Some things about Bards..

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
Kesatra
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Some things about Bards..

Postby Kesatra » Tue Jul 16, 2002 7:27 pm

I just recently started a bard on Sojourn, but I've noticed a few things that seem disturbing.

Firstly, although the "hype" about bards is quite high, there seems to be very few bards actually around. Not any more than I used to see before the changes. Now maybe people just don't like playing bards, but I don't know, it seems to me like they could use some work in certain areas. Now please don't get me wrong, I think the bard changes are wonderful and I'm very glad that the staff decided to work on them, but here are a few things that concern me:

Songs and PSPs. Now I'm not sure how PSPs work at higher levels (maybe you have a song that restores them?) But so far at lower levels my PSPs just don't restore. They regen at a rate of maybe one per.. I don't even know, but it would take me hours to actually rest up to full PSPs. I wish bards had some way of increasing the regen rate, some form of meditate or whatnot, or a song that soothes their minds but does not use up PSPs (that is available at lower levels).

Songs and song times. Each verse seems to take so long to actually sing that I find myself forgetting whether or not I'm even singing, and typing the sing command again. Maybe this was to reduce spam, or something, but I feel that having songs go off twice as fast at half the PSP cost and half the effectiveness would work much better - at least I would know I was singing, and my songs could be more diverse then, because I could switch more often.

Song transitions. A minor detail but something that would be nice - a change to meld into another song from the song you are currently singing (instead of stopping first and then restarting a new song, just sing 'regen' while you're singing protection and it would let you perform a transition to the new song). Perhaps base it upon skill in the individual song types, the higher skill the higher the chance of success in the song transition.

Lastly, lore. I am so so glad that the coders put in this skill. However, apparently it can only be used three times per day? And I wasn't even able to identify a small sword with it. Now, I have heard the argument "You usually don't find more th an 3 items per 24 minutes" to which I would retaliate, if you don't usually need it more often, then why not just let us use it more often, for the newbies' sakes? It won't affect you at all apparently since you don't need it more than 3 times for every 24 minutes, but what about for the newbie bard running around gathering new things from the local areas, without enough money to spend on identify scrolls? This skill is not -unbalacing- it is merely CONVENIENT. Just as warriors can tank much better than bards, bards can identify better than warriors. "anything infinite is generally not good" was another argument I was given, and to this I respond: Warriors get infinite melee attacks, is that bad? They also get infinite bashes, shield blocks, and kicks. Is this unbalancing? No, it is useful, fun (generally) and CONVENIENT ("wait until tomorrow, I'm all out of bashes for today.."). Now I'm not necessarily suggesting to give INFINITE uses of identify, but perhaps 10? Or allow bards to identify things without a chance of failure if the equipment is geared towards their level and below, and maybe only a small chance if it's for several levels higher? Once again I iterate, lore is a SKILL, it is SUPPOSED to give bards an advantage over other classes in a certain area. A warrior might be able to go and smite an enemy, then return home and sell his gear for 3 platinum. So why, then, can bards not save their platinum by using lore, since they won't be able to smite the enemy like the warrior can? Yes, people have spent money on identify scrolls, but that is the point after all, bards have lore so they don't have the spend the money, it's a little class perk. And it makes plenty of sense, and I'm glad the staff put it in :) But please, I really feel that we should get at least a few more uses of it per day. I was extremely pleased to find out we had it then extremely disappointed when I could only use it three times.


On a more personal note, and completely off-topic, I feel that if you need to look up a word that someone else has used, you should certainly not be telling other people how to use that word. We all know very well that the English language can have many uses for a single word, and until you have read and heard and used the word in many situations, you shouldn't be critiquing someone else who has. I'm referring specifically to the use of the word "prerogative" which was criticized, apparently for no reason, on the NHC channel. I am mentioning this here because I didn't want to spam the channel - for those of you who are STILL in confusion, yes prerogative would refer to a right to vote, and would refer to a right to hold your own opinion, although most definitions contain the word "exclusive," this also refers to exclusive rights of PEOPLE, for instance, the power of imagination is a prerogative of "man." If you had just read down a little further on the definition at dictionary.com you would have seen this and realized that I was indeed correct in my word usage before jumping to silly conclusions and trying to argue with me about the usage of a word you had to look up the dictionary. I apologize to anyone who read this last section and has no idea what I'm talking about:) And to those who do, please take care next time. Thank you.

