This morning I signed on and strolled out into Dobluth Kyor, and saw a Red Shape. I was slightly confused at first. I typed scan, and saw more red shapes. Knowing this means I have infravision, I type score, and low and behold, I have lost Ultravision, and gained Infravision. I am now a Drow Lich that can see in the daylight.
Seeing as how my stats and race have remained the same, this appears to be the only unannounced change (would like things like this to be in the news in the future btw). One of the foundations of my previous arguments against me living in Bloodstone was that I could not see there during the daylight. With this statement gone, there is still enough reason to move my hometown back to Dobluth Kyor, but not enough that I actually have to be listened to any further.
I sat down and started to think about whether this was a good or bad thing.
I can't see in the dark any more, but I'm outcast from Gloomhaven so the majority of the Underdark is very difficult for me to access anyways. I can see during the daylight, certainly a wonderful asset for 80%+ of the mud's zones.
My confusion and difficulty comes with the fact that I have spent 115 playing days as one who sees all in the dark, and does not see during the day. My mud-life is structured around a fundamental truth that has reversed itself. Ultravision is considered by some a great asset. Others, a great weakness. It certainly has aspects of both.
After all that, I'm still not sure. Is this a good or bad thing? Anyone else's opinions?
-Todrael
The Light and the Dark
Undead eyes do not respond the way normal eyes do. I'm ignorant of liches, but it just seems to me that with magically enhanced vision, instead of the normally expanding and contracting irises and dependance on rods and cones, that the undead would be able to see equally as well in both light and dark. If we're talking about undead that aren't harmed by the effects of light, that is.
Wow, heh all I can say is if it was me I'd be happy as all hell. Yes, Ultravision has its uses, and in a few places you'll be a bit frustrated you cant tell exactly whats in a room. Looking for portals on smoke got a little more annoying. Even so, you no longer are forced out of so many activities that other race lich/necro could do. The world is so much more open! Think of all the rares and quests that you can do so much faster!
Congratz!
Sobu
Congratz!
Sobu
As I understand it Undead suffer no real penalties from sunlight (cept for maybe shadows & vampires), they are supposed to be the hardest to hide from. Invisibility isn't supposed to work against them, wraithform only allows you to be ignored by them slightly. I say give Liches Ultravision AND allow them to see during the day.
E
E
Hey Shev, you guys consider letting liches have a modified form of ultra/infra, where they see normally regardless of light conditions?
Would be a damned nice benefit of being a lich. Dunno if it would unbalance anything, but considering that there will probably be very few liches around, even after a long time, it may be something to consider.
[This message has been edited by rylan (edited 02-12-2002).]
Would be a damned nice benefit of being a lich. Dunno if it would unbalance anything, but considering that there will probably be very few liches around, even after a long time, it may be something to consider.
[This message has been edited by rylan (edited 02-12-2002).]
(Warning: long)
1) Ultravision is good.
You can see into adjacent rooms inside or underground without those rooms needing to be lit. This is highly advantageous in areas such as Avernus, Demi-plane, or most of the Underdark. You don't need to carry a light with you at all. You can walk past normally aggressive mobs or fight them with greater ease since they are blind in the dark and you are not.
2) Ultravision is bad.
You cannot see anything, period, no exceptions, in a room that has daylight. Equivalent of being power word blind half of the time logged on. Cannot see room exits or name to know where you are. Cannot enter portals. Cannot cast spells on others in the room. Cannot wear/get equip. Cannot mem. Cannot see what is in adjacent, daylight rooms.
3) Drow Lich should have Ultravision.
When one becomes a lich, one does not actually change race, although certain properties of their previous form are altered. This would of course cause Yuan-ti to gain legs, etc. However, when one becomes a lich, several fundamental aspects of the game do change, such as eating, drinking, and aging. These are new additions of course. Previously, only humans could become liches. So, they were given Infravision as an innate ability. Ultravision didn't even exist at the time.
