The following changes have taken place to the zone since the invasion rules were promulgated:
1) The valkyrie that loaded at tree to inform the mud that invasion has loaded, was removed.
2) Two trolls were put in astral to guard the tree, meaning you need a group in order to get to jot and check for invasion or any other rares for that matter.
3) Items that had previously been locatable only during invasion, such as the huge black sword, were made !locate.
The net result of these changes: You cannot know if invasion loaded unless you bring a group to kill the trolls, and then enter the zone.
The current invasion rule is that the first group to get 12 people to the zone has their choice of the two invasion eq spots. This rule was written when people were able to find out about invasion within minutes of a boot. It assumes that many groups will know about the invasion load simultaneously, and race each other to get there first. However, it is now significantly more difficult to learn this fact.
This rule was a compromise and subject to a lot of criticism. The purpose of the rule, which it accomplished, was to keep people from racing each other while in the zone. The race therefore was to get people to the zone as quick as possible. The limiting number, 12, was criticized because it is very possible to do Glammad with less than 12 people. A group could be in the zone with 8 people working its way for an hour to Glammad, only to have a third group (this one with 12 people) show up and get a CLAIM to Glammad. This seems very unfair.
Another problem was that it created the only situation in the mud where a second group could come into a zone that a group was already doing, and actually be allowed to go in without the first group's permission. This counters the very simple and functional doctrine of 'one zone - one group'.
Perhaps the rules should be modified at this point, given the changes to the zone, to give some sort of advantage to the first group that gets to the zone, regardless of the number of people in it?
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
Invasion Rules
The rule that a second group can just come along and be able to claim Glammad after a group has already started should definately be looked at. The last 1/2 dozen invasions I've done a group has started into the zone with 12+ people and had a second group come in 15 minutes later because they heard invasion had loaded. They'll fold and sneak over to Glammad, kill him, and leave zone with 1/2 of the invasion equip for a 1/2 hour work while the group doing the palace spends another 3 hours finishing the zone off.
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kiryan
- Sojourner
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are you forgetting the 45 minutes all bets are off rule? after 45 minutes whomever is in zone has whatever they have. your 8 man group can claim all invasion or glammad or whatever at 45:01.
I don't think the rules need changing. However, if yall really want to change the rules, let me throw in some suggestions.
8 to claim glammad, 12 to claim palace. once you state a claim and walk east you cant change. 45 minutes zone belongs to any groups already within. If an 8 man group is in zone claiming glammad, another 8 man group can enter but must leave if a third 12 man group enters before 45:01. If the second 8 man group gets 12 to zone, not just grouped, then they may claim palace per the rules. And some common sense stuff, you cant claim shit without 1 cleric and at least one enchanter or elementalits or illusionist and at least 1 PC tank. At least 4 people in the group must be fully eqd.
No group switching games once in zone (walk e), you can add people but not people from other groups already in zone unless the other in zone group gives up its claim and leaves zone with no intention of returning. In this rare scenario, if a third group had been refused from zone, an invitation must be extended to the leader to claim and the 45 minute rule + basic rules are discounted for that leader only, if he has logged or gone to an alt, ie not easily reachable in game, then his claim is lost and 45 minute and basic invasion rules back in effect.
other stupid scenarios, if a group of 12 kills trolls then they get right of choice regardless of who steps e first unless a group in zone from preboot (god reboot, although you really should gate astral then go kill trolls and do the zone). Same for a group of 8 killing trolls can claim Glammad without stepping e first (however, they can not then sit at tree wait till they get 12 and change claim). If the situation is a couple people unrent from camp/ld in Brimir for instance, i suggest you go to astral and kill trolls rather than gate a group into brimir (or where ever).
If there are corpses in zone, a CR group may enter regardless of other factors. If they meet the requirements they can also claim. Grid rares they happen across are fair game, however, they need to make their way to corpse and leave in good faith, not go rare hunting.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-23-2002).]
I don't think the rules need changing. However, if yall really want to change the rules, let me throw in some suggestions.
8 to claim glammad, 12 to claim palace. once you state a claim and walk east you cant change. 45 minutes zone belongs to any groups already within. If an 8 man group is in zone claiming glammad, another 8 man group can enter but must leave if a third 12 man group enters before 45:01. If the second 8 man group gets 12 to zone, not just grouped, then they may claim palace per the rules. And some common sense stuff, you cant claim shit without 1 cleric and at least one enchanter or elementalits or illusionist and at least 1 PC tank. At least 4 people in the group must be fully eqd.
