Economics: Code Vs. Player Use

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
tritian
Sojourner
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon May 14, 2001 5:01 am
Contact:

Economics: Code Vs. Player Use

Postby tritian » Tue Jun 26, 2001 8:11 pm

There is a sytem on the MUD, whose coded use, and use by players seem to be in direct contradiction. I am referring to theexchange rate of lower coin to higher levels of coin.

In the code for shops, practicing, etc. Shops will accept 10 gold as a plat, 100 silveer as a palt etc. But many players will not accept 1000 gold for a piece of EQ that they want 100 plat for. I have often asked players why they dont accept lower coin. Most of the time I get the response that "Lower coin are not worth as much because I have to exchange them."
Of course there are some players that don't mind and say "Hey as long as it equals the plat all is good" But these players are the exception and not the rule...not by a long shot.

This system of paying a fee to exchange coins always seemed odd to me for a couple reasons:

1. I think that charging to exchange coinage from one form to another from the same realm is bizzarre. I mean if I go to a bank and drop off 100 dollars in 1's and want a 100 dollar bill, do I get charged extra? No I do not. If I want to exchange a foreign currency no that is a different story. Now I know we do not have multiple currencies on the MUD so I can accept the exchange "policy" imposed at banks. But this brings me to me 2nd point

2. If this policy is in place at banks why would it not be in shops?? That seems backwards to me. It seems it would be in shops and NOT at banks. If I could exchange 10 g for a plat at the bank but it is a slightly higher exchange at a store (because the shop keeper has to lug all this extra coins across town) I can understand that.

Benefits to having the exchange fee lifted from banks:

1. It brings the code in line with the way that players are using the money system currently.

2. It makes copper worth something and not just a burden to drop on the ground all over the realm

3. I makes silver worth something other then to say "Hey look I have 20K in silver in the bamk to practice with"

4. Makes gold worth more to players who will no longer say "Damn I have 20k in gold I wish I didnt lose 40% of it to the frigging bank so I can buy that sword/armor/earring that I want"

I can not think of any drawbacks to lifting this system. If players think It would throw off the balanace (though I can not see how) I suggest putting the exchange rate on shops and not on the banks, where it makes more sense.


Comments appreciated...


Tritian
Nitania
Sojourner
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Nitania » Tue Jun 26, 2001 8:17 pm

I agree Image

Nitania - I dont have hoardes of any type of cash :P *yet*
cherzra
Sojourner
Posts: 1868
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Holland

Postby cherzra » Tue Jun 26, 2001 8:44 pm

Yeah and add interest so my hoard of 15k will be 20k next week!
tritian
Sojourner
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon May 14, 2001 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby tritian » Wed Jun 27, 2001 3:52 pm

Now I think "interest" is going too far.

I just think that removing the exchange rate at banks would have more benefits then drawbacks to the MUD on the whole.
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Wed Jun 27, 2001 3:57 pm

Why not ditch all except platinum coins?
Vipplin
Sojourner
Posts: 434
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Hawaii

Postby Vipplin » Wed Jun 27, 2001 3:59 pm

I agree. I think it would benefit new players and low level folks the most. If not to get rid of the exchange fee, it could be lowered to a flat 10% for any exchange between coin types? Either way I'm happy.

Even if the fee isn't removed or lowered, a command that would let you ask "How much silver will 5 plat cost?" at the bank would be handy...

Vipplin / Vadian
Blix
Sojourner
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Richardson, TX
Contact:

Postby Blix » Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:11 pm

I get asked why I won't accept lower coins for items almost everyday. My response is usually one of two things. Why should I have to exchange it if YOU don't even want to. Or, I posted my prices in PLAT so why are you asking if I will accept gold Image Neither response usually gets very friendly replies, but dang if it isn't kinda funny.
rylan
Sojourner
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Hudson, MA

Postby rylan » Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:56 pm

Hehehehe.. nods. 40% charge to trade up to play is pretty annoying. I don't think totally removing the fee would be a good idea, since it could lead to increased wealth inflation. Maybe just charge 20% fee to change up to plat instead.
Jols
Sojourner
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: WI
Contact:

Postby Jols » Wed Jun 27, 2001 8:22 pm

I totally agree with removing the fee to exchange money. It seems stupid that the bank charges you 14 g for 1p when you give them 1p and they give you 10 g. That doesn't make any sense. Also, why would not having an exchange fee cause inflation?? 100 g is still 10p. The money is there, we just decide to convert it to plat. Having no exchange fee would be like everyone trading in gold which is okay w/most ppl so there would be no 'inflation.'