Infravision is a powerful ability, allowing one to see room names, exits, and mobs that give off heat in the room as well as their general size in comparison to you, when you would otherwise be completely blind. This has numerous benefits, of course. This was presumably to set them apart from their 'living' cousins and to grant them a powerful innate in addition to many of the other powerful abilities.
I have often been confused as to several aspects of Undead in Sojourn. At the beginning of the wipe, we still needed to eat, drink, we still aged. That has been changed. We don't need to breathe, a fix that came in later in the wipe. Some weird aspects that still exist are we get poisoned, we show up as a life form or a red shape to others, and undead have infravision. You would think, unable to produce light for themselves for the most part, Undead would be able to see better in the dark than Infravision. Ultravision would be perfect for meeting this need except for the dayblind aspect.. of which only Vampires or the like should truly be affected by.
Ultravision fits a drow lich perfectly for these reasons. The Underdark would be his home still, his power to see in the dark necessary.
4) Drow Lich should have Infravision.
On the other hand, when you become a Lich, physical aspects of your body change. Your eyes fall out, for one. A drow's ultravision is supposedly based on millenia of adaptation to life underground, the eyes becoming accustomed to their surroundings and evolving into a form that meets the needs for survival. A magical transformation that destroyed these eyes and produced a magical form of vision (the pinpoints of light) would ruin that evolution and leave the Drow with the Infravision of all undead.
5) Liches should have a combination of both.
Of course, who's to say what the natural state of sight is for a completely unnatural being? Does a lich have to follow the course of evolution and the life cycle? Quite the opposite; a lich is the absolute destruction of the life cycle, the creation of unlife, the anti-life. Normal rules do not apply. The need for consumption of food and water to produce energy to work muscles and grow body tissue no longer exists. The unlife is sustained by "magic", the only force capable of producing power in this state of being.
As the body does not truly function any more, necessary bodily functions are taken over by the magic aspect of this transformation. This includes movement and the 5 senses. Not all of the 5 senses are necessary. Which of these would be reproduced by magic is probably specific to the process, but some assumptions can be made.
The sense of taste would be mostly useless, as the undead cannot process food. Touch is necessary for coordinating the movements of the body, manipulating objects, and being aware of ones environment. Smell might or might not be used, but that is not an aspect of Sojourn. Hearing would be necessary for communication if nothing else. Sight would be absolutely necessary, or interacting with the environment would be almost impossible.
This sight would be driven by magic. When liches were first introduced to Sojourn, the only 'magical' form of sight was Infravision. Now there is Ultravision as well. An undead being would not be limited by their biology in regards to sight. An undead being could use its sight in several different ways.
There could be a magical mechanism by which it always uses the best possible vision for the situation, IE normal/infravision when around bright light sources, and Ultravision when no bright light is available. Or it could have some altered form of Ultravision, that automatically corrects for bright light. Really, what is "bright", but an opinion? How bright does it have to be before it's "too bright"?
An undead would most probably be able to see under all light conditions equally well.
How would this affect game balance, though? A very small population of Undead in the world would be able to see both during the day and in the dark. Their vision would be better than anyone elses. This would not assist evil raced groups in any way. They are always composed of at least some Ultra and some Infra races. It would assist good raced groups immensely, being their only access to scanning in places like Avernus. It would also assist the soloing of the individuals, virtually none to yuan/human, but quite a bit to drow. The population of Liches is of course very small, so the effects of this on the game world would be minimal until such future time as a lich is considered 'common'.
In conclusion, do whatever you feel like, I'll learn to work with it just as I always have. Of course, who in their right mind wouldn't want all the power they could get away with, so I wouldn't be too terribly upset if you let us see in all light
-Todrael
1) Ultravision is good.
