A question about Grey Elves versus Gnomes

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

A question about Grey Elves versus Gnomes

Postby Malacar » Tue Jun 11, 2002 4:38 pm

Ok, I will stand up and say my information might be incorrect, and if it is, please don't hop all over me for it. I am fairly sure it is correct, but if not.. Educate me.

That said... Gnomes have a con notch over elves. Elves have an Int notch over gnomes. The Int notch is a truly moot point at 50th however, as the mem scales are identical.

I would like to know why this is. Basically, it makes playing an elf almost pointless, except from a role-play aspect. Gnomes in the D&D sense, aren't the most intelligent. They get bonuses to con, and penalties to strength. While grey elves get penalties to con and bonuses to int.

There's a huge difference to a mage class with 50 hit points.

I guess this isn't really a whine, it's just my being curious why the memtimes are the same at high levels and different at lower... I would think the extra con notch should balance it out.

Comments?

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Lirathal
Sojourner
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2001 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby Lirathal » Tue Jun 11, 2002 4:46 pm

I'd really like to know about aging and HP. My 180 year old elf just lost 1hp, and 1mv. I petitioned and Kia said Happy Birthday. If elves live to be 600, why am I losing hp when I'm not 1/3 of the way through my life span! Hell I haven't even gotten to my prom! :P

Anyone else noticed this or is it just localized to grey elf invokers.

(sorry Malacar, isn't the same topic, but it's kind of the same question Image)
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Tue Jun 11, 2002 4:50 pm

Malacar is 220, and still gaining hit points.

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Todrael
Sojourner
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: MI, USA
Contact:

Postby Todrael » Tue Jun 11, 2002 5:38 pm

Having recently done some studies on races, I would like to clarify some information for the purposes of this thread. (as a side note, the prime age for elves is 245, as you start losing hps at around 250).

Gnomes have the same hitpoints as humans.
Gnomes have the same mem times as grey elves.

Hope that clears up any confusion.

------------------
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Hyldryn
Sojourner
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Maryland

Postby Hyldryn » Tue Jun 11, 2002 6:01 pm

Elves have an agility and strength notch over gnomes. Probably, (even tho it doesn't matter) a couple wisdom and charisma notches.

Thats gotta make some difference right?
Treladian
Sojourner
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Treladian » Tue Jun 11, 2002 6:05 pm

Gnomes seem to have TWO con notches over greys, but I don't know if that affects mage classes. All I know is that gnome warriors have around the same natural hp as I do.

Elves have no wisdom bonus. It's a common misconception. Only dwarves do I believe. Of course, the higher int probably results in slightly better meditates so it can seem like elf priests mem faster. Gnomes get a penalty to wisdom, not sure how big of one.

As Hyld said, elves have one agility notch over gnomes, about 6 ac worth IIRC. As a side note, trolls have the same agility as gnomes.

Nothing I can add on about the difference in strength, I've never rolled up characters to test it.

Gnomes get a penalty to charisma while elves get a bonus. And we all know how much effect charisma has for most classes Image

Yeah, elf stat bonuses are really messed up. They don't excel at anything compared to other goodie races (drow don't have to deal with gnomes, only yuan-ti, so they're in a very different situation balance-wise) except possibly bards Image

------------------
You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.

[This message has been edited by Treladian (edited 06-11-2002).]
Todrael
Sojourner
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: MI, USA
Contact:

Postby Todrael » Tue Jun 11, 2002 6:59 pm

1) Gnomes are one wisdom notch behind elves.
2) Treladian: I just got done saying gnomes have the same hps as humans. Fact.
3) Dwarves do not have a wisdom bonus.
4) You are correct about the agility notches, but failed to mention that the extra notch for elves is somewhere around 98+.
5) Gnomes are one strength notch behind elves.

If anyone else feels like posting, please don't post rumors and misinformation. Know what you're talking about.

------------------
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Tue Jun 11, 2002 7:00 pm

Malacar, in Dungeons and Dragons, 2nd edition and 3rd edition, Elves gained a bonus to dexterity and a minus to constitution. They were quick, but frail.

------------------
-Yayaril
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Tue Jun 11, 2002 8:10 pm

Yayaril, in any edition grey elves always got a bonus to intelligence and a minus to con.

You're thinking high elves.

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Jun 11, 2002 9:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>Yayaril, in any edition grey elves always got a bonus to intelligence and a minus to con.