Jols
Thurg
Sojourner
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2001 6:01 am
Location: IL, USA
Contact:

Postby Thurg » Wed Jun 27, 2001 9:03 pm

i agree i mean i have racked up large amounts of copper when i was small and it was worthless because people want p instead and if i exchage it i get almost no p for 50mil c (no i do not have 50mil c its simply a comparison) or even s for that matter... i would have to go with system of no fee at bank and fee at shop... or just no fee

------------------
Thurg, Zossonnarr, Gramordeus, Zanzor, Zhaxilor, Krondal
Tzat
Sojourner
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Postby Tzat » Wed Jun 27, 2001 9:04 pm

Removing the exchange rate would basically have the effect of giving everyone more money. Ok..fine. Then everyone increases their prices accordingly....supply and demand...nothing will really be different, all that will be accomplished is bringing player to player selling in line with shop to player selling... Currently shops have somewhat of a "discount" to them, implementing this change removes that difference.

Dontcha think?
cherzra
Sojourner
Posts: 1868
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Holland

Postby cherzra » Wed Jun 27, 2001 9:19 pm

I think it's fine as it is. If you don't want to take silver or gold when selling something, don't. I find it extremely useful when practising skills in my guild, something I'd rather not use my plat for.
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Wed Jun 27, 2001 10:25 pm

Frankly, I'm sad that people don't nurture the value of platinum by honoring it. I've met up with many a person who wouldn't take platinum at all for things they had listed on the boards. Nobody can force them to sell their goods for platinum, and I respect their decision to do only trades, but it sure does degrade the value of coin. I guess as long as there are poisons and potions to be bought, I'll always honor the platinum coin, but that's just because I'm a bit money pit..


Yayaril
Kaeldar
Sojourner
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:01 am
Contact:

Postby Kaeldar » Thu Jun 28, 2001 12:02 am

I like the exchange rate
it makes platinum more rare and more vaulable

Kaeldar Kalaze
PNC CEO


------------------
What did you expect?
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Thu Jun 28, 2001 8:20 am

Actually, if you wanted to set up a true MUD economy (with maximum buying for the day in shops, supply and demand, &c) it would make sense to include minor interest (maybe 3% per MUD year, or scaling depending on how much you have).

Beyond that, keeping to the current issue:

Personally, so long as I can carry the coins, I don't care what denomination they are in: I can find a use for them. Copper goes to practice, Silver and Gold go to practice and short walks to shops, while platinum is my obvious measure of wealth.

Killing the exchange rate is at least somewhat realistic (banks today don't charge 40% when I want to convert from a 5 $20s to $100).

------------------

Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Thu Jun 28, 2001 8:52 am

I say impose a flat 10% exchange rate across the board. 40% is rediculous, but I'm all about removing as much cash from the game as possible. One player having half a million plat is silly.

- Ragorn
silvea
Sojourner
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Holland

Postby silvea » Thu Jun 28, 2001 9:16 am

I myself like the exchange rates. It gives a small advantage to new players and no real problem to the older players.

All thoes piles of copper on the road get often collected by new players, who can buy some stuff in shops with it. All the silver I got goes into practice of skills. All the gold I got goes into practice of spells (they are expensive Image ). And the plat is nice to buy some stuff from players with.

Still the 40% exchange rate for plat is a bit over the top. I would suggest to lower it to 20%.
Lolok Frozencrow
Sojourner
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
Location: CANADA

Postby Lolok Frozencrow » Thu Jun 28, 2001 3:36 pm

My suggestion for the exchange rate would be to make the banks have free exchange days or something like that , where 1 day a month the exchange would be free, or have 1 bank somewhere where the exchange rate is always free , but... only for carried coins , no withdrawls (giggle)then make it so you have to travel over move eating terrain.

In addition to this maybe incorperate prestige into this , if you have a certain amount of prestige the bank owners would feel it in thier best interest to make you a perfered customer and wave the exchange rate.

I hope that soon we will be able to start to build houses and castles and such , then plats will be important, this is something i cant wait to see happen Image

L ImageL ImageK---Pimnn
Selias
Sojourner
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Wilmington, DE USA
Contact:

Postby Selias » Fri Jun 29, 2001 6:30 pm

I remember wondering why there was an exchange rate at the bank when I started mudding here, and someone explained to me that it was implemented (making me believe that at one point there was a zero exchange rate) in order to remove money from the game. Plat is easy enough to get as it is, you just need to know where to go to get it, and once you hit 40, it's pretty much worthless.

Fixing the exchange rate won't really fix anything, it'll just put more plat in your account, and prices will go up. I forget who said it, but supply and demand is very simple, even on the mud.

If you're going to remove the exchange rate, do it when castles/kingdoms come in... that way there is an outlet for all that plat and people won't be sitting at 3w with 100k.

If I'm wrong about there once being a zero exchange rate, someone please tell me. It was at the very beginning of soj1 that it was free, so we'd need a real old schooler to verify Image

Sel
Nokie
Sojourner
Posts: 786
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Contact:

Postby Nokie » Fri Jun 29, 2001 7:18 pm

Err, I'm level 43 and plat is _far_ from worthlese for me.
Would anyone level 40+ please donate all of their platinum to Nokie, since it's worthless anyway? Image

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Selias:
<B>Plat is easy enough to get as it is, you just need to know where to go to get it, and once you hit 40, it's pretty much worthless.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Zrax
Sojourner
Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fairborn, OH, USA
Contact:

Postby Zrax » Fri Jun 29, 2001 7:35 pm

Some would argue that a person who plays a Halfling and plays a rogue would have little concept of what is worthless or not Image
Nitania
Sojourner
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Nitania » Sat Jun 30, 2001 1:18 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
Some would argue that a person who plays a Halfling and plays a rogue would have little concept of what is worthless or not Image</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure if this is an insult or a compliment to Nokie :P

Nokie is Okie!

Nitania
Vipplin
Sojourner
Posts: 434
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Hawaii

Postby Vipplin » Mon Jul 02, 2001 10:28 am

I still think it would mainly help the new players to lower/kill the exchange fee. Established players don't bother lugging copper around, and probably still wouldn't if it were worth 2x as much. Low-levels and other poor folk are willing to hump it over mountains already. Throw 'em a bone.

Yep, it would mean more money in the game, but mostly to the people who have the least. It would reduce the difference in cash reserves between higher levels and lower level players. That's just the way I see it. I still don't see it as a huge problem or priority issue, though.


Vipplin / Vadian
Turxx
Sojourner
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Turxx » Fri Dec 28, 2001 5:30 am

exchange rate is stupid
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Fri Dec 28, 2001 6:22 am

exchange rate allows low level chars to earn more money by dragging copper silver and gold to the bank. High level players dont really do it.

I've never had trouble spending gold silver and copper in training buying scrolls and potions and I had like 23000 gold. I havent wasted it yet buying plat.
Ensis
Sojourner
Posts: 629
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Portland, OR 97219
Contact:

Postby Ensis » Fri Dec 28, 2001 7:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>I'm all about removing as much cash from the game as possible. One player having half a million plat is silly.

- Ragorn</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I know some of you super-skilled guys are experts at hoarding cash, but that doesn't mean you should go out of your way to drain it. There are people that aren't experts on accumulating wealth, I'm one of them.

I think the cash-sink idea is a bad one, it "benefits" (i dont even know if that word makes sense in this situation) those high levels who are good at accumulating cash. I'm 46th level and I dont think I have more than 100 plat in my bank.

If you have such a big problem with having too much cash, duckpond it.

Comments like these infuriate me. Just like people who camp a rare long enough to get one, then bitch because its too common and they dont have the only one.

Stop dicking over newbies just becuase you want to feel special.

E


[This message has been edited by Ensis (edited 12-28-2001).]
User avatar
Shevarash
FORGER CODER
Posts: 2944
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 6:01 am

Postby Shevarash » Fri Dec 28, 2001 8:11 am

I think Ragorn is referring to the fact that there is already far too much coinage in the realms, and removing the exchange rate would effectively remove the biggest cashsink in the game.

I will reserve my personal comments for another time.



------------------
<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
Vipplin
Sojourner
Posts: 434
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Hawaii

Postby Vipplin » Fri Dec 28, 2001 9:55 am

I think a flat 10% exchange rate would be nice. As Kiryan said, he (and many other established players, I'm sure) have no need to exchange and so don't suffer from the exchange rates.

Players who aren't high enough to zone yet or don't get into zone groups frequently end up buying equipment, and most people want to be paid in plat. So the players who lose out are those who are scraping up cash to buy that one nice eq item they've been wanting/needing.

If this is a way to reduce the 'mountains of cash' problem, it isn't working because those people with mountains of cash don't need to exchange.

As I've said before, It'd be nice to see this change in my opinion, but it isn't a priority.

Vadian
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Fri Dec 28, 2001 12:26 pm

I'll point out that I made that comment in June.

Here's the problem with coinage:

With guidhalls on hiatus, there are precious few ways to remove coins from the game. Potions, poisons, and Tinker Bags are the three that spring to mind. Now then:

1) The gods don't want potions in the game that duplicate necessary effects like haste or stone. The days of the 100p haste/stone potion are gone.

2) Only one class uses money for poisons.

3) Each player will probably buy no more than one Tinker Bag, and not every player will buy one at all with the selection of other containers available.

3a) Tinker Bags cost so MUCH money that no player could ever think of lugging coins smaller than plats out to Tinkers. Elves can barely carry the 8-9k plat as it is.

A 40s exp group of 4 can farm a couple of hundred plat an hour, easily. So plat enters the game at a rate of several THOUSAND plat every single day, and doesn't leave the game in any significant and consistant manner.

The exchange rate helps remove money from the game, but it does it poorly. The rate is so high that most players are loathe to pay the extra 40% unless they absolutely have to... and it's very rare for a player to be in a situation where he's forced to exchange. Some high levels exchange out of habit, since gold and silver have absolutely no place in player-to-player transactions, and those coins are equally useless in player-to-mob transactions for the reasons above. Others stockpile 200,000 silver coins for no good reason.

I'll cut the economics analysis here, unless anyone really cares.

I still hold to my original suggestion, but I want to expand it a little:

- Reduce the rate to 10% across the board.

- Then, add centers where players can trade their coins for temporary spell effects. It's doubtful that a mage in Waterdeep selling stoneskins for 20p and clerics selling full heals for 25p would be abused.

- Finally, code it so that shops take money out of the player's account the same way the guildmaster does. It's tedious to lug 25,000 silver coins around. Let the players use their plat for player-to-player transactions, while they dump their smaller coins off on potions, poisons, and spells.

I dunno, seems logical to me.

- Ragorn
P.S. For anyone who's interested, selling platinum coins in Waterdeep for 12g each netted me a couple thousand plats of profit last wipe. Players that want to exchange to buy stuff from other players will jump at the chance to cut the rate in half, and you make 2g on the plat which you can use for your poisons or guild startup fees.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Fri Dec 28, 2001 12:58 pm

Spell effects for sale in a hometown would directly benefit people who are powerleveling alts. A real newbie would not be able to afford 30plat a spell or whatever.

On the other hand, maybe its not such a bad thing to make it easier for people to try out different classes once they have leveled one up to a certain point that they have some cash burning a hole in their pocket.

Corth
Xyd
Sojourner
Posts: 177
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Naperville, IL US
Contact:

Postby Xyd » Fri Dec 28, 2001 2:19 pm

Yeah, remove the exchange rate.

...but add a cost for renting at the inn. Storage chars become the cashsink and suddenly people are selling so they don't have to pay to store it.

;-)

.xyd
Todrael
Sojourner
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: MI, USA
Contact:

Postby Todrael » Fri Dec 28, 2001 4:06 pm

Our guild leader withdrew the large majority of our platinum to see if Kiaransalee would take the monthly fee out of our smaller coinage, of which we have over a hundred thousand. I was most amused when she said we didn't have enough to cover the fees, seeing as we had in excess of several thousand platinum, even counting bank exchange rate. Obviously gold, silver and copper should just be removed from the game, and have platinum be the only coin in the realm.

