Noob casters

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Kifle
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Noob casters

Postby Kifle » Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:26 pm

I recently made an illusionist and my god is it horrible to get exp...as one of my many hitter/tank chrs i lvled in podville with ease, but with my caster i get critted almost every hit by these things...The only reason i survive the fights are because i have 175 hps at lvl 1. For a true noob this would become very agrivating and most likely end up in quitting the game. It is sad that my shadow bolt does maybe 1 or 2 damage, but on top of that the mobs always dispbelieve the damn things.

Now I am going to be fine, it will just take me a considerable time to get past the first few lvls, but for a noob...well it would take a week to get to lvl 2. I have noticed that most of the low lvl people are not true noobs and have higher lvl alts, in which case they have the equipment to survive. It would be really great to up the playerbase here and one way for that to happen is make the mobs a bit easier to kill, or possibly make the lower lvl spells with !chance for failure on lower lvl mobs/no failure to cast.

Like i said, i will be fine, but it really hurts the new people that come here and i would really like to see some new faces around here.

(edit) one thing also, i realize this is a group oriented mud, but how many lower lvl people can actually find a group? like i stated earlier, this is a mud where most of the lower lvls are actualy highlvl alts, and most of them can solo until around 20/30th lvl and even higher. With this in mind, you just dont want to group usually if you are trying to lvl fast to be able to use your new class in a zone environment...just something to think about Image

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Kifle "It Slipped I swear!" ButteryFingers

[This message has been edited by Kifle (edited 06-21-2002).]
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Postby Zoldren » Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:34 pm

I solod mine to about 20th lvl with eq that was handed to noobs...

"but on top of that the mobs always dispbelieve the damn things." help file says even if disbelieved it still does damage.. just dont look as cool

I have no problem when i do have to solo... use our spells or get a tank *wink*
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:39 pm

not just illusionists... enc have it rough too as do illithids. failing magic missile at level 1 + mobs regenning to full in the time it takes you to remem = hardcore suck. you could easily spend 20 hours trying to make level 2 if you were a real noob.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:54 pm

Thats exaclty what i am saying kiyran...it isnt a good setup for those that are real noobs...yes, us vetrans will stick with it if we really want to play that class, but what is the purpose for somebody that has no friends, isnt in the cliques, doesn't know a lot of ways to cheese exp/mobs/eq...they dont last long and that is the problem here.

I just shot 3 shadow bolts at a sedawi mother...still at few scratches...this is not enough damage for a low lvl person to be dealing...in reality, if some mage came struting into town and shot 3 shadow bolts at some random mother or child, that mother/child would bite it big time. my freaking dagger does 2/3x more damage per round than my magic, which is supposed to be my strong point?

Upgrade noobs!

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Kifle "It Slipped I swear!" ButteryFingers

[This message has been edited by Kifle (edited 06-21-2002).]
Lalisa
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Postby Lalisa » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:36 pm

Well, a true noob would kill raptors around TP with a tiny dagger and would get a notch of exp after killing 4 or 5 of them. Then we get all exited and jump around Image

You are right Kifle, I agree with what you are saying, but I'm afraid this is the way it is supposed to be.
Mages are supposed to be powerful at higher levels and are therefore hard to level, I guess (I have heard this argument a bit too often lately as enchanter).

Another thing I often hear is that this mud is supposed to be hard. If it is hard to level then the whiners will be sorted out from the beginning (another argument I have heard a couple of times on this board Image ).

So I guess we can't both have a hard mud and a mud where it is relatively easy to be a newbie (a real one).
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Postby Rausrh » Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:51 pm

ROFL:
"...in reality, if some mage came struting into town ..."

Where are you living? It's true that the first few levels casters have almost no choice than to melee mobs to death. But perhaps taking a level 1 illusionist to podville and fightings mothers is a bit over your level. Stick to the TP type areas until you get a couple more levels.