You're thinking high elves.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They didn't always break it down into different types of elves, though.
Bipple
Sojourner
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Bipple » Tue Jun 11, 2002 11:43 pm

Dwarves don't have an initial wisdom bonus but they do notch at 102.. anyone know when/if elves get a bonus? They also get 2 or 3 con notches over elves and decent str bonus. Their agility sucks but that doesn't make that big a difference at 50.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:20 am

agility is a prime stat imo for all classes.

plat is worthless = charisma pointless = races that have good charisma don't feel like they have anything special. kinda like rangers and di/sense life/invis/ect...

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-11-2002).]
Kerath
Sojourner
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Postby Kerath » Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>plat is worthless = charisma pointless = races that have good charisma don't feel like they have anything special. kinda like rangers and di/sense life/invis/ect...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Typical point of view of a high-level, established player. It's true, once you've been around for a while, platinum basically loses all its meaning, except to pay for the odd prac (not really necessary in the upper levels) and association fees, if you're in one.

However, for a little newbie that's just getting started, platinum is far from worthless. Newbies actually require the coins to practice, to buy gear from the store (not a bad place to find stuff, since it's tough to get any sort of gear at an early level unless it's handed to you), and possibly to enter the buy and sell market to pick up a few pieces of gear that way.

Note that I'm not saying you need spanky gear to level. I played a drow enchanter right after the wipe, and had lots of fun fighting satyrs in Mir forest with no +hp, lousy ac, and red-steel flail, fleeing at -2 hp 'cause of spellcast lag. But, in today's MUD where half or more of the little guys running around are stacked alts, newbies have to compete for groups somehow.

Of course, I doubt this is a reason to try and roll perfect cha, even if you are a complete newbie. :P
gnerble
Sojourner
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:01 am
Location: San Diego, CA, USA

Postby gnerble » Wed Jun 12, 2002 3:00 am

Hahaha you called Kiryan a high level established player

------------------
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Wed Jun 12, 2002 3:24 am

True Iyachtu, but ever since Greyhawk was fleshed out, Grey's have been pretty stapled as the 'intelligent' elven race.

In for forgotten realms, though... If we wanna get technical, which I always love to do with D&D since it's my primary hobby(sad, huh?)...

There is no such thing as grey or high elves. Grey elves are called sun elves, and high elves are moon elves.

Conversely, there is no such thing as a mountain or hill dwarf. Mountain dwarves are shield dwarves, and hill dwarves are gold dwarves.

I believe unearthed arcana, circa 1985, was the first real firm entries of grey elves, wild elves(grugach), drow, duergar, and svirfneblin. They may have been mentioned in numerous gazeteers, modules, and dragon magazines prior to that, but this was the first actual sourcebook that contained them I think.

Semantics, I know.. But I guess they are more important to me than others. Image



------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Wed Jun 12, 2002 5:40 am

I didn't know there were so many elf types. I thought there were grey elves and aquatic elves... oh yeah, those wild kind, too. I never bought any of the supplimental books in 2nd edition, like the elf one. Thus there was just 'elf' and it gained +1 bonus to dexterity, and a -1 penalty to constitution. In third edition, again, there is just 'elf' in the players handbook, and it gets +2 bonus to dexterity and -2 penalty to constitution (Similar to 2nd edition). So if added suppliments split them into different subspecies and gave them different modifiers, I was unaware.

------------------
-Yayaril
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Wed Jun 12, 2002 6:44 am

No prob.. I thought you were kidding. Didn't mean it to sound mean mang. Image

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Sarell
Sojourner
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: brisbane, australia

Postby Sarell » Wed Jun 12, 2002 7:54 am

ROFL gnerble!!!

Were not gnomes intelligence lowered a few years back to bring them into line with elves a little? They used to be even better memmers I think? *shrug* Elves are sexy remember Mal!
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 12, 2002 3:17 pm

why should ever race/class combo be equal? viable even...

as for elves, how could you make them more viable without decreasing what sets them apart? shall we give them human hps elf agi elf charisma elf dex? small hps is a defining feature of elves. lets think of other ways to "balance" them if its truly needed.

and is adjusting their stats the best way? since most elves tend to play due to rp imo, id suggest more elf only eq and quests to truly make them happy. thats what they want anyhow, to be special, to be elf. gnomes and humans are after powergame hps or int, same with dwarves barbs ect...

and really is there a problem in the high end game, cuz i see drow mages walking around with 750-820 eq'd hps and id assume they have the same con notch as greys. pretty hard to kill an 1k pc of any class short of a spank.
Galkar
Sojourner
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Providence, RI

Postby Galkar » Wed Jun 12, 2002 4:14 pm

I read Evermeet, though a long long time ago, and I could have SWORN that Gold Elves were considered the High Elves, Moon Elves were considered the Grey Elves, and Wild Elves were, well, Wild Elves. Someone clarify, cuz I'm at work and Malacar confused the hell outta me, lol.

