time, can solo for insane number of levels, get exp bonus on top of damage xp, can heal themselves using spells and blessed water just as quick as a troll can regen to full health, have a get out of death free card, dont need as high a hitroll as a warrior when wielding a 2h, and can wield a 2h while tanking.
and also note My troll top row 100's 31/26 -100 ac no armor potion
my anti top row 100's same gear 31/25 -84 ac no armor potion. that's only a 1 point damage difference, and soon she wont need 31 hitroll
oh yeah paladins -30 from armor spell, so can get away with lower ac items that are higher damage.
the horse is a libality at times, but not as frequent a liability as getting owned in 4 rounds by something 5 levels lower than me.
[This message has been edited by Grintor (edited 10-20-2001).]
I also notice that no paladins, save one, are posting their stats on the thread i started last week. if anyone wants those triggers let me know. i hate cuting and pasting shit to the bbs.
a paladin has innate PFE, which helps big time, can solo for insane number of levels, get exp bonus on top of damage xp, can heal themselves using spells and blessed water just as quick as a troll can regen to full health, have a get out of death free card, dont need as high a hitroll as a warrior when wielding a 2h, and can wield a 2h while tanking.
and also note My troll top row 100's 31/26 -100 ac no armor potion
my anti top row 100's same gear 31/25 -84 ac no armor potion. that's only a 1 point damage difference, and soon she wont need 31 hitroll
oh yeah paladins -30 from armor spell, so can get away with lower ac items that are higher damage.
the horse is a libality at times, but not as frequent a liability as getting owned in 4 rounds by something 5 levels lower than me.
[This message has been edited by Grintor (edited 10-20-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Grintor:
<B>In no way should any other class out tank a warrior, mounted, flying, invisible, smoking a joint, wrapped in hot-pink christmas paper and tied with a bow..i dont give a rat's ass what it is, warriors ARE the tanks, and should be TANKS.
Let's stop calling them tanks. they are fighters. they are the PURE fighters. they are supposed to be the best at deflecting damage incoming WITHOUT having ot have 1200hp to survive it.
If it wasnt for my ebony i couldnt tank shit. I tanked better on toril wielding a flammey and -50 ac.
I've heard of a certain imm playing a warrior atm. hopefully this person will see what the rest of us also see.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Heh I saw him first :P got yelled at by a certain someone for pointing it out. And you know what, I hear he found it quite fun =)
Paladins are fighters too. I'm not saying one should be superior than the other, but don't act as if it's a rogue tanking better than you or something
And hey, maybe you should try taking some anti's... er... if OC goes back in... doh.
<B>In no way should any other class out tank a warrior, mounted, flying, invisible, smoking a joint, wrapped in hot-pink christmas paper and tied with a bow..i dont give a rat's ass what it is, warriors ARE the tanks, and should be TANKS.
Let's stop calling them tanks. they are fighters. they are the PURE fighters. they are supposed to be the best at deflecting damage incoming WITHOUT having ot have 1200hp to survive it.
If it wasnt for my ebony i couldnt tank shit. I tanked better on toril wielding a flammey and -50 ac.
I've heard of a certain imm playing a warrior atm. hopefully this person will see what the rest of us also see.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Heh I saw him first :P got yelled at by a certain someone for pointing it out. And you know what, I hear he found it quite fun =)
Paladins are fighters too. I'm not saying one should be superior than the other, but don't act as if it's a rogue tanking better than you or something
And hey, maybe you should try taking some anti's... er... if OC goes back in... doh.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Grintor:
<B>I'm sure everyone's seen it first hand.
a paladin has innate PFE, which helps big time, can solo for insane number of levels, get exp bonus on top of damage xp, can heal themselves using spells and blessed water just as quick as a troll can regen to full health, have a get out of death free card, dont need as high a hitroll as a warrior when wielding a 2h, and can wield a 2h while tanking.
the horse is a libality at times, but not as frequent a liability as getting owned in 4 rounds by something 5 levels lower than me.
[This message has been edited by Grintor (edited 10-20-2001).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmm... you can get items that are pfe/pfg or get spell cast; I'm sure there are potions somewhere too.
Trolls can solo for *quite* a bit of levels. Sure, eventually you need stone, but it's the same for palis. Healing yourself - troll regen is the original badass solo aid. Unholy water isn't so hard to make, if you play an evil, either.
Wielding a 2h - omg omg he's wielding a 2h! omgomg he has ac bonus! Heh... that's like saying omg omg that mage is wearing +hps eq, WHO would have thought of it?!!
Now, that being said. AC bonus is for palis to be able to not wear shield. Hitroll bonus is for them to deal better damage. Read that twice. They are *supposed* to deal better damage. As to whether or not they are supposed to tank better, who knows? Maybe under those narrow circumstances they are supposed to.
However, I do agre that trolls' regen should not be totally outclassed by pali self-healing (lay aside). I think it was mentioned that trolls do not gain extra regen rate for sleeping. I'm sure this could all be fixed if the double heal rate was reinstituted for sleeping trolls. I am a bit skeptical, mind you, because when *memming* those heals paladins have about the mem time of an ogre.
My two pieces of bark. *waits for flames to pile up*
<B>I'm sure everyone's seen it first hand.
a paladin has innate PFE, which helps big time, can solo for insane number of levels, get exp bonus on top of damage xp, can heal themselves using spells and blessed water just as quick as a troll can regen to full health, have a get out of death free card, dont need as high a hitroll as a warrior when wielding a 2h, and can wield a 2h while tanking.
the horse is a libality at times, but not as frequent a liability as getting owned in 4 rounds by something 5 levels lower than me.
