What level XP zone is needed?

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Cyric
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What level XP zone is needed?

Postby Cyric » Sat Jul 27, 2002 12:29 pm

1. If I were to create an XP zone, what level should it be?
2. How about if it was UD only?
3. How about if it was goodies only?

Cyric

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Postby Keyez » Sat Jul 27, 2002 12:43 pm

I'd say a level 20-30 exp zone in the UD would be cool. Of course I'm level 26 and have a level 22 alt .. so I may be biased Image

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Postby Snurgt » Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:01 pm

I'd agree...its that 20-30 slump.

I think making it UD only or goodies only
would be good if it were a higher level EXP zone like ship.

I never see evils in lower level exp zones that goodies frequent, and most evils XP in DK for most of the lower levels.
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Postby Galkar » Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:31 pm

Make a 20-40 level exp zone down near BG or Calim, still accessible to goodies, but easy to get to for evils.

Oh, and make the mobs give enough exp to get one level per kill, with 50p on each mob *nog me*

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Postby rylan » Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:37 pm

yup, mid level (20-40) xp zone. I know goodies can use that, and I'd assume evils can too.
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Postby Drache » Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:43 pm

I get burnt out, somewhat, around 26th level, so maybe a 25-35 zone. Jot and other stuff are offered to those above 35 it seems, so exp is not really a problem at that point. I'm not a powerful player so I give the 'solo' viewpoint. Trophy makes it somewhat hard for a player that can't find groups. Not all other players are tolerant to someone that can't hold their own or is wise in the way to play.

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Postby Kallinar » Sat Jul 27, 2002 8:03 pm

hell yes. gettin in a ship group and not hitting worth a damn (or at all) till i'm like level 30
sux bols. Strongly agree on the 20-40 exp area accessable to both good and evil.

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Postby Tesil2 » Sat Jul 27, 2002 8:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cyric:
<B>1. If I were to create an XP zone, what level should it be?
2. How about if it was UD only?
3. How about if it was goodies only?

Cyric

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A 20-40 zone would be great.

Make sure it has very fast pops and lots of mobs as everyone and their brother will be roaming the place! Image
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Postby Ensis » Sat Jul 27, 2002 9:58 pm

How about making the mobs in grid exp zones classed so that they are actually worth decent exp??

Being a paladin there are only really 4 places i can fight for xp from 40-50.. and really only 1 when you think about it.

Ship - only good exp for a pally 45+
Tower - only really good up until 45
Blip - only heard about it
MS - hard to do without chanters, and not worth great exp

I think ship would be the best template to go off Cyric, thats the most used exp spot after 25th level.



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Postby Dugmaren » Sat Jul 27, 2002 10:23 pm

Feh, gimme another 2hours.
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Jul 27, 2002 10:40 pm

Instead of writing a new zone, why not take an hour and restore some of the OLD 20-40 exp zones to the exp they used to be? Here is the neverending cycle of exp zones on Sojourn:

1. God implements new exp zone, tailored to what the mud needs. Players flock there initially.
2. Novelty wears off a little, but players realize that the new zone is better experience than most of the other zones available, so it remains fairly heavily populated.
3. Time goes by, the "new" zone isn't new anymore, it becomes the standard exp ground for certain types of groups.
4. Gods see that one zone is getting more activity than others and downgrade the experience or upgrade the mobs to try to force players to go elsewhere.

How about we stop doing step 4? Restore Havenport to its former glory. Increase the exp on buffaloes to what it used to be. I heard IC even got the nerf stick, if that's the case, restore the mobs there to the levels they were at before. Honestly Cyric, there's no reason to write a new exp zone when we had SEVERAL perfectly workable zones in the past that don't get used now because they got nerfed.

Is it REALLY such a big deal for people to sit on card orcs? Why were they nerfed when ship is BASICALLY the same thing, but for high levels? Why does it matter so much whether I'm able to level from 25 to 40 in Havenport, or whether I have to shift to a different zone? Honestly, what's the difference between doing buffaloes 50 steps out of Waterdeep or monestary 70 steps out?

Fix havenport, IC, split shield, buffaloes, and any other exp zones that took the nerf hit when areas gods thought they were getting more use than they should. Then worry about adding zones if the playerbase needs more.

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Postby Jegzed » Sat Jul 27, 2002 10:53 pm

I agree 100% with Ragorn.

I miss the old days as a little newbie, trekking all the way to IC and kill for a few levels.

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Postby Snurgt » Sat Jul 27, 2002 11:04 pm

I have to say, I agree with the myriad of ideas Ragorn has submitted, 100%.
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Postby Shevarash » Sun Jul 28, 2002 12:06 am

*cough*

HP didn't get nerfed - classless mobs did. A LONG time ago.

HP has been updated a few times now, (The Spirit Raven was in one of those updates) and it will continue to get updated...eventually.

The thing is Ragorn, the old zones need updating in most cases because they've been obsoleted..not nerfed.

Anyways..




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Postby Kifle » Sun Jul 28, 2002 12:51 am

I must admit,though, i really miss going to IC for exp...it was a long walk, but it was fun.

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Postby Ragorn » Sun Jul 28, 2002 1:52 am

Ok, I didn't fully understand the Havenport situation. The exp there dropped off suddenly, and I thought it was due to direct and purposeful intervention.

So the intent is the same but the solution is a little different. Go into HP and make the primary exp mobs warriors and rogues. It will take much less time than designing an entirely new zone, leaving more time for Cyric to work on other areas. I imagine card orcs in SS could be worked the same way, no? SS was once the mecca of 10-20 levelling, now it's a ghost town because fighting in the street leaves you open to getting gangbanged by elites.

Exp on WD buffs DID get nerfed though, yes? I think I remember the news way back in Toril tell us that buffs took a huge hit to encourage people to step out a little more.

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Postby Aldira » Sun Jul 28, 2002 2:28 am

I went to split shield about level 30, and was pleasantly surprised to gain a considerable amount of solo exp on the guards, making it easily worth my while to putter around there.
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Postby Galkar » Sun Jul 28, 2002 1:23 pm

As a 33 paladin that gets the 25% bonus, HP and IC are still doable for me as exp. Thing is, it's really only good for me solo. When I start adding people to the group, exp gets *real* slow. A three man group in IC or HP can't level nearly as fast as they could in monestary. And that's on mobs easier than those in IC or HP.

Anyways, lieutenants and tubbies give me a single notch/kill solo, not to shabby. Overseers are the only good exp in HP for my level anymore, and they hit me hard *cringe*, plus I can't solo them well at all.

Anyways, I agree with upgrading the zones hit by classless mobs, especially HP, god I'd love that. I really like HP actually, hehe. Damn thieves Image

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Postby Ragorn » Sun Jul 28, 2002 5:50 pm

I tried HP and didn't think the reward was worth the time involved. Levelling my 27 ranger with Arishae's paladin's gear (32 damroll, bastardsword and GCD, well past -100AC) it was actually faster for me to level in SSC than IC or HP. The mobs gave less exp, but they hit like girls so there was far less downtime as I waited for my hp to tick back up. Havenport does have the heal room, which is one of the reasons it's such a nice solo area. But the mobs there hit too hard through crappy ranger tank skills for me to do much down there, and the exp is too slim to bring a group. I actually levelled from 20-24 exclusively on huge buffaloes, mostly from the sticks to snakes damage experience. When they got too slim to continue on, they were still at least "lucky, punk".

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Postby Tanji Smanji » Sun Jul 28, 2002 6:49 pm

Speakin of exp zones, why was wizzies on MS removed? I'm assuming its gone since I went there after the changes, spent 30 minutes getting through the bloodrider camp, nearly died and there's 1 wizard who's now aggro.

If we're tryin to make more exp zones, why kill a decent longstanding one? Doesn't make much sense...
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Postby Mplor » Sun Jul 28, 2002 7:08 pm

I gotta say that MS Wizzies was one of the better exp spots that doubled as a "training ground". Wizzies required more attention than ghey elite guards, though less than Jot grid. Wizzies weren't "hard", just good exp that you had to stay on your toes or someone was gonna die. Honestly, exp should be like that. If you are willing to do something slightly dangerous, there should be a reward.

Mp
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Postby Igvar » Sun Jul 28, 2002 7:39 pm

I agree with Tanji here.

Wizards was a nice exp spot. Particularly one that was out of the way and less crowded. It was also good for classes with bash as most, not all mind you, people who did exp there would take a basher with them, unlike smoke where melee is not required.

Now that's gone too.

Here's the current most common exp path that I have seen:

Goodie: Sedawi/Valley till 10 --> BGR/SSC till 25 --> Monastery/BGR till 30+ --> Ship...ship...ship...

Evil: Mir till 10 --> DK till 30+ --> Ship...ship...ship...

If you're a caster, at 41, you play in smoke alot as well.

Yes, their are multiple other avenues which get used, albeit slightly, during this path. However, the majority of exp is done along this path. One of the problems here is, as Ragorn stated earlier, many of the past exp zones were changed, directly or indirectly, to the point that they aren't worth the time and effort involved. Moonshaes is just the most recent in this particular trend.

Now, if these zones were changed such that they became useful as equipment zones, that's fine. Though, in most cases, that doesn't seem to be the trend. HP rarely gets used except to solo the handful of useful items on a boot, or to nab the GCD. IC used to be a hot exp zone, but with it's current location, and better mob density in BGR and its associated zones, it is largely unused. Moonshaes wasn't used by alot of people, but wizards did receive a steady business at times. I am unsure of the scope of the change there so will refrain from commenting too much on the zone.

Now, as far as exp zones go, the most successful ones have a few things in common.

Convenience: Zones that don't take an hour(exaggeration for the most part) to reach from a common rent and gathering spot will always receive far more traffic. The only time this will not be so is if you make the reward(better xp, potential nice eq, easier mobs with the same xp) much better on the farflung zone.

Mob density and difficulty: These are coupled together in that they are related in a way. A high mob density in a zone makes it more desirable. A low mob density can still be desirable if the mobs in a zone are higher level, but less difficult(varied hps, damrolls, etc). If you have both a high mob density and low difficulty, the zone will be used.

Danger: The potential for death due to aggro roamers, missed bashes on casters, assisters(particularly those that hear combat), and other such situations will always be detrimental to a zone's traffic. This will only be mitigated if other factor's are varied to make the reward worth the risk.

Now look at the most common exp tracks above. Smoke, BGR(and its associated zones), DK and ship all have the best to offer. Convenient locations, high mob density coupled with low difficulty, and low danger potential. This has led to overcrowding in all of them. To change that you would have to offer duplicates(an evil ship sailing from the turtle port, an aerial city that touches down outside WD and DK, a populated road with tagged on zones south of WD, etc.) or you can offer better rewards for the travel to more farflung zones(a castle with nice potential rares for mid levels to the far east, a temple with bashable cleric mobs on an island, etc).

Anyway, this has gone on overlong and this is probably enough of my opinions on the matter, for one post anyway.

Guz/Igvar/Narg
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jul 28, 2002 11:55 pm

I mostly agree with Rags. I used to love HP, but I've only been there once this wipe because no one wants to exp there anymore. Image

However, I don't think this means we shouldn't get more _new_ zones as well. Some of the new zones that have been added I like a lot too. Bandit Camp as a lowbie zone for instance, or Monastary is pretty cool.

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Postby Gormal » Mon Jul 29, 2002 12:10 am

Removing wizzes was such a terrible idea.

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Postby Lilithelle » Mon Jul 29, 2002 2:56 am

You think its hard finding somewhere to exp as a paladin? Try finding one as a druid. I never did find any decent exp zones that were nature after BGR, Nightfall Trail et all. The biggest mobs there are 35. I ended up playing healer on ship and tower when they couldn't get a cleric. Revamping Shadow Grove would be nice, I think they're mostly classless now. TF has some snow elves and such, but alot of them have weapons so they hurt alot.
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Postby gnerble » Mon Jul 29, 2002 3:25 pm

Remember when Havenport first went it? It rocked. The place was FULL of people. Then the XP got downgraded 25% or so I believe. (I save the news on my home computer)

Now with the nerf on classless mobs, many zones took a beating. Split Shield used to be great, but it has it's problems. ALL of the guards assist. The huge guards are great but there pop is SO easy to fubar and you'll wind up with 2-5 in a tower. The mobs there pick up your weapons faster then your trigger can pick em up, and most are classless.

I can level from 1 to 10 in one hour (as an enchanter) just killing the magicians/bandits/clerics/warriors near TP and the guardsmen in the small zonelet near gnolls. I tried the same in split shield. I gave up after getting 1/2 a level in almost an hour (this was level 8) off of trying to kill the wargs, and the small classed guards.

I thought Hulburg would be a good place for mid-level XP, but the CR time is ridiculous, MANY mobs assist others and THEN track you. There are also HIDDEN mobs that assist. I guess I'll go post that rant on the other thread.

Bottom Line - We don't need more XP zones. The classless nerf hurt, and so did zone nerfs.

Let me think about where I used to XP one wipe ago...

IC - with those kickass horses from Griffon's Nest (horses can't tank now). Sleepy guest used to be do-able. Tubby merchants used to be good xp.
Moonshaes - wizards
Greycloak - The elf town and the bandit camp (most are classless)
Havenport - Classless and less xp
Baldur's Gate - Guards used to be !assist, !justice, LOTS of variety, but most are classless. Sea Tower is still decent, but the pop is way too long if you are just killing those mobs.
Buffalos - MMM used to be nice xp
BGR - boggle, still a great place to xp because of darkness and a variety of classed mobs
Split Shield - but cards orcs are classless and so are most of the population
Dusk Road - The sleepy patrons or whatever in the inn. Their XP is horrible now.
Tower - Still good XP. Old senile players still swear by Tower XP because this is all they can remember how to lead, but the pop is not just timer based, and you can get multiple groups screwing things up in there.


SO MUCH has been done to try to get players out of hometowns. Waterdeep docks is still a great place to XP. I see a lot of people there. Elites still get done!

Don't get me going on the evil side. I haven't played evil much this wipe, but DK is the place to be. It's dark, what more can you ask for. The level 15 bats in Faang used to be GREAT. There were TONS of them, alas they are classless. HP used to be great because of vision requirements, but that is nerfed (see above). Do evils still do the area outside of Gloomhaven, to the east? I remember that being decent XP.



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Postby Rivi » Mon Jul 29, 2002 9:02 pm

I'm curious as to why the need for xp was continued?

What's the purpose to XP?

From the point of view of the player:
- Hours of mindless redundancy that becomes a requirement in order for the player to have any fun. When was the last time you as a player had fun doing xp?

Why is it that almost non of the RPG's except console rpgs, in some cases anyway, had the fun factor in gaining XP?

I think a good solution on this mud is to revamp the XP distribution in a drastic manner. What I propose is to make it so that all mobs of your level give the "perfect" xp. If they're exactly your level you should get 2% xp scaled up to 1% at L50. This is regardless to the number of players in your group. If the mob is one con notch higher or lower then it should scale down to 1% XP. If the mob is two con notch higher or lower, then it should scale down to .5% XP.

The main idea behind this is to encourage group xping while still making it worthwhile for solo xp. The mobs become easier as there are more group members but the xp doesn't become reduced. So there's no "penalty" for having more group members. Additionally it would also encourage people to explore more zones in order to find mobs their level.

It may also be worthwhile to balance this by introducing a harsher trophy system. But I'm not too sure about the level distribution of mobs on the mud so I don't know if this is necessary or unbalancing.
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Postby Horig » Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:16 am

Here's my viewpoint: I have just levelled a barb warrior to 43 in about 7 days playing time after coming back to Sojourn after a 4 year break.

I don't think goodies need more exp options until the high 30s/low 40s. That's when there is a gap. Ship exp is far, far better than any other alternative for those levels.

I'd have to agree with Ragorn. A relatively easy solution to this gap is to fix up HP and IC upper-level mobs. HP is completely deserted nowadays, except for GCD at boot, which is a real shame, since it is a well-designed zone with loads of variety. IC is the best designed mid-level zone, but exp taps out at 36 or so.

If these two zones were fixed up, 1. goodies would be encouraged to leave the WD area (a plus) and 2. both are good/evil zones, so it enhances all races.

I'd prefer to see more content added for level 50 than another exp zone for goodies. Exping is a necessary evil, but it's the content at 50 that keeps us all playing here.


Horig on holiday atm
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Jul 30, 2002 3:13 am

BTW, you're going to have to practically bribe people to go to IC these days. In the days of yesteryear, IC was two or three speedwalks away, seperated by a ferry (and possibly a moves limit if you didn't levitate or fly). The trip from WD to IC took 10-15 minutes depending on how you hit the ferry. The reason we went was, there were so FEW evil-aligned exp zones for the rangers and paladins to kill in. Goblin cave, split shield, BGR when that was added.. and then very little. We went to IC because it was decent exp for those of us who needed evil mobs.

Now there's an aggro zone stuck in the middle which frustrates speedwalking. The rares don't load anymore, so there's almost never a time when you can hop a well from a bored druid. The trip now takes 20 minutes minimum, once your speedwalk gets broken up by 3 or 4 weak aggros. This is to get to a zone full of wandering assisters and double-popping guards... a zone made obsolete in every way by SSC and monestary. Both are closer, easier in terms of assisters, both have evil mobs, and both offer better and more varied experience for trophy.

So yes, PLEASE beef up IC. Give 30s a reason to go there over SSC. Make the experience nice, since the trip is such a pain when compared to the equivalent zones.

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Postby Sarvis » Tue Jul 30, 2002 4:06 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rivi:
<B>I'm curious as to why the need for xp was continued?

What's the purpose to XP?

From the point of view of the player:
- Hours of mindless redundancy that becomes a requirement in order for the player to have any fun. When was the last time you as a player had fun doing xp?

Why is it that almost non of the RPG's except console rpgs, in some cases anyway, had the fun factor in gaining XP?

I think a good solution on this mud is to revamp the XP distribution in a drastic manner. What I propose is to make it so that all mobs of your level give the "perfect" xp. If they're exactly your level you should get 2% xp scaled up to 1% at L50. This is regardless to the number of players in your group. If the mob is one con notch higher or lower then it should scale down to 1% XP. If the mob is two con notch higher or lower, then it should scale down to .5% XP.

The main idea behind this is to encourage group xping while still making it worthwhile for solo xp. The mobs become easier as there are more group members but the xp doesn't become reduced. So there's no "penalty" for having more group members. Additionally it would also encourage people to explore more zones in order to find mobs their level.

It may also be worthwhile to balance this by introducing a harsher trophy system. But I'm not too sure about the level distribution of mobs on the mud so I don't know if this is necessary or unbalancing.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I usually have fun while doing xp. In fact, I've never even made it to high enough level to zone... but have still played here for 3 years now. The only time I don't like doing exp is if I'm trying to solo, because that _is_ boring. But doing exp in a group is cool because you can talk to people and goof off. :shrug: Maybe I'm just not enough of a powergamer to only care about zoning and getting items...

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Postby old depok » Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:07 pm

On Soj2 I remember spending much of my time as a lvl 30-40 warrior in shadow grove. In Soj3 I asked "hey whatever happened to that area around the Citadel that we used to go to all the time?" Answer: Got Nerfed.

I would like to see a zone that rewards a group of level 20-35 peeps with getting together a group (5-10 peeps) to actually do some zoning. maybe make it so that you can't even get in the zone without a certain number of people. Put some quests in there to make them think. Put some mobs in there that need some thoughts on tactics.

Above all, make sure that there is enough exp to go around!

Make the zoning experience start early!

Depok
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Postby Daz » Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:44 am

Never mind. I was going to say something, but I doubt anyone cares. I miss when sojourn encouraged grouping, instead of making you suffer for it as you do now.

"Sorry, 2 people in group already - no room for more."

scrap the lame justice code, and give back experience to classless mobs. I doubt a single player anymore includes exp as part of their RP.

"With righteous fury I smote the orcs beneath me until their rotting carcasses likened to reach the heavens. Oh, level!

"With righteous fury I smote the pirates
beneath me until . . . "

exp is all a boring part of proving your ability as a player and learning to play your class. what we kill doesn't matter, and making it reliant upon notions that are anything other than mindless leveling isn't good.

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