No group switching games once in zone (walk e), you can add people but not people from other groups already in zone unless the other in zone group gives up its claim and leaves zone with no intention of returning. In this rare scenario, if a third group had been refused from zone, an invitation must be extended to the leader to claim and the 45 minute rule + basic rules are discounted for that leader only, if he has logged or gone to an alt, ie not easily reachable in game, then his claim is lost and 45 minute and basic invasion rules back in effect.
other stupid scenarios, if a group of 12 kills trolls then they get right of choice regardless of who steps e first unless a group in zone from preboot (god reboot, although you really should gate astral then go kill trolls and do the zone). Same for a group of 8 killing trolls can claim Glammad without stepping e first (however, they can not then sit at tree wait till they get 12 and change claim). If the situation is a couple people unrent from camp/ld in Brimir for instance, i suggest you go to astral and kill trolls rather than gate a group into brimir (or where ever).
If there are corpses in zone, a CR group may enter regardless of other factors. If they meet the requirements they can also claim. Grid rares they happen across are fair game, however, they need to make their way to corpse and leave in good faith, not go rare hunting.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-23-2002).]
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kiryan
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heh cause childish players try to claim something they had no shot at doing, fought intensely amongst themselves, and ultimately involved the gods.
downgrading all invasion eq would've solved the problem nicely imo and set a good precedent. Involve us in your petty squabbles and we'll fix it good.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-23-2002).]
downgrading all invasion eq would've solved the problem nicely imo and set a good precedent. Involve us in your petty squabbles and we'll fix it good.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-23-2002).]
Whats the necessity for the Invasion rules?..whats so wrong with first come first serve?
The dual-group thing is pretty lame. The only rationalization I can see is because there is so much gear during invasion counting the standard Jot lewt.
From what I understand, the black swords the fire giants have still make invasion easy to detect immediately, something about 30 being located rather than the standard 2 in jot or some such. So now it's a race to cast locate object instead of checking valkyrie.
There needs to be some consistency with the zone rules. Every other zone short of Tiamat has a first come first serve basis, and there is no minute count or group member number count. Why does Jot invasion have to be different?.. are we going to make special rules for Elemental Tower Invasions and Gith invasion soon too?
Just some thoughts.. simplicity could be a fix here.
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Ensis Inferni
Bish Enterprises Inc.
All Rights Reserved
Copyright 1999 Fydollaho Productions.
The dual-group thing is pretty lame. The only rationalization I can see is because there is so much gear during invasion counting the standard Jot lewt.
From what I understand, the black swords the fire giants have still make invasion easy to detect immediately, something about 30 being located rather than the standard 2 in jot or some such. So now it's a race to cast locate object instead of checking valkyrie.
There needs to be some consistency with the zone rules. Every other zone short of Tiamat has a first come first serve basis, and there is no minute count or group member number count. Why does Jot invasion have to be different?.. are we going to make special rules for Elemental Tower Invasions and Gith invasion soon too?
Just some thoughts.. simplicity could be a fix here.
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Ensis Inferni
Bish Enterprises Inc.
All Rights Reserved
Copyright 1999 Fydollaho Productions.
I think it should be the first group to and to kill the trolls and walk into the zone. And there should be no, "I get glammad andyou get palace crap"...I have never heard of "oh you got to CC first?! well, i get everything after Q and you can have all before." It is all under the same zone under the credits. (I am pretty sure). Yeah, jot invasion has some really great items, but we need to be adults about this crap instead of the teenagers we were when we were all out racing for invasion...its sad that a game can make so many regress 5-9 years in the time it takes to find if invasion loaded.
As far as the leaving, what happend to Dorn sucked, leaving a zone should not happen, but since it happend to him he expected the same out of everybody else and he didnt get that. It should not be a rule. If some group is doing jot they should be doing jot after the reboot if they want to, if invasion loads kudos to them for doing jot and being there...lots of luck to ya.
First come first serve, just because there is uber gear there doesn't mean we shouldn't treat it just like we would any other zone... the trolls start the zone and if you have a group that has killed them and moved into the grid then fine, its your zone everybody else stay out just like we do in scorps, clouds, etc...
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Kifle "It Slipped I swear!" ButteryFingers
As far as the leaving, what happend to Dorn sucked, leaving a zone should not happen, but since it happend to him he expected the same out of everybody else and he didnt get that. It should not be a rule. If some group is doing jot they should be doing jot after the reboot if they want to, if invasion loads kudos to them for doing jot and being there...lots of luck to ya.
First come first serve, just because there is uber gear there doesn't mean we shouldn't treat it just like we would any other zone... the trolls start the zone and if you have a group that has killed them and moved into the grid then fine, its your zone everybody else stay out just like we do in scorps, clouds, etc...
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Kifle "It Slipped I swear!" ButteryFingers
'The current invasion rule is that the first group to get 12 people to the zone has their choice of the two invasion eq spots. This rule was written when people were able to find out about invasion within minutes of a boot. It assumes that many groups will know about the invasion load simultaneously, and race each other to get there first. However, it is now significantly more difficult to learn this fact.'
I suggest you go back and read the post from the gods about this.
If you are the 1st group in you get all of jot not just the choice.
Ezza/nula
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I suggest you go back and read the post from the gods about this.