[This message has been edited by Grintor (edited 10-20-2001).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmm... you can get items that are pfe/pfg or get spell cast; I'm sure there are potions somewhere too.
Trolls can solo for *quite* a bit of levels. Sure, eventually you need stone, but it's the same for palis. Healing yourself - troll regen is the original badass solo aid. Unholy water isn't so hard to make, if you play an evil, either.
Wielding a 2h - omg omg he's wielding a 2h! omgomg he has ac bonus! Heh... that's like saying omg omg that mage is wearing +hps eq, WHO would have thought of it?!!
Now, that being said. AC bonus is for palis to be able to not wear shield. Hitroll bonus is for them to deal better damage. Read that twice. They are *supposed* to deal better damage. As to whether or not they are supposed to tank better, who knows? Maybe under those narrow circumstances they are supposed to.
However, I do agre that trolls' regen should not be totally outclassed by pali self-healing (lay aside). I think it was mentioned that trolls do not gain extra regen rate for sleeping. I'm sure this could all be fixed if the double heal rate was reinstituted for sleeping trolls. I am a bit skeptical, mind you, because when *memming* those heals paladins have about the mem time of an ogre.
My two pieces of bark. *waits for flames to pile up*
Why the heck are you people still whining about paladins?
This is like comparing squids to druids.
Uh, you can't.
You cannot compare a paladin to any of the evil races. Warriors are necessary, paladins are not.
Paladins get a bone (wow, they tank a little better in zones, a little mind you, not a ton) after being USELESS every other incarnation of this mud and all the evil warriors get jealous.
What is the deal?!
Paladins should tank better than any warrior mounted. They do.
Paladins get to 2h while they tank to fit the motif of the class and add another dimension to their groupability.
If you want to 2h and tank (which makes no sense, warriors have never been damage dealers and never will be), play a mounted tank. No one is stopping you. If you want to be a meat shield that will *always* be needed and have tons of utilities, play a warrior.
Dornax
Jurdex
This is like comparing squids to druids.
Uh, you can't.
You cannot compare a paladin to any of the evil races. Warriors are necessary, paladins are not.
Paladins get a bone (wow, they tank a little better in zones, a little mind you, not a ton) after being USELESS every other incarnation of this mud and all the evil warriors get jealous.
What is the deal?!
Paladins should tank better than any warrior mounted. They do.
Paladins get to 2h while they tank to fit the motif of the class and add another dimension to their groupability.
If you want to 2h and tank (which makes no sense, warriors have never been damage dealers and never will be), play a mounted tank. No one is stopping you. If you want to be a meat shield that will *always* be needed and have tons of utilities, play a warrior.
Dornax
Jurdex
Actually trolls cant solo that well, not compared to the anti i rolled.
If it wasnt for my ebony longsword i'd still be stuck at level 20. yes i was fortunate to get it, but anything my level beat my ass down to nearly dead at level 20 once this 'bug' was fixed.
this is true for any warrior, regardless of race.
the fact that my level 12 anti solo'd the nightfall assassin on bgr (unarmed of course) and was never in any danger of dying and was never dismounted makes the point and proved it to me. a paladin can solo to 50, a warrior can not.
as the mud is supposed to be putting an end to the solo class effectiveness (read: necro pet downgrades) why is a paladin so uber?
oh and i think cherzra's post in the logs section should be proof enough for anyone. I've done ship nearly every day since about three weeks after the mud reopened. no troll or ogre has tanked slaver/reavers/miplit/knight that effectively, regardless of ac or enchantments. to go a whole fight against one and only have it hit you once, or NEVER, no level 50 troll can have that done now. if it was possible, one of our best geared level 50 trolls wouldnt have posted the log.
and a troll is supposed to be the best tanking race for a warrior since they have really high agi, con, hp, same str as barb and really good dex and regen.
[This message has been edited by Grintor (edited 10-21-2001).]
If it wasnt for my ebony longsword i'd still be stuck at level 20. yes i was fortunate to get it, but anything my level beat my ass down to nearly dead at level 20 once this 'bug' was fixed.
this is true for any warrior, regardless of race.
the fact that my level 12 anti solo'd the nightfall assassin on bgr (unarmed of course) and was never in any danger of dying and was never dismounted makes the point and proved it to me. a paladin can solo to 50, a warrior can not.
as the mud is supposed to be putting an end to the solo class effectiveness (read: necro pet downgrades) why is a paladin so uber?
oh and i think cherzra's post in the logs section should be proof enough for anyone. I've done ship nearly every day since about three weeks after the mud reopened. no troll or ogre has tanked slaver/reavers/miplit/knight that effectively, regardless of ac or enchantments. to go a whole fight against one and only have it hit you once, or NEVER, no level 50 troll can have that done now. if it was possible, one of our best geared level 50 trolls wouldnt have posted the log.
and a troll is supposed to be the best tanking race for a warrior since they have really high agi, con, hp, same str as barb and really good dex and regen.