You can see into adjacent rooms inside or underground without those rooms needing to be lit. This is highly advantageous in areas such as Avernus, Demi-plane, or most of the Underdark. You don't need to carry a light with you at all. You can walk past normally aggressive mobs or fight them with greater ease since they are blind in the dark and you are not.
2) Ultravision is bad.
You cannot see anything, period, no exceptions, in a room that has daylight. Equivalent of being power word blind half of the time logged on. Cannot see room exits or name to know where you are. Cannot enter portals. Cannot cast spells on others in the room. Cannot wear/get equip. Cannot mem. Cannot see what is in adjacent, daylight rooms.
3) Drow Lich should have Ultravision.
When one becomes a lich, one does not actually change race, although certain properties of their previous form are altered. This would of course cause Yuan-ti to gain legs, etc. However, when one becomes a lich, several fundamental aspects of the game do change, such as eating, drinking, and aging. These are new additions of course. Previously, only humans could become liches. So, they were given Infravision as an innate ability. Ultravision didn't even exist at the time.
Infravision is a powerful ability, allowing one to see room names, exits, and mobs that give off heat in the room as well as their general size in comparison to you, when you would otherwise be completely blind. This has numerous benefits, of course. This was presumably to set them apart from their 'living' cousins and to grant them a powerful innate in addition to many of the other powerful abilities.
I have often been confused as to several aspects of Undead in Sojourn. At the beginning of the wipe, we still needed to eat, drink, we still aged. That has been changed. We don't need to breathe, a fix that came in later in the wipe. Some weird aspects that still exist are we get poisoned, we show up as a life form or a red shape to others, and undead have infravision. You would think, unable to produce light for themselves for the most part, Undead would be able to see better in the dark than Infravision. Ultravision would be perfect for meeting this need except for the dayblind aspect.. of which only Vampires or the like should truly be affected by.
Ultravision fits a drow lich perfectly for these reasons. The Underdark would be his home still, his power to see in the dark necessary.
4) Drow Lich should have Infravision.
On the other hand, when you become a Lich, physical aspects of your body change. Your eyes fall out, for one. A drow's ultravision is supposedly based on millenia of adaptation to life underground, the eyes becoming accustomed to their surroundings and evolving into a form that meets the needs for survival. A magical transformation that destroyed these eyes and produced a magical form of vision (the pinpoints of light) would ruin that evolution and leave the Drow with the Infravision of all undead.
5) Liches should have a combination of both.
Of course, who's to say what the natural state of sight is for a completely unnatural being? Does a lich have to follow the course of evolution and the life cycle? Quite the opposite; a lich is the absolute destruction of the life cycle, the creation of unlife, the anti-life. Normal rules do not apply. The need for consumption of food and water to produce energy to work muscles and grow body tissue no longer exists. The unlife is sustained by "magic", the only force capable of producing power in this state of being.
As the body does not truly function any more, necessary bodily functions are taken over by the magic aspect of this transformation. This includes movement and the 5 senses. Not all of the 5 senses are necessary. Which of these would be reproduced by magic is probably specific to the process, but some assumptions can be made.
The sense of taste would be mostly useless, as the undead cannot process food. Touch is necessary for coordinating the movements of the body, manipulating objects, and being aware of ones environment. Smell might or might not be used, but that is not an aspect of Sojourn. Hearing would be necessary for communication if nothing else. Sight would be absolutely necessary, or interacting with the environment would be almost impossible.
This sight would be driven by magic. When liches were first introduced to Sojourn, the only 'magical' form of sight was Infravision. Now there is Ultravision as well. An undead being would not be limited by their biology in regards to sight. An undead being could use its sight in several different ways.
There could be a magical mechanism by which it always uses the best possible vision for the situation, IE normal/infravision when around bright light sources, and Ultravision when no bright light is available. Or it could have some altered form of Ultravision, that automatically corrects for bright light. Really, what is "bright", but an opinion? How bright does it have to be before it's "too bright"?
An undead would most probably be able to see under all light conditions equally well.