------------------
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jun 12, 2002 4:35 pm

Last time I read that book, that's the way it worked. Forgotten Realms is a world all its own with several differences from the basic D&D (expanded, non-expanded, 1-135th editions, or however you want to look at it)>
Galkar
Sojourner
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Providence, RI

Postby Galkar » Wed Jun 12, 2002 5:53 pm

Right, just that Malacar said something different as far as FR elves were concerned. Anywho, thanks.

------------------
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jun 12, 2002 5:59 pm

I remember something about Moon elves being referred to as "grey" elves by the High elves (gold elves), which in the elven tongue was a dire insult.
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Wed Jun 12, 2002 6:30 pm

There's no such thing as gold elves.

There's gold dwarves.

Moon elves are high elves, Sun elves are Grey elves. Got the book right in front of me. Image

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jun 12, 2002 6:52 pm

Which book?
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Wed Jun 12, 2002 7:08 pm

Evermeet and 3rd edition FR campaign book.

I have the first and 2nd edition stuff in the other room though, if you'd like me to triplecheck. Image

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Wed Jun 12, 2002 7:12 pm

Ok, I see the problem... They simplified it in 3rd edition. My bad! Sorry guys. Image

Silver = Moon
Gold = Sun

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 06-12-2002).]
Treladian
Sojourner
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Treladian » Wed Jun 12, 2002 7:50 pm

Sematics wise in FR, Moon elf = silver elf = grey elf. Mechanics wise, they all equal high elf, aka the default elf. Likewise, Sun elf = gold elf = high elf while mechanically they correspond to grey elves in other worlds. Moon elf and sun elf are the most common ways of refering to the subraces, silver and gold used less often, and grey and high elf used as insults between the two. I've never been able to tell which "grey elf" elves here were supposed to correspond to Image The 3rd edition FR book only uses the terms moon and sun elves, probably to avoid confusion. The terms appeared in the snippet about FR in the book of elves in 2nd edition, possibly 2nd edition FR too.

Additionally, wood elf = sylvan elf = green elf. Wild/grugach elves are something else entirely and not supposed to have existed in the realms, but due to some editing stupidities on some 2nd edition products, wild elves showed up in FR and were grandfathered into 3rd edition FR since the editors thought it would be less confusing that way. There are two or three subraces of aquatic elves that correspond to what body of water the originate from, but there are no statistical differences between them. And then of course you've got the drow, which were originally another subrace of elves called the Illithyri before they turned to Lloth worship en masse.

------------------
You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Wed Jun 12, 2002 7:54 pm

No, you're wrong Trel.

If you want, I can IM any of you the sourcebooks that say that Moon elves are high elves with standard abilities from the players handbook.

Likewise, it also says that Sun elves get +2 intelligence, and -2 constitution. In older editions, it was +1/-1, but in 3rd it went up for reasons due to system.

Grey elves have, and for 17 years, gotten the +int modifier, not standard elves(high elves). Wild elves and wood elves got str mods or weird stuff, but I usually outlaw those in my games, because they are so twinky it hurts.

[Addendum: You can originally find out where grey elves come from, from OLD greyhawk books. But check unearthed arcana for the first official sourcebook where they are labeled grey.]

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 06-12-2002).]
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jun 12, 2002 8:10 pm

I will stand resolute by the idea that high elves = gold elves and grey elves = moon elves in the book "Evermeet." I read that book a second time just to answer that question, had to read the WHOLE thing just to be sure, and it's in there. I am not a D&D player and haven't been since I was a kid, so I'm pretty clueless when it comes to that. I just needed to make sure I understood the differences between the elven races as the FR world saw it for a zone I did.
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Wed Jun 12, 2002 8:13 pm

You'd be very wrong if you stood resolute by that Ashiwi... I can assure you of that. Image

Bot gonna sit here and argue with you guys tho... I been running for 18 years. I have all the books. I know for a fact high are moon and sun are grey, but you do what ya need to. Image

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Galkar
Sojourner
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Providence, RI

Postby Galkar » Wed Jun 12, 2002 8:43 pm

Mal, I think this is the problem. You're talking D&D, gaming, DM'ing, etc. Me and Ashiwi are talking about an FR novel that recounts the history of the elves of Faerun. Therein might lie the problem, as the two may differ. I will check when I get home, but I'm sure that in the novel, moon elves were the grey's, and gold elves were the high's. Kinda makes sense like that to me, moon elves had a grayer skin in the novel with darker, silverish hair colors, while the skin of the gold/high elves was more golden brown with lighter, more golden hair colors.

Anyways, I no longer dispute you Mal, just want to see if there is a difference between the novel and the character books.

------------------
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jun 12, 2002 8:46 pm

Well I kind of thought I made that point clear...
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Wed Jun 12, 2002 8:50 pm

Here's the poop.. It's easy. The names the way I listed them, and the way everyone listed them are correct.

My arguement was simply from a stat perspective. Their physical descriptions are reversed. Their names are reversed. Sun elves are the stereotypical grey elves, minus the description. Moon elves are the stereotypical high elves, minus the description. If you took the body of one, and swapped it with another, we'd all be right as long as the attitudes and build(not coloring, etc) were kept the same.

Fair enough?

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 06-12-2002).]
Calinth
Sojourner
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Calinth » Wed Jun 12, 2002 8:55 pm

No, the problem is I don't think Malacar's looked at any of the FR specific stuff. I've got my 2nd ed. complete book of elves in front of me, and the section on elves in Faerun isn't exactly easy to follow. But basically it has gold elves called high elves and sunrise elves, but says their stats are those of standard grey elves. Silver elves are called moon elves or grey elves, but stats are those of high elves.

I guess someone just wanted to confuse people, either that or wasn't paying attention at one point, and TSR just went with it.

Cal



------------------
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Wed Jun 12, 2002 8:57 pm

*roll*

Please get back on topic. Calinth, if you wanna discuss what books I did or didnt look at, look me up on mud. Image

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Wed Jun 12, 2002 9:14 pm

Good thing this mud isn't trying to be a perfect simulacrum of D&D. In the world of Sojourn3, elves have similar intellect to gnomes. They have disadvantages over elves- they aren't as dextrous, agile, charismatic, or strong. Elves have disadvantages over gnomes- they aren't as hearty. Seems elves got the longer end of the stick on this one.

------------------
-Yayaril
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Wed Jun 12, 2002 9:16 pm

Yeah, I think I had misinformation when I started it(but I did state that my info might not be right!).

I was under the impression grey's had a notch over gnomes for int. Apparently not. Image

I think that evens it out in the longrun.

Never thought I would say this, but... Thanks for the ontopic post, Yayaril. Image

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Izizimmez
Sojourner
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 5:01 am
Location: MO, USA

Postby Izizimmez » Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:28 am

This thread is boring.

------------------
Tog Vicious
Treladian
Sojourner
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Treladian » Thu Jun 13, 2002 7:00 pm

"Moon elf = silver elf = grey elf. Mechanics wise, they all equal high elf"

"If you want, I can IM any of you the sourcebooks that say that Moon elves are high elves with standard abilities from the players handbook."

Umm Mal, that's exactly what I said. I just refered to the standard elf as high elf because that's what type of elf the standard elf is and didn't use the word stat since there are more than just stat bonuses that come with race. I do think this thread this explains why they only used the descriptors of moon and sun elf to refer to each elf respectively in the 3rd edition FR book though. Far too many semantics issues and confusion. Too bad they didn't anticipate what happens when you mixed in older source material.

------------------
You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
Izizimmez
Sojourner
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 5:01 am
Location: MO, USA

Postby Izizimmez » Thu Jun 13, 2002 7:14 pm

MAYBE these are Sojourn elves!!! They are how they are yo.

------------------
Tog Vicious
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Thu Jun 13, 2002 7:40 pm

Dear god, someone please delete this thread, nobody is reading posts anymore anyways. Image

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 06-13-2002).]
Selias
Sojourner
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Wilmington, DE USA
Contact:

Postby Selias » Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:10 am

Ok back on topic... maybe a solution to distinguish grey elves over gnomes would be to UP their racial int. Since elves are the smartest anyway it's not like it'll pull much more out of balace, but it will give us elves at least some sort of reason to play an elf and not a human/gnome.

and as a response kiryan, not every class/race combo needs to be viable, but when a race is totally worthless for all classes, then something needs to be done. As it stands, there is not a single class that grey elves excel in, and that's wrong.

and for christ's sake don't you dare fucking say "remove elves" as a response to that problem. god I hate you already for saying it.

Return to “S3 Gameplay Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests