Classes

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
Daz
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Classes

Postby Daz » Wed Jun 26, 2002 2:30 am

With the immense amount of work that the staff has put into balancing the characters, bards, elementalists, and rogues coming to mind immediately . . . there are really no classes that do not have some method of contributing to the group atmosphere. However, I am curious about exp tables.

Why should it be easier to level a rogue than an enchanter? If the classes are balanced, shouldn't there be a universal experience table? The class differences will sort out their own checks and balances (i.e. - warriors will still get faster xp for tanking, hitters/nukers will get damage xp, and healers will get healing xp.) I think giving rogues an easier chart than enchanters is nothing more than either a) making a powerful class easy to level, or b) making a difficult class hard to level.

Just how much difference does this really make beyond the game itself. Grouping is really a thing of the past for leveling. Now that the main playerbase is mostly at zoning level, we have a mass of alts that only xp in ways to level themselves quickly. What does this mean? New players are being alienated from experience because for a twinked alt, they are usually just baggage. I tried to group . . . and, well - sadly it was just too much trouble and no benefit to grouping. True, we have the 'conversation' aspect, but towards the goal of leveling, which - i think - is the point of experience, exp with more than 3 people is bad.

I hope that when class balance is 'achieved' that we can perhaps address the issues of experience, grouping, and the playerbase of sojourn. To any other player of sojourn - sojourn at one time I feel was in the top 3 muds to be found on the internet. While I still think Sojourn is great, the game dwindles. It is rare to see 'true' new players, and often I don't seem them for very long, before they seem to wander away. Do any of you have any ideas or desires to see more/new players on Sojourn? I am hopeful that the new web page that was spoken of will help, but I think the players need to do something for their part, as well. There are numerous sites where people go to 'find' muds, mudconnector, one of the biggest - shows only 2 player reviews of our site. There are sites that rank muds according to player input/voting - sojourn isn't even top 10 on those. Lets all go do our part. Vote for sojourn. Take the time to write a review or comment for a web site. Tell a friend, put a tattoo on your back, whatever floats your boat.



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-Daz Proudwolf, Tapestry Pirate
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FS: All my irrelevant psychology textbooks.
Rurga
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Postby Rurga » Wed Jun 26, 2002 3:18 am

While I agree with some aspects of your post, mostly that it is hard to get levels at that low of a level due to some of the reasons you stated, I disagree with a universal exp table type thing. Personally I think only those dedicated to the class they play, ie a necro who goes lich should play that class. Necro exp tables are horrid, ask a necro. Imagine the lich table when you remort. Long winded speech short, i'm happy the way the exp tables are, I do think though younger level things should be looked it. Maybe add a multiplier for damage on spells up till 11th or something(I think this has been mentioned before on this bbs) something to keep the new people going and what not.

Well, I think that was a long winded enough post for my likes. I'll await the responses.

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Rurga - The Sigil
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 26, 2002 9:25 am

somewhat agree. don't think that all classes exping at the same rate. will change anything.

The existing group exp penalty sorely detracts from folks (new or old) ability to get groups.

People will exp however it can be gained the fastest. I suggested a couple times that the group modifier for exp be looked at and heavily modified. Exping in a 8 man group is pure shit compared to a good 2-4 man group.

perhaps there needs to be a negative modifier for exping solo. perhaps it should be based on 4, and significantly more negative the smaller the group gets and increase positively as the group size does.

but think again is this what you really want? slower exp for folks that have already done play days of exp? people to reach level 50 even faster (we already made 1-45 10% easier and gave classless mobs an exp boost)?

And ultimately those with friends are always gonna level faster. Nothing can compare to having a friend sit around and stone/haste/heal/tank for you. or are we gonna make it so shitty that when there are few people you might as well log off spawning a vicious cycle?

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-26-2002).]
Rurga
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Postby Rurga » Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:53 am

Dunno how many people really enjoy solo exp. I cant stand it personally. I always group if I can. Usually you can find me leading a train of people around. May not be the best exp but it's all alot of people have sometimes. Groups > Solo I think.

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Zoldren
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Postby Zoldren » Wed Jun 26, 2002 12:32 pm

I like solo some of my chars much better than groups.. then again i also like grouping some of my chars much more than solo... depends on the class and how you want to play them
nedle
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Postby nedle » Wed Jun 26, 2002 3:41 pm

a group bonus of some sort would defintely help encourage grouping for xp, or at least make it a bit more worthwhile, as a chanter any group over three is a waste of time (unless your looking for low-impact mudding)even jot grid is pushing it if you have over 5 folks...killing the solo xp would be horrible though, for one solo xp at times is great particularly for the 4 or 5 classes that solo well...also time wise there nothing better then hoping on for a few kills and then heading back to work, enough of this game already caters to those that have the many hours to devote to it (and rightfully so) but if you got less xp soloing than you get now a) you'd further alienate those folks that can no longer afford to spend countless hrs in a row mudding but still want to and love playing and b) you'd put at disadvantage the couple classes that are great at soloing but have harsh xp tables.

xp tables shouldnt be equal, some of the classes have a great solo game which makes them extremely valueable and some of those classes are vital to the point the zone group wont happen if there's isnt one in the group. (never seen a group not happen cause no ranger wanted to come) if your make the classes easier to level more people will play them at the low levels but not necessairly at the higher levels, how many of what play probably has more to do with what individuals like doing in a group (tank, hit, heal, support spells)than how hard they are to level.

bottom line: solo xping rocks (and i dont mean the 50th lvl gear on the 10th level guy - just the normal 40th level gear on a 47th lvl guy) dont take it away...

