Invokers vs. Demon/dragon/undead/elemental shrugging
Invokers vs. Demon/dragon/undead/elemental shrugging
They don't stand much of a chance at all. in zones such as CC or astral or avernus, almost every mob (if not every) will shrug off spells. Most classes can accept this and focus on buffing the hitters. Invokers have no buffs and are rendered almost useless in these zones. I was wondering, could invokers maybe get some spells that are !shrug? maybe a spell that can only target dragons (or undead or elementals etc.) and get through their shrugs ?
just a thought!
Dalar
just a thought!
Dalar
I personally feel that invokers are getting shafted because of all the magic resistance. However, I don't think so much that magic damage is underpowered, but rather that physical damage is overpowered.
I would like to see more mobs holding shields and riding ultra buff mounts. If casters have to put up with magic resistance, I don't see why hitters shouldn't have to put up with shieldblock and flankblock(mounted evade or whatever we call it now). This would cause some mobs to be vulnerable to physical damage, some to be vulnerable to magic, and some not vulnerable to either(like demogorgon).
I would like to see more mobs holding shields and riding ultra buff mounts. If casters have to put up with magic resistance, I don't see why hitters shouldn't have to put up with shieldblock and flankblock(mounted evade or whatever we call it now). This would cause some mobs to be vulnerable to physical damage, some to be vulnerable to magic, and some not vulnerable to either(like demogorgon).
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- Sojourner
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Not to stick it to the invokers, but doesn't this give them a weakness to an otherwise super powered class? A while back everyone was shouting downgrade invokers because they did so much damage that they made hitters obselete. I do agree with Hyldryn that there should be more shieldblocking/mountblocking mobs out there to balance what warriors/pallys can do since they can't, but I think spell shrugging gives hitters a little extra help in groups, and gives tanks a little reason to still be able to hit, instead of going all out on AC/HP items while the invoker nukes the pants off of everything. Yes?no?
*shrugs*
MR is a little too high, but honestly, take an illusionist.
With Saerian in most of the groups I am in, when he shadow fluxes, it makes quite a large difference, comparitive to how often a mob shrugs prior to it.
Try Quelranor(Planetar) or Silverwing(Movanic Deva) sometime with. Then try it without. Bet he dies twice as fast.
My 2 cents is that shadow flux has it's purpose bigtime in these groups, and makes an illusionist that much more wanted in groups.
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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
MR is a little too high, but honestly, take an illusionist.
With Saerian in most of the groups I am in, when he shadow fluxes, it makes quite a large difference, comparitive to how often a mob shrugs prior to it.
Try Quelranor(Planetar) or Silverwing(Movanic Deva) sometime with. Then try it without. Bet he dies twice as fast.
My 2 cents is that shadow flux has it's purpose bigtime in these groups, and makes an illusionist that much more wanted in groups.
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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
What's this shadow flux? There is no help file for it nor is it listed under help skill_illusionist.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
someone doesn't read the news :P
There's a news entry about it and other things regarding illusionists from a while ago.
What's this shadow flux? There is no help file for it nor is it listed under help skill_illusionist.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
someone doesn't read the news :P
There's a news entry about it and other things regarding illusionists from a while ago.
It lowers the magic resistance of the target, so less shrugging off spells.
Malacar, yes, I would love to take an illisionist in groups. Hell, I'd also love to have an invoker. But to be honest, there are very few illus around, let alone high enoguh level to cast shadow flux and stuff like that for high lvl zones. You're lucky since you've got a group of people like that with a high lvl illus and nuker.
Its kinda sad, but the groups I've been in rarely have an invoker.
Malacar, yes, I would love to take an illisionist in groups. Hell, I'd also love to have an invoker. But to be honest, there are very few illus around, let alone high enoguh level to cast shadow flux and stuff like that for high lvl zones. You're lucky since you've got a group of people like that with a high lvl illus and nuker.
Its kinda sad, but the groups I've been in rarely have an invoker.
*nods to Rylan*
Invokers got kinda screwed honestly. I never understood why all their cool unique spells were taken away instead of downgraded.
Class really lost it's lustre.
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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
Invokers got kinda screwed honestly. I never understood why all their cool unique spells were taken away instead of downgraded.
