A question about Grey Elves versus Gnomes
A question about Grey Elves versus Gnomes
Ok, I will stand up and say my information might be incorrect, and if it is, please don't hop all over me for it. I am fairly sure it is correct, but if not.. Educate me.
That said... Gnomes have a con notch over elves. Elves have an Int notch over gnomes. The Int notch is a truly moot point at 50th however, as the mem scales are identical.
I would like to know why this is. Basically, it makes playing an elf almost pointless, except from a role-play aspect. Gnomes in the D&D sense, aren't the most intelligent. They get bonuses to con, and penalties to strength. While grey elves get penalties to con and bonuses to int.
There's a huge difference to a mage class with 50 hit points.
I guess this isn't really a whine, it's just my being curious why the memtimes are the same at high levels and different at lower... I would think the extra con notch should balance it out.
Comments?
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Malacar - omg ymir!
That said... Gnomes have a con notch over elves. Elves have an Int notch over gnomes. The Int notch is a truly moot point at 50th however, as the mem scales are identical.
I would like to know why this is. Basically, it makes playing an elf almost pointless, except from a role-play aspect. Gnomes in the D&D sense, aren't the most intelligent. They get bonuses to con, and penalties to strength. While grey elves get penalties to con and bonuses to int.
There's a huge difference to a mage class with 50 hit points.
I guess this isn't really a whine, it's just my being curious why the memtimes are the same at high levels and different at lower... I would think the extra con notch should balance it out.
Comments?
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Malacar - omg ymir!
I'd really like to know about aging and HP. My 180 year old elf just lost 1hp, and 1mv. I petitioned and Kia said Happy Birthday. If elves live to be 600, why am I losing hp when I'm not 1/3 of the way through my life span! Hell I haven't even gotten to my prom! :P
Anyone else noticed this or is it just localized to grey elf invokers.
(sorry Malacar, isn't the same topic, but it's kind of the same question )
Anyone else noticed this or is it just localized to grey elf invokers.
(sorry Malacar, isn't the same topic, but it's kind of the same question )
Having recently done some studies on races, I would like to clarify some information for the purposes of this thread. (as a side note, the prime age for elves is 245, as you start losing hps at around 250).
Gnomes have the same hitpoints as humans.
Gnomes have the same mem times as grey elves.
Hope that clears up any confusion.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Gnomes have the same hitpoints as humans.
Gnomes have the same mem times as grey elves.
Hope that clears up any confusion.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Gnomes seem to have TWO con notches over greys, but I don't know if that affects mage classes. All I know is that gnome warriors have around the same natural hp as I do.
Elves have no wisdom bonus. It's a common misconception. Only dwarves do I believe. Of course, the higher int probably results in slightly better meditates so it can seem like elf priests mem faster. Gnomes get a penalty to wisdom, not sure how big of one.
As Hyld said, elves have one agility notch over gnomes, about 6 ac worth IIRC. As a side note, trolls have the same agility as gnomes.
Nothing I can add on about the difference in strength, I've never rolled up characters to test it.
Gnomes get a penalty to charisma while elves get a bonus. And we all know how much effect charisma has for most classes
Yeah, elf stat bonuses are really messed up. They don't excel at anything compared to other goodie races (drow don't have to deal with gnomes, only yuan-ti, so they're in a very different situation balance-wise) except possibly bards
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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
[This message has been edited by Treladian (edited 06-11-2002).]
Elves have no wisdom bonus. It's a common misconception. Only dwarves do I believe. Of course, the higher int probably results in slightly better meditates so it can seem like elf priests mem faster. Gnomes get a penalty to wisdom, not sure how big of one.
As Hyld said, elves have one agility notch over gnomes, about 6 ac worth IIRC. As a side note, trolls have the same agility as gnomes.
Nothing I can add on about the difference in strength, I've never rolled up characters to test it.