-Todrael
Vipplin
Sojourner
Posts: 434
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Hawaii

Postby Vipplin » Fri Dec 28, 2001 4:22 pm

Todrael - I'd be happy to take yours off your hands. I'll be on tonight probably starting at 9 or 10pm Image

Vadian
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Fri Dec 28, 2001 4:36 pm

we have no cash sinks. We have some situations where plat leaves the game, but not in a consistent and large enough volume to even be considered a cash sink.
Nokie
Sojourner
Posts: 786
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Contact:

Postby Nokie » Fri Dec 28, 2001 6:00 pm

Guildhalls, player-owned houses, and storage chests should address this problem quite nicely.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
we have no cash sinks. We have some situations where plat leaves the game, but not in a consistent and large enough volume to even be considered a cash sink.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
cherzra
Sojourner
Posts: 1868
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Holland

Postby cherzra » Fri Dec 28, 2001 6:04 pm

Now if you could buy a ress for 5000 plat or an uncurse for 250... Image
Ensis
Sojourner
Posts: 629
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Portland, OR 97219
Contact:

Postby Ensis » Fri Dec 28, 2001 6:40 pm

Aright..now that i'm not super tired I take back the pseudo-flame on Ragorn.

My whole point was, ARE cashsinks necessary? Look at those people that have tons and tons of cash, they've probably been around awhile, or have been hoarding and refuse to buy stuff. Usually when i get over 300 plat i buy something for myself or give it to someone else to buy something.

I don't bid stuff to sell it, I don't loot and log, and I usually end up only getting something i need if anything at all from zones. I like to think this is a considerate practice rather than start bidding stuff to sell so I can placate the cash sinks.

Sorry for soundin inflammatory before, i generally try to be !fire in posts Image

E
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Fri Dec 28, 2001 8:12 pm

You were flaming a 6 month old post. I didn't even read it Image But thanks for calming down some.

Why do we need a cash sink?

The law of supply and demand dictates that the more of a commoditiy there is in the game, the less valuable it is. Swirling dragon tattoos are worth more than gleaming holy longswords.

As it stands right now, plat is only tentatively useful as a currency. Since there's no in-game use for platinum coins, they have no inherent value. The only reason people sell things for plat at all is because they believe they can use that plat to purchase other useful items from other players (tinker bags and poison notwithstanding). Every player in the game could suddenly stop accepting plat as currency, and very little would actually change because plat is not useful on Sojourn in and of itself.

Because cash doesn't go anywhere, everyone is just getting proportionally richer.

Now, if there were an option in the game to trade your excess coinage for some useful effect, coins would suddenly find some value. People would want to accumulate coins to spend them inside the game as opposed to merely passing coins around. The side benefit of this is, it takes coins out of circulation and decreases the supply, making them doubly more valuable.

Without a "cash sink", the total net worth of all the players in the game will just spiral endlessly upward. Plat will eventually lose its value completely because many high level players will have so much money that selling an item for another couple hundred p isn't even worth it anymore.

That's the value of a cash sink. It keeps the total net worth of the mud in check, adds something for people to trade their money for, and removes coins from the game (making them more valuable). The game doesn't NEED a cash sink, but the economy will never stabilize if there isn't one.

Especially with trade "coming soon".

For those of you who play Diablo 2, Gambling is the cash sink. How valuable would gold coins be if you couldn't gamble? Not at all.

- Ragorn
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Dec 28, 2001 8:32 pm

I've never had a lot of coin, and I doubt I ever will. I'm not driven to be rich, I'm not driven to own the best of the best of the best gear. I don't typically bid on things I can't use, even abstained from bidding on anything from the MD run I was fortunate enough to get in on last night. I'd never been to the zone, owned none of the eq from the zone, but the eq isn't exactly geared towards rogues, so I didn't see much point in adding my bid to items already in contention from people who COULD use them.

With the addition of "cash sinks" will I have to completely change my style of playing? Will I suddenly have such a need for coin that I find it necessary to start squabbling on bids for items I don't even use so I can sell them? Will I have to waste my time in places where the plat can be made, just so I can afford to play?