[This message has been edited by Grintor (edited 10-21-2001).]
keep in mind, none of us on the evil side, on any god damned side (why the fuck are there sides anyway? too much segregation..) want to see paladins downgraded.
we want to see warriors able to do their job other than stand in front and hope to hell that person told to fh on entry makes qc or the whole group gets wiped out.
what fun is that? it's not. the evils have a smaller pbase and dont have paladins. in order to do xp we need warrior, cleric, enchanter, invoker..maybe two vokers. 6 man group. on ship i frequently see paladin, shaman...or paladin cleric chanter, or paladin voker cleric. no way in hell we can do that on this side. well we can, and can only do mages and selune. i've seen the above paladin combinations take miplit and slaver.
that IS imbalanced, regardless of what side you play on.
make orcs anti's
we want to see warriors able to do their job other than stand in front and hope to hell that person told to fh on entry makes qc or the whole group gets wiped out.
what fun is that? it's not. the evils have a smaller pbase and dont have paladins. in order to do xp we need warrior, cleric, enchanter, invoker..maybe two vokers. 6 man group. on ship i frequently see paladin, shaman...or paladin cleric chanter, or paladin voker cleric. no way in hell we can do that on this side. well we can, and can only do mages and selune. i've seen the above paladin combinations take miplit and slaver.
that IS imbalanced, regardless of what side you play on.
make orcs anti's
-
Galok Icewolf
- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Jurdex, I know you better then that. You cannot possibly tell me that you think either;
A. Paladins are too powerful or,
B. Warriors are seriously lacking.
I put alot of work getting my warrior to 50th level. I am disappointed that I did, EVERY day I see a paladin or Anti.
My roomate plays a paladin, I see what he does. There is no way a warrior of the same level would EVER compare. He at 35th level solo's stuff that at 50th level still takes 1/3rd of my life.
A. Paladins are too powerful or,
B. Warriors are seriously lacking.
I put alot of work getting my warrior to 50th level. I am disappointed that I did, EVERY day I see a paladin or Anti.
My roomate plays a paladin, I see what he does. There is no way a warrior of the same level would EVER compare. He at 35th level solo's stuff that at 50th level still takes 1/3rd of my life.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>Paladins should tank better than any warrior mounted. They do.
If you want to 2h and tank (which makes no sense, warriors have never been damage dealers and never will be), play a mounted tank. No one is stopping you. If you want to be a meat shield that will *always* be needed and have tons of utilities, play a warrior.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh let me get this straight! By your own words, they 2h AND tank better than warriors. But somehow you're still calling warriors "meatshields" with tons of utilities. You said warriors tank WORSE, so why are they the meatshields? And what are those utilities? Would that be rescue, which by goodies' own admission is better for paladins than warriors? Oh wait, that would be shieldpunch right? It seems to me that charge STUNS the mob 80% of the time, and that shieldpunch DOESN'T. So warriors are left with what - tanking? no. damage? no. nice spells? no. rescue? no. Oh wait I see, we're here to bash! Yeah! A whole separate class dedicated to bashing!
<B>Paladins should tank better than any warrior mounted. They do.
If you want to 2h and tank (which makes no sense, warriors have never been damage dealers and never will be), play a mounted tank. No one is stopping you. If you want to be a meat shield that will *always* be needed and have tons of utilities, play a warrior.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh let me get this straight! By your own words, they 2h AND tank better than warriors. But somehow you're still calling warriors "meatshields" with tons of utilities. You said warriors tank WORSE, so why are they the meatshields? And what are those utilities? Would that be rescue, which by goodies' own admission is better for paladins than warriors? Oh wait, that would be shieldpunch right? It seems to me that charge STUNS the mob 80% of the time, and that shieldpunch DOESN'T. So warriors are left with what - tanking? no. damage? no. nice spells? no. rescue? no. Oh wait I see, we're here to bash! Yeah! A whole separate class dedicated to bashing!
Just FYI I don't want paladins downgraded, nor do I want a bone thrown to evils by letting them have antis. Evils are dead, RIP, they are non-existant on the mud anymore so enjoy not having to race anyone for zones.
I'm looking at damage, tanking, utilities, rescue and 'fun' and in every one of these it seems paladins are better. So tell me what warriors are to do.
I'm looking at damage, tanking, utilities, rescue and 'fun' and in every one of these it seems paladins are better. So tell me what warriors are to do.
I posted some suggestions for paladin's a while back, just before the defensive downgrade. One of the things I said then, and still think, is that charge is too much like shieldpunch. Paladin is a niche class, and something should be done to make sure that they don't overlap warrior functions as much as possible. IE make charge a tool primarily for use to unhorse mounted combatants and smack down ogre sized mobs or something of that nature.
That said, it seems to be the case that the change effected both flankblock and shieldblock equally. flankblock was way overpowered before, and now it's not. Personally I think it's just a slight bit on the wimpy side, but oh well. Shieldblock is and should be more usefull, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I see it work about as much as my flankblock. It's a whole heck of a lot easier to get a shield into the path of an attack than it is to get my huge warhorse out of the path of an attack.
Pally's are likely fine, with the above comments on charge in mind, but warriors aren't shieldblocking enough.
Just my two cents.
-Zen
~Zaryn
That said, it seems to be the case that the change effected both flankblock and shieldblock equally. flankblock was way overpowered before, and now it's not. Personally I think it's just a slight bit on the wimpy side, but oh well. Shieldblock is and should be more usefull, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I see it work about as much as my flankblock. It's a whole heck of a lot easier to get a shield into the path of an attack than it is to get my huge warhorse out of the path of an attack.
Pally's are likely fine, with the above comments on charge in mind, but warriors aren't shieldblocking enough.
Just my two cents.
-Zen
~Zaryn
BGR? Not exactly a big deal.
Solo to 50? No way. Also, I hope you realize I solo'd my cleric to 50 practically.
A. I don't think paladins are overpowered at all. They NEVER got groups before this wipe unless some leader felt sorry for them. Now, paladins actually are grouped and are useful. Guess what? So are warriors. Where's the problem?