Class really lost it's lustre.
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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
Also, I understand that invoker exp was upgraded 25% via damage exp, but you really should check out rogues damage exp. I don't see why invokers shouldn't get a ton of damage exp when rogues do.
Rogues fall down and they notch.
When a level 50 rogue while zoning gains like 4x the exp as all of the casters...
Rogues level faster than invokers of old did and there are always twice as many rogues on as invokers. Not to mention rogues have cleric hps, evasion, poisons, etc..
I think there is a balance issue there.
[I am not saying anything should be downgraded, because finally rogues are useful!]
Jurdex
Dornax
Rogues fall down and they notch.
When a level 50 rogue while zoning gains like 4x the exp as all of the casters...
Rogues level faster than invokers of old did and there are always twice as many rogues on as invokers. Not to mention rogues have cleric hps, evasion, poisons, etc..
I think there is a balance issue there.
[I am not saying anything should be downgraded, because finally rogues are useful!]
Jurdex
Dornax
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- Sojourner
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I am well aware of the fact rogue exp table is easy, Galok. However, I find it strange that invokers still only get 1/4 of their damage exp as well as limited usefulness plus brutal exp chart while rogues (their melee counterpart) get full damage exp.
I'm not complaining, I just think it is a balance issue.
who invok s
who rogue s
That tells you all you need to know!
Soj3 kicks ass though.
Jurdex
Dornax
I'm not complaining, I just think it is a balance issue.
who invok s
who rogue s
That tells you all you need to know!
Soj3 kicks ass though.
Jurdex
Dornax
This can be balanced by the players if you really want to. Just dont cast haste on the Rogues :-P
Takes a spellcaster to make that rogue get more xps
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>I am well aware of the fact rogue exp table is easy, Galok. However, I find it strange that invokers still only get 1/4 of their damage exp as well as limited usefulness plus brutal exp chart while rogues (their melee counterpart) get full damage exp.
I'm not complaining, I just think it is a balance issue.
who invok s
who rogue s
That tells you all you need to know!
Soj3 kicks ass though.
Jurdex
Dornax</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Takes a spellcaster to make that rogue get more xps
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>I am well aware of the fact rogue exp table is easy, Galok. However, I find it strange that invokers still only get 1/4 of their damage exp as well as limited usefulness plus brutal exp chart while rogues (their melee counterpart) get full damage exp.
I'm not complaining, I just think it is a balance issue.
who invok s
who rogue s
That tells you all you need to know!
Soj3 kicks ass though.
Jurdex
Dornax</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[sarcasm]
Of course the high level rogues would have nothing to do with the fact that they just play a whole lot, no.
"Playing time: 27 days / 3 hours/ 23 minutes"
[/sarcasm]
For fun, try 'who ranger s' and 'who invoker s' too - does this mean that Rangers are too powerful too? :)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>I am well aware of the fact rogue exp table is easy, Galok. However, I find it strange that invokers still only get 1/4 of their damage exp as well as limited usefulness plus brutal exp chart while rogues (their melee counterpart) get full damage exp.
I'm not complaining, I just think it is a balance issue.
who invok s
who rogue s
That tells you all you need to know! :)
Soj3 kicks ass though.
Jurdex
Dornax</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course the high level rogues would have nothing to do with the fact that they just play a whole lot, no.
"Playing time: 27 days / 3 hours/ 23 minutes"
[/sarcasm]
For fun, try 'who ranger s' and 'who invoker s' too - does this mean that Rangers are too powerful too? :)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>I am well aware of the fact rogue exp table is easy, Galok. However, I find it strange that invokers still only get 1/4 of their damage exp as well as limited usefulness plus brutal exp chart while rogues (their melee counterpart) get full damage exp.
I'm not complaining, I just think it is a balance issue.
who invok s
who rogue s
That tells you all you need to know! :)
Soj3 kicks ass though.
Jurdex
Dornax</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Heh.. well I suppose I should comment on this topic too. As I said in another thread somewhere... I have come to hate and accept magic ressistance as an invoker. I think it gives the hitter classes more emphasis on thier abilities and the need for them.
People above mentioned that invokers suck, got shafted, or something of the like. This is true.. and here is why.
1.) They are one of the hardest if not the harderst character to level experience wise. Yes.. even with the damage exp upgrade. Don't get me wrong... invokers should be one of the hardest characters to level.. but comparitively to other similar classes and people that play a whole lot less than me they still seem to zoom past me in exp with ease.
2.) They do not do the most damage of any character in the game... which I thought was thier primary attribute. Necros.. with 3 wraiths easily outdamage me area effect or otherwise with half the casting times and of course 3 wraiths casting. Now I'm not saying necros should be downgraded at all... they have reached thier balance. What I would propose to counter this.. is that area spells that can't be casted simutaniously with another invoker be upgraded. Inferno and Meteor Swarm being the particulars. I was pretty disapointed after doing the big long quests and putting the spells to the test. Heavy casting times and the lack of damage thereof. Inferno always being failable. And of course the lack of being able to have another invoker use the same spells. I really think a slight damage increase and/or casting time decrease would be in order to best necro damage.
3.) Lastly the !invoker same spell area thing. This should not do damage to the caster. I understand the purpose of this and agree with it.. for the case of maybe 3+ 50th level invokers just lettin loose infernos. Allthough I fail to see the harm in 2.
-Jaznolg
My thoughts on the matter.
People above mentioned that invokers suck, got shafted, or something of the like. This is true.. and here is why.
1.) They are one of the hardest if not the harderst character to level experience wise. Yes.. even with the damage exp upgrade. Don't get me wrong... invokers should be one of the hardest characters to level.. but comparitively to other similar classes and people that play a whole lot less than me they still seem to zoom past me in exp with ease.
2.) They do not do the most damage of any character in the game... which I thought was thier primary attribute. Necros.. with 3 wraiths easily outdamage me area effect or otherwise with half the casting times and of course 3 wraiths casting. Now I'm not saying necros should be downgraded at all... they have reached thier balance. What I would propose to counter this.. is that area spells that can't be casted simutaniously with another invoker be upgraded. Inferno and Meteor Swarm being the particulars. I was pretty disapointed after doing the big long quests and putting the spells to the test. Heavy casting times and the lack of damage thereof. Inferno always being failable. And of course the lack of being able to have another invoker use the same spells. I really think a slight damage increase and/or casting time decrease would be in order to best necro damage.
3.) Lastly the !invoker same spell area thing. This should not do damage to the caster. I understand the purpose of this and agree with it.. for the case of maybe 3+ 50th level invokers just lettin loose infernos. Allthough I fail to see the harm in 2.
-Jaznolg
My thoughts on the matter.
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- Sojourner
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- Location: Fort Bragg, North Carolina, USA
- Contact:
3.) Lastly the !invoker same spell area thing. This should not do damage to the caster. I understand the purpose of this and agree with it.. for the case of maybe 3+ 50th level invokers just lettin loose infernos. Allthough I fail to see the harm in 2.
-Jaznolg
My thoughts on the matter.[/B][/QUOTE]
Not to change the subject, but I thought the penalties for too many invokers trying to cast invokers would be to balance lower level area affect spells being cast in unison? Also, another random thought, and this is probably a nogo, but would it be possible to factor in room size to the detramental effects of massive area effects?.. say, if you're in a 10x10foot room and 2 mages cast inferno, yea you're all pop tarts, but if you're in a 200x200 area and 5 invokers cast inferno.. you've got so much area to work with that you just get a little singed? ... rambling, just wanted to throw that out there.
Me
-Jaznolg
My thoughts on the matter.[/B][/QUOTE]
Not to change the subject, but I thought the penalties for too many invokers trying to cast invokers would be to balance lower level area affect spells being cast in unison? Also, another random thought, and this is probably a nogo, but would it be possible to factor in room size to the detramental effects of massive area effects?.. say, if you're in a 10x10foot room and 2 mages cast inferno, yea you're all pop tarts, but if you're in a 200x200 area and 5 invokers cast inferno.. you've got so much area to work with that you just get a little singed? ... rambling, just wanted to throw that out there.
Me
Regarding shadow flux: I use it all the time on my illu, cuz i love its effect. I had a debate earlier with someone about casting it on non-casting (non MR?) mobs. Somehow I am under the impression that I get a better hitrate for my own spells when I hit shadow flux.... even on 'normal' mobs. Am I mistaken?
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- Sojourner
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The there are only 4 illusionist comment is pointless. take the necessary classes or dont do the zone. If there aren't enough class x players, dont change the game, make more class x.
How often does shadow flux get shrugged? A few months ago it seemed it was a couple 3 casts to land. Multiply this by 2 or 3 mobs in the room and the problem becomes unreal.
is banshee wail similar to flux?
The upgrade invokers need is on the area limiter imo. I see them geting 40% out of blast radius all the time.
The other thing is why does every non normal mob type shrug? Wraiths shrug, undead shrug, elementals shrug including earth, demons, dragons. there is a little too much shrugging going on which is primarily a result of zone writers trying to make cool zones. cool zones arent full of normal mobs, they full of wraiths and undead and demons ect... (ponder, whats the difference between this and druids being gimped since there are like 2 nature zones.)
As far as melee needing a downgrade... wraith forms take half melee damage? which brings up an interesting point imo. some mobs should be uber hard to kill. but not every wraithform needs to shrug like a bitch in addition to taking half dam from melee. If wraithforms across the board take 1/2 melee damage, they should be a little more prone to magic. Occasionally one shuold be uber resistant to magic and melee.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 05-29-2002).]
How often does shadow flux get shrugged? A few months ago it seemed it was a couple 3 casts to land. Multiply this by 2 or 3 mobs in the room and the problem becomes unreal.
is banshee wail similar to flux?
The upgrade invokers need is on the area limiter imo. I see them geting 40% out of blast radius all the time.
The other thing is why does every non normal mob type shrug? Wraiths shrug, undead shrug, elementals shrug including earth, demons, dragons. there is a little too much shrugging going on which is primarily a result of zone writers trying to make cool zones. cool zones arent full of normal mobs, they full of wraiths and undead and demons ect... (ponder, whats the difference between this and druids being gimped since there are like 2 nature zones.)
As far as melee needing a downgrade... wraith forms take half melee damage? which brings up an interesting point imo. some mobs should be uber hard to kill. but not every wraithform needs to shrug like a bitch in addition to taking half dam from melee. If wraithforms across the board take 1/2 melee damage, they should be a little more prone to magic. Occasionally one shuold be uber resistant to magic and melee.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 05-29-2002).]
I can't believe that rogues and invokers were compared. *laugh* That's priceless. and it took what ? 20 posts to drag in the ranger? *laughlaughlaugh* I do agree there are balance issues with the rogue, but thats neither here nor there. On to the solution! :
Simple solution for this problem, as I see it. . . eliminate the extremes. Right now, spells either work, or they don't. Just like archery either worked, or it didn't. I suggest making MR decrease the damage taken by spells, dependent on level of spell/if fluxed/cursed/etc. Just like +4 arrows are only slowed 5%, inferno, when 'resisted' should probably STILL do 95% of its normal damage (with saves still factored in, however). This would allow invokers to still be usefull, but also up the challenge of mobs that are supposed to be difficult. I know this would probably take some hard core code changes, but in the end I think it would offer a more flexible system that would benefit all.
Thoughts?
Shitcan Joe
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Simple solution for this problem, as I see it. . . eliminate the extremes. Right now, spells either work, or they don't. Just like archery either worked, or it didn't. I suggest making MR decrease the damage taken by spells, dependent on level of spell/if fluxed/cursed/etc. Just like +4 arrows are only slowed 5%, inferno, when 'resisted' should probably STILL do 95% of its normal damage (with saves still factored in, however). This would allow invokers to still be usefull, but also up the challenge of mobs that are supposed to be difficult. I know this would probably take some hard core code changes, but in the end I think it would offer a more flexible system that would benefit all.
Thoughts?
Shitcan Joe
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiaransalee:
What's wrong with using shadow flux?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps the abilities, or potential capabilities, of one class should not be solely dependant upon the spell of another?
This is what it is sounding like. If an Invoker can’t be an Invoker without an Illusionist, why not just play a Rogue and forget having to rely on the Illusionist?
Rogues level faster too.
