Lich

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Todrael
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Lich

Postby Todrael » Wed Nov 07, 2001 4:05 pm

Questions to the Gods to clear up some things for me.

Why do non-human liches live in Bloodstone? I'm a drow. I can't even see there half the time, and it's on the other side of the world from basically every other evil hometown.

Why does ice tomb do hardly any damage? It's worthy of a 6th or 7th circle slot with it's current damage, not 10th.

Why is rot's casting time so long?

-Todrael
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Postby Thrand » Wed Nov 07, 2001 4:52 pm

'Why do non-human liches live in Bloodstone? '

Oh come on its obvious!

I'll explain it so even you can understand!

Chebacca is from Endor. Chebacca is a Wookie.
If Chebacca is from endor and a wookie,
then liches are from Bloodstone! Case closed.
If you still dont see it: LOOK at the monkey!

There i'm sure you understand now!

Ezza/nula
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Postby Ssarra » Wed Nov 07, 2001 5:36 pm

Just so you know, CheWbacca is from Kashyyyk, not Endor. Image
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Postby Guest » Wed Nov 07, 2001 7:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>Questions to the Gods to clear up some things for me.

Why do non-human liches live in Bloodstone? I'm a drow. I can't even see there half the time, and it's on the other side of the world from basically every other evil hometown.

</B>
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not every town wants, or is equipped to teach, liches. When you do the quest, it tells you that you are shunned from your respective societies. The only town in our world that accepts liches and that has a lich willing to teach is Bloodstone. You are an outcast of your societies. Bloodstone is the haven for evil and outcasts. That is why you are there.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
<B>
Why does ice tomb do hardly any damage? It's worthy of a 6th or 7th circle slot with it's current damage, not 10th.

</B>
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The ice tomb damage before we finally found what was causing it to do excessive damage was dropped. Ice tomb isn't a straight damage spell, it has other side effects as well that make it a very viable spell to cast. I will, however, reevaluate it with respects to it's effects and the other spells around it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
<B>
Why is rot's casting time so long?

-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rot's casting time is the same as creeping doom because, effectively, it's the same spell. The spell does incredble amounts of damage over time to the area, which is why the spell has a long casting time.
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Postby Todrael » Wed Nov 07, 2001 7:35 pm

1) I am not outcast from Dobluth Kyor or Hyssk, so the argument that I am outcast from my society is obviously incorrect. I even learned my lich spells in DK.

2) Thank you for looking into ice tomb. It's effect of destroying a fireshield is nearly worthless, as 4/5 of the fireshields encountered in the game are permanent. It's effect of paralyzing a mob are only useful on low level mobs hardly ever encountered in a zone setting (<40) and which can be easily handled by straight damage in even a solo situation.

3) Inferno does a lot more damage than rot, destroys coldshields, has a lower casting time, and has no restrictions on target. I'm not asking to be like invokers. Just pointing out that it's 'incredible amounts of damage' obviously isn't the only real reason.

Thank you for answering.

-Todrael

[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 11-07-2001).]
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Postby Grintor » Wed Nov 07, 2001 9:36 pm

are you sure inferno does more damage than rot or doom?

how many times does rot hit? 3? how much damage per hit?

inferno does how much in it's one blast?

it's prob near even. doom was uber on toril and is a fun spell. i had no idea rot had a shorter cast time than it, but it makes sense that they ahve the same cast time.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Nov 08, 2001 4:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Grintor:
<B>are you sure inferno does more damage than rot or doom?

how many times does rot hit? 3? how much damage per hit?

inferno does how much in it's one blast?

it's prob near even. doom was uber on toril and is a fun spell. i had no idea rot had a shorter cast time than it, but it makes sense that they ahve the same cast time.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he's comparing *lich touch* to inferno with respect to destroying cold/fire shields.

Hm... why couldn't lich touch just be made a badass innate? Give them some more suitable spell with a name that reflects that it is not uber (since apparently it's not intended to be).
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 08, 2001 4:40 pm

If Liches are supposed to be outcast from their respective societies why not make their hometown Vipers Tongue?

Sarvis
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Thu Nov 08, 2001 5:24 pm

If I'm outcast from my society, then I should be outcast from my society. This is one of those silly 'logic' rules you learn about in life, 1=1, etc. I am not outcast from my society (hometown), yet I am outcast from my society? How exactly does that work? And if that lich is the only one capable of training me, then why are others capable of training me?