If you are the 1st group in you get all of jot not just the choice.
Ezza/nula
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Eza, you are wrong:
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000025.html
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Goddamned slippery mage.
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000025.html
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Goddamned slippery mage.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>heh cause childish players try to claim something they had no shot at doing, fought intensely amongst themselves, and ultimately involved the gods.
downgrading all invasion eq would've solved the problem nicely imo and set a good precedent. Involve us in your petty squabbles and we'll fix it good.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-23-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kiryan shouts 'Downgrade all!'
The minimum # to claim needs to be looked at, imho.
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"All yer asses are mine, prepare to die mightily by my sadism!" - Malar
<B>heh cause childish players try to claim something they had no shot at doing, fought intensely amongst themselves, and ultimately involved the gods.
downgrading all invasion eq would've solved the problem nicely imo and set a good precedent. Involve us in your petty squabbles and we'll fix it good.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-23-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kiryan shouts 'Downgrade all!'
The minimum # to claim needs to be looked at, imho.
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"All yer asses are mine, prepare to die mightily by my sadism!" - Malar
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Personally I liked no holds barred invasion. Whoever can kill the shit, gets the shit. Was loads of fun, but I realize that its a thing of the past...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<B>Personally I liked no holds barred invasion. Whoever can kill the shit, gets the shit. Was loads of fun, but I realize that its a thing of the past...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Personally I liked no holds barred invasion. Whoever can kill the shit, gets the shit. Was loads of fun, but I realize that its a thing of the past...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I loved the no holds barred invasions too, but that was the number 1 source of animosity and tension between rival groups.
Tro "Formerly The Show" HolyAnvil
<B>Personally I liked no holds barred invasion. Whoever can kill the shit, gets the shit. Was loads of fun, but I realize that its a thing of the past...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I loved the no holds barred invasions too, but that was the number 1 source of animosity and tension between rival groups.
Tro "Formerly The Show" HolyAnvil
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kiryan
- Sojourner
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as for free for all, dumb idea imo. Unless you make it a true free for all meaning who ever loots (not kills) gets the eq. Otherwise the hop scotching is totally weak and more importantly so flame bait. We discourage flames amd fighting on the bbs why would we encourage them in game?
theres plenty of gear to share at invasion. plenty of zone for 2 groups to do. Glammad is hands down the booby prize. Wheres the problem? First capable group gets to do zone under the current rules anyways. so they dont get glammad too give me a break. Please correct me if im wrong but no leader has ever claimed Glammad when given the choice cept when it was crashing so often you couldnt complete palace.
Here's my take on the desire to change the rules, first guilds that used to be able to spot 12 anytime they wanted lost players and alienated folks putting them in the situation where they occasionally can't muster 12. Hence the desire to change the rules so they can still be on top even when the current rules dont favor them.
Second, splits are so one sided that its of the utmost importance who leads. Therefore leaders fighting over people to get to 12 so they can claim palace. This has a side effect that unguilded stepping stool people are suddenly stuck (or empowered) making the make or break choice between groups as well as dealing with their own ethics (who asked first, who is nicest to me).
third, evils finally got off their ass and started checking jot regularly.
but im just jaded, truth is probably far different. Change the rules to 8, would help us evils claim zone more often.
ultimately doesnt matter what you do. why change the rules now? they broken? or just don't fit someone's agenda?
theres plenty of gear to share at invasion. plenty of zone for 2 groups to do. Glammad is hands down the booby prize. Wheres the problem? First capable group gets to do zone under the current rules anyways. so they dont get glammad too give me a break. Please correct me if im wrong but no leader has ever claimed Glammad when given the choice cept when it was crashing so often you couldnt complete palace.
Here's my take on the desire to change the rules, first guilds that used to be able to spot 12 anytime they wanted lost players and alienated folks putting them in the situation where they occasionally can't muster 12. Hence the desire to change the rules so they can still be on top even when the current rules dont favor them.
Second, splits are so one sided that its of the utmost importance who leads. Therefore leaders fighting over people to get to 12 so they can claim palace. This has a side effect that unguilded stepping stool people are suddenly stuck (or empowered) making the make or break choice between groups as well as dealing with their own ethics (who asked first, who is nicest to me).
third, evils finally got off their ass and started checking jot regularly.
but im just jaded, truth is probably far different. Change the rules to 8, would help us evils claim zone more often.
ultimately doesnt matter what you do. why change the rules now? they broken? or just don't fit someone's agenda?
Well, my brass trip was wiped out by crash, Invasion loaded, and someone claimed it with like 5 ppl, and then filled their group out to 12.
So neither brass nor jot for me, I guess.
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Deshana group-says 'guys he's a lil ditzy today'
[This message has been edited by moritheil (edited 06-29-2002).]
So neither brass nor jot for me, I guess.
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Deshana group-says 'guys he's a lil ditzy today'
[This message has been edited by moritheil (edited 06-29-2002).]
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