Artifacts of Power

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
Todrael
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Artifacts of Power

Postby Todrael » Mon Jul 22, 2002 6:30 pm

It is my opinion that Quest Sphere player bias is creating an atmosphere in the game of priveledged players.

Even if this is merely being at the right place at the right time, this bias is allowing many people to obtain renames, and in one case, an item that I would consider an artifact. Gormal's crown is a Surtur, by many considered the best crown in the game, only it has better stats.

If this is the case, even if it was just an extra -1 sv_spell (it's not, it's much better than that), I would prefer it to have (Artifact) at the end of it, just so everyone knows they won't be getting anything like it, ever, unless the bias switches to them, and so we can all be secure in the knowledge that the "no artifacts" rule has been done away with.

All of the people I know that have acquired renames fall into 3 categories: 1) old school elite players that were given personal quests, 2) random people who just happened to be there, 3) ultra-sexed up female roleplayers. I know a category 3 player that had two renames before anyone else even knew they were possible.

I'm just very upset with this trend that I have seen over a long period of time. I and many others have been grumbling about this sort of thing behind the scenes for months. It's nothing new. The information that set me to writing this was that an artifact had been given out, no matter how costly it was to acquire.

Yes, the quest is supposed to be fun, and have rewards. No, those rewards are not supposed to be artifacts. Yes, I consider something that is wholly unique and can never be acquired through any other way than a god creating it specifically for you an artifact. Or maybe I'm wrong and the Quest Sphere is allowed to do whatever it wants.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Gyrx
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Postby Gyrx » Mon Jul 22, 2002 6:40 pm

I'm with Todrael on this one. There's only one thing that I wouldn't give up to upgrade a piece of eq that is already the best in the game.

Why? Because I can replace all those pieces of eq in time.

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peACe oUt
laterZ
gyrx
Gormal
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Postby Gormal » Mon Jul 22, 2002 6:45 pm

As I understand it there are new restrictions just imposed on the quest gods as to giving out restrings/badges etc. My crown was a gift from Miax...not that he didn't make me and a ton of other people earn it.

Miax implied that he liked the idea of trading in lots of high level items like i did for a slightly upped high level item during an rp quest. He said he would possibly run one every now and then in the future. I'd assume this would be a rare thing...but I don't think mine will be the last.

There are other items floating around the game that you could call artifacts. Items that are no longer in the game that some people have; roots belt, torins, ic rares, etc....its just a feature the game has ALWAYS had...everyone envied the shit out of mplors and waelos' golden eyes but couldnt have them!

No, not everyone can have one...but life just isnt fair sometimes.



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Gormal Stoneforge -Hammerstrike-

"Forward Mithrilguard!"
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Mon Jul 22, 2002 6:52 pm

I never liked removing items from the game. In my opinion, Torin's and the roots belt should have just been downgraded or changed for all. Now a few people have (the original version of) them, and others never will. Why not change it for all?

What's good for the geese, is good for the gander.

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Postby Malacar » Mon Jul 22, 2002 6:54 pm

I'm so fully with Todrael on this, it hurts.

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Postby Dalar » Mon Jul 22, 2002 6:56 pm

The way i see it, Miax owns the MUD, Miax is the forger of the quest sphere... so he can do whatever he wants. You can also count the fact that on people who don't agree w/ what the gods do will never get something like this, such as kiryan or myself.

Re: Gormal
Those items you spoke of... I'm not too familiar with the dwarven king eyes but i know belt of sapphires, batskull earring, hide cloak, torin's were all unbiased when obtaining them. Anyone could have gotten them.

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Postby Lamruil » Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:09 pm

Todrael,

I respect your opinion but you also have to respect my response. There is no bias towards any players on the mud. I have had people come to me and ask for quests tailored to them, I say no. I don't pull favourites because I don't have to. The people who want to quest find me. As for artifacts, I'm not sure where you are leading with that, but they are removed to my knowledge. By your last paragraph are you wanting restrings pulled? This notice that you have posted here is erroneous in it's content and you should ask questions before posting drivel like this. Yes it is your opinion and I validate that.

Restrings were not given out, they were earned. and by your credit randomly. They are rare and shall continue to be rare.

However, not once in this message did you appreciate the work that goes in to providing quests etc. Quite frankly this is a last straw for me. If I'm being harsh, then I'm being harsh, but It is starting to get under my skin that the players aren't appreciating what the Quest sphere and other spheres are doing. Perhaps I'm over reacting but that is just my opinion at the moment.

Lamruil
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Postby Gormal » Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:13 pm

Do the few items out there that are unique unbalance the game in any way? No. 1 extra hitroll and 2 extra ss are not going to save my group ever.

Items being changed rather then just removed are done because the gods dont wanna screw the people who worked hard..and they are trying to fix things before it unbalances too much. Sometimes you get lucky I guess. This is just those people who are jealous whining as I see it.

I for one would be pretty upset if I got my unique stuff ganked just because people felt slighted. People with multiple strings/"unique" eq dont unbalance the game nearly as much as someone with say multiple tia items, restrings of their own, etc....

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Postby Dalar » Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:18 pm

If there's no biase towards players, then why were certain people chosen for a Iuz's campaign months ago? btw, what ever happened to that? I was really looking forward to it.

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Postby Lamruil » Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B>If there's no biase towards players, then why were certain people chosen for a Iuz's campaign months ago? btw, what ever happened to that? I was really looking forward to it.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They were randomly selected in a pre campaign quest, and the people that proved themselves were selected. It is an unbiased selection from the playerbase.

Lamruil
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Postby Nokie » Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:25 pm

This is the reason why it it's a really bad idea for employees to share their salaries with each other.

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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:28 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gormal:
<B>Do the few items out there that are unique unbalance the game in any way? No. 1 extra hitroll and 2 extra ss are not going to save my group ever.

Items being changed rather then just removed are done because the gods dont wanna screw the people who worked hard..and they are trying to fix things before it unbalances too much. Sometimes you get lucky I guess. This is just those people who are jealous whining as I see it.

I for one would be pretty upset if I got my unique stuff ganked just because people felt slighted. People with multiple strings/"unique" eq dont unbalance the game nearly as much as someone with say multiple tia items, restrings of their own, etc....
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not the stats that are important, it's the principle. Todrael said "It is my opinion that Quest Sphere player bias is creating an atmosphere in the game of priveledged players."

As for multiple tiamat items... at least everyone was given a fair chance. And if you use that "oh you're jealous" excuse please, I have enough eq to switch aroundstats and stuff and I have a personal hp minimum of 600 after which i don't care.

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Postby Lamruil » Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B> Todrael said "It is my opinion that Quest Sphere player bias is creating an atmosphere in the game of priveledged players."

As for multiple tiamat items... at least everyone was given a fair chance. And if you use that "oh you're jealous" excuse please, I have enough eq to switch aroundstats and stuff and I have a personal hp minimum of 600 after which i don't care.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Quest Sphere is not biased to any certain player. I treat all players equal regardless of their class, race, and level.

Lamruil
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Postby Jegzed » Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lamruil:
<B> The Quest Sphere is not biased to any certain player. I treat all players equal regardless of their class, race, and level.

Lamruil</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only problem is that questsphere is almost only active when I'm sleeping, so those of us that does not play primetime simply don't get the chances.



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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
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Postby Corth » Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:49 pm

One day... one day i will get a restring... (been telling myself this for years)

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Dugmaren » Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:58 pm

Gargauth tells you 'Ya man, ask Shev, he's got it all worked out into stages.'
You tell Shevarash 'Hey, Garg says you got the stages all worked out.. whats what?'

Shevarash tells you 'Stage1: Happy and Eager - you're amazed at all the cool things you can do and want to make the mud perfect.

Shevarash tells you 'Stage2: Angry and Bitter - after spending countless hours helping and fixing and finding out what players want and pouring your life into the mud whatever your sphere, players crap ALL over you. They don't like your zones, are pissed off at you for name changing, tell you your procs suck, and think everyones playing favorites in quests. - from all the gods in stage2 - Dugmaren gives everyone the bird.

Shevarash tells you 'Stage3: Jaded and Complacent - you've survived being a god long enough to not care what people think so much and just do your best anyways. You find people in Stage1 amusing.' <-- I think I just slipped into this one, anyone want popcorn for BBS?

Shevarash tells you 'Stage4: Forger'
Lamruil
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Postby Lamruil » Mon Jul 22, 2002 8:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B> The only problem is that questsphere is almost only active when I'm sleeping, so those of us that does not play primetime simply don't get the chances.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We do work on that, I have stayed up late and gotten up early and ran quests before, but it's hard to manage because we all have real lives that run by the time zones we live in. We do our best, but we do realise that there are time zones that aren't getting the attention and we are trying to quest at all hours.

Regards,
Lamruil
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Postby Gormal » Mon Jul 22, 2002 8:06 pm

This is obviously all a Canadian plot to piss off Americans an Europeans.

Die Dug and Lam!

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Lamruil
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Postby Lamruil » Mon Jul 22, 2002 8:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dugmaren:
<B>Gargauth tells you 'Ya man, ask Shev, he's got it all worked out into stages.'
You tell Shevarash 'Hey, Garg says you got the stages all worked out.. whats what?'

Shevarash tells you 'Stage1: Happy and Eager - you're amazed at all the cool things you can do and want to make the mud perfect.

Shevarash tells you 'Stage2: Angry and Bitter - after spending countless hours helping and fixing and finding out what players want and pouring your life into the mud whatever your sphere, players crap ALL over you. They don't like your zones, are pissed off at you for name changing, tell you your procs suck, and think everyones playing favorites in quests. - from all the gods in stage2 - Dugmaren gives everyone the bird.

Shevarash tells you 'Stage3: Jaded and Complacent - you've survived being a god long enough to not care what people think so much and just do your best anyways. You find people in Stage1 amusing.' <-- I think I just slipped into this one, anyone want popcorn for BBS?

Shevarash tells you 'Stage4: Forger'</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Looks like I'm in stage two on a quick route to stage three.

Lamruil
Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Jul 22, 2002 8:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dugmaren:
Shevarash tells you 'Stage3: Jaded and Complacent - you've survived being a god long enough to not care what people think so much and just do your best anyways. You find people in Stage1 amusing.' <-- I think I just slipped into this one, anyone want popcorn for BBS?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

D2 hands Dugmaren a PoPcOrN ball and a badge which reads 'It's ok - blame me'.

--D2

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Kiaransalee : (51) [ just call me beefy ]
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Postby Galkar » Mon Jul 22, 2002 8:55 pm

I think restrings are awesome.

I don't like artifacts, unless it's a pkill mud.

Gormal and many others busted ass to get that crown with its bonuses. Good work Image

What about the next group of people who come in and bust ass in a quest? Do they get a crown just as good? A restring of that crown? Or will Gormal be the only one in the game to EVER have a crown that good, thus no one else ever having the chance?

This could lead to a lot of bickering among players. The next one to get a unique piece of eq with upped stats might get pissed off because theirs wasn't as good as Gorms.

Yes, sounds childish, but you know it will happen.

Now, I'm not saying that the Quest Sphere is doing bad things or being biased. I'm just saying that I don't think it's fair to give out a spanky piece of eq to one group and never giving other groups something quite so good for working just as hard.

And if "No. 1 extra hitroll and 2 extra ss are not going to save my group ever" then why upgrade it at all? Why not just leave its stats as a surtur? *shrug*

Just my opinion, no matter what happens, it's not gonna tweak my nerves a bit. As Gormal said, life isn't fair. But we can try to make it that way Image

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Postby Grungar » Mon Jul 22, 2002 9:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galkar:
<B>Gormal and many others busted ass to get that crown with its bonuses.

What about the next group of people who come in and bust ass in a quest?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was always under the impression that 'to bust ass' was colloquial for flatulence. Heh.

- Grungar "Pass the beans, I need a new pair of boots" Forgefire
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Mon Jul 22, 2002 9:11 pm

First off, I have no problem with renames, just with the apparent mechanism used for choosing who receives them. They seem rare, but then certain people have several of them, and the categories of people that have them are those listed above. I have not heard of personal quests for players that are not old school and well established, unless you count the one over-sexed player that received two early on.

These observations lead me, and many others, to feel that restrings are rewarded unfairly. Truly, anything that is handed out by a human being through means other than a random lottery will always be in some fashion tailored towards certain players than others.

Regarding artifacts, the facts as they are right now:
There is a ac12 +4hit -10 sv_spell no-summon prot-fire crown in the game.
There will never be another ac12 +4hit -10 sv_spell no-summon prot-fire crown put into the game.
The only one of these crowns in the game was hand-crafted by a God, with those specific stats, and with a specific unique name, for a specific individual.

The most important of those facts to consider: No other individual in the game will receive a specific, unique, hand-crafted ac12 +4hit -10 sv_spell no-summon prot-fire crown.

