Sunray

[Jurdex]

- Undead mobs weren't getting a saving throw to avoid the blinding effects of sunray, they are now.

Why in the world after six years was one of the druid's most useful spells completely nerfed?

Dornax
Jurdex

[Gormal]

I thought sunray vs undead was like the point of it in the first place.

[Lalsed]

It's not like it's a small saving throw either it seems. You know those spectre's in GC? Well, I decided to test sunray on one, and it took only three sunrays to blind it, only three, gee, that doesn't suck, er, yes it does.


Lalsed- The Shafted Druid

[moritheil]

sunray nerf is bugged. This is the convo Lalsed and I had... Lokar also reported issues, and Lili said she had noticed no difference yet. These are NON undead we are talking about.

< 463h/331H 170p/170P 122v/122V >
<> You tell Lalsed 'nog... but nonundead are now harder to blind'
< 461h/331H 170p/170P 122v/122V >
<>
Lalsed tells you 'I think they should just delete all druids and make them conju
rers, that woudl solve the problem'
< 457h/331H 170p/170P 122v/122V >
<> You tell Lalsed 'normally I blind a cat in 2-3 but today I tried 7 x no blind
'
< 449h/331H 170p/170P 122v/122V >
<> You tell Lalsed 'rofl'
< 448h/331H 170p/170P 122v/122V >
<>
Lalsed tells you 'or we could just make it so druids suck even more'

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>sunray nerf is bugged. This is the convo Lalsed and I had... Lokar also reported issues, and Lili said she had noticed no difference yet. These are NON undead we are talking about.

< 463h/331H 170p/170P 122v/122V >
<> You tell Lalsed 'nog... but nonundead are now harder to blind'
< 461h/331H 170p/170P 122v/122V >
<>
Lalsed tells you 'I think they should just delete all druids and make them conju
rers, that woudl solve the problem'
< 457h/331H 170p/170P 122v/122V >
<> You tell Lalsed 'normally I blind a cat in 2-3 but today I tried 7 x no blind
'
< 449h/331H 170p/170P 122v/122V >
<> You tell Lalsed 'rofl'
< 448h/331H 170p/170P 122v/122V >
<>
Lalsed tells you 'or we could just make it so druids suck even more'</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How sunray effects nonundead didn't get touched.

[moritheil]

OK... I know that was the intent... has the code actually been checked or are you just clarifying the change? I just want to be sure. Thanks.

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
OK... I know that was the intent... has the code actually been checked or are you just clarifying the change? I just want to be sure. Thanks.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes

[Yasden]

Oh heaven forbid druids can't be walking mistweaves anymore....I'm heartbroken. Really.

*SNORT*

C'mon now....you all know that undead have high MR anyway. But druids were above and beyond all other spellcasters in casting against undead..not anymore...

Deathmagnet

[Sarell]

I agree with Jurdex, I thought it was a feature, been around a kinda long time. It was an interesting spell, now FAR less useful. The help file on it sugests it was meant to be used against undead, the damage component against undead doesnt hit very often (especially compared to the 100% accuracy of any area spell) so it really has been 'nerfed'.

Secondly, why?...surely it was just not 'overlooked' for this many years.

Unbalancing?, I think not, ever hear the phrase lets bring a druid and twink 'xxxxx' with sunray?...boggle...

Were druids considered too powerful because they have sunray? *boggle*....

[Jurdex]

You have totally changed the druid compared to what it was on every other incarnation of this mud.

A druid used to be good at everything, exceptional in nothing. Now, now the class is a wannabe invoker.

The druid got nothing but damage spells.

They are even much less effective when not outdoors (which is the majority of the time on this mud).

Now you rob it of yet another staple of the class. The druid has less utility than an illusionist, less damage than an invoker, less healing than any priest class, and now it is once more less effective.

Perhaps take away some of their damage spells before you nerf their one useful utility spell against undead. Every druid I know seems to be in favor of this.

I mean, after six years this was deemed too powerful? *boggle*

Dornax
Jurdex

[Todrael]

Welcome to Lich-World.

As far as I can tell, the Gods have decided that for Sojourn 3, the only way to kill a mob will be with thousands of points of damage spread out over a period of hours, and praying that the mobs won't heal enough that your last run wasn't completely worthless.