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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:04 pm

I played an enchanter for most of last wipe and made it to all of 36th level. I was happy with the character, and never really considered how much exp I got, I was just happy whenever I got a level. After playing a rogue this wipe I've tried to level my little chanter again. Trying to get the experience on her is now so frustrating that I can only take so much of it before I just have to log. It's going to take me forever to get her to a decent level, and if it takes forever so be it, but until she gets to a zonable level she's just not nearly as much fun as she used to be before I knew what it was like on the other side of the experience fence. I suppose ignorance truly was bliss.
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:33 pm

Once I get my TE issues straightened out, Sojourn may see a revised newbie zone come into implementation. You guys are absolutely right and I've been trying to get someone to listen to this plea literally for months. Low level casters NEED a boost to make them more able to survive solo combat. Grouping at level 1 is not healthy for a noobie, who needs to learn how the mud is laid out, the combat system, etc. Having a level 10 walk them to podville and say "don't assist me" will just spawn a higher level newbie.

But anyway, the zonewriting is giving me some problems, and I haven't been able to work on it lately. When it's finish, it will be a REAL area for newbies to learn and level in. No twisty one way passages, no ambiguous ultra-critting mobs.

- Ragorn
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Postby Gort » Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:46 pm

I agree that levelling casters is more challenging than melee class, however, level 1 in podville isn't exactly standard, that's like a white belt trying to take his instructor. Not likely to happen.

TP mobs do get boring, but that type mob, the cute and fuzzy bunnies, Mr. Squirrel, and such are about it for the first few levels if you don't stay in the noob zone. Post that, many go to the antfarm before Podville, and then on to places like the necro lab, SSC, and the Stump. There are things to do, but I agree, there could be more.

Just realize, playing a decked out alt newbie, you're also viewing things with a colored eye. This stuff is easy for your main, but wasn't something you'd consider when you first rolled a character, and started playing. Heck, you'd likely not even know about them if you hadn't played before. That's part of why the TP type stuff is right out of town, so fledgling characters don't walk right into a Marlith Demon or some such ilk.

In short, I'm not necessarily in favor of changing the exp tables, but making more newbie friendly zones is always a good thing.


IMHO.

Toplack

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Postby Rokub » Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:58 pm

Low levels are setup way hard for newbies coming into sojourn. The only way I can see one leveling is grouping. At pwipe you notice how many people grouped? :P Thaz how you level a caster.
It is unfortunate that the newbie area does suck, and that low levels really do suck in sojourn.

Rokub

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cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:17 pm

Suggestions from over half a year ago:


1) The newbie zone... it's so frustrating and confusing. No offense to Cyric I love all his other zones, but I'm afraid this one doesn't quite meet its goal... It's filled with single file rooms, teleport rooms, and all the rooms look alike with. Newbies should have a colorful little town full of mobs that talk, have quests, etcetera - things which draw them into the game. A maze of one-way tunnels is bad Image

2) Easier xp tables up to lvl 10... I realize that getting to level 50 should take a long time indeed, but we can always make xp after lvl 20 a bit harder. For a decked alt it's easy to level, but with no eq, no knowledge of where to go and no friends it's really hard. At level 1-5 a player is either going to be hooked and stay or turned off and leave. If a single > of xp takes an hour, which I've had several people complain about on NHC, I think they'll leave rather than stay. I don't think it hurts anyone if we make it a bit easier at the first levels - once they are hooked, we can always make the later levels harder Image

3) Mobs < lvl 10 shouldn't heal. As it is now, a lot of times a lowbie has to flee because he can't kill the mob in one run. When he gets back it's usually fully healed, which is a real downer. This applies especially to caster newbies, who have an even harder time than warrior classes because they have to remem all the time.

4) To go into the caster classes a more, perhaps raise low level spell damage, or add a multiplier if the player is < lvl 10 (so higher levels don't get this bonus too)? Currently players level 1-5 only have 1 magic missile/whatever, and this doesn't do much damage. Combine this with having to remem, and the mob is usually back at perfect condition.