Kesa

[This message has been edited by Kesatra (edited 07-16-2002).]
Allycis
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Postby Allycis » Tue Jul 16, 2002 7:41 pm

The dancing bard sings at you, enshrouding you in a sea of bard newbieness!
Kesatra
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Postby Kesatra » Tue Jul 16, 2002 7:49 pm

Sometimes having a fresh opinion can be very informative:)
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Postby Ormiss » Tue Jul 16, 2002 7:54 pm

Allycis, just a quick question. Did you read the post, or just the name of the poster before you made your flame?
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Jul 16, 2002 7:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ormiss:
Allycis, just a quick question. Did you read the post, or just the name of the poster before you made your flame?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Allycis primary char is a 46+ battlechanter.




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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
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Postby Ormiss » Tue Jul 16, 2002 8:02 pm

I wasn't saying otherwise; I was quite certain that they would be high level. But when was the last time any of you gave a newbie the chance to speak?

The view from the top isn't the same as from the bottom. Just because your skills work perfectly at zoning level doesn't mean that newbies have to be useless, does it?
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Postby Yayaril » Tue Jul 16, 2002 8:14 pm

Good thing level doesn't dictate the truth of a person's statements.

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-Yayaril
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Postby Ambar » Tue Jul 16, 2002 8:20 pm

A lot of this frustration will be resolved with experience and time ...


We get so tied up in the skills we want to excel in that we don't stop to think about the effects of leveling

On that note .. think this way

have u EVER seen how bad a baby warrior bash or rescue is??

It's frustrating as hell .. but with time levels and experience this is all taken care of

PSP's ... dont these regenerate every 24 minutes??? (i don't play a bard ...)

Song times.... be patient young grasshopper .... (never EVER play an ogre shaman if you hate to wait)

Song transitions .. um only make sense?? Ever driven a car?? Have to slow down, almost stop before makign a turn ...

Lore .. be glad you have it and don't have to buy the scrolls...

Perrogative....sure wish you'd explain the circumstance more (and dont assume everyone reads this BBS).. and no this isnt the venue to discuss it .. only certain people have access to the nhc channel ... talk to the individual involved, perhaps it was a misunderstanding .. in fact .. more often than not on sojourn .. english is a second language (no idea where u hail from) ... and to be honest and on the behalf of those people .. they often speak it WAY better than we Americans do, and their grammar and punctuation is MUCH better than average .. and i know a few who take GREAT pride in the fact(who loves ya cheezer Image) ... my usage/punctuation sucks and i dont care as long as i get the point across.. and i am VERY verbose in real life ...

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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
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Postby Ambar » Tue Jul 16, 2002 8:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ormiss:
<B>I wasn't saying otherwise; I was quite certain that they would be high level. But when was the last time any of you gave a newbie the chance to speak?

The view from the top isn't the same as from the bottom. Just because your skills work perfectly at zoning level doesn't mean that newbies have to be useless, does it?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


i think we all started at level one?? hrrmmmm .. and noone said this new person doesn't have the right to voice their own opinion ...


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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
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Postby Grungar » Tue Jul 16, 2002 8:26 pm

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Song transitions .. um only make sense?? Ever driven a car?? Have to slow down, almost stop before makign a turn ...</font>


You can corner in a Honda Civic at 45 =D

I can, rather. And have. Too much faster and you go up on two wheels. Not fun.

- Grungar "You don't wanna ride with me. Trust me." Forgefire


Edit: *grumble* Today's not my day.

[This message has been edited by Grungar (edited 07-16-2002).]
Kesatra
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Postby Kesatra » Tue Jul 16, 2002 8:29 pm

Well as I mentioned, Ambar, I am glad to have lore. I was simply making a suggestion about how to make it more useful in a way that I felt would not be unbalanced.

Song times do not decrease with level, like mem times (far as I know, am I wrong about this?? I certainly haven't seen the effect yet, if there is one, which I doubt very much).

No, PSPs do not restore every 24 minutes. They regen just like hit points and movement, just horrendously slower.

