attack, flee, attack flee, glad they don't track

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Wobb
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attack, flee, attack flee, glad they don\'t track

Postby Wobb » Sun Jun 23, 2002 5:42 pm

I don't know if this bothers anyone else, but I have to say it has become the single most annoying part of the game.

In order to go through zones with less "hassle" (meaning death), as of late leaders have invoked the rush/flee method on mobs that don't track. There are 3 places in particular that really bother me:

Loki, Thrym, and the last room of SF. In order to make things challenging, the area creators have STACKED these rooms with casters, and especially SF because they are wraith (and the sheer number), makes it difficult.

I consider this a detriment to the game. Players have been reduced to running in for one round and fleeing. This is bullshit.

I don't believe for a second that if the King of the frost giants or a god, were suddenly bombarbed by a bunch of outsiders, that they would sit in their throne room and ignore it, no hell no, they would be after that group in no time.

I think thrym and loki should track, and you should get rid of the jarls. The jarl's at this point in time are the non-creative-man's substitute for difficulty.

And SF is the worst. All consideration of gameplay has gone out the window. Now, you can blame the players for using the rush/flee method, but who in their right mind would want to go in there and attempt to do it one run? Or even 5 runs? No one will do it. It's suicide. And frankly, its boring as hell. One round, flee, another round flee, heal up. ok again. There are other zones with a hell of a lot better rewards with less risk, what's the point?

That isn't a fantasy game, that's repetive BS.

Wobb

P.S. I'm sure many of you are wondering why the hell is Wobb posting he hasn't played in months. Well, I would love to play, but the game in my opinion is suffering, while amidst the greatest potential RP adventure ever (see "time of chaos" in the Announcements section) some standard zones are filled with twinky shit (for lack of a better term).
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:25 pm

Alternatively, fights can be changed so you are either able to finish them in one run, or the mobs can be given the track flag.

With the first alternative, zones will become way too easy. If you can do a room like Loki in 1 run, what's the big deal? With the second, players would get spanked every single time and need to ress or get back and do another run after they recover their eq. The second isn't an option since it's worse than the 'problem' you mention, so that only leaves the first. But then things will be too easy.


Really, I don't see what's bad about leaving fights like Loki the way they are. They are hard, so you need to do multiple runs. To prevent total carnage between runs, the mobs don't track so players can regroup, ress, heal, mem etc.

I understand it's frustrating sometimes, but it's the only real option to make things hard (no, if you can kill it in 1 fight, it's not hard, so don't regale me with e.g. the Artimus fight).



[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 06-23-2002).]
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Postby Karikhan » Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:34 pm

tell the truth Wobb Image you are taking care of your ever so preggers wifey and the little wobblie ..and you have no time to mud!!

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Postby Rokub » Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:09 pm

There is no reason to change the fights. Each fight in the game has its own little spice. That is how its supposed to be.

If you feel there needs to be a zone with the kind of fight you think sojourn lacks, be creative and make your own zone.


Rokub

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Postby Daz » Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:18 pm

I love SF. mikar led the other day - we killed 4 wraiths in our first run at it, that was awesome. then the game crashed after we killed all the wraiths, mog, thak, and 3 of the 4 guardians (which means the last one wouldnt let us loot)

so, we got nothing for our work.

SF - 34
Daz - 0


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Postby Ensis » Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:42 pm

Wobb..posts like this are why Imm's and Area creators and Coders get burned out. Reading this many of us wonder why the imm's dont just tell us all to f*** off and find something else to do.

If you want something done about it, post constructively and politely. If they dont' do anything about your post, more than likely that's not where they want the game to go. If that doesn't jive with what you want, deal with it or move on.

I didn't call Blizzard up and bitch because WC3 didn't get relaased on time :P



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Postby Snurgt » Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:51 pm

I think the area creators and other staff would be more inclined to listen to your ideas and ideas in general if they were posted in a less inflammatory manner.

Using phrases like:
"the single most annoying part of the game"

"are the non-creative-man's substitute for difficulty"

"All consideration of gameplay has gone out the window"

"That isn't a fantasy game, that's repetive BS."

"some standard zones are filled with twinky shit"

will not get your ideas considered. I can only imagine how many dozens or hundreds of hours go into writing a zone/coding new stuff and making sure everything is appropriate/balanced, etc.

I can't speak for the staff, but if I were in their shoes, posts like this would not get much consideration.

Just some thoughts.

Snurgt
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Postby Jegzed » Sun Jun 23, 2002 8:21 pm

I think "loki"-style fights are boring...


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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Sun Jun 23, 2002 9:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B>I think "loki"-style fights are boring...

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have a good point. But ultimately, what does area/eq balancing come down to? Time. It's the rule that a quest that takes longer, should give a better reward. Similarly, it's my understanding that an area that takes a more uber group, or is more demanding in terms of time and effort, should give a better reward.