-Todrael
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Nov 08, 2001 5:30 pm

You do realize you're essentially asking to be outcast from DK and lose the ability to train where you've been training, right?
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Postby Todrael » Thu Nov 08, 2001 5:35 pm

I'm asking for a consistent, logical game world where discontinuity is at a minimum. If they choose to downgrade (outcast me from DK) instead of upgrade (add a Lich guild to DK and Hyssk), then that's their decision.

-Todrael
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Postby moritheil » Thu Nov 08, 2001 6:02 pm

PS - a while back I had some lich fix ideas, that I posted in an Ideas Thread.
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Postby Todrael » Sat Nov 10, 2001 4:22 am

On further review, rot damage/casting time is ok.

Still want to know about hometown though.

-Todrael
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Nov 10, 2001 6:49 am

Urm..

Well, DK and Hyssk will let you come back to visit, but they don't want liches actually living in their cities.

How's that for a solution? Image


------------------
<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Sat Nov 10, 2001 3:11 pm

Shev, don't take this as an offense, but that's definately not a solution to the problem. Maybe it's just the fact that people haven't played a high level ultravision race, but changing a hometown should also take into account game mechanics as well as rp. If the lich in bloodstone is the only one that would teach me, then I would go there once, learn my spells, then stay as far away as possible, not live with the damn guy.

If I'm welcome in DK, then set my hometown there. Bloodstone is not only a 40 minute trek from DK or any other evil hometown, it is also a journey that must be made almost wholly in the daylight.

If we're going by RP, I would never decide to live in a city where I could not see. I can't really stress that enough.

I had thought when the RP messages came from the lich, that what was described would be what happened to me. Well guess what, my sensitive eyes fell out so I expected infravision and being able to see in daylight. This would be perfectly thematic and would actually follow the RP line more closely.

However, if it was a drow who was making the transformation and they decided they would spend most of their time in the Underdark... then it would be perfectly in keeping with RP for them to retain ultravision. But that's not the case.

However you slice it the world doesn't make sense. It isn't logical, and it isn't consistent.

Ask any evil in the game if putting me in Bloodstone is a good idea. Most of my groups tease me and make fun of me over it, pointing out how stupid it all is. Whenever anyone learns it for the first time, they usually have several ?! at the end of their 'WTF'. It doesn't make sense to a single person I've met so far, except you and Kia.

Again, thanks for replying.

-Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Sat Nov 10, 2001 3:18 pm

On a side note, there have been numerous Forgotten Realms novels detailing the fact that Liches in fact do live in drow society, and teach magic to others in that society. A lich guild in DK makes perfect sense. Living in Bloodstone does not.

-Todrael
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Postby Elseenas » Sat Nov 10, 2001 5:43 pm

Todrael is correct that he would never choose to live in a place where he was blind half of the time and there is essentially nothing underground that he could convert into a Doom.

Liches are solitary by nature (at least traditional ones, not getting into the good aligned Elven Liches atm), they wouldn't exactly hang out in each other's company constantly.

If no society would accept them, Viperstongue would make a great deal more sense than Bloodstone--despite that it is in the light (I would argue that DK would accept them, considering we have a lich in the city already who's house hasn't been burned down yet).

This is one of those things that makes perfect sense for races such as Humans, but makes no sense for races such as Drow.

------------------

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Postby Ssryth » Sun Nov 11, 2001 2:53 am

As a yuan-ti, having Bloodstone in hometowns is just wrong - a city full of humans (aka slaves), (a snack during mealtimes) would hardly welcome a yuan-ti as a resident, lich or not. If it is really just an issue of having a functioning guild, that's just the addition of a room and a guildmaster; which is what happened to Bloodstone when liches first went in.

Ssryth
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Postby Zoldren » Sun Nov 11, 2001 10:58 pm

I thought everyone knew liches are ok in dk... even in BG2 liches live w/in the drow city Image
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Postby Dezzex » Sat Jan 19, 2002 7:31 pm

Ok, I don't know if this subject has been 'officially' closed or what, but I am going to bump it, because -- of course -- I have liched recently!