How would this affect game balance, though? A very small population of Undead in the world would be able to see both during the day and in the dark. Their vision would be better than anyone elses. This would not assist evil raced groups in any way. They are always composed of at least some Ultra and some Infra races. It would assist good raced groups immensely, being their only access to scanning in places like Avernus. It would also assist the soloing of the individuals, virtually none to yuan/human, but quite a bit to drow. The population of Liches is of course very small, so the effects of this on the game world would be minimal until such future time as a lich is considered 'common'.
In conclusion, do whatever you feel like, I'll learn to work with it just as I always have. Of course, who in their right mind wouldn't want all the power they could get away with, so I wouldn't be too terribly upset if you let us see in all light
-Todrael
I'm not sure, but isn't there an ultravision spell? If so, seeing in daylight is best of the best... if you can cast ultravision. Depending on where you spend most of your time, that should decide whether or not it's a good thing. Personally, I think liches, being very very powerful and magical undead creatures, should have the ability to see in any light. IMHO.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galkar:
I'm not sure, but isn't there an ultravision spell? If so, seeing in daylight is best of the best... if you can cast ultravision. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Infra spell. No ultra spell.
I'm not sure, but isn't there an ultravision spell? If so, seeing in daylight is best of the best... if you can cast ultravision. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Infra spell. No ultra spell.
-
Galok Icewolf
- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
I always thought that the smarter versions of undead just had a preternatural awareness of their surroundings that wasn't based on sight or hearing or any of the senses that humans know. Something like the sonar of bats, but with much more detail. I always thought those undead that fed on life energies could also sense those energies nearby.
Yayaril
Yayaril
Actually Tod....when Liches were put in, Duergars and Illithids were in the game, I believe Yuan-ti might have been, as well. But, Yuan-ti necros have no ultravision to begin with, and duergars and illithids don't have necros. So of course the only liches in the game were humans at that time.
I totally agree with the idea of liches having several cones of vision. If their entire means of "living as dead" is magic-based, you'd think they could see EVERYTHING.
Invisible, magic, infra, ultra, daylight, magical darkness, through objects, even sensing life around. I don't have my books here so I can't check this to verify it...trying to remember all the bonuses liches had is tough when you haven't gamed in years.
But I don't think making liches having these innates is totally absurd...just simply gives them the benefits of the spells.
Perma DI, DM, farsee, sense life, infravision, ultravision, daylight vision, vision in magical darkness. Farfetched? Let me know Shevy....
Deathmagnet
I totally agree with the idea of liches having several cones of vision. If their entire means of "living as dead" is magic-based, you'd think they could see EVERYTHING.
Invisible, magic, infra, ultra, daylight, magical darkness, through objects, even sensing life around. I don't have my books here so I can't check this to verify it...trying to remember all the bonuses liches had is tough when you haven't gamed in years.
But I don't think making liches having these innates is totally absurd...just simply gives them the benefits of the spells.
Perma DI, DM, farsee, sense life, infravision, ultravision, daylight vision, vision in magical darkness. Farfetched? Let me know Shevy....
Deathmagnet
Infra or Ultra, or Both?
There are in depth AD&D/D&D sources discussing the Lich in great detail, but in order to keep on track with this threads discussion, I will only mention those that deal with eyesight.
Note the differences between 2nd edition’s view of undead sight and 3rd’s.
According to the Monster Manual of 2nd Edition Rules, Under the Entry for Lich Page 222:
“The lich can see in with normal vision in even the darkest of environments but is unaffected by even the brightest light.”
According to the AD&D Van Richten’s Monster Hunter’s Compendium Vol.2 Page115
(Note that This material is meant for the Ravenloft Campaign setting, but it clearly states in the opening introduction it can be used for any of the Realms settings.)
“I surmise that the visual spectrum of the lich is not dependent upon light itself. Rahter, its connection with negative energy allows it to somehow perceive the very presence and location of material objects and beings, situated in a dimension phyiscally and diametrically opposed to its own frame of reference.