Gnomes get a penalty to charisma while elves get a bonus. And we all know how much effect charisma has for most classes
Yeah, elf stat bonuses are really messed up. They don't excel at anything compared to other goodie races (drow don't have to deal with gnomes, only yuan-ti, so they're in a very different situation balance-wise) except possibly bards
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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
[This message has been edited by Treladian (edited 06-11-2002).]
1) Gnomes are one wisdom notch behind elves.
2) Treladian: I just got done saying gnomes have the same hps as humans. Fact.
3) Dwarves do not have a wisdom bonus.
4) You are correct about the agility notches, but failed to mention that the extra notch for elves is somewhere around 98+.
5) Gnomes are one strength notch behind elves.
If anyone else feels like posting, please don't post rumors and misinformation. Know what you're talking about.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
2) Treladian: I just got done saying gnomes have the same hps as humans. Fact.
3) Dwarves do not have a wisdom bonus.
4) You are correct about the agility notches, but failed to mention that the extra notch for elves is somewhere around 98+.
5) Gnomes are one strength notch behind elves.
If anyone else feels like posting, please don't post rumors and misinformation. Know what you're talking about.
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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>Yayaril, in any edition grey elves always got a bonus to intelligence and a minus to con.
You're thinking high elves.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They didn't always break it down into different types of elves, though.
<B>Yayaril, in any edition grey elves always got a bonus to intelligence and a minus to con.
You're thinking high elves.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They didn't always break it down into different types of elves, though.
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- Sojourner
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>plat is worthless = charisma pointless = races that have good charisma don't feel like they have anything special. kinda like rangers and di/sense life/invis/ect...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Typical point of view of a high-level, established player. It's true, once you've been around for a while, platinum basically loses all its meaning, except to pay for the odd prac (not really necessary in the upper levels) and association fees, if you're in one.
However, for a little newbie that's just getting started, platinum is far from worthless. Newbies actually require the coins to practice, to buy gear from the store (not a bad place to find stuff, since it's tough to get any sort of gear at an early level unless it's handed to you), and possibly to enter the buy and sell market to pick up a few pieces of gear that way.
Note that I'm not saying you need spanky gear to level. I played a drow enchanter right after the wipe, and had lots of fun fighting satyrs in Mir forest with no +hp, lousy ac, and red-steel flail, fleeing at -2 hp 'cause of spellcast lag. But, in today's MUD where half or more of the little guys running around are stacked alts, newbies have to compete for groups somehow.
Of course, I doubt this is a reason to try and roll perfect cha, even if you are a complete newbie. :P
<B>plat is worthless = charisma pointless = races that have good charisma don't feel like they have anything special. kinda like rangers and di/sense life/invis/ect...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Typical point of view of a high-level, established player. It's true, once you've been around for a while, platinum basically loses all its meaning, except to pay for the odd prac (not really necessary in the upper levels) and association fees, if you're in one.
However, for a little newbie that's just getting started, platinum is far from worthless. Newbies actually require the coins to practice, to buy gear from the store (not a bad place to find stuff, since it's tough to get any sort of gear at an early level unless it's handed to you), and possibly to enter the buy and sell market to pick up a few pieces of gear that way.
Note that I'm not saying you need spanky gear to level. I played a drow enchanter right after the wipe, and had lots of fun fighting satyrs in Mir forest with no +hp, lousy ac, and red-steel flail, fleeing at -2 hp 'cause of spellcast lag. But, in today's MUD where half or more of the little guys running around are stacked alts, newbies have to compete for groups somehow.
Of course, I doubt this is a reason to try and roll perfect cha, even if you are a complete newbie. :P
True Iyachtu, but ever since Greyhawk was fleshed out, Grey's have been pretty stapled as the 'intelligent' elven race.
In for forgotten realms, though... If we wanna get technical, which I always love to do with D&D since it's my primary hobby(sad, huh?)...
There is no such thing as grey or high elves. Grey elves are called sun elves, and high elves are moon elves.
Conversely, there is no such thing as a mountain or hill dwarf. Mountain dwarves are shield dwarves, and hill dwarves are gold dwarves.
I believe unearthed arcana, circa 1985, was the first real firm entries of grey elves, wild elves(grugach), drow, duergar, and svirfneblin. They may have been mentioned in numerous gazeteers, modules, and dragon magazines prior to that, but this was the first actual sourcebook that contained them I think.
Semantics, I know.. But I guess they are more important to me than others.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
In for forgotten realms, though... If we wanna get technical, which I always love to do with D&D since it's my primary hobby(sad, huh?)...
There is no such thing as grey or high elves. Grey elves are called sun elves, and high elves are moon elves.
Conversely, there is no such thing as a mountain or hill dwarf. Mountain dwarves are shield dwarves, and hill dwarves are gold dwarves.
I believe unearthed arcana, circa 1985, was the first real firm entries of grey elves, wild elves(grugach), drow, duergar, and svirfneblin. They may have been mentioned in numerous gazeteers, modules, and dragon magazines prior to that, but this was the first actual sourcebook that contained them I think.
Semantics, I know.. But I guess they are more important to me than others.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
I didn't know there were so many elf types. I thought there were grey elves and aquatic elves... oh yeah, those wild kind, too. I never bought any of the supplimental books in 2nd edition, like the elf one. Thus there was just 'elf' and it gained +1 bonus to dexterity, and a -1 penalty to constitution. In third edition, again, there is just 'elf' in the players handbook, and it gets +2 bonus to dexterity and -2 penalty to constitution (Similar to 2nd edition). So if added suppliments split them into different subspecies and gave them different modifiers, I was unaware.
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-Yayaril
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-Yayaril
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- Sojourner
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why should ever race/class combo be equal? viable even...
as for elves, how could you make them more viable without decreasing what sets them apart? shall we give them human hps elf agi elf charisma elf dex? small hps is a defining feature of elves. lets think of other ways to "balance" them if its truly needed.
and is adjusting their stats the best way? since most elves tend to play due to rp imo, id suggest more elf only eq and quests to truly make them happy. thats what they want anyhow, to be special, to be elf. gnomes and humans are after powergame hps or int, same with dwarves barbs ect...
and really is there a problem in the high end game, cuz i see drow mages walking around with 750-820 eq'd hps and id assume they have the same con notch as greys. pretty hard to kill an 1k pc of any class short of a spank.
as for elves, how could you make them more viable without decreasing what sets them apart? shall we give them human hps elf agi elf charisma elf dex? small hps is a defining feature of elves. lets think of other ways to "balance" them if its truly needed.
and is adjusting their stats the best way? since most elves tend to play due to rp imo, id suggest more elf only eq and quests to truly make them happy. thats what they want anyhow, to be special, to be elf. gnomes and humans are after powergame hps or int, same with dwarves barbs ect...
and really is there a problem in the high end game, cuz i see drow mages walking around with 750-820 eq'd hps and id assume they have the same con notch as greys. pretty hard to kill an 1k pc of any class short of a spank.
Sematics wise in FR, Moon elf = silver elf = grey elf. Mechanics wise, they all equal high elf, aka the default elf. Likewise, Sun elf = gold elf = high elf while mechanically they correspond to grey elves in other worlds. Moon elf and sun elf are the most common ways of refering to the subraces, silver and gold used less often, and grey and high elf used as insults between the two. I've never been able to tell which "grey elf" elves here were supposed to correspond to The 3rd edition FR book only uses the terms moon and sun elves, probably to avoid confusion. The terms appeared in the snippet about FR in the book of elves in 2nd edition, possibly 2nd edition FR too.
Additionally, wood elf = sylvan elf = green elf. Wild/grugach elves are something else entirely and not supposed to have existed in the realms, but due to some editing stupidities on some 2nd edition products, wild elves showed up in FR and were grandfathered into 3rd edition FR since the editors thought it would be less confusing that way. There are two or three subraces of aquatic elves that correspond to what body of water the originate from, but there are no statistical differences between them. And then of course you've got the drow, which were originally another subrace of elves called the Illithyri before they turned to Lloth worship en masse.
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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
Additionally, wood elf = sylvan elf = green elf. Wild/grugach elves are something else entirely and not supposed to have existed in the realms, but due to some editing stupidities on some 2nd edition products, wild elves showed up in FR and were grandfathered into 3rd edition FR since the editors thought it would be less confusing that way. There are two or three subraces of aquatic elves that correspond to what body of water the originate from, but there are no statistical differences between them. And then of course you've got the drow, which were originally another subrace of elves called the Illithyri before they turned to Lloth worship en masse.
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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
No, you're wrong Trel.
If you want, I can IM any of you the sourcebooks that say that Moon elves are high elves with standard abilities from the players handbook.
Likewise, it also says that Sun elves get +2 intelligence, and -2 constitution. In older editions, it was +1/-1, but in 3rd it went up for reasons due to system.
Grey elves have, and for 17 years, gotten the +int modifier, not standard elves(high elves). Wild elves and wood elves got str mods or weird stuff, but I usually outlaw those in my games, because they are so twinky it hurts.
[Addendum: You can originally find out where grey elves come from, from OLD greyhawk books. But check unearthed arcana for the first official sourcebook where they are labeled grey.]
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Malacar - omg ymir!
[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 06-12-2002).]
If you want, I can IM any of you the sourcebooks that say that Moon elves are high elves with standard abilities from the players handbook.
Likewise, it also says that Sun elves get +2 intelligence, and -2 constitution. In older editions, it was +1/-1, but in 3rd it went up for reasons due to system.
Grey elves have, and for 17 years, gotten the +int modifier, not standard elves(high elves). Wild elves and wood elves got str mods or weird stuff, but I usually outlaw those in my games, because they are so twinky it hurts.
[Addendum: You can originally find out where grey elves come from, from OLD greyhawk books. But check unearthed arcana for the first official sourcebook where they are labeled grey.]
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Malacar - omg ymir!
[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 06-12-2002).]
I will stand resolute by the idea that high elves = gold elves and grey elves = moon elves in the book "Evermeet." I read that book a second time just to answer that question, had to read the WHOLE thing just to be sure, and it's in there. I am not a D&D player and haven't been since I was a kid, so I'm pretty clueless when it comes to that. I just needed to make sure I understood the differences between the elven races as the FR world saw it for a zone I did.
You'd be very wrong if you stood resolute by that Ashiwi... I can assure you of that.
Bot gonna sit here and argue with you guys tho... I been running for 18 years. I have all the books. I know for a fact high are moon and sun are grey, but you do what ya need to.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
Bot gonna sit here and argue with you guys tho... I been running for 18 years. I have all the books. I know for a fact high are moon and sun are grey, but you do what ya need to.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
Mal, I think this is the problem. You're talking D&D, gaming, DM'ing, etc. Me and Ashiwi are talking about an FR novel that recounts the history of the elves of Faerun. Therein might lie the problem, as the two may differ. I will check when I get home, but I'm sure that in the novel, moon elves were the grey's, and gold elves were the high's. Kinda makes sense like that to me, moon elves had a grayer skin in the novel with darker, silverish hair colors, while the skin of the gold/high elves was more golden brown with lighter, more golden hair colors.
Anyways, I no longer dispute you Mal, just want to see if there is a difference between the novel and the character books.
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Anyways, I no longer dispute you Mal, just want to see if there is a difference between the novel and the character books.
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Here's the poop.. It's easy. The names the way I listed them, and the way everyone listed them are correct.
My arguement was simply from a stat perspective. Their physical descriptions are reversed. Their names are reversed. Sun elves are the stereotypical grey elves, minus the description. Moon elves are the stereotypical high elves, minus the description. If you took the body of one, and swapped it with another, we'd all be right as long as the attitudes and build(not coloring, etc) were kept the same.
Fair enough?
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Malacar - omg ymir!
[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 06-12-2002).]
My arguement was simply from a stat perspective. Their physical descriptions are reversed. Their names are reversed. Sun elves are the stereotypical grey elves, minus the description. Moon elves are the stereotypical high elves, minus the description. If you took the body of one, and swapped it with another, we'd all be right as long as the attitudes and build(not coloring, etc) were kept the same.
Fair enough?
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Malacar - omg ymir!
[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 06-12-2002).]
No, the problem is I don't think Malacar's looked at any of the FR specific stuff. I've got my 2nd ed. complete book of elves in front of me, and the section on elves in Faerun isn't exactly easy to follow. But basically it has gold elves called high elves and sunrise elves, but says their stats are those of standard grey elves. Silver elves are called moon elves or grey elves, but stats are those of high elves.
I guess someone just wanted to confuse people, either that or wasn't paying attention at one point, and TSR just went with it.
Cal
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I guess someone just wanted to confuse people, either that or wasn't paying attention at one point, and TSR just went with it.
Cal
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Good thing this mud isn't trying to be a perfect simulacrum of D&D. In the world of Sojourn3, elves have similar intellect to gnomes. They have disadvantages over elves- they aren't as dextrous, agile, charismatic, or strong. Elves have disadvantages over gnomes- they aren't as hearty. Seems elves got the longer end of the stick on this one.
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-Yayaril
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-Yayaril
Yeah, I think I had misinformation when I started it(but I did state that my info might not be right!).
I was under the impression grey's had a notch over gnomes for int. Apparently not.
I think that evens it out in the longrun.
Never thought I would say this, but... Thanks for the ontopic post, Yayaril.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
I was under the impression grey's had a notch over gnomes for int. Apparently not.
I think that evens it out in the longrun.
Never thought I would say this, but... Thanks for the ontopic post, Yayaril.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
"Moon elf = silver elf = grey elf. Mechanics wise, they all equal high elf"
"If you want, I can IM any of you the sourcebooks that say that Moon elves are high elves with standard abilities from the players handbook."
Umm Mal, that's exactly what I said. I just refered to the standard elf as high elf because that's what type of elf the standard elf is and didn't use the word stat since there are more than just stat bonuses that come with race. I do think this thread this explains why they only used the descriptors of moon and sun elf to refer to each elf respectively in the 3rd edition FR book though. Far too many semantics issues and confusion. Too bad they didn't anticipate what happens when you mixed in older source material.
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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
"If you want, I can IM any of you the sourcebooks that say that Moon elves are high elves with standard abilities from the players handbook."
Umm Mal, that's exactly what I said. I just refered to the standard elf as high elf because that's what type of elf the standard elf is and didn't use the word stat since there are more than just stat bonuses that come with race. I do think this thread this explains why they only used the descriptors of moon and sun elf to refer to each elf respectively in the 3rd edition FR book though. Far too many semantics issues and confusion. Too bad they didn't anticipate what happens when you mixed in older source material.
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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
Ok back on topic... maybe a solution to distinguish grey elves over gnomes would be to UP their racial int. Since elves are the smartest anyway it's not like it'll pull much more out of balace, but it will give us elves at least some sort of reason to play an elf and not a human/gnome.
and as a response kiryan, not every class/race combo needs to be viable, but when a race is totally worthless for all classes, then something needs to be done. As it stands, there is not a single class that grey elves excel in, and that's wrong.
and for christ's sake don't you dare fucking say "remove elves" as a response to that problem. god I hate you already for saying it.
and as a response kiryan, not every class/race combo needs to be viable, but when a race is totally worthless for all classes, then something needs to be done. As it stands, there is not a single class that grey elves excel in, and that's wrong.
and for christ's sake don't you dare fucking say "remove elves" as a response to that problem. god I hate you already for saying it.
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