The game is being systematically reduced to a simple equation: damage vs. hps vs. healing. All effect spells are being reduced or taken out of the game. Buffing spells are on the rise in every class as tanking skills are decreased as well. Mob AI is being reduced or taken out altogether, being replaced by specials and procs. Skills don't mean anything. Effects don't mean anything. Reaction speed and intelligence don't mean anything.

One day in the future, a 'zone' run will be walking to one south of a house somewhere with a mob in it that has no brain, just some nifty specials. 30 spells will be cast at a single tank, timers for these will be activated by advanced trigs that report the amount of time left on them. The tank will leave north, and the 14 other members of the group will walk in and start dealing damage to the !bash 50% magic resistance mob with -500 sv_spell. The invoker will start watching tv, letting his trigs do the work. The cleric and shaman will hit group every now and then to see when they should heal. Then the tank calls out when the enchanter says prots are going to start dropping and everyone leaves to remem.

I've already played a mud where downgrades such as this have happened so much that there isn't a single effect spell still in the game that does anything. When I logged onto Sojourn for the first time in 4 years, I nearly cried for the simple fact that a blind mob is actually blind. That being invisible makes it so that many mobs can't see you. The spell called 'paralysis' actually paralyzes.

Damage vs. hps vs. healing. A simple equation that can destroy the world we all find enjoyable and fascinating. Are these extreme examples? Yes. But ask yourself this before you reply: Isn't this where the mud is heading with every new day?

-Todrael, tired

[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 11-30-2001).]

[gordex]

"A successful sunray causes blindness to all those in the room not grouped with the caster. It does a lot of damage to an undead victim, and a lesser amount of damage to all other undead in the room."

*SIGH* Par for the course.
Nowhere in the help file does it say it automatically blinds undead, however, this was a nice feature of being a druid for years since druids sucked so hard for so long. We hardly do damage with it (doesn't hit very often) and with the new area spell code, some don't even get touched, so don't get blinded or hurt. Are you taking this ability away since we do 'some' more damage now with other spells?
I'm interested in knowing why this change occured. At what point did this become a problem? Was this REALLY necessary?

(P.S. to the gods) These kind of changes will only seek to piss people off unless you as gods give a legitimate reason for it. I can't think of one, so please enlighten me.

Gordex - Gordex Travel Agency

[This message has been edited by Gordex (edited 12-01-2001).]

[kiryan]

I think its a legitimate change. I dont think it was completely nerfed. There is no 100% guarantee blind ability in the game cept for sunary, thats twinky. Mistweave was raped, blind spells have a sub 25% hit rate, and ebony is random. Now sunray is not guaranteed I think thats about right.

What kind of hit rate are we talking about now with sunray anyhow. After the most recent change where its rate was upped against undead. Im also curious to know what its rate was against non-undead pre and post nerf.

It occured to me until I read this thread that CC mustve been pretty damn easy for you guys. Did sunray work on bad ass evil mobs like lich and dracolich? If it was guaranteed blind on them too, you cant really think that was balanced can you?

As for druids always sucking now that they dont have sunray, I dont believe it. Well is about the best transport method (fold is perhaps better imo, but it also takes more time). Doom does as much as the uber powerful lich's rot (well uber may not be the case anymore, but it still does the sam dam and is more effective than rot, correct me if im wrong). Sunray probably still has a much higher hit rate than blind against undead, and its area (tell me another area blind spell). What was the chat on it *** is what i remember from soj1, but that was a while ago. Your pets are significantly bigger than they were in the past. You seem to have a lot of utility including uber well, quite a bit of dam, and some healing to boot.

Druids that think they suck is more boggling to me than the rangers. Druids uber spell has always been well and to a much lesser degree doom. Well is undoubtedly more requested than ress. If they made it so you couldnt well to a non-nature room, id support you guys. If you didnt think that well was/is all that special, you probably shouldve picked another class. Please dont say oh so all i am is a weller, you got dam spells too, and some other utility. If you didnt want to be more effective in nature areas than non-nature areas, again, probably shouldve picked another class.

As for comparing them to shaman, druids do more dam, shaman do more healing and stone. Shaman spirits got raped, Druids got improvements. Shaman gheal, Druids well. Whats so wrong about that picture? (im not all that versed on shaman btw, so please let me know where my analysis is flawed).

[Verarb]

-sunray blind rate is 0% in the daytime outdoors, bout 25%? elsewhere

-most of the mobs in cc are clerical and can remove blind, so about the only thing sunray does in cc is keep them from unholy wording right off the bat.

-so what if i blind liches? they still area and proc and knowing most of the high level mobs they're probably sorc/necro/clerical. How does blind make them roll over and die?

-dracolichs will shrug sunray.

-rot does more damage then doom.

-treants are not significantly bigger than old druid elementals, can't be summoned just anywhere and i think tank worse than wraith mentals.

oh yeah, prismatic spray = area blind, sometimes even blinds better than sunray.



[This message has been edited by Verarb (edited 12-01-2001).]

[Todrael]

Have you actually tested rot vs. doom? How much does doom do in comparison with inferno?

-Todrael

[Verarb]

yah tested them during alpha with Tanras. No idea about inferno though.

[kiryan]

pris is hardly area blind. Sometimes it does hit a lot of blinds and para ect, but its hardly area blind. 25% hit rate for an area blind is pretty nice. Id say its definitely not worse than casting single target blind, pwb, or pris, and on average Id say it blinds more often than pris. But only you guys could tell me if thats true or not. Hows it compare at 2nd gatehouse, or do you doom there instead. But thats an interesting question, What % would it take before you guys start casting sunray first instead of doom? Assuming you dont drag it that is.

Clerical mobs cure blind is far better than quaking / holy wording / silencing ect... and CC being easier has more to do with keeping the mobs, particularly the knights, from switching than keeping the ghouls/ghasts from casting their spells. Then again evils have some advantage since we dont get holy worded. Guess it was probably a wash with autoblind sunray.

On lichs and dracolich, thanks for the info. I think auto blinding super high level undead is wrong, good deal that it didnt affect undead dragons (true dragons that is), but guarantee blind on high level undead (50+) is a bit on the strong side wouldnt you say?

Old druid mentals were like 150 hp airs, 200 hp fires and 600hp solids. I saw acouple treants that rep 1k, i did see an 850 once i think, so I guess i dont know, they couldve been vitted to 1k which makes them about the same. Though an air vitted was truly a nice tank. Id forgotten about vit when i said druid pets are better now, perhaps this is not the case.

[Galok Icewolf]

Test the spells now.. rot was downgraded alot..

Doom does more damage.

[moritheil]

kiryan it's just like you to rejoice at the downgrading of a goodie only class.

Sunray wasn't 100% before. You forgot a nice little thing undead do called SPELL SHRUG, and yes, I have had the *effect* part of sunray shrugged several times before the change was in.

But the other thing all you downgraders forgot is that we are IMPOTENT outside nature rooms. What other class has to @#$% type 2 commands every single damn room just to figure out if he's going to be useful this fight, or if he's going to get owned? What other class gets 'oh we don't want to do nature stuff, sorry'? Maybe rangers at lower level, but c'mon.

Nothing was overpowering about the reliability of sunray, especially given that the undead were shrugging it part of the time anyhow. It just made those fights doable. Goodies have no detonate, I say if we downgrade sunray we nerf detonate to make up for it, what would you say then?

[moritheil]

PS - re: liches, todrael will confirm that I think liches have been castrated and that they deserve upgrade.

[moritheil]

oh and PS:
- I'm talking about normal shrugging undead, not dracoliches or whatnot.
- treants suck ass. my 500hps tree, with bark, tanks worse than I do. Their ac is too horrid and their def skills were nerfed. I see basically one treant shieldblock in a week of soloing, RL. Plus they can't bash 99.999% of targets. I don't care about that, since we're not conjes, but we can't summon them unless in nature (i.e. usually leave zone to do it). I don't begin to understand how ELEMENTAL planes are !nature, but that's another topic.
- when you give druids stone and a pet that can tank most of a jabber, yes I will listen to a gheal vs well argument. Shamans nuke better, solo better, and stun enemies. Gheal was indeed nerfed and I agree, but do not take it out on druids because we are still worse.
- well is a moot point. Mages can well. My little succu incident (see "I am elite" post) would not have happened if people in my group had DI up, but this is also easily avoided by picking a different plane like smoke. If you are fast there is no prob.

In conclusion, Druids don't really stand out, we're still jack of all trades and master of none.

[kiryan]

moreithel, my comments have nothing to do with goody vs evil.

Although I did post about CC possibly being super easy for goodies with a guaranteed blind. So was it not guaranteed for all undead that couldnt shrug, or can all undead shrug? Im ignorant on that, but I didnt notice any grid mobs shrugging inferno. Thought just dragons demons and a few select mobs shrugged. But since we want to belabor this point, which undead in CC used to shrug sunray pre-nerf? How about knights specifically since Id say they are the main reason for grid deaths in CC.

Ok, sounds like I was wrong about your pets. Was I wrong about doing more damage than shaman? If you didnt want the nature handicap or are envious of the shamans stone/pets, maybe you shouldve picked shaman? If I played a druid it would be for well, a shaman for gheal. If I wanted to have fun, id have to figure out what fun is for me and pick the class accordingly. For me thats zoning, hence im a warrior.

On downgrading detonate, it was downgraded recently because it worked on some wraith form mobs (this is herse, i havent seen it in the news)? If squids started a post about how that sucked and was dumb for an ugprade, id be right in that saying how does detonate work on a mob with physical substance?

Anyhow, perhaps druids need an upgrade, I dont know well enough. I dont think its way underpowered/balanced. Sunray needed a downgrade thats obvious. You dont give a class unbalanced crutches in order to make up for it sucking. You give it real features, not a twinky guarantee area blind spell.

You should be posting about why druids need an upgrade not why sunray should go back to its former twinkness.

[Ragorn]

The problem here is people posting comments about classes they've never played, based on what they see on paper.

I tried to make a point by yelling real loud about how overpowered bards are because they can heal, harm, blind, stun, para, fly, divinate, and area calm. Nobody seemed to get the joke though.

Kiryan, have you ever played a druid? No? You're arguing what you see on paper, while Moritheil is arguing years of mud experience. In my mind, that already puts his comments years before yours in the priority list. You butt in on all kinds of threads about classes you've probably never levelled past 30, demanding downgrades and justifying nerfs. 95% of the time, I make a point to skip any post with your name on it, because almost certainly there's some angry yelling about how people need to stop whining and how badly you need an upgrade instead of them.

This is really no exception.

Still reading the forums now and then,
- Ragorn

[kiryan]

I have experience with a 50 druid. thank you come again.

[Ragorn]

Do you have experience with a 50 Sojourn 3 druid, complete with all the new spell and skill changes?

No?

Then kindly shhhhh.

- Ragorn

[Asog]

I think that Idea of Druids only being able to well from nature...to nature is a damned good one.. From the middle of one city to another city??? whatever... why not make them more specialized.. Indoors in non natural surroundings nerf them hard.. but make them Extremely useful when out of doors or in natural surroundings.. I for one would rather have a character that Truely had a niche than one that was mediocre all the way across the board. but then again that's me in my twisted little world...

some examples.. in a water zone where water is plentiful.. give them a spell tsunami.. blah blah blah so much cool stuff could be done with Druids it's silly.. but trying to suit them to every situation isn't going to make ANYONE happy.

[rylan]

Quick note that someone asked..

Yes, undead (including those CC knights) could shrug sunray with MR before the change. Their magic resistance wasn't huge, but it was there.

Our groups used sunray more for the purpose of stopping unholy words from clerical undead mobs.

[Yayaril]

Wow, Ragorn was really owned there.


Yayaril

[Sarell]

no no no to making us worse in outdoors/!nature...

already i would give up well for the gate relocate combo any day hehe....

the amount of nature areas in the game, particularly zone is VERY slim already. It could be changed around but making spells useful then checking every single .wld file and balancing that to druids capabilities would be painful....
...it another thread i compared this forced realism to making mages practicing focusing heir minds for 5 hours a day...*shrugs*. Druids utilities that they have few of now have been chopped and chopped, ie PWT, sunray... Plz dont make us useless in zones and half vokers on BGR/TF grid

[kiryan]

half invokers + well + heal + vit + areablind + other useless stuff = good balance imo.

but then again im only going on the previous post that said druids were half invokers, i doubt thats true unless your only comparing doom to inferno. Still, I think you have a lot going for you. Id like to know the reasons you druids picked druids to play. Maybe the top 3. Prolly something like

1. i love druids from a rp/fantasy point of view
2. well
3. doom

How did any of that change? How about we list the top 3 ability reasons to play a druid.

1. well
2. doom
3. heal/vit

I dont think that changed either? I seriously doubt druids are hosed and worthless to play not that sunray has a save.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 12-03-2001).]

[moritheil]

quite frankly, I never have played druid for the damage, and I wasn't the one trumpeting druids to be vokerlike. I am fine with it, but I would much rather have uber utility.

Sunray imho is utility, since the damage it does is piddling (something like cause crit).

I still don't think it's a good idea to compare gheal and well.

[moritheil]

PS: to clarify: read help sunray, folks, even before the area code was in, it did not normally hit all mobs in the room. It hits <victim> with lesser effects on other mobs. You never know who you're going to piss off with that spell, and might I add that druids have no single target blind and no stun.

Druids are not broken without sunray, but were invokers broken without a single target nuke on 10th c? No; it simply fit with the role of the class.

What I don't understand is that druids were upgraded and now are downgrading again (?!). First dust devil, now sunray, although I can see reason for the dust devil/globe fix and none for sunray.

[Maladryn]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I mean, after six years this was deemed too powerful? *boggle*</font>

The spell used to have a save for undead, it should have never been no fail. I played a druid years ago (Amiral) for a LONG time and I don't EVER recall it blinding undead EVERY time. I recall it happening about 1/2 times for undead, and about 1/3 or 1/4 for all other mobs.

I don't know why you are all complaining, the druid had almost nothing useful 2-3 years ago and now they do tons of damage, comparable to invokers when dooming, you have the best group teleportation spell in the game (in some situations), you have the best armor increasing spell in the game, and you have several other damaging spells.

Why is the class 'nerfed'? I simply don't understand. If I had everything a druid had NOW, back then, I would have been the most powerful player in the game! Damn close anyway. I've seen Verarb solo Chloracrida, but druids are unbalanced? If anything, they are too powerful. When should ANY class be able to solo a dragon, skill, technique or otherwise?

I think druids are one of the 5 best classes on the mud now. You can tank, you can heal, you can help everyone else with the best ac decreasing spell, you can deal massive damage, you can area blind (with decent success once changes are in effet), hell you can even heal and vit! Somehow though, druids are not powerful enough.

Will anyone ever be satisfied? Don't even ask me if I've played a druid before, I played a druid for 4 years solid, in their OLD form. I think druids ROCK now.

Oh and let's not forget, you can make a really nice pet with the treant. But hey, druids suck now, so don't play them.

Maladryn, Amiral of old.

------------------
Some of you may remember me as Amiral!

[This message has been edited by Maladryn (edited 12-05-2001).]

[Yayaril]

Who was Amiral?


Yayaril

[kiryan]

a damn good player.

[moritheil]

All right Mal, I wasn't going to post anymore but I felt the need to clarify this. I had the same reaction you had when I first knew of the druid changes this incarnation. But you need to look at the situation. Most other classes have upgraded as well. Further, some of our old area nukes (cyclone, firestorm) have gotten much weaker. I can't even fix align with cyclone anymore; it misses just about everything. When it *does* hit, it no longer kills level 1 mobs all the time. (and yes, this is in nature)

And let's not forget that the nature restriction was never there before. The first month or so I started playing again, I was like, yeah cool whatever, it's worth the tradeoff. Now, I'm not so sure. For example, I used to do HP all the time with friends, and I can't really do it much now, because I can't beat a cleric for healing, and I can't beat a mage for nuking (all indoors). I haven't been there in at least a month, probably more like 2 or 3.

On the highlevel end, I understand you can't multidoom either, so that messes with the theory that somehow doom is gonna rival vokers (it's been shown two invokers can dish it out, one guy inferno, the other guy meteor/acidstorm). You have to wait patiently until your first spell effects completely disperse.

Not sure where you get !fail sunray from either; this was failing for me plenty on shrugging undead. I think !fail is a myth.

Mostly, though, I don't want to whine about damage. I think druids should be good utility, and this is why I posted an ideas thread for that.

[Maladryn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
When it *does* hit, it no longer kills level 1 mobs all the time. (and yes, this is in nature)</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well talk to Kia about that one. A while back if you read the news, the code was put in for some mobs to save versus area spells to take NO damage at all. As an invoker I experience this too with ANY of my area spells where mobs, regardless of level (level 1 or otherwise) will live through a swarm or thunderblast, because they have made that save to take no damage. This was mainly to prevent people from twinking second gatehouse with 4 people casting area spells simultaneously. I understand your frustration, but all casting classes have this restriction now.

[moritheil]

I am saying when they are in the blast radius, and they do take damage, but wind up at nasty wounds instead of dead, and they only have 5-6 hps anyhow, then I conclude cyclone is not nearly as effective at damage or align fixing as it used to be, because the next one almost always missses them and hits other mobs in room instead.

*shrug*

Still, my biggest peeve isn't with that, I'd rather see more utility.

[Liran]

I feel like I should toss my hat in the ring also. I agree with Maladryn, though even to say druids had almost nothing in the past is a stretch.

Druids are the ONLY completely self-sufficant class in the game. Who else can heal, cast protection spells, nuke, tank(pets), rescue(pets), area blind, silence, disarm, innate fly, PWT, plane shift, mass transit, and obtain 1K+ hps.
Not only can we do it all, but arguably we are the BEST at 3 of them (Doomie/Well/Barkskin).
If you want to talk survivability, go Druids!

And ask for more utility? Realize what you have, use it, and push it to the extreme.

I played a druid before Moonwell and Doomie were even put in the game.
Druids did not "suck" then, and they only got better. The only people who think so never understood their potential.

The only thing Druids lacked back then were NON-AREA, single target, offensive spells that were worth casting at higher levels. And look what happened...

Druids have lost none of our former glory, we took 10 steps forward and 1 step back, I think you can live with that.

Lir


[This message has been edited by Liran (edited 12-05-2001).]

[Galok Icewolf]

Druids that think they dont have utility make me laugh...

word of recall
barkskin
sense life
dust devil
transport via plants
sunray
heal
vitality
changestaff
suffocate
pass without trace
rock to mud, mud to rock
planeshift
moonwell

On top of having... The 3rd most damage spells in the game, behind only invokers and lichs.

creeping doom
hailstorm
cyclone
fire seeds
dessicate
flame blade
firestorm
sticks to snakes


Don't be mad at me because I wont play a sad violin for you, and mourn for your loss.

[gordex]

Its like I said in another post. Our spells KICK ASS!, we just need high level zones in which to use them effectively. It would be nice to go through current zones and change rooms, but that is unrealistic with the other issues that need to be addressed currently. Also consider that many high level zones have palaces, throne rooms, caves, etc. where they are indoors. Not many kings, dragons, etc. sit outside hehe.

ZONE MAKERS, please consider puting just one of the major fights in a nature room (if appicable) for future zones.

I feel our spell list is the most diverse in the game, but can't use them in high level zones that were created years ago. So far jot grid, some of TF, and oakville are the only high level zoning places I can think of where we are most effective (high level zones that have nature).

The downgrade to sunray made CC and crypts a bit harder now. FEAR the undead wraithform clerics now for (un)holy words will be spamming us more now than ever before (at least on the goodie side).

Gordex - Gordex Travel Agency

[This message has been edited by Gordex (edited 12-05-2001).]

[Maladryn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
I am saying when they are in the blast radius, and they do take damage, but wind up at nasty wounds instead of dead, and they only have 5-6 hps anyhow, then I conclude cyclone is not nearly as effective at damage or align fixing as it used to be, because the next one almost always missses them and hits other mobs in room instead.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understood perfectly what you said. Even when your spell HITS a mob, it had a chance to do 0 damage to that mob. That's part of the code now for ALL area spells and applies to ALL area casters, just not mobs.

[moritheil]

Did I say I was ungrateful?

The name of the game is change, classes are getting more powerful, more and more upgrades were supposed to be coming in. Galok, forgive me for what I have to point out, but you are *constantly* talking about how shaman gh downgrade or this or that about other class (like pali) is wrong. I think this must be a time in your life where you feel compelled to be critical or feel threatened by anything that would make druids more powerful, so I don't really know how to respond to that.

Nature room effect is a sweeping change across the board, don't scoff at it till you've played a few months and realize the huge difference it makes. I'm not against having it in, I just want it tweaked. Sunray is, by itself, not a massive deal but makes for a big -util in an area that was one of the few druid niches in the past.

This is a lot like what Rags said: oh look at this, look at that, bards must be uberpowerful *nog me*

[moritheil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Maladryn:
I understood perfectly what you said. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think so, because it didn't do 0 damage, it did 3 or 4. This leads me to belive it's only dealing, say 1d10, and I'm only actually killing anything with it because the mobs have 1d6 hps or something.

And if area'ing was the one thing druids could do, why is it necessary to nerf that? New single target nukes? IMHO I'd say screw that, I want more util.

Galok your assumption that we somehow own in util is almost laughable. Maybe at well and doom you are correct. But I can tell you a shaman at my level now will whup my arse. For keeping tank alive, for soloing, for nuking in the average room, and what is the great util I have? Transport is useless unless they expand its restrictions. pwt is SELF only. Illus util >> druid. Gater util >> druid.

And please, let's not just look at the L 50 angle of things. Thanks.