For the fights you speak of, I believe they are long and painful because they are intended to be long and painful. This is needed to justify the reward.

If you want to do it all in one rush, noone's stopping you. People only do it in runs because that minimizes the deaths. Personally, I think that if you want to make a fight one-shot, just hide the exits to the room. That forces it. Were the staff to do this, I'm sure the complaints would be more voluble than they are with things as they are now.

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Sun Jun 23, 2002 9:14 pm

PS - I actually don't personally find loki/thrym long and painful. Long, perhaps, but not painful, certainly not compared to certain other situations.

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Zoldren
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Postby Zoldren » Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:19 pm

I like it when its done right....

"no hell no, they would be after that group in no time."

and actualy wouldnt a "god/king" send out his hitmen/right hand mans/assassins what have you instead of going himself and chancing an ambush?.. granted it would be fast maybe immediate.. but it wouldnt be him... jot is one of the better most all around zones there is.. leave it be..

and ya after about the 1k time doing jot i would prob be bored too Image
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Postby kiryan » Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:59 am

im starting to enjoy the 1 spell fights. its very telling. you see the morions that dont understand 1 spell and flee, the morions that are afk, the morions warriors that stay in way too long.

Minus invasion second gate house and manscorps king, mogdath is quickly becoming one of my favorite fights. Thrym however is still annoying and probably always will be with the 5 minute para's.

One thing I have been meaning to suggest is that FLEE is too guaranteed. Maybe we need a 1 round lag on flee? or just up the failure rate (but thats just trigger bait). perhaps we could just make the difficulty fleeing scale with the number of enemies (not mobs, agro mobs) in the room.

Anyhow, changing nothing is fine too, making flee fail more combined with waiting on resses could make these fights far more annoying. Im not sure that would be a good idea.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-25-2002).]
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Postby Guest » Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>im starting to enjoy the 1 spell fights. its very telling. you see the morions that dont understand 1 spell and flee, the morions that are afk, the morions warriors that stay in way too long.

Minus invasion second gate house and manscorps king, mogdath is quickly becoming one of my favorite fights. Thrym however is still annoying and probably always will be with the 5 minute para's.

One thing I have been meaning to suggest is that FLEE is too guaranteed. Maybe we need a 1 round lag on flee? or just up the failure rate (but thats just trigger bait). perhaps we could just make the difficulty fleeing scale with the number of enemies (not mobs, agro mobs) in the room.

Anyhow, changing nothing is fine too, making flee fail more combined with waiting on resses could make these fights far more annoying. Im not sure that would be a good idea.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-25-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should have heard the screams when I suggested to a RL friend who plays here that maybe flee should have a half round of lag. Image
vynigumba
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Postby vynigumba » Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:36 pm

what about giving random flag at certain mob?
I mean.. it could be the case that one boot some mobs dont track and another boot they track. (same thing may be with casters.. once is cleric, next time is sorcerer or whatever)

The basic point it to make every fight slightly different. If you know exactly what it is going to happen that is !fun.
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Postby Corth » Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:58 pm

Vyn,

Problem with that is the fight would have to be doable in one run if there is a chance of the mobs tracking. If its doable in one run, then its already easy enough, and theres no point making the mobs !track...

BTW: I'm with Wobb. I detest the multi-run fights. Boring as hell to take out one mob at a time. Not much of a risk doing these fights either because they dont track. Just the same steps each time.. grows old. Would rather do a really difficult fight with tracking mobs any day (such as the pit fiend in MD). More strategy involved when the mobs track, and usually more deaths.

Corth

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Galkar
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Postby Galkar » Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:14 pm

Idea..... Might make things more interesting, although I haven't done one of these fights, I've read enough to know a little about what's going on.


You have Thyrm in a room with a bunch of jarls. Thyrm wouldn't necessarily come after the group, but if the group were to flee out, have 2-3 random jarls give chase. Say for instance there are 6 jarls in the room, make jarls 1, 3, and 5 track during one boot. Then, during second boot, make it 2, 4, and 6 that track.

If this could be done, possibly lower the amount of overall mobs in the room, make it so 2-3 random mobs in the room are set to track, just enough tracking mobs to make luring not so easy.....

Just a thought.


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Postby Galkar » Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:20 pm

Just read yer post Corth, that was kinda what I was trying to address, the issue you brought up with vyn.....

You wouldn't have all mobs track, just several, seems to me it would be spicier if group goes in, kills off a few, then retreats for a rest, and one or two mobs track in and start attacking people...


How about say Thyrm in a room with a squad of guards, and a badass guard commander.... Kill the commander, and all of a sudden, other guards start to track...

Might be better than attack, flee, attack, flee.


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Corth
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Postby Corth » Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:32 pm

problem with that Galkar is you just lure out the mobs that track and the fight becomes a cakewalk.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
Corth
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Postby Corth » Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:34 pm

Idea:

In a room like the last fight in SF, have two groups of mobs, each that track as a group and are doable in one run, but very difficult. You track out the first group and hopefully win that fight, then you charge the second group and hopefully win that one. Each fight would be risky and difficult (though doable in one run), and you avoid the slow boring runs that your currently have there.

Corth

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Shargaas
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Postby Shargaas » Wed Jun 26, 2002 12:26 am

These types of fights that are run as 1 round-flee-repeat do give zones a certain flavor which some people like and some people dislike. I've used this type of fight before but have no plans of using it again for the simple reason that there are easily 20 other ways to make a big fight difficult.

On a side note it is possible to setup mobs to only track after certain other mobs die and randomize it so that the key mob is different each boot. There just is not any zones where mortals have noticed this effect (if any exist) Image
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Wed Jun 26, 2002 1:43 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shargaas:
<B>These types of fights that are run as 1 round-flee-repeat do give zones a certain flavor which some people like and some people dislike. I've used this type of fight before but have no plans of using it again for the simple reason that there are easily 20 other ways to make a big fight difficult.

On a side note it is possible to setup mobs to only track after certain other mobs die and randomize it so that the key mob is different each boot. There just is not any zones where mortals have noticed this effect (if any exist) Image</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks.


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Wobb
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Postby Wobb » Wed Jun 26, 2002 4:19 am

I think my point has come acrossed, although Ensis and Snurgt seem more set on poking at my posting style rather than my content (duh). Obviously all I"m trying to say here with HEAVY EMPHASIS is that these fights where we run in and flee, run in and flee, make the game damn boring. Thrym and Loki are perhaps not the best examples, but they are similar rooms to the ever-obvious SF room I referred to earlier.

Iyachtu, regarding the lag on flee. That doesn't make any sense. Scenario: I'm running for my life but because i'm (stunned|freaked|confused) I'm forced to stop? Hell no, If i'm running for my life, i'm running for my life. If anything, PC's should get a BONUS to moves when they flee because there is so much adrenaline rushing.

My ideas may seem bizarre to some of you, but I've been here since Sojourn. I've seen a lot change and I'm just one of the many voices contributing to the whole. I appreciate a good dialogue for or against anything I say, (provided its the content not the freaking style)and hope that other players who have thoughts on the game will continue to use this medium to voice their opinion despite the negative feedback they may receive from other players.

Hrm I should change my tagline to:

"If you ever need a quick pick-me-up, just stick my balls in your mouth" --Chef, South Park



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Postby Guest » Wed Jun 26, 2002 4:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wobb:
<B>Iyachtu, regarding the lag on flee. That doesn't make any sense. Scenario: I'm running for my life but because i'm (stunned|freaked|confused) I'm forced to stop? Hell no, If i'm running for my life, i'm running for my life. If anything, PC's should get a BONUS to moves when they flee because there is so much adrenaline rushing.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It makes absolute sense. It's also not something I suggested should go in. The failure to flee suggests that you didn't manage to make it out of the room, due to the environment (aka things/creatures are in your way).

That's just one of those things that makes sense, but would be a bit harsh.


[This message has been edited by Iyachtu (edited 06-26-2002).]
Dugmaren
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Postby Dugmaren » Wed Jun 26, 2002 5:48 am

Lets hear some suggestions.

a. mobs don't track - do it in runs
b. single mobs track - lure them out
c. group of mobs track - massmorph & tag

Give me a good d. and I'll be more then happy to kill hundreds of you poor mortals.

Dug
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Postby Jegzed » Wed Jun 26, 2002 6:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dugmaren:
<B>Lets hear some suggestions.

a. mobs don't track - do it in runs
b. single mobs track - lure them out
c. group of mobs track - massmorph & tag

Give me a good d. and I'll be more then happy to kill hundreds of you poor mortals.

Dug</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

* Massmorph is a TWINK spell which destroys all zones IMHO. It should be yanked.

King of the Manscorpions is probably a tougher fight straight up then Loki and the SF end fight. Still everybody does that fight straight up.



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kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 26, 2002 9:03 am

yep agree on the flee thing, its totally realistic to have a lag. Call it mob blocking, a failed dive for the exit, fumbled the handle to the door, or whatever, for some reason you failed to flee. But with no lag, whatever caused you to fail flee magically disappeared the .2 seconds later when your fleebot kicks in.

I'd like to suggest that we be very careful about imping something like that, and i would take the # of mobs and levels heavily into account when determining flee percentage while ignoring player level or giving a bonus the lower level your level is.

Also, I hate to suggest that we consider something like like !teleport, but the reality is that if were dieing 2x or 3x as much your increasing the amount of time we sit around waiting for folks to ress recover assuming our ressers dont die in the process...

as for getting rid of loki fights, i dont think we should. they do take a certain measure of skill. If you don't believe me grab 15 random people from 40-45 and take them to SF and count the deaths. I've seen a 45 death mogdath trip, I think I've personally died once there as a warrior who got bashed by a quake in around 10 trips.

i think manscorps is a weak ass fight unless you let your quest tank die... then it becomes heinously difficult.

the single most annoying thing in the game was "someone consents you" gsay do i have all your consents, dragging requires consent. thanks for fixing that azuth.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-26-2002).]
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Postby Corth » Wed Jun 26, 2002 9:26 am

Boggle, I heardly ever use massmorph. I must be missing its twink uses! The pain!

Corth

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kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:51 am

another idea would be to add a chance of negatives when you fail a flee. I would suggest a 10% chance to have a bad thing happen if you fail a flee.

1. 50% fall down (no lag)
2. 30% 1 round stun
3. 15% 2 round stun
3. 4% round stun and fall down (bash)
4. 1% stun bash yourself

It shouldnt be so bad cause failing a flee is not exactly a high percentage, and being set to a sitting position is not really all that when its 0 lag (trigger bait). The lower percentage things will kill people occasionally but not all the time and should translate into a subtle shift towards trying to do more things straight up rather than flee. It will also have an sizable impact on flee heal twinking, fleeing plevel alts, and the flee mem robots.

Folks will also prolly use retreat/disengage more often also although i think we should consider reducing the lag on disengage. Its the same lag as retreat? but you can get re-engaged by a switch or a cloud ect...

It will be very important to not count a blocked exit as a fail attempt, nor the few places like skeletons with the flee blocking flag/code. It would be a lot better if we took this opporunity to fix flee so that you don't even try to flee in a blocked exit direction, and to actually randomize it instead of having the predisposition towards north (east, south then west i believe).

as a real world justification, ever get so panicd that you did something stupid like run into a door, didnt duck low enough to get through a window or tripped over your own feet? It happens.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-29-2002).]
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Postby Gromikazer » Sat Jun 29, 2002 1:58 pm

Are you saying remove the lag from flee, but then adding stupid affects to it? Thats like asking for demons to stop summoning demons, but they get * infernos.

Flee is fine. That's why escape is good!
Disengage has SERIOUS twink possibilities. I'm not going to go over them, but it does.
Lastly Retreat lets you go the direction you want, so I don't think that needs to be changed either.

The only thing i'd like to see changed, is if you can't flee in a direction (mobs blocking or some such) that it dosen't attempt to flee that way.

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kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Sun Jun 30, 2002 3:31 am

im fairly certain there is no lag on flee currently...?

I'm saying if we wanted to change something, or make fleeing more dangerous, we could add a random negative when you get that PANIC YOU COULDN'T ESCAPE message. Just enough to make flee not 100% guaranteed, something to make things interesting and occasionally kill people, and not something as heinious as universal 1 round flee lag.

As it stands now, flee is perfect. With a good set of triggers and anything but atrocious luck, you can flee any fight. Well any fight except those stupid exit blocking fights.

What twink things does disengage lag prevent? Which ones are not doable using no lag flee instead of disengage?

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-29-2002).]
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Jun 30, 2002 7:11 am

NOt everyone has a failed-flee trigger.

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Postby Rausrh » Tue Jul 09, 2002 7:12 pm

Hey guys, I heard that Iyachtu is also NOT going to be puting in flying pigs, lets argue about that...

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Postby Sarell » Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:07 am

Agre corth + touk. I think the best solution is that if you hate doing runs then do the fight straight up and call everyone else wusses on several occasions (touk did this on SF, good times..). I usually do runs, but times when we have had the power to do say invasion straight up certainly take the cake for that kick ass feeling. If want to make the fight a bit harder perhaps we could add some interesting loads into the fight, say when 2.jarl dies loki calls for a pack of tracking giants to enter from the secret room ( wouldnt really enter jsut load) that way the group could say, hrmmm are we going to kill loki so he cant yell? or take on the guards?) I must say tho, that plenty of folk die on loki thrym, it isnt a huge zone. Clouds 'loki' fights are a bit wussy. How about making a popable distro room that leads into 1w of fight to keep people on their toes? Shrug Ideas...

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Postby gruldo » Sat Jul 13, 2002 7:45 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galkar:

You have Thyrm in a room with a bunch of jarls. Thyrm wouldn't necessarily come after the group, but if the group were to flee out, have 2-3 random jarls give chase. Say for instance there are 6 jarls in the room, make jarls 1, 3, and 5 track during one boot. Then, during second boot, make it 2, 4, and 6 that track.


Just a thought.


[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


the problem with that is, it would actually make fight easier. you could go in with somone let em take a round of smacks, and then they flee out dragging 3 random guards with them to die. Then the fight inside the room is just that much easier.

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