This makes it an Artifact. No matter how you'd like to quibble about the definition, or nit-pick at other examples, or say that an extra +1hit -2 sv_spell won't save your group, this item is an Artifact.

1) It has stats greater than any other item for that slot in the game.
2) It is unavailable to any other player in the game.
3) It was hand-crafted by the gods.

Soj3 is supposed to be completely unbiased by the Gods and everyone should have an equal opportunity (given the amount of work they want to put in) to get any item. Miax: "There will be no Artifacts on Sojourn3." Today: There are artifacts in Sojourn3. How hard they are to get is completely irrelevent. How much more powerful they are over regular items is irrelevent. They are Artifacts.

The simple response would be for Miax to say "Artifacts are allowed now." I would have absolutely no complaints then. However, under the current rules governing Artifact items, I would ask that Gormal's crown stats be altered back to normal Surtur, and that some 20hp slow poison gloves I heard belong to Narsliss (this is unconfirmed) be reset to ogrehide or equivalent.

The word "bias" which I used to describe the current state of things on the mud was perhaps an incorrect use of the word. Re-wording my initial statement: It is my opinion that certain specific individuals have been given opportunities not available to the mud at large, creating the atmosphere of priveledged individuals on the mud.

I, personally, am not jealous of these events. I do however note that they break the established rules. If I was offered an item of similar strength, I would ask if artifacts were allowed now. The point is, I, nor anyone else on the mud, was, and never will be, offered, or in any other way have the capability of, acquiring an ac12 +4 hit -10 sv_spell no-summon prot-fire crown.

Dugmaren points out that the Gods often receive negative comments about their hard work. Although I disagree with many things, and feel that certain aspects of the mud detract from my enjoyment of the game, I do feel that the Gods deserve my respect and thanks for what they have done. Despite my thanks and respect, I feel it is my duty as a player to make sure that the mud uphold the standards set forth by its own creators, even and especially when it is those very individuals that are not following them.

Clearly stated policies regarding these items would be most welcome.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Postby Todrael » Mon Jul 22, 2002 9:22 pm

Forgot it's also farsee.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Postby Lamruil » Mon Jul 22, 2002 9:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>First off, I have no problem with renames, just with the apparent mechanism used for choosing who receives them. They seem rare, but then certain people have several of them, and the categories of people that have them are those listed above. I have not heard of personal quests for players that are not old school and well established, unless you count the one over-sexed player that received two early on.

These observations lead me, and many others, to feel that restrings are rewarded unfairly. Truly, anything that is handed out by a human being through means other than a random lottery will always be in some fashion tailored towards certain players than others.

Regarding artifacts, the facts as they are right now:
There is a ac12 +4hit -10 sv_spell no-summon prot-fire crown in the game.
There will never be another ac12 +4hit -10 sv_spell no-summon prot-fire crown put into the game.
The only one of these crowns in the game was hand-crafted by a God, with those specific stats, and with a specific unique name, for a specific individual.

The most important of those facts to consider: No other individual in the game will receive a specific, unique, hand-crafted ac12 +4hit -10 sv_spell no-summon prot-fire crown.

This makes it an Artifact. No matter how you'd like to quibble about the definition, or nit-pick at other examples, or say that an extra +1hit -2 sv_spell won't save your group, this item is an Artifact.

1) It has stats greater than any other item for that slot in the game.
2) It is unavailable to any other player in the game.
3) It was hand-crafted by the gods.

Soj3 is supposed to be completely unbiased by the Gods and everyone should have an equal opportunity (given the amount of work they want to put in) to get any item. Miax: "There will be no Artifacts on Sojourn3." Today: There are artifacts in Sojourn3. How hard they are to get is completely irrelevent. How much more powerful they are over regular items is irrelevent. They are Artifacts.

The simple response would be for Miax to say "Artifacts are allowed now." I would have absolutely no complaints then. However, under the current rules governing Artifact items, I would ask that Gormal's crown stats be altered back to normal Surtur, and that some 20hp slow poison gloves I heard belong to Narsliss (this is unconfirmed) be reset to ogrehide or equivalent.

The word "bias" which I used to describe the current state of things on the mud was perhaps an incorrect use of the word. Re-wording my initial statement: It is my opinion that certain specific individuals have been given opportunities not available to the mud at large, creating the atmosphere of priveledged individuals on the mud.

I, personally, am not jealous of these events. I do however note that they break the established rules. If I was offered an item of similar strength, I would ask if artifacts were allowed now. The point is, I, nor anyone else on the mud, was, and never will be, offered, or in any other way have the capability of, acquiring an ac12 +4 hit -10 sv_spell no-summon prot-fire crown.

Dugmaren points out that the Gods often receive negative comments about their hard work. Although I disagree with many things, and feel that certain aspects of the mud detract from my enjoyment of the game, I do feel that the Gods deserve my respect and thanks for what they have done. Despite my thanks and respect, I feel it is my duty as a player to make sure that the mud uphold the standards set forth by its own creators, even and especially when it is those very individuals that are not following them.

Clearly stated policies regarding these items would be most welcome.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*Entrance to Stage 3*

When did you become a quest God and figure out what is going to be handed out when and who is going to get what and where? Thats funny is there a leak in the Q Sphere that is telling Toddy that there will be no more equipment given out ever? Damn I'm out of the loop, Toddy, mind giving me your source? Oh wait, it's all random and we don't plan who gets what remember? I just said that earlier.

Todd, Look I understand that you are a little pissed // jealous // whatever, but wait your turn and buck up. There is no point in coming on here and whining, "this is an artifact and it's unfiar" well the fact of the matter is, you don't know what is going to be happening in the future, so go out there, RP and have a good time. Image

Lamruil
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Postby Todrael » Mon Jul 22, 2002 9:44 pm

With all due respect, your personal flame against me is unwelcome, and with regards to your flippant and sarcastic dismissal of the issues, you did not answer any of my questions or concerns.

No future plans, no matter how grand, no matter how fun or unique or interesting, no matter what, even if they allow new people to acquire the exact same item, will take away it's status as an artifact.

No where did I say it was "unfair". I am not "pissed". I am not "jealous". I am not "whining". If it makes it easier for you to justify your actions by thinking that I am, then that's up to you. I merely want people to follow the stated rules regarding the game, no matter who they are or what the rule is.

If it's not hardcoded into the game, it's an artifact. Artifacts are not allowed. A restatement of the policies regarding the award system in the quest sphere is required.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jul 22, 2002 9:47 pm

Besides, the crown is pretty good looking, and Gormal needed all the help he could get in that category.
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Postby Ensis » Mon Jul 22, 2002 10:06 pm

Are you going to be happy if they take away all the restrings and Gormal's crown?

Leave it alone. There is quest upon quest, Evils have restrings as well as goodies. Maybe gormal's crown was just a test to see how people would react to Arti's coming back in the game. If it was, I'll be sad to realize that they will never be again. I always loved seeing the cool unique items, and no, i didn't turn green in envy because i didn't have one.

I think if you were on the receiving end, which you still could be, i don't think you would complain.

Besides, as for pointing the finger at gormal, he would've taken it if it was a restrung ac 2 -100 hp -3 hit/dam +10 ss crown.



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Postby torkur » Mon Jul 22, 2002 10:55 pm

Actually, a few weeks ago my ship xp group was singled out for a tailored quest when we were all RPing for fun.....my alt was level 39 and the highest level PC there, with noone really "l33t" in it.....we all had a blast and were surprised even the nobodys of the mud get to enjoy the campaign.

It is all place and time based to get to participate.....
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Postby sheesh » Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:25 pm

restrings = fine

unique uber eq > anything in game = bad
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Postby Dezzex » Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:35 pm

I get the impression most people are ignoring/dismissing/missing Tod's points... there is no finger pointing going on.. Gormal has the crown, so Gormal was the example. This has nothing to do with evils vs. goods, object balance, the virtues of the Quest sphere, or what have you. The question is, has the policy on artifacts changed, because there is evidence that it has.
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Postby Jurdex » Tue Jul 23, 2002 12:16 am

I'm not sure what Gormal had to give up for his crown. Maybe it was a lot of eq, maybe it was a lot of effort and time.

Who knows?

Who cares?

Gormal's crown isn't an artifact.

On Toril there were four levels of eq that I am aware of:

1) Normal eq.
2) Unique eq.
3) Artifact eq.
4) Relic eq.

Gormal's crown is slightly better than normal eq, but it is not even remotely close to uniques as they were previously. If uniques are going to be entered back into the game (which I am in favor of) and they stay on par with Gormal's crown, then I don't see a problem.

His crown isn't even worthy of being a tia item. Old uniques were better than tia items. Also, artifacts and relics could never be lost, even if you lost your eq (uniques could be lost). Gormal's crown can be lost.