I’m uncertain exactly why such an ability as “shadow flux” wasn’t given to the Invoker class in the first place as say a 10th circle quest spell?
Think of Necromancers. What if they didn’t have Soul Bind for making wraith-forms, because the spell belonged only to the Illusionists?
On the note of Necromancers, does Banshee Wail reduce magic resistance? I heard it makes Ray, Wither, Feeble, etc land easier but just curious exactly what it is doing to mobs?
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What's wrong with using shadow flux?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps the abilities, or potential capabilities, of one class should not be solely dependant upon the spell of another?
This is what it is sounding like. If an Invoker can’t be an Invoker without an Illusionist, why not just play a Rogue and forget having to rely on the Illusionist?
Rogues level faster too.
I’m uncertain exactly why such an ability as “shadow flux” wasn’t given to the Invoker class in the first place as say a 10th circle quest spell?
Think of Necromancers. What if they didn’t have Soul Bind for making wraith-forms, because the spell belonged only to the Illusionists?
On the note of Necromancers, does Banshee Wail reduce magic resistance? I heard it makes Ray, Wither, Feeble, etc land easier but just curious exactly what it is doing to mobs?
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(you're only supposed to do that when there are more rogues than invokers, dummy!)
Look. . . there are balance issues with the classes. No doubt. . .
but no offense. . .you're not going to prove a point by showing how popular one class is over another. I mean, how many millions of people like N-Stink? does that mean they're GOOD?! my goodness people! Popularity does not mean anything =)
Sockburn Rubberdark Ed.
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Look. . . there are balance issues with the classes. No doubt. . .
but no offense. . .you're not going to prove a point by showing how popular one class is over another. I mean, how many millions of people like N-Stink? does that mean they're GOOD?! my goodness people! Popularity does not mean anything =)
Sockburn Rubberdark Ed.
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Nokie, you need to be downgraded :P
I have 45 days 20+ hrs ptime, and I'm only level 43. Rogues *do* level like madmen. My friend the level 28 rogue went with a 30-some warrior and cleric to exp. He leveled like twice as fast. Now, granted, damage dealers always level faster.
I'd like to hear about the mortality rates though. Rogues die a lot less than rangers and such in groups.
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Zaryn group-says 'If we can para the mages again. Mori's trick is going to save us.'
<> You group-say 'zaryn the "mori save us" irony is not lost on me'
I have 45 days 20+ hrs ptime, and I'm only level 43. Rogues *do* level like madmen. My friend the level 28 rogue went with a 30-some warrior and cleric to exp. He leveled like twice as fast. Now, granted, damage dealers always level faster.
I'd like to hear about the mortality rates though. Rogues die a lot less than rangers and such in groups.
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Zaryn group-says 'If we can para the mages again. Mori's trick is going to save us.'
<> You group-say 'zaryn the "mori save us" irony is not lost on me'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nokie:
<B>woops, I replied to a message that was over 9 months old....
Who keeps resurrecting these old threads?!
[This message has been edited by Nokie (edited 05-29-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bahahaha! Morispirit at work!
<B>woops, I replied to a message that was over 9 months old....
Who keeps resurrecting these old threads?!
[This message has been edited by Nokie (edited 05-29-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bahahaha! Morispirit at work!
Playing time: 108 days / 21 hours/ 45 minutes
:P
[flamebait]
Maybe rogues don't die as much as rangers because the rogues are so much more skilled than rangers?!
[/flamebait]
But seriously (and we don't need to rehash the already solved ranger dying problem according to Miax), the problem with Rangers dying in groups (IMHO) is that many of them have some silly notion that they are tanks and they go and rescue everyone. 2 rounds later when they are dead - they still can't grasp that they are trying to be super tanks and super hitters at the same time. Warriors and (anti) Paladins are the tanks! This is all my opinion of course - to address Mori's question.
Back to the subject of invokers: Hopefully MR can be looked at a little more!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>Nokie, you need to be downgraded :P
I have 45 days 20+ hrs ptime, and I'm only level 43. Rogues *do* level like madmen. My friend the level 28 rogue went with a 30-some warrior and cleric to exp. He leveled like twice as fast. Now, granted, damage dealers always level faster.
I'd like to hear about the mortality rates though. Rogues die a lot less than rangers and such in groups.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
[This message has been edited by Nokie (edited 05-29-2002).]
:P
[flamebait]
Maybe rogues don't die as much as rangers because the rogues are so much more skilled than rangers?!
[/flamebait]
But seriously (and we don't need to rehash the already solved ranger dying problem according to Miax), the problem with Rangers dying in groups (IMHO) is that many of them have some silly notion that they are tanks and they go and rescue everyone. 2 rounds later when they are dead - they still can't grasp that they are trying to be super tanks and super hitters at the same time. Warriors and (anti) Paladins are the tanks! This is all my opinion of course - to address Mori's question.
Back to the subject of invokers: Hopefully MR can be looked at a little more!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>Nokie, you need to be downgraded :P
I have 45 days 20+ hrs ptime, and I'm only level 43. Rogues *do* level like madmen. My friend the level 28 rogue went with a 30-some warrior and cleric to exp. He leveled like twice as fast. Now, granted, damage dealers always level faster.
I'd like to hear about the mortality rates though. Rogues die a lot less than rangers and such in groups.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
[This message has been edited by Nokie (edited 05-29-2002).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lirathal:
<B>Ench got time stop because they bish'ed about the spell up times, how about invokers get mind focusing or magic focusing or something like that that improves the spells ability to break through MR?
my 2cents
Lirathal</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LAUGH!!!
<B>Ench got time stop because they bish'ed about the spell up times, how about invokers get mind focusing or magic focusing or something like that that improves the spells ability to break through MR?
my 2cents
Lirathal</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LAUGH!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nokie:
<B>Playing time: 108 days / 21 hours/ 45 minutes
:P
[flamebait]
Maybe rogues don't die as much as rangers because the rogues are so much more skilled than rangers?!
[/flamebait]
But seriously (and we don't need to rehash the already solved ranger dying problem according to Miax), the problem with Rangers dying in groups (IMHO) is that many of them have some silly notion that they are tanks and they go and rescue everyone. 2 rounds later when they are dead - they still can't grasp that they are trying to be super tanks and super hitters at the same time. Warriors and (anti) Paladins are the tanks! This is all my opinion of course - to address Mori's question.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is my experience exactly. I have a level 29 Rogue and there have been times when I have been in a group where we could not get a tank and the ranger decided they could tank.
Rogues seem to understand that they are not good at tanking and flee/escape immediately upon being switched to. Also when I rogue rescue I aways follow that with escape/flee (after letting that silly caster run screaming from the room of course HEHE)
Just as an aside, don't forget to bring your friendly neighborhood shaman with you to cast HEX on those MR/shruging mobs. Helps immensely.
GRIN
<B>Playing time: 108 days / 21 hours/ 45 minutes
:P
[flamebait]
Maybe rogues don't die as much as rangers because the rogues are so much more skilled than rangers?!
[/flamebait]
But seriously (and we don't need to rehash the already solved ranger dying problem according to Miax), the problem with Rangers dying in groups (IMHO) is that many of them have some silly notion that they are tanks and they go and rescue everyone. 2 rounds later when they are dead - they still can't grasp that they are trying to be super tanks and super hitters at the same time. Warriors and (anti) Paladins are the tanks! This is all my opinion of course - to address Mori's question.
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This is my experience exactly. I have a level 29 Rogue and there have been times when I have been in a group where we could not get a tank and the ranger decided they could tank.
Rogues seem to understand that they are not good at tanking and flee/escape immediately upon being switched to. Also when I rogue rescue I aways follow that with escape/flee (after letting that silly caster run screaming from the room of course HEHE)
Just as an aside, don't forget to bring your friendly neighborhood shaman with you to cast HEX on those MR/shruging mobs. Helps immensely.
GRIN
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Caedym:
<B>
Perhaps the abilities, or potential capabilities, of one class should not be solely dependant upon the spell of another?
This is what it is sounding like. If an Invoker can’t be an Invoker without an Illusionist, why not just play a Rogue and forget having to rely on the Illusionist?
Rogues level faster too.
I’m uncertain exactly why such an ability as “shadow flux” wasn’t given to the Invoker class in the first place as say a 10th circle quest spell?
Think of Necromancers. What if they didn’t have Soul Bind for making wraith-forms, because the spell belonged only to the Illusionists?
On the note of Necromancers, does Banshee Wail reduce magic resistance? I heard it makes Ray, Wither, Feeble, etc land easier but just curious exactly what it is doing to mobs?
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One could argue that hitters are dependant on globe or ward..
Its not just invokers spells who get shafted by MR, its all spells.
Dornax
Jurdex
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The Raven of Wisdom
Est Sularus Oth Mithas
"My Honor is My Life"
<B>
Perhaps the abilities, or potential capabilities, of one class should not be solely dependant upon the spell of another?
This is what it is sounding like. If an Invoker can’t be an Invoker without an Illusionist, why not just play a Rogue and forget having to rely on the Illusionist?
Rogues level faster too.
I’m uncertain exactly why such an ability as “shadow flux” wasn’t given to the Invoker class in the first place as say a 10th circle quest spell?
Think of Necromancers. What if they didn’t have Soul Bind for making wraith-forms, because the spell belonged only to the Illusionists?
On the note of Necromancers, does Banshee Wail reduce magic resistance? I heard it makes Ray, Wither, Feeble, etc land easier but just curious exactly what it is doing to mobs?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
One could argue that hitters are dependant on globe or ward..
Its not just invokers spells who get shafted by MR, its all spells.
Dornax
Jurdex
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The Raven of Wisdom
Est Sularus Oth Mithas
"My Honor is My Life"
Thank you Nokie, I now have more faith in the hard work Myconids must put in to achieve uber status Frankly, I'm surprised you didn't just shrug it off by saying I died so much. I should have guessed that 27 days was not accurate, tho :P
Insofar as tanking goes, I don't know what to say. I've seen it proven that at midlevels rogues can solo for xp without having awesome eq (but you DO need decent eq), and gain xp faster than druids.
I'm not sure that it's refusing to flee that gets rangers killed - they often seem to have the least hps, and die to breaths or clouds. I can recall at least one occasion where Weylarii tanked a bit and bought the extra time for the group to pull back together.
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Zaryn group-says 'If we can para the mages again. Mori's trick is going to save us.'
<> You group-say 'zaryn the "mori save us" irony is not lost on me'
[This message has been edited by moritheil (edited 05-30-2002).]
Insofar as tanking goes, I don't know what to say. I've seen it proven that at midlevels rogues can solo for xp without having awesome eq (but you DO need decent eq), and gain xp faster than druids.
I'm not sure that it's refusing to flee that gets rangers killed - they often seem to have the least hps, and die to breaths or clouds. I can recall at least one occasion where Weylarii tanked a bit and bought the extra time for the group to pull back together.
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Zaryn group-says 'If we can para the mages again. Mori's trick is going to save us.'
<> You group-say 'zaryn the "mori save us" irony is not lost on me'
[This message has been edited by moritheil (edited 05-30-2002).]
"I'm not sure that it's refusing to flee that gets rangers killed - they often seem to have the least hps, and die to breaths or clouds. I can recall at least one occasion where Weylarii tanked a bit and bought the extra time for the group to pull back together."
Ranger tanking is a strange issue. The class HAS had a role as tertiary tanks that aren't going to perform as well as a pet, warrior, or anti/pali but better than caster in the past and it's reflected in the design of the class (and was discussed in some of the early discussions on the class with Miax during alpha), but tanking is much more hp and spell and to a lesser degree third tanking skill dependent now and nothing can really be done to the class IMO to renew its role as a tertiary tank in light of these changes. I've been able to hold my own against big mobs lots of times tanking, but that's with displacement and damn good clerics backing me up. I've also had a number of times where I've gotten throughly chewed up, generally by a crit. It's really not an issue of staying around tanking a mob, that's not that dangerous for a ranger in and of itself if they have a feel for how many hp they're losing a round and can gauge when to flee. It's when a crit comes through and throws that off. I view situations where I wind up tanking a lot like a game of craps, sometimes I (or another ranger) do an unbelievable job, other times we get get smacked around a lot but still can keep going, and then there are the times when snake-eyes comes up No one expects us to tank well, especially ourselves, but no one expects a 500 hp crit either.
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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
Ranger tanking is a strange issue. The class HAS had a role as tertiary tanks that aren't going to perform as well as a pet, warrior, or anti/pali but better than caster in the past and it's reflected in the design of the class (and was discussed in some of the early discussions on the class with Miax during alpha), but tanking is much more hp and spell and to a lesser degree third tanking skill dependent now and nothing can really be done to the class IMO to renew its role as a tertiary tank in light of these changes. I've been able to hold my own against big mobs lots of times tanking, but that's with displacement and damn good clerics backing me up. I've also had a number of times where I've gotten throughly chewed up, generally by a crit. It's really not an issue of staying around tanking a mob, that's not that dangerous for a ranger in and of itself if they have a feel for how many hp they're losing a round and can gauge when to flee. It's when a crit comes through and throws that off. I view situations where I wind up tanking a lot like a game of craps, sometimes I (or another ranger) do an unbelievable job, other times we get get smacked around a lot but still can keep going, and then there are the times when snake-eyes comes up No one expects us to tank well, especially ourselves, but no one expects a 500 hp crit either.
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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
I think we're getting off topic . . . but I thought I'd chime in (hey, noone even said 'BOO' about my idea about fixing the shrugging quandry! *Swat*)
Rangers can tank. . . but there's some rules you gotta remember. hell. let me make a new thread =)
Sorry! (anyway, make shrugging like missile shield! reduce the damage by %, not 100%!)
=)
whoeverIbe
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Rangers can tank. . . but there's some rules you gotta remember. hell. let me make a new thread =)
Sorry! (anyway, make shrugging like missile shield! reduce the damage by %, not 100%!)
=)
whoeverIbe
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B>They don't stand much of a chance at all. in zones such as CC or astral or avernus, almost every mob (if not every) will shrug off spells. Most classes can accept this and focus on buffing the hitters. Invokers have no buffs and are rendered almost useless in these zones. I was wondering, could invokers maybe get some spells that are !shrug? maybe a spell that can only target dragons (or undead or elementals etc.) and get through their shrugs ?
just a thought!
Dalar</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
back to the point.. mr sucks :P
<B>They don't stand much of a chance at all. in zones such as CC or astral or avernus, almost every mob (if not every) will shrug off spells. Most classes can accept this and focus on buffing the hitters. Invokers have no buffs and are rendered almost useless in these zones. I was wondering, could invokers maybe get some spells that are !shrug? maybe a spell that can only target dragons (or undead or elementals etc.) and get through their shrugs ?
just a thought!
Dalar</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
back to the point.. mr sucks :P
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- Sojourner
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- Sojourner
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ponder,
i could think of many fights and zones i would much rather not do without an invoker or 2. the zones id prefer melee heavy are rather rare and in most cases not zones but single fights involving dragons.
oh and id love to see the 10 invoker group, but wouldnt care to be involved in the 10 melee spank.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-18-2002).]
i could think of many fights and zones i would much rather not do without an invoker or 2. the zones id prefer melee heavy are rather rare and in most cases not zones but single fights involving dragons.
oh and id love to see the 10 invoker group, but wouldnt care to be involved in the 10 melee spank.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-18-2002).]
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- Sojourner
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Seattle, WA
I rolled that alt and was suprised to see a bunch of chickens laugh at me, and then proceed to kick my @ss when i kept on aborting my magic missle.
A chicken half kills you with it's mighty hit!
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"Incoming force missles have the right of way!"
Dalen the super paly.
Aram the novice paly.
A chicken half kills you with it's mighty hit!
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"Incoming force missles have the right of way!"
Dalen the super paly.
Aram the novice paly.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by combatmedic:
<B>I rolled that alt and was suprised to see a bunch of chickens laugh at me, and then proceed to kick my @ss when i kept on aborting my magic missle.
A chicken half kills you with it's mighty hit!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Which is odd because it was changed in alpha that first circle spells don't stutter.
<B>I rolled that alt and was suprised to see a bunch of chickens laugh at me, and then proceed to kick my @ss when i kept on aborting my magic missle.
A chicken half kills you with it's mighty hit!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Which is odd because it was changed in alpha that first circle spells don't stutter.
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