I enjoy doing quests more than anything, and with that in mind, know that I collect bags and bags of useless junk, and at times that serves me well. I wouldn't mind paying for a locker to store all my belongings, but if I can't afford to keep it because it's supposed to be so expensive in order to sap coins from the higher level players, and I don't have time do do what I enjoy doing because I'm too concerned with making the cash, or i EVER find myself thinking I need to try to hawk tiny silver rings in order to turn a quick coin off of some hapless newbie, then that will be the day I will no longer enjoy the game.

I've played games before where you had to pay to rent each piece of equipment you wore... I usually played them until the first time I rented and found out about that little bit of coding, then I didn't bother playing them again.

I play this game to get away from the rat race, why in the world would I want to work my butt off to get the quest items for one of the pieces of gear I'm wearing if I only have to work my butt off every single time I play just to keep it?
Kuurg
Sojourner
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Faang
Contact:

Postby Kuurg » Fri Dec 28, 2001 10:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Spell effects for sale in a hometown would directly benefit people who are powerleveling alts. A real newbie would not be able to afford 30plat a spell or whatever.
Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But these people who have cash to powerlevel alts are exactly the people you'd want to get excess cash from.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
I play this game to get away from the rat race, why in the world would I want to work my butt off to get the quest items for one of the pieces of gear I'm wearing if I only have to work my butt off every single time I play just to keep it?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. I always hated muds with rental fees and only played on one of them for more than the first day (the exception lasted until someone gave me a decent item and I couldn't afford to rent with it.)

Player Homes/Guildhalls - are good cash sinks.

------------------
·•Kuurg•·
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Dec 31, 2001 5:56 am

I am in favor of having eq sinks. All this eq comes into the game daily. Valk swords, flambies, gcd's etc. How will it be special if everyone gets one?

Mob disintegrate procs could be imped.
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Mon Dec 31, 2001 4:25 pm

I think that one of the real issues being addressed here is not the surplus of cash, by itself, but the surplus of cash in the experienced and high level players' hands. Unfortunately, the idea of "cash sinks" or "equipment sinks" is still going to hurt the newer player a lot more than the high level with a hoard to burn.

Spells in town that can be bought, for example... somebody was exactly right, it WILL be perfect for the high level who is pleveling their alt. So once again, we get a high level alt who will eventually have their own hoard. So isn't this simply a question of the rich getting richer? The ones who have too much cash are the ones who know how to get it.

Okay, there are those who don't ever split. This isn't knocking anybody, just using an example, but I definitely remember Cherzra posting once on the BBS that he never split cash in groups, he was the leader, he put up with the hassle, he kept the cash. So now he flaunts his mounds of plat and wants something to do with it. I'm not knocking his right to run his groups however he sees fit, it is his right to do so, but there is nothing that could be coded into the game that would adversely affect the amount of plat Cherzra has that would not hurt others with smaller bank accounts even more, unless we're talking about banks going under, and uninsured surpluses disappearing in the blink of an eye, but that's another world. Cherzra can make all the alts he wants and he can afford to pay 30 p a spell in order to plevel them, we're still going to have a dozen Cherzra alts running around with mountains of cash at high levels, who will then be leading their own groups and not splitting.

Sorry Cherz, I was just using you, nothing personal about that at all.

Anyway, those who can make the cash make it, right? So build as many cash sinks as you want, the people who make the cash now are still the ones who will be able to afford the cash sinks, and the people who don't will still be the ones trying to scrape it together. The only really viable option is to put in a system which encourages high levels to spend their mountains without punishing those who don't choose to play in the ways it takes to accumulate that kind of wealth. Now there's a challenge. Player homes? What a novelty, but would that really offer any kind of fulfillment beyond "Oh look, I have a house I'll never use." The best I see so far is guildhouses, but surely there are other ways to put the economy to work.
Rivan
Sojourner
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby Rivan » Mon Dec 31, 2001 9:34 pm

Hey! We can get rid of the exchange rate and we can implement interest and then we can add credit cards... yeah! Hey, i'll take that crown of Surtur, just charge it to my Sojourn3 Gold Card, honest I'm good for it! And then when you forget to pay it off, you start accumulating debt and then the guards come and throw you in jail and then all your creditors get to come and beat you to a pulp.

Isn't this whole post kinda silly? What's the big deal about money? Use your platinum solely for the "trading industry" and use your smaller coins for everything else - buying scrolls, poisons, practicing skills, whatever.

If your reason is the realism of the situation (i.e. why can i go from 1p to 10g but not 10g to 1p), then the banks should only be open 5 days a week from 10-4 and one day a week from 10-12. And you should have to wait in line (i.e. only first person in the room gets to deal with the banker). Yeah! That'd be awesome! Anyone got a quill so I can sign my paycheck from Lord P?

If people can accumulate 15k+ then obviously money isn't that hard to get. I just think there's a lot better things people could whine about changing and get at the top of the discussions listing than the exchange rate from copper to platinum.

Although I just posted and that puts it at the top again *swats self*.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 31, 2001 11:52 pm

agree with more that its tough to imp a cash sink that doesnt adversely affect new and low level players. i dont think we want to make life rougher for newbies.

heres one high end quests could require gobs of plat (a gob would be larger than a horde). green dragon scale armor is what 250 p to create? bit low imo, 5k would really hurt, but be obtainable by most by selling a couple pieces of eq, begging your friends, or farming plat. Erlan could cost like 50k (if you have the patience and friends to get all the forking rares im sure you can come up with the plat). This might depress the cost of eq as high levels make concessions on prices to get what they need (plat).

You might also want to sell eq in a god run shop, prolly top end eq for high prices like a 60 hp 5 ac ring for 30k plat. Youd want to be careful not to devalue the eq by introducing a zone with better eq. Also, im not sure how this would affect evils that primarily award eq with the understanding its generally not to be sold. dunno maybe not such a hot idea.

Maybe you should expand on the tinker bag idea, tinker bag doesnt bring enough value to the table to warrant purchase. Maybe we need new options 2x as big and weightless and 3x the cost, 4x as big and 6x the cost (larger than 4x as big would certainly be unmanageable in terms of lines of spam from look in bag). Would that really hurt anything? gut bag is basically +style, hole is unobtainable and again mostly style, bigger on char storage means nothing when you can have dozens of weightless bags within bags. (if you do sell one, make sure that the location is wellable and shiftable heh, walking aint going to be an option). players will buy them because plat is worthless and managing containers is annoying.

and i take back a statement i made in an earlier post (maybe different thread) that there are no cash sinks. associations are cash sinks dropping close to 40k plat a month id wager atm. You might scale the fee up based on level so a guild of 30 50s might pay 15k a month and a guild of 30 20s would only pay 3k or somethin. Anyhow guilds are good cash sinks, but the sink doesnt have to be as involuntary and devoid of imagination as dues. it could be guild halls, guild badges, ect...
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Tue Jan 01, 2002 12:32 am

Look, I'm sorry. If you're one of the players who doesn't care about money, then you don't really get to complain when it's finally worth something. You, yes even you reading this post, are capable of farming plat on the pirate ship just like everyone else. Lead your own zone group and keep the cash. Lead your own exp group and keep 25% of the gross profits, then split. Sell plats for 12g like I did. Figure out your own way to make money and do it, instead of putting down all the good ideas on this board because you believe deep down that handing out your equipment instead of selling it somehow makes you a better person.

Selling spells does NOT keep the poor man down. If anything, selling spell effects helps people level alts while having no effect on poor newbies. What exactly is the harm in that? That alts are easier to level? That somehow, levelling your ranger with 35 damroll worth of equipment you farmed from your main character is somehow going to get unbalancingly easy if you can buy hastes for 50p?

Money is easy to get. It always has been. If you're one of the players who is sort of apathetic about collecting cash and has no desire to learn how to make money, then I'm sorry, this thread is not for you.

- Ragorn
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jan 01, 2002 7:09 am

Whoa Ragorn, where'd all the venom come from? I never put down the ideas, I just said that those wouldn't necessarily work as the kind of cash sink that some were speaking of. I never said I didn't like the idea of some spells being sold in town. As for my apathy, I suppose I am apathetic for garnering my enjoyment in a different manner.