B. Warriors tank fine. You guys are on here complaining endlessly about how you do no damage and can't 2h and yadda yadda.. well, I never did dmuch damage as a warrior on toril or soj2 and won't on soj3, and I rarely 2h'd unless necessary. ie: infra.
C. I don't see many goodie warriors here complaining. Why is that? Do warriors get beat down? Yeah.. Do paladins get beat down? Hell yeah..
1. They have less hps than any tank class
2. They get aged? Too bad. Deal.
3. Horses are a very very valuable commodity to any paladin. If I send Taernil east and he doesn't mount right away, he's gonna get whooped. Do horses die? Yes, quite a bit. They eat areas, they die without wb, fire prot, etc.
4. Another thing, paladins have to worry about losing paladin only items such as holy avenger. Jhorr, wanna do lava in crypts? No thanks. Why not? I'd rather not die in a freak way and lose my avenger.
5. Charge is less effective than sp. If SP works it causes lag even if it does not stun, charge from what I have seen pretty much only stuns and it is brief. (SPers work a LOT better than paladins charging in my zoning experience.)
6. Warriors are like multi-talented. Okay, they can tank, they can bash, they can rescue, they can shieldpunch.. they get outstanding hit points and every group needs them.
I am all for warriors getting something cool. I'm just sick and tired of seeing you guys bitch about mounted tanks. If you're so hard up for them, ask the admins to allow orcs to have anti-paladins. Otherwise I just see this as a typical case of the warrior wanting to do damage like a rogue and tank like a paladin and.. I could go on.
I want my cleric to do damage like a druid and heal like a shaman as well as be spanky against undead and.. but I'm realistic. :P
Dornax
Jurdex
Solo to 50? No way. Also, I hope you realize I solo'd my cleric to 50 practically.
A. I don't think paladins are overpowered at all. They NEVER got groups before this wipe unless some leader felt sorry for them. Now, paladins actually are grouped and are useful. Guess what? So are warriors. Where's the problem?
B. Warriors tank fine. You guys are on here complaining endlessly about how you do no damage and can't 2h and yadda yadda.. well, I never did dmuch damage as a warrior on toril or soj2 and won't on soj3, and I rarely 2h'd unless necessary. ie: infra.
C. I don't see many goodie warriors here complaining. Why is that? Do warriors get beat down? Yeah.. Do paladins get beat down? Hell yeah..
1. They have less hps than any tank class
2. They get aged? Too bad. Deal.
3. Horses are a very very valuable commodity to any paladin. If I send Taernil east and he doesn't mount right away, he's gonna get whooped. Do horses die? Yes, quite a bit. They eat areas, they die without wb, fire prot, etc.
4. Another thing, paladins have to worry about losing paladin only items such as holy avenger. Jhorr, wanna do lava in crypts? No thanks. Why not? I'd rather not die in a freak way and lose my avenger.
5. Charge is less effective than sp. If SP works it causes lag even if it does not stun, charge from what I have seen pretty much only stuns and it is brief. (SPers work a LOT better than paladins charging in my zoning experience.)
6. Warriors are like multi-talented. Okay, they can tank, they can bash, they can rescue, they can shieldpunch.. they get outstanding hit points and every group needs them.
I am all for warriors getting something cool. I'm just sick and tired of seeing you guys bitch about mounted tanks. If you're so hard up for them, ask the admins to allow orcs to have anti-paladins. Otherwise I just see this as a typical case of the warrior wanting to do damage like a rogue and tank like a paladin and.. I could go on.
I want my cleric to do damage like a druid and heal like a shaman as well as be spanky against undead and.. but I'm realistic. :P
Dornax
Jurdex
This thread is a whole lot of people arguing about how Paladins look on paper, and about three people talking about combat experience.
- You don't know exactly what PFE does.
- You don't know how much of a boost Paladins get for 2h wielding. Some of you did, during the alpha, but you don't know now.
- You don't know exactly how Paladin and Warrior exp tables compare. A "25% exp bonus" is irrelevant if a Paladin needs twice as much exp to level as a Warrior.
Here's the one-paragraph summary of 76 posts:
Paladins are niche tanks that excel only while mounted against small groups of melee mobs. Warriors are rounded tanks with more utility skills who are useful in all situations: area spells, unnatural aging, melee encounters, etc. Neither do enough damage in the overall scheme of things to get worked up about it. While Paladins get Ambran, other race warriors get racial items as well.. Rockcrusher, the various GN quest items *cough*, etc.
My advice to you is the same advice several of you've given me for five years in Ranger threads: If you don't like your class, play something else.
- Ragorn
Irony sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
You are stunned!
- You don't know exactly what PFE does.
- You don't know how much of a boost Paladins get for 2h wielding. Some of you did, during the alpha, but you don't know now.
- You don't know exactly how Paladin and Warrior exp tables compare. A "25% exp bonus" is irrelevant if a Paladin needs twice as much exp to level as a Warrior.
Here's the one-paragraph summary of 76 posts:
Paladins are niche tanks that excel only while mounted against small groups of melee mobs. Warriors are rounded tanks with more utility skills who are useful in all situations: area spells, unnatural aging, melee encounters, etc. Neither do enough damage in the overall scheme of things to get worked up about it. While Paladins get Ambran, other race warriors get racial items as well.. Rockcrusher, the various GN quest items *cough*, etc.
My advice to you is the same advice several of you've given me for five years in Ranger threads: If you don't like your class, play something else.
- Ragorn
Irony sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
You are stunned!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
A. I don't think paladins are overpowered at all. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dorno is correct. I don't think paladins are over powered. At first glance, it might look that way but its not. It's true paladins are better tanks then warriors, and while I wish that wasn't true, you have to accept that. We found that it works great to have the paladin as the main tank.