Also, maybe the healing on lower level clerical spells can be increased? I'm not sure if this has been done already, but a while ago it was so that a cure light only did around 5hp of healing and serious around 20, which was negatable compared to the time it took to mem. Tanks (even non-trolls) could heal faster from their regeneration in the time it took to mem the low heal spells Image

5) Perhaps a bonus xp for grouping < lvl 15 ? Right now everyone's alt just races to 20 solo without grouping newbies, because there is no need to. Newbies are left in the cold. When everyone was starting out after the wipe, it was easy to get groups because everyone was low. Now however there are usually few people their level on and it's hard to kill stuff alone... If grouping under level 20 or 25 gave you 125% or even more xp, people would surely group.

6) Lower death xp loss for levels 1-5 or something. This is when people have no idea how combat works, what to kill, where to go and everything else. They will die from wandering in the wrong places, attacking the wrong mobs, not knowing what to do and a lot more.

7) If at all possible, remove death permanent hitpoint loss for levels 1-10? See 6) on why this hurts newbies Image

8) I like the idea of shops selling more than just a handful of 2ac leather items... my first character was an antipaladin in Bloodstone and I really loved the shops there. They are filled with a lot of items, and I was really looking forward to having the money to buy them someday! It gave me a goal.

Perhaps stores can 'save' things that people sell to them as a boot progresses. If you come to a store after 20 hours of uptime, there are a lot of nice things listed. However, when the mud crashes or reboots, these are all gone. Maybe they can be saved? And a limit of 20 or 30 items, so it doesn't get flooded? If more items are sold, the bottom ones could just be 'popped' off the stack and everything moves down one spot on the list.

9) It would be nice if the guildmasters talked, more specifically if they gave some hints on newbie stuff. For example, the guildmasters in WD could mention that the faerie village or sedawi village east of town is a good training ground, but that the gnolls south of there are dangerous. Or they could mention that another pupil of theirs was not seen again after going to the Waterdeep Cemetary, and that a brave adventurer is needed to go take a look. Stuff that involves newbies, draws them into the game Image


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Postby Kifle » Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:47 pm

I think, from now on, i will just tell cherzra my ideas and he can post for me...thank cherz!

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Postby Corth » Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:52 pm

Good job cherz, every one of those suggestions makes sense.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
combatmedic
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Postby combatmedic » Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:59 pm

Heh, only thing that saved me when i rolled my alt caster was Lilithelle giving me some good armor and a good dagger. The dagger did 10X the damage that my magic missile did. Every newbie should come with a Lilithelle!

BTW Aram wasn't high enough lvl/grouped enough to actually get any eq for a caster heh...

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Postby Kerath » Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:25 pm

Extremely well-said, Cherzra. After time + effort, I've moved somewhat into the 'stacked alt' category, but I still acutely remember what it was like as a bare bones newbie, and I've lost several friends that I tried to introduce because it was just too rough to get started. There should be some way for players to get a good start without having to beg for eq or be powerleveled.

I still love solo grig sprites, though! Mir forest > you.

- Kagrar/Zasadavar
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Postby Guest » Fri Jun 21, 2002 11:21 pm

One thing on the list that I thought I should make a comment on is low-level exp. Mobs that don't have a class (warrior, cleric, etc) that are low-level now are significantly more experience than they were at the beginning of the wipe. I think that went in 3 or 4 months ago.

Experience players know that the other mobs are still more valuable, but they're also significantly more difficult to kill. This was intended to make it a little easier on newer players, who frequently don't know how to tell if something is skilled, etc.
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Jun 21, 2002 11:55 pm

About six months ago, Cherzra, Miax, and I got together and cracked heads over this stuff. Cherzra already relayed a lot of what was said over our rather short-lived email conversation, but I'll throw out some other stuff:

I propose giving burning hands to every mage-type caster in first circle and increasing its damage. One magic missile SUCKS for killing things, and most mage type casters don't get anything better until well after the "frustrated newbie breaking point." Giving level 1 casters a spell that hits for about the same power as 3 magic missiles will help them get early kills, without going through all the frustration of "your magic missile flies harmlessly into the air." In addition, burning hands is a spell nobody uses, so changing it for the better hardly affects high levels.

The newbie zone is, in fact, a town. Two of them actually, one for each side of the race barrier. They're connected, with a levelling ground full of mobs in the middle. There's a library in each town for newbies to read up in, as well as a weapon shop, armor shop, item shop, bank, inn, and a universal guildmaster. The mobs talk (this is what I need help with), there's ambient noise, the map makes sense, and there are even quests which send the characters raiding into the opposite-alignment town. The shops will sell items of value, and there will be ample food and light for all. That is, when I can get everything working Image

I've rewritten several help files, including the FAQ. I've made up dictionaries of over 100 common mud terms and acronyms.

The barrier I'm facing is getting staff feedback on some of this stuff. I've sent multiple emails to Miax with both suggestions and actual data for implementation, and so far I haven't gotten any sort of response. That's why this stuff has sat on my computer for 6 months now, so far I've been unable to get anything past the "well send it to me and I'll have a look" phase... and I've been there three times.

- Ragorn
More frustrated than the newbies
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Postby Daz » Sat Jun 22, 2002 12:07 am

cherzra - when you die at those levels you dont lose xp

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Postby Disoputlip » Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:19 am

I think mabye experienced players insist on attacking mobs that con lot of luck on level 1 because they can do so with melee types.

But, it is really not that hard to level if you just go for the level 1 mobs instead.


/Disoputlip
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Jun 22, 2002 5:40 pm

I started out two necromancers last month, by the way. One drow and one human. Fighting with simply newbie equipment, I often had to do runs on mobs in both DK and near the turning point. Newbie mage offense is so low and their spells are so weak that it was often a contest to see who would hit first when we were both at awful to determine the victor.

Plus it took so long to memorize my one magic missile that by the time I did, the mob had healed 2 status notches. One magic missile wouldn't even take a kobold slave from excellent to small wounds, but in the 28 seconds of mem, he'd heal from nasty back to small.

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- Ragorn
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Postby moritheil » Sun Jun 23, 2002 9:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B>I recently made an illusionist and my god is it horrible to get exp...as one of my many hitter/tank chrs i lvled in podville with ease, but with my caster i get critted almost every hit by these things...The only reason i survive the fights are because i have 175 hps at lvl 1.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Podville emphatically is not a place where level 1's should be going. Most of the mobs are good exp at level 9 or 10, so it should be no surprise that they crit level 1's like mad.

Personally, any time I see someone under lvl 4 in podville, I tell them that ant farm is a far better place to xp.

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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:35 pm

Not to mention that you're probably getting beyond your max exp per kill, but having to heal completely between each round, therefore not maximizing your experience gain. Killing smaller mobs faster would probably net more exp in less time.
Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:39 am

Like i said guys, i am not the one i am concerned about, i know a lot more places to kill than just podville. I am concerned about the actual noobs. Its a bit too tough for newcomers i say, thats all. And, too hard means less newcomers wanting to stay and see how much fun it is when you are high lvl.

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Kifle "It Slipped I swear!" ButteryFingers
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:26 am

People who are newbie helpers should ask themselves if they really want to be one.

80% of the time, the requests for help come from good raced newbies. Time and time again, these end up being answered by Todrael or myself, who luckily happen to know goodie xp zones and the like. Then when I type who helper, it turns out there are easily 5 other GOOD raced helpers on, who simply ignore the questions about where to xp, where gob caves are, how to scribe, what weapon is good, where to get eq, how to use something, etcetera.

If you don't have the damn courtesy to answer at least one question out of ten (and YES, often they ask 10 questions over the course of 10 minutes), you should be ashamed.

Yes, occasionally other people answer them, but 75% of the time, if Tod and I stay quiet, the question will just go unanswered. Ask yourself if you shouldn't be ashamed. Hell I've lead scorps and still answered NHC in detail, so any excuse of 'too busy' is hereby null and void.

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Postby cherzra » Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:40 am

Never mind, nobody cares anyway.

[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 06-24-2002).]
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Postby Todrael » Mon Jun 24, 2002 2:33 pm

I like helping newbies.

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Postby Ragorn » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:37 pm

If I'm online and not in a fight where I have to rescue, I answer 100% of the questions that come across NHC. Todrael just types faster than me (RAUGHHRR!!!) Image

There are lots of other goodie helpers who participate. Sometimes I disagree with how people handle things (if someone says "where should I go?" telling him "3n2e15n3e2sue2n3ds" isn't going to help), but a lot of the time, some effort is being made.

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- Ragorn
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Postby Galkar » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:41 pm

Where do those directions go anywho? Image

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Postby Izizimmez » Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>Sometimes I disagree with how people handle things (if someone says "where should I go?" telling him "3n2e15n3e2sue2n3ds" isn't going to help), but a lot of the time, some effort is being made.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, one time I asked a certain unnamed person if they could point me in the direction of the beginning of the rift quest. They told me the last mob to go to (not telling me it was the last mob) and after trying to figure out how the hell I could advance the quest through this mob for 15 minutes the person shows up with all the quest items and gives them to me. Image Boy was I upset. And they defend themself by saying that I never could have figured it out by myself. Bah!

After much moral dilemna I decided I might as well take the items, complete the quest, say thank you, let it drop and not deal with that person anymore unless I have to.

But that's off-topic! Noob casters are hard to level! Let Rags do his thing.

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Postby moritheil » Fri Jun 28, 2002 4:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>If I'm online and not in a fight where I have to rescue, I answer 100% of the questions that come across NHC. Todrael just types faster than me (RAUGHHRR!!!) Image
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha, I have beaten tod to the punch, while on telnet
*flex*

This thread inspires me; I'm gonna dig up an old post regarding n00b leveling difficulty.

Stand by...

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Postby moritheil » Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:02 pm

PS - Iziz, this is going to hurt, but I have to say something in the interests of justice.

You have no right to be angry at that person.

Why?

What did you think you were asking for when you asked him the question? In your mind, you were asking him just for vague hints - that I understand well.

But you were opening yourself up to be fair game for the sort of thing he did. And that's just the nature of the game. It may feel crappy, but it's within his/her rights to answer your question the way he did. You took a chance asking, and it looks like you didn't like what you got. Next time, steel yourself for the possibility, or else be more specific when you ask the question ("I DON'T want this handed to me, because I think this quest is fun, but could you give me just a vague idea of where to head?")

Happy r0x0ring.

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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:39 pm

I really try to refrain from asking for too many hints, but I've still asked my share.. I have to agree that it's annoying when you ask somebody to not tell you everything and they do anyway. Where's the fun in figuring it out then?

You tell so-and-so "Please don't tell me the whole quest, but I'm kind of stumped, could you give me a vague clue?"

So-and-so tells you everything and more including the color of their mother's underpants.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:42 pm

Rylan just wants to move his mom's buisness along, ash. She gets slow weeks on in the colder months, so he thinks that sometimes it will help if you know that her underwear are sexy.

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Kifle "It Slipped I swear!" ButteryFingers

[This message has been edited by Kifle (edited 06-28-2002).]
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Postby Grungar » Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:10 pm

Since when is grey and moth-eaten sexy?

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Postby Guest » Sun Jun 30, 2002 7:37 am

In the long term, there is a plan forming for a newbie zone that will be quite a bit nicer than what we have now. It's in the discussion phase, but we do plan on implementing something much easier to learn from.

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