I also do not believe Bloodstone is an appropriate hometown for either drow or yuan-ti liches. I won't reiterate what Tod has already said, but let me give you an impression of my first death experience:

gsay oh #%^@#
who evil gater/squid: None on
time: 5 am
*twibble*twibble*
time: 6 pm
eennenne..etc.
withdraw 50 g
buy key ... I'm sorry we aren't yet open for business!
*twibble*twibble*
buy key ... Thank you come again!
wssess Alas, you cannot go that way
look south: The gate is closed
time
1 am
*twibble*twibble*
time
6 am
The gates from the south are raised.
sss enter portal
uuueeddd ARGH!! TOO MUCH LIGHT!!
*twibble*twibble*
time
6 pm
nenenesnedudusuee
who illithid
tell LoggedOnSquid, 'oh good, well, can you shift me now?'


Image

Logic aside (I'm not saying here that the logic of living in Bloodstone is either correct or incorrect, though I believe it to be incorrect) this has to be seen from a gameplay perspective. Sure it's no problem of convenience when you are zoning and have some means of transport, but I guess I can say goodbye to my late-night exploring expeditions.

I do have one question, because I am no drow expert: Will liches be able to live in Menzo when it comes in?


[This message has been edited by Dezzex (edited 01-19-2002).]
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Postby Caedym » Mon Jan 21, 2002 11:35 pm

I'm not going to sit here and talk about Lichs like I'm some expert/authority that wrote a handbook on them, or even nag the staff about moving Lich's hometowns to/back where they should/could be, (NO I’m not talking about YOU! You’re not THAT special, and even IF I WAS, I’d say your name. Now if you think I’m talking to you right NOW, well you’re imagining all this text), but there is a question, or two, or three, I don't quite grasp. Perhaps someone can help me?

For all intensive purposes, the staff could be telling the truth about Lich's living in Bloodstone, from a certain point of view.

"From a CERTAIN point of view??"

Luke, you're going to find out that a lot of the... uhhh ... wait.. I'm not Obi Wan! Dam it all to HELL!! …Well, where was I? Oh yes! I remember now! It was a question! THE QUESTION! Why do bowling balls only have 3 holes? (Is this some form of bizarre sexual training?) No wait, that’s NOT IT!!! Grrr. …. Ok… Um… OH!! ..The ONE question that really mattered here! (To me anyhow. Hey! Stop reading the stuff in parenthesis!)

Why is a Lich, well really Drow Lich, unable to see in daylight with their Undead Eyes?

If Drow Lich could see in day, I could see one living in Bloodstone.

Too overpowering to give one race both Ultravision and Daylight vision, you say? (Oh wait, you’re not here! I’m talking to myself again.) Is that any worse than restricting the number of hometowns they can ever go back into again? (That’s a rhetorical question. Yes! That means stop trying to answer it because we all know the answer! What we? SILENCE!!)

It is something to think about… kind of like.. If vegetable oil is made from vegetables, what is baby oil made from?

Maybe Drow lich should get daylight vision AND Infravision, but loose Ultravision for becoming a rotting sack of maggots? (I wonder if all Lichs regen at the same rate?.. Oh crap, that’s like asking what is the Meaning of Life to the Monty Python gang.)

Or should all Lich's get both Daylight and Ultravision? As far as I know, Goodie Lich can't go into WD, or can they?

What the hell was I even talking about? (That’s rhetorical too! Shuddap!)

-Caedym Shadowhock –fresh out of the sanitarium!
“If male sorcerers that become undead are called lichs, what are female sorcerers that become undead called?”
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Postby kiryan » Tue Jan 22, 2002 1:50 am

isnt DK the outcast city of the drow? thought someone said thats what doubloth kohlro or whatever meant.
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Postby Teyaha » Tue Jan 22, 2002 2:45 am

caed you crack me up!

i thought i was listening to myself think again.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Jan 22, 2002 5:39 pm

Never seen it spelled 'liche' have you? Image

I think the lich quest even has a part where your eyes rot and you get new sight...

I think a great number of problems could be solved by simply reflagging drow liches infra. Or is the problem that they are coded drow and the code kicks in due to their race flag? You would have to go back to the dayblind code and add a part to check if said PC was lich classed.

PS as undead, liches are OC from 99% of towns, definitely including WD. I don't see this changing.
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Postby Todrael » Tue Jan 22, 2002 5:54 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
Shev, don't take this as an offense, but that's definately not a solution to the problem. Maybe it's just the fact that people haven't played a high level ultravision race, but changing a hometown should also take into account game mechanics as well as rp. If the lich in bloodstone is the only one that would teach me, then I would go there once, learn my spells, then stay as far away as possible, not live with the damn guy.