Song transitions - I'm not talking about driving a car, I'm talking about singing a song. Ever been to a high school concert? They do plenty of song transitions Image It doesn't require slowing down and stopping, it only requires changing your beat and timing in an instant - musicians do it all the time. You want to use a car analogy? Okay, when you turn your air conditioning from low to high, do you have to turn it off first? When you tune a different station on a radio, do you have to turn off the radio, then turn it back on at a new station? If you're going to use analogies, please make them relevant. But Ambar, I do appreciate the fact that your posts were actually on-topic. Thank you for commenting on what I wrote, and not something completely irrelevant.
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Postby Kesatra » Tue Jul 16, 2002 8:39 pm

What I would really like to see here is, comments from others who have played bards, at low levels and high. What do YOU think about my suggestions and how do you feel about it? And I would really prefer it if the people commenting could comment in full honesty, without protecting their class or feeling that they will insult all the valiant efforts of the coders in making bards a viable class.

IS there something to restore PSPs faster at higher levels, and if so, why is it not available at low levels, and do you feel that it would unbalance things, and if so, why?

What would be bad about halving effectiveness and song times? Why would it be bad?

What do you think of song transitions, why would they not be in, aren't they interesting, useful, and simply CONVENIENT rather than unbalancing?

Would giving bards more lores a day REALLY unbalance the MUD somehow, and if it did, how? And why?

I would really like to see honest, constructive comments, real arguments rather than flames, and arguments that make sense, things that people have thought about rather than the first thing that pops into their heads. Please think about what I'm saying instead of just "dismissing the rantings of a useless newbie."

And my last and most important question, WHY are there not more bards around if everything is so peachy?

Thank you for taking the time to read.
Kesa
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Postby torkur » Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:20 pm

I forget the toggle, but set how low your PSP's can go to something reasonably high. That way they won't take so long totally regenerate. You can always just start resinging when u stutter.

Also, try grouping with a good warrior type as a tank and killing stuff the tank doesn't lose too many hp on while you use a good weapon to assist, using songs only for resting afterwards and healing. Most caster classes have to use melee just like everyone else at lower levels.

It does make a world of difference in song ability if you gain a couple levels and most songs don't seem to work very well under level 20. It will change later. Bard songs seem to mirror the effectiveness of mage/cleric spells.....exponentially better as you go up in level.

As for lore, at least it doesn't cost anything. If you wish to know it's stats, you can ask people or save it in your bag to id later and by level 20 again, the money for an id scroll isn't a big deal.

Hang in there, it gets much better.
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Postby Aldira » Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kesatra:
IS there something to restore PSPs faster at higher levels, and if so, why is it not available at low levels, and do you feel that it would unbalance things, and if so, why?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Song of renewal, gained at level 21, doesn't work very well until you increase your skill in it. Around level 30, it will be a consistent way to regen mana. Personally, I've felt that a way to regenerate PSP at a lower level was needed ala Meditate skill. But, it also depends on how the coders wish to allow the class to develop over time, which I believe their intent was to make us similar to rogues at lower-mid levels, and more casterish at higher levels.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kesatra:
What would be bad about halving effectiveness and song times? Why would it be bad?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of bard songs, there are relatively few that have an effect on the actual verse: renewal, healing, harming, travel. Every other song has a continuous effect that song verses only renew the duration of. The 15 seconds between each song verse is there to balance the cumulative increase in song power, the cumulative increase in song stutter rate, and yes, to balance the power of the on-verse effect songs. The longer verse times give mobs more chance to stun us, as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kesatra:
What do you think of song transitions, why would they not be in, aren't they interesting, useful, and simply CONVENIENT rather than unbalancing?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Song transitions are currently in for transferring the current song to a different target with only the 1 round startup time before the new effects take place. They aren't in for transferring between songs because, unlike your references to a choir or other group of musicians, these songs are magical in nature, and require magical energy and significantly more training to produce the magical effects of. Where magic is concerned, all the rules the universe follows get to be made up by the creator of the particular magical effect. I'm just glad they removed the lag on stopping songs, making it very easy to switch between two different songs.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kesatra:
Would giving bards more lores a day REALLY unbalance the MUD somehow, and if it did, how? And why?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Enchanters are the only class with the identify spell. Every other class must use identify scrolls from the store. Each of these scrolls has a cost in coins. The spell also has a cost, of time (scribing, memming, forgetting), and coins for the spell. Knowledge is power, and being able to identify any item whenever you want at no cost would, in my opinion, just be wrong, taking away the opportunity cost of the skill (do I identify this item, or this other item?). Bards seem to be all about this opportunity cost. Cannot use thief skills while singing, cannot cast spells while singing, although you can cast any spell from the appropriate slot you can only cast a certain number per 24 minutes.. it goes on and on.

You mentioned raising the limit to 10 items per day, or 'something like that', but that's just yet another arbitrary limit, and really, the whole point is that there has to be a limit. Everything has a limit, a cost. Even bash and rescue have limits. They have a significant lag associated with them, downsides if you fail the skill.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kesatra:
And my last and most important question, WHY are there not more bards around if everything is so peachy?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is most likely due to the fact that many of the bard's abilities do not produce results that can be seen.

The song of harming is easily overshadowed by all other forms of damage, most likely even the circle skill that bards get, and I can't really tell how much damage it does at all. The song of sorcery increases cast times, but the bard can't really see that. Song of offensive harmony and offensive disruption are the only songs that have visible effects, haste and slow, but they have a low success rate on those extra effects, even at very high skill level. Song of defensive harmony, defensive disruption.. these songs, although very obvious in their effects when you type 'practice', cannot be seen in combat except for a kind of general feel that the fight is going better. But then the tank dies to 3 crits in one round and you start to wonder if it really did anything at all.. Then there's the whole problem of having rogue hps and less melee damage than rogues, which means you're last on the haste/globe list, if at all.

Overall, I feel the class has potential, but no one has unlocked it yet. It's an entirely brand new class, and, like Illusionists, it needs people to get level 50 and go try and do Kostchtchie with 3 people (taken to the edge) before any of it's real power can be shown. I know that invokers pale in comparison to necromancers, until level 46. I'm hoping it's that way with bards, that those last 9 skill points double my group haste rate. I know accompany helps a ton, but I'd rather not be relying on another bard to group with me at all.. most likely a rarity, if ever.

Oh, and about prerogative.. I knew what it meant before I looked it up. I looked it up just because I wanted to know -exactly- what it meant, and I said "After looking that word up, I disagree with that too." because I thought it was funny (thank you for laughing Kossuth), and because you seemed in a very argumentative mood. I'll remember not to crack jokes with people in argumentative moods in the future Image

Thanks for trying Sojourn, and I hope you stick around! I need someone to accompany at some point in the future Image
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:48 pm

Some general info:

1. Bards previously didn't get songs until 10th level. Singing songs is quite difficult at very low levels, and is really only useful if you're an actual new player. If you have a bunch of hit point gear songs like regeneration may not seem like much.

2. Singing songs while you're engaged in combat increases the chance that you will stutter (or burn mana). It's an even larger penalty if you're tanking.

3. At 21st level you get a song called 'song of renewal'. By 23rd level, I was able to get my mana back, albeit a bit slowly. By 26th level it came back rather quickly. By 35th level, it's great.

4. Different songs use varying amounts of mana when you stutter. In general, the earlier you get a song, the lower the amount of mana you will burn. Also, low-level songs tend to cause you to stutter less overall (there's a difficulty check related to the song).

5. The longer you sing a song, the more powerful it becomes, but also the harder it becomes to not stutter. At low levels, it would be a good idea to stop singing occasionally to restart the song. (This doesn't apply to the song of renewal, btw... it's not affected by either of those features).

Bards, as they are now, are brand spanking new. They will likely require monitoring and tweaking for quite some time. I'll look into the low-level mana issues.

[This message has been edited by Iyachtu (edited 07-16-2002).]
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Postby Kesatra » Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:50 pm

Well thank you for the constructive comments, Aldira. I wouldn't say I was in an "argumentative" mood but you have no idea how many times I've been scoffed at in the last few weeks for having a new idea "just because I'm a newbie." I felt that you scoffed at me and then proceeded to argue about something pointless, as if in effort to further mock me, and I apologize if this was not the case.

If you disagree with infinite then how about 10 or 12? Bring bards along, they can sing, cast spells, and identify your gear! I understand it costs money, but if enchanters can memorize the spell, why can't bards use it a number of times? I think enchanters could memorize it more than three times per 24 minutes. Choosing is nice, but maybe something based upon skill level - now this will get a little complicated, but perhaps you have a certain amount of "identify points" (visible or not visible, doesn't matter) and depending on how high-level the equipment you're identifying is, you use more or less points? So let's say you just get 100 points per day. You id something half your level, it takes 5 points. Something at your level takes 10 points. That would realistically reflect the difficulty in identifying certain items and the "mental cost" of doing so (since we get the "mentally exhausted" message). Then you could be a nice bard and identify a bunch of gear for a helpless 3rd level warrior who can't afford the id scrolls, but you would still have to choose between the gear that really matters for you.

Or, alternately, have ID cost PSPs? Maybe the bard is using some form of magic to identify the item, that's why it mentally exhausts him/her? So you could identify based on your PSPs. The higher level the item, the more PSPs it costs to identify.
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:52 pm

As for Lore, at higher levels it appears to be nearly automatic (I didn't add lore, it was already there).

Enchanters don't get the identify spell until 7th circle, which is 31st level. And ask an enchanter that doesn't have time stop how much fun it is to cast identify.
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:55 pm

Kesatra, I would suggest ignoring scoffs not coming from people with the 'Staff Member' under their posting handle. Staff Members can and do read virtually every post here. If there are people who think there's something wrong with you because you're new to the game, that's their problem, not yours. Not every idea that everyone posts here has merit, but they do all get read. And no amount of lambasting by other players makes us ignore someone's comments. Image
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:57 pm

When I played an enchanter I still bought ID scrolls because they were just darned easier and faster.
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Postby Kesatra » Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:57 pm

Thank you so much Iyachtu, those were exactly the kinds of things that I was asking about. I know I'm not qualified to speak about the upper levels, but I realize that bards of this style are brand new and that's why I thought I should try to input my ideas about the lower levels :)

Please consider my comments about lore in the above post as well, I really love the lore skill and I wish I could get some more use out of it at my level.

Kesa
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Postby Aldira » Tue Jul 16, 2002 10:32 pm

Items don't have any kind of 'level' flag that I'm aware of, so I figure basing it on the item would be very very difficult to implement, if not impossible.

Identifying with PSP is a valid alternative, I thought that was a nifty idea.

About lore in general, I've asked lots of people if they could give me an item to identify that I didn't know about. I'd lore it, give it back, and they'd ask me if I had already identified it. I say yes, they say 'Wow, already?', I point out I have the lore skill, and they say 'Jeez, bards rock.' So really, even though it's three times per day, it's a skill that's unique, interesting, themey, and great the way it is.
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Postby Snurgt » Tue Jul 16, 2002 10:38 pm

Lore is just gravy, if bards lost it, it would not change the class at all. Its a luxury.

On another note (cough), i think it would be good to show song of sorcery effects on spells in combat like.

Snurgt casts constriction
Snurgts spell is augmented by x's song of sorcery!

Something like that, to more visibly see the effect.

Or: Snurgt dodges a hit from Tiamat with the aid of x's song!

Just something so the group can see that the bard is actually having an effect. Might help in getting bards in more groups.

Snurgt take no prisoner
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Postby Grungar » Tue Jul 16, 2002 11:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Iyachtu:
Kesatra, I would suggest ignoring scoffs not coming from people with the 'Staff Member' under their posting handle. Staff Members can and do read virtually every post here. If there are people who think there's something wrong with you because you're new to the game, that's their problem, not yours. Not every idea that everyone posts here has merit, but they [b]do all get read. And no amount of lambasting by other players makes us ignore someone's comments. Image[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, what he said. And a lot of us are asses. Just like me.

- Grungar "It takes years to perfect the art of the ass" Forgefire
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Postby Aldira » Wed Jul 17, 2002 12:17 am

Another problem with bards in general is the boredom factor.

At higher levels, you can either hit or you can sing. In a zone environment, mobs are oftentimes shielded, fights are relatively fast, and every spell counts. This means that, as a bard, it is unlikely you will receive a haste or globe, making melee ability iffy at best. So, I sing.

Singing, I have several options, but as mentioned above, only a few have noticeable results in fights. For these songs, I start singing them... then wait for my mana to run down. I don't really do anything else. This leaves me feeling kind of worthless, even though I know my song is doing something. I was once engaged in a rather interesting fight with a tough mob, watching the flow of battle, when my screen saver came up. I was still helping the group as much as I could though (I'm not lazy). The screen saver surprised me to say the least, but it pointed out how dull a bard can be, even in a tough zone environment.
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Postby Burpie » Wed Jul 17, 2002 12:29 am

Firsty, where the HELL was Kesatra when I was in english class? ah, well - I did manage to crawl away with a 'C-' hehe. The gargantuan problem I have with bards is that everybody who's a non-bard tells me that bards exp at same rate as rogues. I definitely have not fount this to be the case. I take quite a long time to level el bardo cuz my rogue took like 3 hours less time doing the same stuff to hit 20th level. Also, soloing 'x' mob gives >>> to my rogue at 15th level. Same mob took 2 kills to give me > ..was not same to me, but I don't know why. Are rogue/bard tables same? ** I do love how bards heal themselves, can hide in a bind, and other stuff...very versatile! **

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Postby Kesatra » Wed Jul 17, 2002 3:24 am

Aldira, this 'boredom factor' that you speak of is what I'm most worried about in terms of higher levels. I don't care as much about class usefulness (it's certainly a plus but I'd rather be fun than useful), honestly I don't know that much about what classes are useful or not and I'll probably just be grouping with friends anyway, but the class should be interesting, I'd say. This comes back to my suggestion about song transitions - perhaps you could transition into another song without losing all the time you've spent building up the song you were singing in the first place? I think it would be neat of bards would be effective in switching songs several times per fight, or maybe if that wouldn't work out, something else to do while singing?

I'm not sure how powerful bard skills are, but is it entirely silly to suggest allowing bards to use circle while singing? Or maybe throw something? But they'd have to remove their instrument to throw of course.. and I'm not sure how throwing works really, but it looks neat and fun when rogues do it. I'm not suggesting to overpower bards, I'm just seeking a way to make them interesting during fights. Any ideas would be appreciated..
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Postby old depok » Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:33 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kesatra:
<B>Aldira, this 'boredom factor' that you speak of is what I'm most worried about in terms of higher levels. I don't care as much about class usefulness (it's certainly a plus but I'd rather be fun than useful), honestly I don't know that much about what classes are useful or not and I'll probably just be grouping with friends anyway, but the class should be interesting, I'd say. This comes back to my suggestion about song transitions - perhaps you could transition into another song without losing all the time you've spent building up the song you were singing in the first place? I think it would be neat of bards would be effective in switching songs several times per fight, or maybe if that wouldn't work out, something else to do while singing?

I'm not sure how powerful bard skills are, but is it entirely silly to suggest allowing bards to use circle while singing? Or maybe throw something? But they'd have to remove their instrument to throw of course.. and I'm not sure how throwing works really, but it looks neat and fun when rogues do it. I'm not suggesting to overpower bards, I'm just seeking a way to make them interesting during fights. Any ideas would be appreciated..</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Throw (rogue range) has not been implemented yet.

As for general bard comments, I play a level 17 bard alt who has good eq (level 40+ rogue eq).

From a grouping perspective at low levels I am viewed as a hitter first and a healer (limited) second. With the mana loss being so quick at low levels it is hard to be reliable as a healer. I do see most groups looking to group me as a healer (some times primary healer).

In terms of the effects of the songs being seen by the group, I think that bards should be educating the people they group with as to what the effects are and how they can see them. I think that this will help. Once i showed my group the effects of defensive harmony they were boggling and asking me to play the song. I went through the various options for songs with them and showed them the effects.

In terms of usefulness, I think that bards can be a useful addition to a group. The key is having someone who can add value to the group through knowledge of their class and in taking advantage of their full range of skills. If your sitting there as a bard and only singing then you are not playing the class to its fullest IMHO (At the very least you should be engaged in the fight).

Can't believe that Aldira was not getting globed or hasted. Did you speak up? Hell, last night I almost asked that my spirit get globed (I didn't but almost did). One of the enchanters job is to globe the hitters. YOU ARE A HITTER! If your not getting globed (at the very least) then speak up. If you do speak up and still don't get globed your grouping with the wrong people.

And why can't you sing and fight? I know you can't circle while singing but you still should be getting multiple attacks per round.

In terms of being bored I am surprised by that. I look at the bard as a rogue who lacks assassinate in terms of melee but who has lots of options for songs. Maybe you need to volunteer for more roles (luring mobs, scouting, etc.).

Would love to see what Navia can do in a zone with the new bard abilities. She was useful in zone groups BEFORE the changes and at level 40! (yes I miss grouping with you *POKE*)
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Postby Jorus » Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:06 pm

a quick comment on globing bards...

If there are spare globes, I make sure bards get them in groups where I do the assignments. If there aren't any spares, the bard will be the first to loose their globe though.

Why? In fights, a bard's primary use is their songs. The hitting damage they do is secondary. I have seen several bard songs make very hard fights go much smoother. But any other hitter or tank without a globe is just wasting a group slot.

Regards,
Jorus
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Postby Guest » Wed Jul 24, 2002 8:20 am

Just to clarify, bards do not have the same experience table as rogues, that's a misnomer (and one that suprised some people upstairs when we discovered it, too). That's not something that was changed, at least not this wipe. They just never were on the same exp table.

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