* A lich can see with normal vision in even the darkest of environments, but it is unaffected by the brightest light, even by the magical LIGHT cast upon its eye sockets.”
(They hold true to the monster manual here, with an almost complete restatement.)
According to the Monster Manual of 3rd Edition Rules, where Lich’s are treated as ‘a template that can be added to any humanoid creature’
Under the Entry for Lich Page 216:
“A lich retains all the character’s special qualities and those listed below, and also gains the undead type (see page 6).
Under the Entry for Undead on Page 6:
“Most undead have darkvision with a range of 60 feet.”
What is Darkvision? According to the Dungeon Masters Guide 3rd Edition Rules (page 74):
“Tordek looks around a lightless cavern. He sees the chamber as a shadowless scene in black and white, fading into an indistinct gray 60 feet away. Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, to a range specified for the creature.
Darkvision is black and white only.
Darkvision does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise –invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally.
The presence of light does not spoil darkvision. If a character has darkvision with a 60-foot range, and he stands within a 30-foot radius of light, the character can see normally in the light, and 30 feet beyond the light because of his darkvision.
(Note: They include a picture of an Illithid in light on page 74, and then on page 75 they show how it looks in darkvision. It’s like they say, just black and white, with very little gray tossed in. In my opinion, I doubt someone could read a book using this vision from looking at this example.)
The only source I have on Ultravision, is from the Novel ‘Homeland’ by R.A. Salvatore, Page 5
“He had no light to guide him, but he needed none. He was a dark elf, a drow, an ebon-skinned cousin of those sylvan folk who danced under the stars on the worlds surface. To Dinin’s superior eyes, which translated subtle variations of heat into vivid and colorful images, the Underdark was far from a lightless place. Colors all across the spectrum swirled before him in the stone of the walls, and the floor, heated by some distant fissure or hot stream. The head of living things was the most distinctive, letting the dark elf view his enemies in details as intricate as any surface dweller would find in brilliant daylight.”
I believe the staff would be substantiated either by 2nd or 3rd edition rules, in terms of consideration for the MUD, to give all lich’s, regardless of previous race, both Infravision and Ultravision. It’s obvious that Darkvision does not equal Ultravision, but in terms of code for the MUD, there would be no realistically accurate way of creating a difference between the two that would be worth the effort and time put into it.
The books are all for it.
The players want it.
It wouldn't unbalance anything.
Hell, why not?
-Caedym Shadowhock - Nightmare Bard of Oghma
There are in depth AD&D/D&D sources discussing the Lich in great detail, but in order to keep on track with this threads discussion, I will only mention those that deal with eyesight.
Note the differences between 2nd edition’s view of undead sight and 3rd’s.
According to the Monster Manual of 2nd Edition Rules, Under the Entry for Lich Page 222:
“The lich can see in with normal vision in even the darkest of environments but is unaffected by even the brightest light.”
According to the AD&D Van Richten’s Monster Hunter’s Compendium Vol.2 Page115
(Note that This material is meant for the Ravenloft Campaign setting, but it clearly states in the opening introduction it can be used for any of the Realms settings.)
“I surmise that the visual spectrum of the lich is not dependent upon light itself. Rahter, its connection with negative energy allows it to somehow perceive the very presence and location of material objects and beings, situated in a dimension phyiscally and diametrically opposed to its own frame of reference.
* A lich can see with normal vision in even the darkest of environments, but it is unaffected by the brightest light, even by the magical LIGHT cast upon its eye sockets.”
(They hold true to the monster manual here, with an almost complete restatement.)
According to the Monster Manual of 3rd Edition Rules, where Lich’s are treated as ‘a template that can be added to any humanoid creature’
Under the Entry for Lich Page 216:
“A lich retains all the character’s special qualities and those listed below, and also gains the undead type (see page 6).