If I'm welcome in DK, then set my hometown there. Bloodstone is not only a 40 minute trek from DK or any other evil hometown, it is also a journey that must be made almost wholly in the daylight.

If we're going by RP, I would never decide to live in a city where I could not see. I can't really stress that enough.

I had thought when the RP messages came from the lich, that what was described would be what happened to me. Well guess what, my sensitive eyes fell out so I expected infravision and being able to see in daylight. This would be perfectly thematic and would actually follow the RP line more closely.

However, if it was a drow who was making the transformation and they decided they would spend most of their time in the Underdark... then it would be perfectly in keeping with RP for them to retain ultravision. But that's not the case.

However you slice it the world doesn't make sense. It isn't logical, and it isn't consistent.

Ask any evil in the game if putting me in Bloodstone is a good idea. Most of my groups tease me and make fun of me over it, pointing out how stupid it all is. Whenever anyone learns it for the first time, they usually have several ?! at the end of their 'WTF'. It doesn't make sense to a single person I've met so far, except you and Kia.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People seem to be thinking that they read all this in some other thread a long time ago, instead of in this thread just a page up, so I thought I'd bump it to the bottom.

-Todrael
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Postby Ensis » Tue Jan 22, 2002 6:25 pm

How about giving people the bind ability out in certain zones? (granted not in places like jot, brass, etc..) but what if a barb warrior wants to take up residence in waterdeep, or a waterdeep resident wants to live out off the eastern road by the rangers/druids instead?

Maybe Todrael could just live in a little shack that sells burritos outside DK and they don't know its him?

E
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Postby taelin » Tue Jan 22, 2002 10:28 pm

My argument is short and simple. If Human liches get infravision from normal vision then Drow liches should get infravision from ultravision. If vision shouldnt change then make the Human liches cast their infravision spells.

Now that aside, I'll lodge my personal opinion that outdated BS should be removed from our world, as it is an outdated shell of its former God run quest useful self with numerous major flaws that make it not only undesirable in almost every way, but a really bad excuse for a hometown.

If someone really wanted to hear all my reasons and arguments for this rather drastic course of action they need only ask, and start a thread for it.

Sobu
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Postby Vipplin » Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ensis:
<B>How about giving people the bind ability out in certain zones? (granted not in places like jot, brass, etc..) but what if a barb warrior wants to take up residence in waterdeep, or a waterdeep resident wants to live out off the eastern road by the rangers/druids instead?

Maybe Todrael could just live in a little shack that sells burritos outside DK and they don't know its him?

E

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I bet liches could make great burritos.
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Postby cherzra » Wed Jan 23, 2002 2:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by taelin:
<B>

Now that aside, I'll lodge my personal opinion that outdated BS should be removed from our world, as it is an outdated shell of its former God run quest useful self with numerous major flaws that make it not only undesirable in almost every way, but a really bad excuse for a hometown.
Sobu</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What on earth is wrong with BS? Yes, the quests are broken, but for the remainder it is a truly wonderful hometown. There is some eq, you can do xp, but it's dangerous as well. It's nicely written and the layout is different from the standard square town. It was the town I first encountered as a player here (I was an anti) and it intrigued me enough to make me stick around. I like BS!
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Postby Gormal » Wed Jan 23, 2002 6:12 pm

finish guildhall code and todrael will whine no more.
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Postby Todrael » Wed Jan 23, 2002 6:29 pm

1) I don't whine. I give constructive feedback. Try to do the same.

2) Adding guildhalls is not a fix to the perceived problem. It is a possible fix to the situation for a couple particular individuals. The problem still exists.

3) No, I won't stop until the flaw in logic has been corrected and I live in a consistent game world that is as close to an RP-reality as possible. Everyone is striving to make this mud better and more fun and challenging. This 'challenge' does not have to come at the sacrifice of RP, consistency, and plain common sense.

-Todrael
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Jan 23, 2002 9:20 pm

Don't look now, Todrael, but snakes can kick!!

Yayaril
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Postby Todrael » Wed Jan 23, 2002 10:34 pm

< 34h/34H 116v/116V >
< T: Konis TC: excellent E: kobold EC: nasty wounds> kick
You have no legs! How can you kick?

Yuan-ti certainly can't. If you are referring to mobs, it is caused by an incorrect race flag.

-Todrael

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