Now, early in this wipe (a few months ago), I was the only high lvl warrior who was constantly on during the summer for us. We had like 3 paladins like Jhorr , Hyldryn, and someone else and we experienced some difficulties with only 1 shieldpuncher. If you have no warriors, its very limiting.
Just based on this 1 fact, I think warriors are more powerful then paladins. They will always have a roll. heheh I thought about going paladint his wipe, I'm glad I didn't. Paladins have some very strong advantages, but they are balanced because they have some big flaws as others have mentioned here.
Trogar
A. I don't think paladins are overpowered at all. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dorno is correct. I don't think paladins are over powered. At first glance, it might look that way but its not. It's true paladins are better tanks then warriors, and while I wish that wasn't true, you have to accept that. We found that it works great to have the paladin as the main tank.
Now, early in this wipe (a few months ago), I was the only high lvl warrior who was constantly on during the summer for us. We had like 3 paladins like Jhorr , Hyldryn, and someone else and we experienced some difficulties with only 1 shieldpuncher. If you have no warriors, its very limiting.
Just based on this 1 fact, I think warriors are more powerful then paladins. They will always have a roll. heheh I thought about going paladint his wipe, I'm glad I didn't. Paladins have some very strong advantages, but they are balanced because they have some big flaws as others have mentioned here.
Trogar
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
A. I don't think paladins are overpowered at all. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dorno is correct. I don't think paladins are over powered. At first glance, it might look that way but its not. It's true paladins are better tanks then warriors, and while I wish that wasn't true, you have to accept that. We found that it works great to have the paladin as the main tank.
Now, early in this wipe (a few months ago), I was the only high lvl warrior who was constantly on during the summer for us. We had like 3 paladins like Jhorr , Hyldryn, and someone else and we experienced some difficulties with only 1 shieldpuncher. If you have no warriors, its very limiting.
Just based on this 1 fact, I think warriors are more powerful then paladins. They will always have a roll. heheh I thought about going paladint his wipe, I'm glad I didn't. Paladins have some very strong advantages, but they are balanced because they have some big flaws as others have mentioned here.
Trogar
A. I don't think paladins are overpowered at all. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dorno is correct. I don't think paladins are over powered. At first glance, it might look that way but its not. It's true paladins are better tanks then warriors, and while I wish that wasn't true, you have to accept that. We found that it works great to have the paladin as the main tank.
Now, early in this wipe (a few months ago), I was the only high lvl warrior who was constantly on during the summer for us. We had like 3 paladins like Jhorr , Hyldryn, and someone else and we experienced some difficulties with only 1 shieldpuncher. If you have no warriors, its very limiting.
Just based on this 1 fact, I think warriors are more powerful then paladins. They will always have a roll. heheh I thought about going paladint his wipe, I'm glad I didn't. Paladins have some very strong advantages, but they are balanced because they have some big flaws as others have mentioned here.
Trogar
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kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
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no rescue while mounted, take away charge. right now they got it all.
They tank, they can remount and rescue and continue tanking. They can do all of this while wielding 2h weapons with an insanely low hitroll. Thats more dam and better tanking without even considering spells. Warriors exist for shieldpunch? If Paladins arent broken or way out of balance, I hate to think what rangers are going to look like when they are 'fixed'
You can't say its not wrong when a paladin can tank a 50+ mob and not get hit once during a fight when a warrior gets his ass chewed in max 8 rounds and needs dozen stones and full heals to finish the fight.
good point on the exp tables and the 25% bonus. I stand corrected. I didnt think it would fix anything, but I think it still stands that paladins dont have any restrictions left to justify the exp bonus.
They tank, they can remount and rescue and continue tanking. They can do all of this while wielding 2h weapons with an insanely low hitroll. Thats more dam and better tanking without even considering spells. Warriors exist for shieldpunch? If Paladins arent broken or way out of balance, I hate to think what rangers are going to look like when they are 'fixed'
You can't say its not wrong when a paladin can tank a 50+ mob and not get hit once during a fight when a warrior gets his ass chewed in max 8 rounds and needs dozen stones and full heals to finish the fight.
good point on the exp tables and the 25% bonus. I stand corrected. I didnt think it would fix anything, but I think it still stands that paladins dont have any restrictions left to justify the exp bonus.
So someone answer me this: Why can paladins mount up and tank indoors, in caves, and under roofs? Make mounted combat only work where there is no ceiling. Paladins keep their neato skill, but can't use it half the time. Some fights, paladins are the best tanks, others warriors are the best tanks.
As for upgrading warrior tanking, well, I havent seen any logs that demonstrate worse warrior tanking than on Toril.
Mp
As for upgrading warrior tanking, well, I havent seen any logs that demonstrate worse warrior tanking than on Toril.
Mp
I realized during alpha that paladins would be powerful this wipe. The log that Cherzra posted, however, is an abberation and is not typical in my experience. Also, tweaking a class based on how it performs while doing exp is unwise. Changes to classes should be made after evaluating performance in zones. That said, there are times when a warrior tank is preferable to a paladin. Dragons, for example, can roar the horse and create problems. Padashaw and many other bigger fights are ugly if the paladin can't mount immediately upon entering.
The problem with warriors this wipe is not paladins. Warriors should suggest upgrades to their class by highlighting their shortcomings, not another class' strengths. One area that needs to be addressed and upgraded for warriors is shields. To be a warrior this wipe requires wearing a shield. Since that piece of equipment dominates the playability of warriors, I think shields should be upgraded and given procs, for example. As it is now, the best shield known so far is unusable by dwarves, an oversight long in need of correction. Also, during alpha I noticed that while supine, some skills never occur. I think it was dodge and something else. Giving these skills back to warriors while supine would be an appropriate edge. On another mud, there was a shieldless bash skill. Maybe we could have that for warriors too. Triple attack and berserk might be appropriate now too. Who knows. Perhaps, adding a quest like lich for necros that allows warriors to specialize and gain new skills would be cool.
Whining about how effective the paladin revamping has been won't do anything to address how to make warriors better. The idea that 'warriors should always be the best tanks' is bogus. They've NEVER been the best tanks. Previously, we wanted pets to do it, now we want paladins. Big whoop. At least we are PC-tanking now and not using pets (*cough* conjurer upgrades needed now!). Dornax and Trogar are also correct in that, while paladins are nice for zones, they aren't essential. The same can't be said of warriors. Warriors are critical for zoning, paladins aren't.
This wipe, classes are being used differently and I think the admins have done an excellent job so far in implementing them, although conjurer/elementalist upgrades are long overdue. Paladins are not radically altering the capability of groups. Besides, evils have done more on the mud so far without paladins than goodies have been able to do yet. Now you don't see us whining about squids do you?
Jhorr
The problem with warriors this wipe is not paladins. Warriors should suggest upgrades to their class by highlighting their shortcomings, not another class' strengths. One area that needs to be addressed and upgraded for warriors is shields. To be a warrior this wipe requires wearing a shield. Since that piece of equipment dominates the playability of warriors, I think shields should be upgraded and given procs, for example. As it is now, the best shield known so far is unusable by dwarves, an oversight long in need of correction. Also, during alpha I noticed that while supine, some skills never occur. I think it was dodge and something else. Giving these skills back to warriors while supine would be an appropriate edge. On another mud, there was a shieldless bash skill. Maybe we could have that for warriors too. Triple attack and berserk might be appropriate now too. Who knows. Perhaps, adding a quest like lich for necros that allows warriors to specialize and gain new skills would be cool.
Whining about how effective the paladin revamping has been won't do anything to address how to make warriors better. The idea that 'warriors should always be the best tanks' is bogus. They've NEVER been the best tanks. Previously, we wanted pets to do it, now we want paladins. Big whoop. At least we are PC-tanking now and not using pets (*cough* conjurer upgrades needed now!). Dornax and Trogar are also correct in that, while paladins are nice for zones, they aren't essential. The same can't be said of warriors. Warriors are critical for zoning, paladins aren't.
This wipe, classes are being used differently and I think the admins have done an excellent job so far in implementing them, although conjurer/elementalist upgrades are long overdue. Paladins are not radically altering the capability of groups. Besides, evils have done more on the mud so far without paladins than goodies have been able to do yet. Now you don't see us whining about squids do you?
Jhorr
Would that be because you in addition to paladins you also get rangers, druids, necros/liches and antipaladins?
And the recurring thing I see in every post is that paladins are supposed to tank better than warriors. Fine, but everyone conveniently forgets to mention that they ALSO do at OVER 2x as much damage, rescue better AND have layhands and other spells.
And the recurring thing I see in every post is that paladins are supposed to tank better than warriors. Fine, but everyone conveniently forgets to mention that they ALSO do at OVER 2x as much damage, rescue better AND have layhands and other spells.
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Galok Icewolf
- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>no rescue while mounted, take away charge. right now they got it all.
They tank, they can remount and rescue and continue tanking. They can do all of this while wielding 2h weapons with an insanely low hitroll. Thats more dam and better tanking without even considering spells. Warriors exist for shieldpunch? If Paladins arent broken or way out of balance, I hate to think what rangers are going to look like when they are 'fixed'
You can't say its not wrong when a paladin can tank a 50+ mob and not get hit once during a fight when a warrior gets his ass chewed in max 8 rounds and needs dozen stones and full heals to finish the fight.
good point on the exp tables and the 25% bonus. I stand corrected. I didnt think it would fix anything, but I think it still stands that paladins dont have any restrictions left to justify the exp bonus.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1. To remount, the horse must be alive, and the paladin can't be fighting.
2. Paladins either don't get xp or LOSE xp neutral and good mobs. I've watched pallys lose levels as they fought before, also seen them flee just before the kill. That sucks. I personally think that is a restriction that justifies a bonus.
I don't claim to know the best balance for the game's classes, just pointing some things out.
Vadian
<B>no rescue while mounted, take away charge. right now they got it all.
They tank, they can remount and rescue and continue tanking. They can do all of this while wielding 2h weapons with an insanely low hitroll. Thats more dam and better tanking without even considering spells. Warriors exist for shieldpunch? If Paladins arent broken or way out of balance, I hate to think what rangers are going to look like when they are 'fixed'
You can't say its not wrong when a paladin can tank a 50+ mob and not get hit once during a fight when a warrior gets his ass chewed in max 8 rounds and needs dozen stones and full heals to finish the fight.
good point on the exp tables and the 25% bonus. I stand corrected. I didnt think it would fix anything, but I think it still stands that paladins dont have any restrictions left to justify the exp bonus.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1. To remount, the horse must be alive, and the paladin can't be fighting.
2. Paladins either don't get xp or LOSE xp neutral and good mobs. I've watched pallys lose levels as they fought before, also seen them flee just before the kill. That sucks. I personally think that is a restriction that justifies a bonus.
I don't claim to know the best balance for the game's classes, just pointing some things out.
Vadian
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">And the recurring thing I see in every post is that paladins are supposed to tank better than warriors. Fine, but everyone conveniently forgets to mention that they ALSO do at OVER 2x as much damage, rescue better AND have layhands and other spells. </font>
And everyone that's complaining conveniently forgets that paladins MUST be human (and thus never get any innate racial benefits), CANNOT bash while tanking, and LOSE xp when fighting non-evil mobs (including damage xp).
But no matter what you say, even with all of the benefits that you're jealous of, paladins still are not required for zoning while warriors are. So where exactly is the problem?
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Galok Icewolf
- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
I have played an anti, and a troll amongst others.
My anti yes gets harder unmounted, but
can kill mobs way bigger than him ie R u mad mobs easy
my troll after the "fixes to defense" used to solo in hp, now he has to bring a group to kill match/lucky punk mobs *stare*
I dont care if antis are orcs or if OC goes back in or if palys are supposed to be better tanks and damage dealers than wars, but warriors are seriously lacking, sp = not as good as charge no matter tested both. truth they cant bash while tanking ok... wars got ya there. but thats it.
wars need more skills its nuts a troll cant solo xp w/good eq but a lower lvl anti can solo the same mob no prob.....I dont know the answer just the questions pinky
My anti yes gets harder unmounted, but
can kill mobs way bigger than him ie R u mad mobs easy
my troll after the "fixes to defense" used to solo in hp, now he has to bring a group to kill match/lucky punk mobs *stare*
I dont care if antis are orcs or if OC goes back in or if palys are supposed to be better tanks and damage dealers than wars, but warriors are seriously lacking, sp = not as good as charge no matter tested both. truth they cant bash while tanking ok... wars got ya there. but thats it.
wars need more skills its nuts a troll cant solo xp w/good eq but a lower lvl anti can solo the same mob no prob.....I dont know the answer just the questions pinky
By the way, in Cherzra's log of lvl48paladintank, if you look closely, it's not that the paladin is really tanking very well (i.e., evading hits with superior skills). It's because the mobs are MISSING over half the time. Now why would the mobs be missing so much? I couldn't help notice that the tank was blurred. Hrmm, interesting. If you want to evaluate a class and then suggest it be downgraded, at least evaluate it fairly in a systematic and intelligent way. Don't let your disillusionment with the warrior class or the recent exodus of evils cloud your judgement 
Also, this bull about paladins needing to be downgraded because they get 'lots of additional bonuses' is rediculous. These 'extra bonuses' haven't changed in at least 6 years of Sojourn and don't radically unbalance game play.
However, I would suggest that the penalty for killing non-evil, non-aggro mobs be revisited. Currently, it really isn't a deterrent at high levels. Maybe this is because one mob here or there contributes less overall to exp at later stages.
Jhorr
Also, this bull about paladins needing to be downgraded because they get 'lots of additional bonuses' is rediculous. These 'extra bonuses' haven't changed in at least 6 years of Sojourn and don't radically unbalance game play.
However, I would suggest that the penalty for killing non-evil, non-aggro mobs be revisited. Currently, it really isn't a deterrent at high levels. Maybe this is because one mob here or there contributes less overall to exp at later stages.
Jhorr
wow goodie enchanters blur during xp?
i thought teyaha was the only one who actually cast the spell outside of a zone.
all b/s aside, as teyaha i stone/blur/haste my tanks regardless of the xp. i dont believe in invokerchanter. not even a level 50 troll, spelled up like that, would tank those two mobs that well. it didnt happen.
i thought teyaha was the only one who actually cast the spell outside of a zone.
all b/s aside, as teyaha i stone/blur/haste my tanks regardless of the xp. i dont believe in invokerchanter. not even a level 50 troll, spelled up like that, would tank those two mobs that well. it didnt happen.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jhorr:
<B>Also, this bull about paladins needing to be downgraded because they get 'lots of additional bonuses' is rediculous. These 'extra bonuses' haven't changed in at least 6 years of Sojourn and don't radically unbalance game play.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's not the bonuses, it's the bonuses combined with tanking betterthan warriors.
Nobody said that their awesome hitroll, 2hnders, spells and layhands were overpowered back when they tanked worse than warriors because it balanced out, but now they get all that AND they tank better. Who said you can't have your cake and eat it too?
[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 10-24-2001).]
<B>Also, this bull about paladins needing to be downgraded because they get 'lots of additional bonuses' is rediculous. These 'extra bonuses' haven't changed in at least 6 years of Sojourn and don't radically unbalance game play.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's not the bonuses, it's the bonuses combined with tanking betterthan warriors.
Nobody said that their awesome hitroll, 2hnders, spells and layhands were overpowered back when they tanked worse than warriors because it balanced out, but now they get all that AND they tank better. Who said you can't have your cake and eat it too?
[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 10-24-2001).]
Hmm.. I really don't think paladins should be downgraded in anyway, then they would be completely useless..
I dont think warriors are all that sucky.. at level 23 i started tanking dock masters, 31 i tanked ship exp once (with 2 hitters, 1 enchanter 1 cleric).. for exping i seem to be doing fine as a barby warrior... and i did practically solo to level 25.. now i can't solo, only because i need someone to heal me.. if i had troll regen rate im sure id have no problem still soloing at level 32.. (and i have played evils and seen what troll regen rate is.. it makes soloing much more feasible in that you don't have to wait 15 mins in between kills for regen) keep in mind.. even killing easy kills still gives you exp, so if a troll can do that non stop he should be able to solo no prob to 40-45 atleast.. unfornatly, as a warrior even an easy kill whacks away quite a few of my hps.. but thats good, because this mud should be built to solo.. we should need to have groups (its just a pain when you can't seem to put one together and you sit around bored.. or go explorin' and die :P )
I dont think warriors are all that sucky.. at level 23 i started tanking dock masters, 31 i tanked ship exp once (with 2 hitters, 1 enchanter 1 cleric).. for exping i seem to be doing fine as a barby warrior... and i did practically solo to level 25.. now i can't solo, only because i need someone to heal me.. if i had troll regen rate im sure id have no problem still soloing at level 32.. (and i have played evils and seen what troll regen rate is.. it makes soloing much more feasible in that you don't have to wait 15 mins in between kills for regen) keep in mind.. even killing easy kills still gives you exp, so if a troll can do that non stop he should be able to solo no prob to 40-45 atleast.. unfornatly, as a warrior even an easy kill whacks away quite a few of my hps.. but thats good, because this mud should be built to solo.. we should need to have groups (its just a pain when you can't seem to put one together and you sit around bored.. or go explorin' and die :P )
Thing is, Cherzra, that there have been some fights where I needed to be rescued by a warrior because I was getting my ass whooped and then the warrior tanked the fight fine. Also, don't forget that most tough fights I can't enter mounted and half the time the mob hits me before I can mount. In those cases I tank much WORSE than a warrior. Tanking for exp is one thing, tanking in zones is totally different where you are getting roared, my horse gets roared, one-way fights can't do mounted, horse dies to dragon breath, etc. Look at the big picture, not just tanking the stupid pirate ship.
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kiryan
- Sojourner
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you can solo as a troll warrior up to around 35 with that awesome regen. After that your exp is crawling if you try and solo. If you really were a glutton you could continue to solo i suppose, but really you need to find a group and do exp. Its great exp solo up to 35, thats it.
Jhorr, you used to play warriors for 2 or 3 wipes at least, now a paladin this boot. I dont wonder i just assume because you played alpha and knew they were going to own. This is a cheap shot, i wonder if its close to the truth.
The complaint I have is that paladins tank better and do more dam. Thats wrong without even considering all the utilities. Paladins were a decent class in previous wipes, they got fukd by the OC shit and no group with evil and deserved all the extras and maybe a bit more. Now they dotn have that restriction and they tank and do better dam. I'm often blurred and stoned while exping on ship. Captain and slaver do a pretty good job on me, I would die in less than 10 rounds guaranteed.
Why can you tank mounted indoors? Took me a bit to figure out why you had to enter the room then mount, obviously because your getting the "Youd bash your brains in" message. Maybe this should be disallowed/downgraded/fixed. Maybe you should consider room size before allowing mounting and or prohibit it indoors?!?. That might be a reasonable restriction to help balance the insane tanking ability.
Evils have been awful posty lately, prolly because we got nothin better to do cept post while were idling at fountain waiting for any cleric/enchanter to log on. Gets us thinking, thinking is bad. Good observation, we should probably think about it and remember ti when the good times come back.
Jhorr, you used to play warriors for 2 or 3 wipes at least, now a paladin this boot. I dont wonder i just assume because you played alpha and knew they were going to own. This is a cheap shot, i wonder if its close to the truth.
The complaint I have is that paladins tank better and do more dam. Thats wrong without even considering all the utilities. Paladins were a decent class in previous wipes, they got fukd by the OC shit and no group with evil and deserved all the extras and maybe a bit more. Now they dotn have that restriction and they tank and do better dam. I'm often blurred and stoned while exping on ship. Captain and slaver do a pretty good job on me, I would die in less than 10 rounds guaranteed.
Why can you tank mounted indoors? Took me a bit to figure out why you had to enter the room then mount, obviously because your getting the "Youd bash your brains in" message. Maybe this should be disallowed/downgraded/fixed. Maybe you should consider room size before allowing mounting and or prohibit it indoors?!?. That might be a reasonable restriction to help balance the insane tanking ability.
Evils have been awful posty lately, prolly because we got nothin better to do cept post while were idling at fountain waiting for any cleric/enchanter to log on. Gets us thinking, thinking is bad. Good observation, we should probably think about it and remember ti when the good times come back.
After reading number of the replys, nothing really came out of this. Paladins shouldn't be downgrade and from what I understand they probably won't be. But that doesn't mean warriors shouldn't get upgraded.
Paladins SHOULD TANK BETTER WHEN MOUNTED; that is just common sense, specially in REAL Life combat situations. But as Jhorr says, half the times it hard for paladins to mount up, plus you get silly problems when they are in 1 way rooms, and there mounts die easily to area spells.
When doing exp yeah paladins are nice, but when zoning I rather have a warrior enter the room tanking, then have paladin rescue the warrior when mounted. Because warriors have to focus on bashing or shield punching a mob, while the paladins focuses on rescuing.
As to the upgrade to warriors, I think the best idea is defensive or offensive specalization, as talk about in other threads where skills gets up by an extra 10 - 20%.
Paladins SHOULD TANK BETTER WHEN MOUNTED; that is just common sense, specially in REAL Life combat situations. But as Jhorr says, half the times it hard for paladins to mount up, plus you get silly problems when they are in 1 way rooms, and there mounts die easily to area spells.
When doing exp yeah paladins are nice, but when zoning I rather have a warrior enter the room tanking, then have paladin rescue the warrior when mounted. Because warriors have to focus on bashing or shield punching a mob, while the paladins focuses on rescuing.
As to the upgrade to warriors, I think the best idea is defensive or offensive specalization, as talk about in other threads where skills gets up by an extra 10 - 20%.
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