Under the Entry for Undead on Page 6:
“Most undead have darkvision with a range of 60 feet.”
What is Darkvision? According to the Dungeon Masters Guide 3rd Edition Rules (page 74):
“Tordek looks around a lightless cavern. He sees the chamber as a shadowless scene in black and white, fading into an indistinct gray 60 feet away. Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, to a range specified for the creature.
Darkvision is black and white only.
Darkvision does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise –invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally.
The presence of light does not spoil darkvision. If a character has darkvision with a 60-foot range, and he stands within a 30-foot radius of light, the character can see normally in the light, and 30 feet beyond the light because of his darkvision.
(Note: They include a picture of an Illithid in light on page 74, and then on page 75 they show how it looks in darkvision. It’s like they say, just black and white, with very little gray tossed in. In my opinion, I doubt someone could read a book using this vision from looking at this example.)
The only source I have on Ultravision, is from the Novel ‘Homeland’ by R.A. Salvatore, Page 5
“He had no light to guide him, but he needed none. He was a dark elf, a drow, an ebon-skinned cousin of those sylvan folk who danced under the stars on the worlds surface. To Dinin’s superior eyes, which translated subtle variations of heat into vivid and colorful images, the Underdark was far from a lightless place. Colors all across the spectrum swirled before him in the stone of the walls, and the floor, heated by some distant fissure or hot stream. The head of living things was the most distinctive, letting the dark elf view his enemies in details as intricate as any surface dweller would find in brilliant daylight.”
I believe the staff would be substantiated either by 2nd or 3rd edition rules, in terms of consideration for the MUD, to give all lich’s, regardless of previous race, both Infravision and Ultravision. It’s obvious that Darkvision does not equal Ultravision, but in terms of code for the MUD, there would be no realistically accurate way of creating a difference between the two that would be worth the effort and time put into it.
The books are all for it.
The players want it.
It wouldn't unbalance anything.
Hell, why not?
-Caedym Shadowhock - Nightmare Bard of Oghma
Just like to add something here. I believe Ultravision/Darkvision should allow players to see mobiles and objects in the rooms, and the room descriptions themselves.
I do not believe mages with ultra/darkvision should be able to scribe in these vision modes tho. There are examples of stories from authors telling how drow use candles to scribe, and how lichs research their magic as well in rooms with light.
I must confess, I prefer the image of a lich surrounded by scrolls and ancient looking burning candles that never actually burn down, do to enchantments, over one studying in the dark.
Note, I'm ONLY talking about scribing spells, not memorization. I think it's safe to say that drow wizards and lich's would have learned to use a magical type of ink on their own spellbooks, it's just their sources that might not of had it, aka scribing.
I do not believe mages with ultra/darkvision should be able to scribe in these vision modes tho. There are examples of stories from authors telling how drow use candles to scribe, and how lichs research their magic as well in rooms with light.
I must confess, I prefer the image of a lich surrounded by scrolls and ancient looking burning candles that never actually burn down, do to enchantments, over one studying in the dark.
Note, I'm ONLY talking about scribing spells, not memorization. I think it's safe to say that drow wizards and lich's would have learned to use a magical type of ink on their own spellbooks, it's just their sources that might not of had it, aka scribing.
Thanks Caedym -- I had a feeling liches "worked" something like that but had no materials to cite.
The Gods of course are not compelled to fulfill these precise definitions, but what you suggest makes more sense than liches who possess only ultravision or only infravision. I'm dead, I don't even have eyeballs, and so it seems odd to require light to enter my empty, mostly bony sockets to see, and odder still for too much light to cause me blindness.
The Gods of course are not compelled to fulfill these precise definitions, but what you suggest makes more sense than liches who possess only ultravision or only infravision. I'm dead, I don't even have eyeballs, and so it seems odd to require light to enter my empty, mostly bony sockets to see, and odder still for too much light to cause me blindness.
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