Nedle the halfling chanter
Karikhan
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Postby Karikhan » Wed Jun 26, 2002 8:43 pm

altho i wish enchanter xp tables were lower per se ... i'd have to argue against lowering them ..

enchanters at high levels .. OWN ... i think it all balances out in the power gain

hmmm does that even make sense??

but imho .. a lvl 50 chanter is uber powerful ... so we should be harder to level ...

i personally have no idea how the xp is divided but i assume its exponential ... ie if you get 1500 for one mob solo .. its 500 each when split in a threee man group??

i would LOVE to know how stone/scale and healing experience compares to tank xp ...

anywho its all just conjecture on my part

see ya Image



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Ambar -= Big Pimpin' =-
Mishre
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Postby Mishre » Wed Jun 26, 2002 9:20 pm

Your pierce ---> ATOMIZES <-- Marvin the Martian.
You hear the rattling death cry of Marvin the Martian.
You receive 391 experience points.
You grab 38292 gold coins from a corpse.

hehe.. ahh the good ol' days when i first started mudding Image its too bad we can't know how much exp we gained from kills..hits, healing, stoning.. would be neat to know but im sure most of us never will.. Image

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Mishri }-Sentinel-{ Shades of Twilight
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Wed Jun 26, 2002 9:40 pm

"Why should it be easier to level a rogue than an enchanter? If the classes are balanced, shouldn't there be a universal experience table? The class differences will sort out their own checks and balances (i.e. - warriors will still get faster xp for tanking, hitters/nukers will get damage xp, and healers will get healing xp.) I think giving rogues an easier chart than enchanters is nothing more than either a) making a powerful class easy to level, or b) making a difficult class hard to level. "

The problem is that the classes AREN'T balanced. As much as the rogue class has been upgraded from its previous thief and assassin variants, it nowhere near approaches the utility of a cleric or enchanter or the damage of an invoker or necro. Uneven exp tables are used when some classes are significantly more powerful than others, but I find it a very flawed tool for balance. The dedicated are always going to eventually get to the higher levels of power with time. In the extra time it takes to get an enchanter to 50 compared to a rogue to 50, the rogue is no longer gaining power with experience while the enchanter continues to grow. In earlier editions of D&D, the uneven exp tables weren't as big of a deal since campaigns rarely wound up hitting level 20, most of the time players would start over by around level 13-15 and would have taken many months or a few years to get to that point, but it doesn't work so well for a persistent environment IMO.

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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
Waelos
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Postby Waelos » Thu Jun 27, 2002 5:09 pm

*laugh* are people _still_ really this in the dark about the power of the rogue class? Please. Guess I'll have to detail this for you people. What makes an enchanter so powerfull? Hrmm Blind? Para? o my. yes. What do elite rogues have access to? Blind poison? Para poison? Hrmmm. If _that_ doesn't spell it out for you people I'm afraid there is little help for ya *wink*

Oh, and no. I do not accept the argumet 'but the poisons are sooo hard to get'. If you are an above average rogue you have more plat than you know what to do with and have the ability to get just about anything at a whim.

But on topic, I have to say that if classes are truely balanced (which they aren't yet) then perhaps EXP tables should be even. Then again, part of the balancing process could be that some classes are harder to level than others. Though, I would have to say this is not a good tactic in my view, as exp will always come. It is always available. You WILL get 50 eventually. Classes that rocket to 50 aren't going to get any special benefits for getting there faster. . . so XP table balancing isn't really a great option, I think.

Anyway, enjoy your days!

Lost

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Azralek Silvermist
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Postby Azralek Silvermist » Thu Jun 27, 2002 5:46 pm

Enchanters arent uber powerful

The only benefit we have above and beyond most classes are that along with clerics we have the least problems getting groups.

Azmaell/Azralek
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Thu Jun 27, 2002 5:50 pm

I think Enchanters and Rogues are similar in power at high levels. Of course, it's difficult to compare them and you have to think beyond just raw fighting abilities.

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rurga:
<B>While I agree with some aspects of your post, mostly that it is hard to get levels at that low of a level due to some of the reasons you stated, I disagree with a universal exp table type thing. Personally I think only those dedicated to the class they play, ie a necro who goes lich should play that class. Necro exp tables are horrid, ask a necro. Imagine the lich table when you remort. Long winded speech short, i'm happy the way the exp tables are, I do think though younger level things should be looked it. Maybe add a multiplier for damage on spells up till 11th or something(I think this has been mentioned before on this bbs) something to keep the new people going and what not.

Well, I think that was a long winded enough post for my likes. I'll await the responses.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wholeheartedly disagree with the last part of your post. I respect your opinion, and I can see that you must have put much thought into it, but I must say I dislike your conclusion.

What you are proposing (making lowlevel leveling easy) would open the floodgates for everyone to roll casters, even more than is already done. This is not good. In my experience, more people would prefer to play caster than melee, and will do so given an equal opportunity.

It is hardship and sacrifice that makes a good player. This is true for melee classes as well as casters, but I have found it to be more glaringly evident with casters.

Further, what will happen to the n00bs who had such a great, easy time leveling up as enchanters or the like, and then hit the higher levels where fights require thought? They quit, in disgust. This is a worse fate to condemn the mud to than having n00bs quit at level 1. Their going from level 1 to 25 involves a significant resource drain on those around them, which I would not begrudge a newbie, but for the fact that these newbies will not actually stick around for the long run. Personally, that makes me incredibly frustrated. I don't know about the rest of you, however, so that last part is my opinion.

I'm still kind of sleepy atm, perhaps I'll post/edit later, but basically I am opposed to any easing of lowlevel caster xp, because it will just make newbies quit at a later point in time ('aw man, no artifacts? This mud isn't a cakewalk after all?')

Finally, I'd like to remind Lost and Co. that there are a LOT of people (in my memory) that never got 50 the first few times they were highlevel.

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