[This message has been edited by Ashiwi (edited 01-01-2002).]
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Tue Jan 01, 2002 10:46 pm

Sorry, didn't mean to sound venomous. Money is an aspect of the game like eq or exp, albeit before now not a very big aspect. Having things to do with your money doesn't hurt anyone... that's like saying "levelling up is unfair to those people who don't know how or where to get exp."

- Ragorn
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Tue Jan 01, 2002 11:13 pm

green dragonscale is, I believe, 2500p to create.

I don't know if this works out codewise, and again, you have to look at the realism. Mithmesh leggings aren't really in the game now? Why not? Instead of all the plat and hassle of making a set, you could just buy something comparable through a minute or two of sending tells. I would hate to see a lowering of diversity simply because quest costs were upped.

On the other hand, if (this is a random example) you were able to get a twilight from a quest mob for 50k, people might think, hmm, why should I sell my twilight for anything less, and then they would (hopefully) stop selling them for anything less. I'm not sure if this would simply lead to inflation, as people would become plat-crazy, or to more restraint.

PS - I'm impressed that noone took the bait of my earlier post, but, the timing being what it is, I'm guessing you were all too hung over.
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jan 02, 2002 4:17 am

I don't think it's a question of unfair. People were talking about ways to create cash sinks for the mounds of cash floating about. Those who are more inclined to acquire wealth and who have the knowledge and drive to do it, will be the ones who will have it. There's not a thing wrong with that, that's just the way things are. Yes, those of us who aren't could alter the way we play in order to amass more wealth, but that's just not what I enjoy. For that reason I prefer "cash sinks" that are not a requirement for playing, like rental fees would be.

If you're looking for a viable cash sink for hoards of coin, then you need to shoot for the population that has that much cash. The problem that I see with selling spells in town not targeting that population is the fact that those who have that kind of wealth simply idling probably also have optimum sets of gear to drop on their new alts. We can assume that any spells sold in town will not be in scroll or potion form (save the basics already available, such as armor), and won't be a very high level, which means for there to be any useable effect the majority of the fighting is going to have to be in town where the player can run to get spelled up, then run back to the fight. A player with the kind of alt gear the top players have probably won't find most of the spells that could be sold in town really necessary ... if you have -100 AC or better and a hit/dam in the 30's minimum at low levels, or several hundred hps as a level 1 mage, not to mention all the little extras, you can roll through mobs that give max exp in no time without the help of those extra spells. Then add into the equation that a lot of them will be getting leveled outside of the city, or with higher level friends, thus negating the need for those extra spells.

I love the idea of some spells being sold in town, I just don't think it would operate as a viable cash sink for the people with the cash. Perhaps it might work in DK better than WD, a lot of the leveling is done inside of the city there by a good number of the players. Personally, I'd love to see spells like DI, lev, and invis sold in town for CR purposes.

In order to tap extremely deep pockets, you have to appeal to the owner of the pockets in a manner which they feel compelled to respond to, and there's the challenge. Instead of 40 and 50 plat level 20 haste spells, it's going to have to be quests for high plat level 50 haste potions, something that could be done more than once, something not necessary, but something a player with the cash to blow would consider to be a reasonable investment. Would a high level spend 5K for a potion of dragonscales? You'd have to make it expensive and difficult to get, but that's something that could potentially save a major spank, and maybe something which would be worth the effort.

I see a potential cash sink coming up, magic arrows. That'll tap the account of all those rangers out there in a heartbeat if they break or get lost. Rangers have their ranged weapons, rogues will too eventually, plus the other little extras we have to buy. Perhaps other classes need a coin funnel as well?

What about a nicely proccing weapon that has to be recharged? Hmmm, it would have to be better than the ones that are already out there, so it's not likely. There's always the argument for restringing, but I can see how that could get out of hand. If you had it, what would you spend it on? Now think about this, what would you really consider spending 20K on in the game? That's a lump sum, what about 200, 500, 1000 plats a pop? Would I spend 500 p on a vial of three doses of major para poison? Yes, but I'd only be able to buy two...
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jan 02, 2002 4:17 am

Bleah, I don't double post that often, so forgive me for this one. And with that said, whoops on talking cash sinks in an exchange rate thread.

Ashiwi scolds herself, "Bad me, baaaaad."

[This message has been edited by Ashiwi (edited 01-01-2002).]

Return to “S3 Gameplay Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests