Justice...I think not.

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
Tranox
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Justice...I think not.

Postby Tranox » Mon Nov 19, 2001 7:03 pm

The justice system as it is currently implemented is unfair and detracts from the enjoyment of the mud. I am an evil little bastard and that tends to get me in trouble with the law quite frequently. I have been trying to be good while i am in town lately but sometimes you can't help but kill some drunk that looks at you funny. Sometime the guards get involved and that is fine by me, (sojourn is a player VS environment game) their skills are weak and it doesn't take much to outsmart them. Recently though there has been a groundswell among others of the realm to capture criminals. (player vs player bounty hunters under the guise of "roleplaying" hunt people down and turn them in.) Now the reward on my head is very meager, not really worth the effort if you are trying to make a decent living. So the only reason i can think of to do this is to screw other players. I wouldn't really mind having someone try to tie me up if i could slip my bonds and stab them in the back like any good thief would.


Ok basically what i am trying to say is the justice system is the only PvP piece of code in the game. It favors people who roleplay law abiding citizens. Now I have heard people using roleplay as an excuse for turning people in, now i am using it as an excuse for being wanted...so i don't wanna hear any don't do the crime if you can't do the time crap.

remove the player vs player component to justice...ie let the guards do their job....
or ad a pk flag to people who tie others up.

Tranox, evil little bastard.
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Nov 19, 2001 8:32 pm

Or those people who are bounty hunting really are roleplaying.

Yayaril
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Postby Tranox » Mon Nov 19, 2001 8:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
<B>Or those people who are bounty hunting really are roleplaying.

Yayaril</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yaya,

You are roleplaying racism and are consistant about it so that is more acceptable to me. Of course you could do this just as effectivly by the creative use of says and emotes (I know you are creative) rather than something that negatively effects other peoples enjoyment of the game ie death and waste of time. It is these factors that upset me.

Tranox
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Postby Zrax » Mon Nov 19, 2001 9:04 pm

I have to agree with this thread, the ability for players to tie up other players seems very out of place and a bit far fetched. I would think that the person they are trying to tie up would have to be subdued before this could happen, or at least the person being teid up should be able to fight back. If its so easy to tie things up we should be able to lasso monsters out in the realm, I dunno the whole thing just doesnt seem to fit at all to me.

I love people who use roleplaying as a guise to justify them being an asshole. Just admit you are one, I do Image
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Postby Gindipple » Mon Nov 19, 2001 9:22 pm

I'd like to see the code level restricted.
For a lvl 50 rogue to be running around harassing a level 25 rogue this is silly.
Sure it's role play, so could grabbing swords that someone flings be too.
If it ruins the gameplay, which for many I've seen justice do, then what good is it?
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Nov 19, 2001 9:53 pm

There are other forms of pvp besides this code. For instance, there's the arena. This is the obvious form of pvp, whereupon two or more players directly attack each other.

Then, there's equipment. Players compete to get the gear they want. Players race each other to that rare, or even camp on it to get it first. People fight over who gets Loki in Invasion or people argue over who gets Korahl in Evermeet.

Then even lower on the rung is just competition over experience. Hey, that was MY dock master!

Then people compete over buying and selling stuff. They try to get the lowest price or sell at the highest without being totally left out of the market.

Pvp exists at all levels. It just depends on how direct it is. I can see where people would be opposed to all out conflict whereupon people can kill each other with no rhyme or reason. This can lead to utterly nonsensical fighting, where paladins are beating up rangers and so forth. As is, the justice system is totally avoidable. You are totally in control of attacking that street cleaner or bashing in the head of that woman walking down the street. You can easily avoid the whole justice system if you please. You can avoid all pvp aspects of the Mud if you desire. It's all up to the individual player.


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Postby Zrax » Mon Nov 19, 2001 9:56 pm

Those are all bad examples. All of those are competitions for gain, except for the arena which is competiton for nothing. Justice tying up is competition with a lasting loss on one player. There is also the fact that it is absolutly silly and buggy.
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Postby Jurdex » Mon Nov 19, 2001 10:00 pm

Justice adds a bit of realism, does it not? Always seemed kind of crazy we could kill Waterdeep's citizens and employees and never suffer for it. And, yes, I've been caught by justice since it came in. :P

Also, justice basically only comes in to play when you are "gaining" experience in a hometown.. does it not?

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Postby Zrax » Mon Nov 19, 2001 10:03 pm

To clarify. I do agree with Justice, and I think the orinator of the thread did as well. It was the player involvement in Justice that was brought to question.
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Postby Zen » Mon Nov 19, 2001 10:52 pm

Player involvement in the justice code seems to have devolved into deliberate and malicious sabotage of other players. The fact is that justice, as a concept, adds a lot to the game.

However, justice as it exists now is the only way in wich a player on this mud can negatively impact another player without their involvement. Yes, you can avoid killing mobs in town. Yes you compete with other players every time you bid, race to invasion or anything else. BUT, you cannot race anyone to invasion if they're going to the vault.

What people are saying is that it's RP to bring folks to justice, but what if those folks don't want to rp? It seems to me that those folks who cry RP! the loudest are those who are using it to deter other players. That kind of juvenille antics belong on a pkill mud, then you can take your level 50 warrior and crush newbies to your hearts content.

If you are really and truly role playing your character, you'd only capture those who had their rp flag up and running. It is not the theme of this mud to require rp from anyone, nor is it healthy for the players to be able to force their racist, bastardized roleplaying onto others. I am not making any specific references, but I do see this happening too often.

If player involvement is going to be a part of the justice code, then we should retrict it to characters with the (RP) flag active, characters who role play being evil and killing the citizens of the towns should be able to be brought to justice. Player interaction is what RP is all about. However, the newbie who kills harmless mobs because he doesn't know any better should be tracked down by the mobs. The mobs won't make him quit forever and find a new home to play in.

Anyone can RP being an ass, most of us can even do that IRL. But try RP'ng a hero, that's hard. Especially when you have to tog wimpy 0 and take the death because someone else isn't out of harms way. Or when you have to go to the attic because there's a newbie up there who died, and you're a hero damnit. That's hard.

-Zen
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Nov 19, 2001 11:06 pm

Zennie's my hero.
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Postby Tranox » Mon Nov 19, 2001 11:26 pm

It's kind of a moot point for me now.

------------------------------------

< 270h/270H 96v/96V >


Toarn says 'line up a well and ress for me'

< 270h/270H 96v/96V >
<> unbind

The jailer enters the room and snarls 'Get up, Toarn. It's time.'
The jailer drags Toarn out of the cell.
The jailer enters the room and snarls 'Get up, Tranox. It's time.'
The jailer roughly drags you out of the cell and leads you to the executioner.
The Hill of Fools
This small rise overlooks the Waterdeep cemetery to the east, and is
home to the Chamber of Judgement. This open gray marble structure
consists of a platform and gallows, and a podium behind which stands a
massive, cloaked figure. Waterdeep guardsmen dressed in matte black armor
encircle the area, and a grave digger sits waiting atop a closed, but
surely empty, coffin.
Room size: Mid-sized (L:25 ft W:25 ft H:10 ft)
Exits: - East
Toarn Kegraider (RP) (Barbarian) stands, inches above the surface here.
Mithil (Half-Elf) stands in mid-air here.
Nitupopple (Gnome) stands here.
Dartan WildStallion -=Oracle=- Darkstorm Rising (Barbarian) stands here.
Yayaril -Babbling Knife- Shadows of Imphras (RP) (Human) stands in mid-air here.

A massive, hooded judge stands ready to determine your fate here.

< 270h/270H 96v/96V >
<> You use your skill to slip your bonds.

< 270h/270H 96v/96V >
<>
A hooded judge and the jailer tie Toarn to a chopping block.
A hooded judge and the jailer tie you to a chopping block.

< 270h/270H 96v/96V >
<> smile
You smile happily.

< 270h/270H 96v/96V >
<>
Toarn spits in a hooded judge's face.

< 270h/270H 96v/96V >
<>
A hooded judge says 'Toarn, for heinous crimes against this town, you shall be b
eheaded, to serve as an example and warning to all that we will not tolerate dee
ds such as yours.'
A hooded judge says 'Do you have any last words?'
A hooded judge says 'Tranox, for heinous crimes against this town, you shall be
beheaded, to serve as an example and warning to all that we will not tolerate de
eds such as yours.'
A hooded judge says 'Do you have any last words?'

< 270h/270H 96v/96V >
<>
Toarn spits in a hooded judge's face.

< 270h/270H 96v/96V >
<>
Toarn spits in a hooded judge's face.

< 270h/270H 96v/96V >
<>
The clock tower chimes the hour of 9am.

< 270h/270H 96v/96V >
<>
Toarn spits in a hooded judge's face.

< 270h/270H 96v/96V >
<> A hooded judge says 'So be it.'
A hooded judge picks up a large, sharp axe, approaches Toarn, and swings. The a
xe chops clean through Toarn's neck, sending his head rolling along the floor!
Your blood freezes as you hear the rattling death cry of Toarn.
A hooded judge shouts 'Toarn has been executed!'

A hooded judge says 'So be it.'
A hooded judge picks up a large, sharp axe, approaches you, and swings. The las
t thing you feel is a sharp crack at the back of your neck.
Your soul leaves your body in the cold sleep of death...

*** Welcome to Sojourn ***

0) Leave Faerun for a Time.
1) Enter the realms of Sojourn.
2) See who is currently playing.
3) Read the background story.
4) Change your password.
5) Enter your character description.
6) Delete this character.

Make your choice:
Wrong option.

Guess I won't run afoul of the law anymore.
It was fun for me from a roleplay perspective to be wanted but, it isn't worth the constant harrassment from other players. so i'll take the death and move on...at least i can feel safe when I afk to pee now Image

Tranox, scared straight.
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Postby Nilan » Mon Nov 19, 2001 11:33 pm

I like the justice system. though i do admit getting a fair trial from a judge is few and far between...well actually let me rephrase that....its impossible as far as Nilan is concerned.

But no one can catch me anyway Image so yup i dont fear it.

Nilan
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Postby Keran » Tue Nov 20, 2001 12:05 am

I got a few spits in there. That's called barbarian pride baby. Only in death can you find eternal peace. WD is the scourge of all Faerun, and I shall have my day in righting the wrongs and injustices it has wrought on my people.

When WD falls, my people will rejoice and the mighty barbarian tribes will flourish.

Praise Uthgar, Father of the Barbarian Tribes.

Toarn Kegraider - Vengeful Hellion
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Postby Nokie » Tue Nov 20, 2001 3:35 am

You know what else would add realism? Allowing me to drive my dagger in the throat of the coward who decided that he has nothing better to do than disrupt me adventuring with my friends.

Oh wait... I can't do anything back at the bountry hunter. It's not so realistic after all, is it?

I'm all for realism! So why not allow the person getting tied up a chance to fight back?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
Justice adds a bit of realism, does it not? Always seemed kind of crazy we could kill Waterdeep's citizens and employees and never suffer for it.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


------------------
Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
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Postby jalahon » Tue Nov 20, 2001 3:50 am

i totally agree nokie. Realism would entail a little bit more of a challenge when trying to rope up anyone other than a rogue...knocking someone unconscious would come in handy. This skill makes the rogue class the 'literal' enforcers of justice...hmmm
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Postby Jurdex » Tue Nov 20, 2001 5:43 am

Nokie, I am not saying the system is foolproof or perfect. Heck, it could probably use some tweaking! I am all for that. I am simply saying that I think Justice adds a cool element to the game.

Why not offer some positive suggestions on ways it can be fixed?

Dornax
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Postby Gindipple » Tue Nov 20, 2001 6:06 am

The north dock master is the root of the trouble here.
Can the justice in that room be eliminated?
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Postby Zrax » Tue Nov 20, 2001 6:18 am

Removing player involvement in justice would be a positive solution to fix the problems it causes. Other than this the only thing that makes sense is the other person being able to fight back against the person trying to tie them up. To think that this is even allowed on a non pk mud strikes me as absurd. The comical scene of a player not being able to defend themselves against an assailant who repeaditly tries to lasso them and drag them through town is laughable.

I would also recommend having pre level 8 (or so) characters tottaly immune to justice. Have it pop up a warning that had they been over level 8 they would be wanted for a crime in the town but at least give them those few levels to figure out what is going on. For true newbies this can be very confusing.
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Postby Corth » Tue Nov 20, 2001 7:08 am

Ticks me off.. I Like to RP, but don't tie me up unless my roleplay flag is on mkay?

Corth
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Postby Gindipple » Tue Nov 20, 2001 7:45 am

Thanks to Yayaril I will be retiring now.
When justice interferes with my having fun it's time to walk away.

Gindipple/Thalmak/Guurk/Raspor/Daros
Will keep in touch.
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Postby Corth » Tue Nov 20, 2001 7:53 am

Yayaril cut the shit out already.. if you want to turn people in find someone who doesn't mind. You are enforcing your conception of RP on other people who might not enjoy the mud in that way. Its just rude.

I can think of an analagous situation. For instance, just because someone *can* disintegrate you in the arena and make your eq poof, doesn't mean its the right thing to do. When you get people executed who don't want to be put in that position its only a half step above disintegrating them in the arena.


Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 11-20-2001).]
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Postby Nilan » Tue Nov 20, 2001 7:58 am

Toarn,

Do you truely wish Waterdeep to fall? If so perhaps we should meet and discuss the fate of that pathetic town and those that would serve its so called "justice". If you truely honor your words mighty Barbarian of the Northlands, then meet me, come alone and we can dicuss bringing the City of Splendors to its knees. My blood burns with desire for revenge.

It seems we have a err ... common enemy and similar goal *bow*

If you hold true to your words, Barbarian, our paths shall cross

Nilan
-ShadowStalker- traitor to Waterdeep
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Postby Yayaril » Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:20 am

You're right Corth. I thought about it a lot and this message is what I'll be sending to any of my potential targets in the future:

Yayaril tells you 'Hello, my name is Yayaril Varixalyn. You may or may not know that you caused a crime! This is indeed a bad thing, but you probably don't care since you didn't bother to turn yourself in or pay your fine. No problem. If it isn't too much inconvenience, do you mind if I try to hunt you down and turn you in to the judge? I mean, it doesn't matter that you caused an inconvenience to that poor street cleaner who was picking up the empty beer bottle when you decided to run up to him and slice his head off. So, if you will, please consent to me tying you up and dragging in? Or you can just go on your way murdering derelicts of the street. Thank you for your time.
Yayaril- the friendly neighborhood bounty hunter.

Yea! With that, I will never go wrong! All the people I turn in will WANT to be turned in, thus won't have any reason to run away or be a challenge to catch. We will all hold hands and sing merrily together! At that point, just remove the whole justice thing altogether.

Yayaril
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Postby Corth » Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:51 am

Yayaril:

I'm not in favor of getting rid of justice. It doesn't make sense that in a civilized city like wd, people could run around killing people at will without any repurcusions.

However, irl, if I had just murdered someone and I'm an evil bastard that doesn't want to get caught, I might just murder the person that is trying to catch me. On this mud, there is no option except in the arena... and there is no penalty for dying in the arena.

So basically, you found a way to mess with other players under the auspicies of rp, without fearing any repurcusions yourself. Its cowardly and rude. Yeah its within the rules, but its just not right. Other people aren't given the opportunity to RP an evil bastard who would smoosh the goodie-two-shoes who is trying to turn them in to the authorities.

I suggest that people start casting disentegrate on yayaril in the arena whenever they have the opportunity.

Corth
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Postby Tasan » Tue Nov 20, 2001 9:53 am

Nilan,
Toarn's beliefs are not only his own. Many of our clans wish the same fate upon the city of "squander". In time it will fall, and the clans will rise to power again.

Tkik Timberwolf
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Postby Jurdex » Tue Nov 20, 2001 10:09 am

Its not like people can't pay the fine.

The option is there.

Hey, maybe they should just make it so that once you step foot in WD the elites track you down then kill you if you haven't paid the fine in time.

Or a different solution: no exp at all in hometowns.

Wouldn't that suck?

I still don't see how justice is forcing RP on anyone. By that logic you could say selling/buying eq is forcing RP. You don't have to do those, but they are beneficial.

I've been tied up and turned in by another player and executed before. I viewed it as part of the price I paid for exping on WD mobs.

Dornax
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Postby Keran » Tue Nov 20, 2001 11:24 am

Nilan,

You and I need to talk. Waterdeep, the Uthgar-forsaken cesspool of Squanders, is single-handedly responsible for the execution of my friend Keran. For it was upon his death that I threw down my totem and took up my blade.

Rest assured, Waterdeep with fall. Either by the hands of the Mighty Barbarian Tribes or by the evil races that oppose them. I would revel in an "alliance" of sorts. Only then will our way of life be preserved. For the City of Spoils has rotted our youth and lambasted our life on the plains.

Raise your dagger and let your strike hit true. Revenge shall be ours and we shall both reclaim what is rightfully ours!

I will not rest until Waterdeep has fallen - its walls left in shambles, its citizen's pillaged, and a vengeful enema exacted on its streets.

We will wipe them out. I will not relent. It will be so.

Let us confide in this common goal and formulate a plan.

Long praise Uthgar, Father of the Barbarian Tribes...

Toarn Kegraider - Vengeful Hellion
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Postby Yayaril » Tue Nov 20, 2001 11:47 am

However, Corth, there are repercussions for capturing folks and turning them in. It's this big greasy thread, and it's sister thread 'IMPHRAS DESPARATE FOR PLAT!!!!!11!'. I think we're all paying for my bounty hunting with this festering wound on the BBS. Oh yeah, also I don't think Ebgar will be ressurecting me any time soon =). Oh yeah, nor Ladak. Blubble definitely won't be ressurecting me. I'm pretty sure Toarn will not ressurect me now, because I turned him in. Worst yet, Keseyil won't ressurect me either. Guess my corpses will rot. Please, will someone ressurect me?!!

Yayaril
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Postby Zrax » Tue Nov 20, 2001 3:04 pm

I hate you even more now milkman dan
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Postby Ranon » Tue Nov 20, 2001 3:28 pm

I think that this would all be great on a real PK mud. I think that partial PK abilities such as tieup on a totally non-PK mud adds inbalance, and when a person is hiding behind RP to make other players suffer, and enjoy the game less, I'd like the ability to make that person suffer back to level one as well. And yes, I think that Yayaril is hiding behind RP reason. I mean what person in normal state of mind would burn so many bridges with other people? What if there was some other Shadow of Impras wanted, would you turn him in too? I don't think so...and yeah, this is totally racist RP IF it is, and as we all know your mud personality reflects a lot about your real life personality, and it just simply tells me what kind of person is Yayaril.
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Postby Todrael » Tue Nov 20, 2001 3:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
<B>You're right Corth. I thought about it a lot and this message is what I'll be sending to any of my potential targets in the future:

Yayaril tells you 'Hello, my name is Yayaril Varixalyn. You may or may not know that you caused a crime! This is indeed a bad thing, but you probably don't care since you didn't bother to turn yourself in or pay your fine. No problem. If it isn't too much inconvenience, do you mind if I try to hunt you down and turn you in to the judge? I mean, it doesn't matter that you caused an inconvenience to that poor street cleaner who was picking up the empty beer bottle when you decided to run up to him and slice his head off. So, if you will, please consent to me tying you up and dragging in? Or you can just go on your way murdering derelicts of the street. Thank you for your time.
Yayaril- the friendly neighborhood bounty hunter.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't find this idea far fetched. If you've ever played on some of the true RP muds, you'll know that on many, people ask others OOC before they do anything horrible to that person. If the person you are hunting is a roleplaying they'll send you a tell back saying 'Catch me if you can, scum sucking bounty hunter!' and give you a myriad of emotes during the chase and capture.

Justice, currently, is wrong. Personally I will never be affected by it, as I live in evil hometowns. But to see others be able to blatantly kill another player without any fears of repurcusion is just very wrong in my opinion. When RP turns you into something that hurts other people on a constant basis, it's going way too far.

-Todrael
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Postby moritheil » Tue Nov 20, 2001 3:56 pm

ack! Toarn!


Heed the Zenmaster.

Jurdex, if you want realism, how would a level 50 defender of waterdeep be executed on the say-so of a drunk or a streetwalker? It doesn't make that much sense.

Maybe we could just make it so you lose some prestige when sentenced. Death is harsh for those of us who have RL things to tend to.
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Postby Nokie » Tue Nov 20, 2001 4:03 pm

As many of you know, the tieup helpfile states that abusers of the command will be dealt with harshly.

I'd like to ask the staff what, in their minds, constitutes 'abuse'?

Is it tying up someone and turning them in while they are LD?

Is it tying someone up when they are in the middle of a zone with a group?

Is it tying someone up and dragging them into an aggro area?

Is it sitting at the inn with triggers for all the wanted people and dragging them all to their death/inprisonment?

Is it knowingly using the command when it is bugged?

Is it asking for someone to help you get a piece of eq, grouping with them, and then after they help you (while still grouped), you tie them up and turn them in?

I'm sure I can think of others, but I think we all could use some direction here as to what "abuse" is with tieup. I think these past few days we've seen, what some of us at least, are considered abuses.

------------------
Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
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Postby thruar » Tue Nov 20, 2001 5:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>
Maybe we could just make it so you lose some prestige when sentenced. Death is harsh for those of us who have RL things to tend to.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like this idea, instead of getting excecuted, instead lose 50-100 prestige from evil acts or an idea of "you are not welcome in WD" until you have a certain pristige on a certain level to rebuild your reputation. We all know prestige does not come easy (slow exp gain or arena fights only. I know first hand with highest prestige in game it is not easy to get 1 point and hardly arena). I never believed anyone should be forced into RP with someone who prefers it. People who don't have time to play exp for their 2-3 and zone for couple hours a day dies and res or not just waste time and discourages players.

Justice like this should never be put in a players hands because it could have a chance to be widely abused and possibly been done. Disable justice code for now until further review is my take.

This is not a pkill mud.


[This message has been edited by thruar (edited 11-20-2001).]
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Postby Zoldren » Tue Nov 20, 2001 6:41 pm

thruar, I would agree w/you except one thing, rogues are the "bad/evil guys" and they also own the arena, so making prestige up is easy for them....
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Postby Faerlien » Tue Nov 20, 2001 7:57 pm

This could be an idea, or at least spawn other ideas.

How about this if you turn someone in you get a bounty hunter flag.

You know how Paladins of Torm will kill evils races on sight, well perhaps there could also be evil mobs that would kill bounty hunters. After all if I'm an assassin, and I see a bounty hunter, I'm going to try to dispose of him before he tries to catch me.

Justice is here, it probably won't go away. So lets try to fix it and stop complaining about it.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:24 pm

I'm not bad. I'm not even evil. I'm happiness and sunshine and light... that's honey on my fingers!
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Postby Cerlayne » Tue Nov 20, 2001 10:22 pm

i'd like to see a god answer Nokie's questions... when one gets some free time of course.. grin...

i agree with the 'idea' of justice in wd... however from what i have seen the way it's being used is twinkish for the most part...

and there is a big difference between rp and using rp to 'explain' being a jerk... when i think of rp i think of nilan.. when i think of nilan i think what a great guy he really is... i wish i thought that way about everyone claiming to be rp'ing

shrug.. hopefully this will be looked into...
altho miax did answer some of the questions on a similar thread.. we all know which thread... smirk.. maybe he can post part of his response here...

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Postby Guest » Tue Nov 20, 2001 10:49 pm

let me explain a few things. justice was implemented in part because (a) from an RP standpoint, NO town, medieval or otherwise, is going to tolerate the random slaughter of its citizens, and (b) from a gaming standpoint, the world is sufficiently large that making XPing more difficult in hometowns is a viable option. look at it this way - we have designated 16 zones out of the 180(?) in the game as "justice" zones.

following from that, the premise is very easily stated - if you don't want to deal with the justice system, you don't have to. DON'T COMMIT ANY CRIMES. people seem to equate the justice system only with the bountyhunting/judging/sentencing side of it and not with the requisite antecedent - the committing of a crime. it is EXTREMELY difficult to "accidentally" commit a crime. by committing a crime, you are choosing to participate in the justice system.

I should also point out that, in the interests of fairness, first-time offenders are automatically given a slap on the wrist. this is to ensure that nobody accidentally gets "sucked into" the justice system without knowing what it is. thus, in the end, it comes down to a simple choice: commit a crime and risk the penalties, or don't and don't. clearly, everyone knows what the potential penalties are, but if not let me state them here: no penalty, fine, jail sentence or execution.

and no nokie, we're not going to catalog every instance of abuse for you. I'm sure you can see how that would be a futile exercise. just use some common sense. for example, tying someone up and dumping them on astral would be abuse. (in fact, I believe something like that happening to nilan is why we disabled dragging across portals although my memory's a bit sketchy here).

from my read of the log, and some of his posts, what happened with yaya appears to have been an honest mistake, and I'm willing to extent him the benefit of the doubt. it appears that he didn't realize that tieup was bugged until he had already turned his victim in. mistakes happen, and I'm not going to crucify him (or anybody else) for them - I'm sure some of the rest of you will do that just fine without me.

all of that being said, I am sensitive to the fact that the thrust of the initial post in this thread was that there is no way to defend against bounty hunters for those who do choose to participate in the justice system by committing crimes. perhaps we can add some sort of penalty to the bounty hunter who fails to tie up his victim other than just the current 3-round (or whatever it is) lag. maybe a chance for the hunter to be KO'ed by the criminal?

--D2

[This message has been edited by D2 (edited 11-20-2001).]
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Postby Nokie » Tue Nov 20, 2001 11:09 pm

D2, are you sure about this? The first time Nokie was actually hauled to the judge, he was executed. ( http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000441.html ). That was the first (and still only) time I was ever judged. So in this instiance, as a 'first time offender' I was executed, not given a slap on the wrist.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by D2:
I should also point out that, in the interests of fairness, first-time offenders are automatically given a slap on the wrist.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



------------------
Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
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Postby Nilan » Wed Nov 21, 2001 2:22 am

*grins evily*

Toarn,

Im glad you are true to your words and your Barbarian pride is second to none. You do not flinch at being contacted by a drow assassin, one who despises Waterdeep more than any. It is a credit to your strength and courage. *bow*

Contact me, Barbarian of the Northlands, so that we might put arms aside and discuss the fall of a tyrant and his City. All that support his banner shall meet "Tyr" "Torm" and "Mielikki" personally *snicker*.

Let us then see who's souls are truley perpared.

Nilan

ShadowStalker - Velg'larn - Orbdrin D'oloth
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Postby Vylare » Wed Nov 21, 2001 3:22 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
<B>
Then, there's equipment. Players compete to get the gear they want. Players race each other to that rare, or even camp on it to get it first. People fight over who gets Loki in Invasion or people argue over who gets Korahl in Evermeet.

Then even lower on the rung is just competition over experience. Hey, that was MY dock master!


Yayaril</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could just as easily say this is PVE - players are (normally) in groups trying to defeat the mob to get exp or get eq. Cooperation between players in a group is at the core of Sojourn - without it there would be little spanky equipment to sell, and depending on class exping would be hard to impossible. No one would need to worry about competition for zones, because I don't see a lot of people soloing big zones.
It's not about ruining other people's enjoyment of the game. If I wanted that, I'd play Duris. *Shrug*



[This message has been edited by Vylare (edited 11-20-2001).]
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Postby Nilan » Wed Nov 21, 2001 7:51 am

Justice is great for the game.

I like it, always have. And yup D2 thats basically why dragging through portals was fixed.

pitty how people can try to abuse a cool aspect to the game.

Nilan

wanted in IX (squidtown) and not looking forward to seeing how Illithids execute people *shudder*

Image
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:02 am

D2 about summed up my whole outlook on the situation. If anyone gives me trouble from now on, I'll just say 'What D2 said.' or shorten it to 'WD2S'. As for justice in Ixarton, I heard they don't do executions in the normal way, Nilan. I heard that they invite you as a guest to one of their dinners..

Yayaril
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Nov 21, 2001 2:55 pm

My first and only offense this wipe. Got caught trying to steal something in the Leuth castle. I couldn't help it, it just looked so purty. No slap on the wrist, got a hefty fine.
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Postby Zrax » Wed Nov 21, 2001 3:09 pm

I suppose it is easy to agree with d2's post on this because he didn't address the issue at all. The issue in this thread was never that justice should be removed. In the original posters thread he clearly stated that it is fine when the guards catch him and take him in. Instead of saying what d2 says just say what this whole thread says because all his post did was reiterate what had already been said in a very condecending manner. It does little to clarify anything however and offers no justification for a justice system in which players can directly have a lasting negative affect on other players.
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Postby Salen » Wed Nov 21, 2001 5:57 pm

Along with Ashiwi, Shylistin (who no longer plays) got executed on first offense in Leuth. Seems like they slapped him way too hard.
Also, I have twice accidentally committed a crime w/out hurting anyone, both by aggro'ing non-evils with holy word. 1 was just stupid, the other was in the invasion of BG.

In a RL view of the justice system, it works perfectly. The only people who get away with crime are those overlooked, those who are extrememly big (level here, importance in RL) or those who have made their life one of crime. So who does juctice stop? Preety much everyone except the Rogues. Irony is best served...with a dagger?

I've always claimed the Justice Systm is 'Tarded, just glad to see someone is finally agreeing with me.
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:02 pm

Ahhh, Salen, but until they clear their names, the high level rogues will always find people with rope waiting around corners for them..


Yayaril
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Postby Guest » Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
I suppose it is easy to agree with d2's post on this because he didn't address the issue at all. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

perhaps you missed the last paragraph of my post. I addressed the initial post of this thread with that final paragraph. I'm sorry if you found my tone condescending - that was certainly not my intention and, upon re-reading my post, I'm not quite sure what you found condescending.

nokie, it occurs to me there may be a level limit on the "first time offender" thing - but I can't remember and unfortunately I cannot access the code from this location to check. and by the way, I'm still open to suggestions as to what sort of penalties a bounty hunter should incur for failing a tie-up in order to help level the playing field for criminals.

--D2

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