Also, restrings don't make an item better or one player better than another player or item. Restrings certainly don't make one player's enjoyment of the game lessen the enjoyment of another. All it is is a different set of colored ansi. Its more or less adding atmosphere to the mud.

People always complained everyone was a cookie cutter image of each other when it came to eq. Now that is no longer the case and people grumble. Most of the restrings I am aware of have been awarded randomly through quests open to everyone.

Is there something wrong with rewarding the people who help make the mud a better place?

Dornax
Jurdex

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The Raven of Wisdom

Est Sularus Oth Mithas
"My Honor is My Life"
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Tue Jul 23, 2002 12:31 am

It's random... why him and not someone else? How does he make the mud a better place? I can name quite some people who do a lot more IMHO (notice the IMHO? <- that's exactly why this kind of thing is wrong).

And if the little extra affects on the crown don't matter, then why not just restring a normal crown? Sorry, but I agree that this is incorrect. 1hit and 1ss _are_ a huge deal to power players. And nobody is arguing about restrings, those are fine.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over this and don't care, but it's still wrong in my view. Restrung, no prob. Changed to uber, wrong. Favoritism is inevitably the word that will be mentioned, because the eq IS uber and others cannot gain it. Yes, you can do god quests for others, but that leaves what, 10? 20? uber items. The rest of the mud is still left out. This wouldn't be the case if it was just a resting.

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Postby kiryan » Tue Jul 23, 2002 12:36 am

oof, heres my take which i know your all waiting for.

somewhat agree with tod, in particular i think the statement about 0 artifacts should be revised. there are artifacts. not avernus/doombringer type artifacts but definitely artifacts. both god given and demi in game !load ones.

now for some other comments.
i try real hard not to be jealous. i try real hard not to make accusations. but i think its a bit uncool when some players are walking around with multiple restrings and multiple "artifacts" when I dont believe ive ever been given the opportunity to play for one. not only that it seems to me that if a player got a restring or an artifact he usually has a couple. I think i know one player with 3 and interesting enough some of his closest associates also have special gear.

do i want them out of the game, no i suppose not, they arent insane out of balance yet. they are fun and i don't want to ruin others fun just cuz i dont get it, but it still kinda sucks to hope day after day someone might contact you and know it will not be happening cuz you pissed off the gods on the boards or via petition or simply for being such a great player that everyone hates on you (thats dartan btw).

i dislike the demi-artifacts, eq that was changed but old ones left intact. can you name one item that was upgraded where all the old ones were left in their old state? i guess i can, 2h gith sword, but thats also a quest now where it was just a drop before.

How about tiamat? 4 individuals were asked to attempt it, knowledge was very limited, no official announcements that tiamat was open for a limited time or a set number of runs, and intense god intervention was required. sure there were good reasons for teh selection and the distribution, now its 3 months later and no word on when itll be back in, personally id put a big if on whether it will be doable since i doubt coming up with 25 people to spend 8-20 hours to get the absolute best eq in the game will be hard and i doubt the forgers want 30 valhalla scepters in the game.

so, i dont really think you can say the selection has been unbiased in the past here on soj3. furthermore, if you have people making choices amongst players, its going to be biased. biased towards players with the most ptime, US ptimes, the most friends, the most history, with eq that are willing to trade up for greater eq, from the right guild, possible the complete opposite if yo happen to get a god who likes to do the unpredicatable. if you roll dice then your starting to talk !bias. you all do your best, but please dont claim 0 bias. some of the heat in this thread is just an issue of semantics. you try and claim 0 bias, folks gonna jump all over you and try to prove to you how biased you really are.

anyhow id love to know how people get picked for this shit. if i knew how id certainly be doing it. i did pick up in a post a while back that if you wanna be in quests, make sure your rp flag is togged. since then i tog my flag, not cuz i wanna rp with my boring ship group, but cuz i wanna rp in an event/quest. now if i read this thread correctly, we should contact individual gods and express our interest in questing.

guess im a bit oldschool in that i thought it was inappropriate to talk to the gods and ask them to hook your shit up. oh and of course that wouldnt be the way, youd wanna talk nice and joke around with them, get friendly, then casually suggest that they run a quest that you magically end up being the center of. same difference is it not?

is that how you get to do these artifacts/restrings/quests? isnt there supposed to be a strong level of impartiality between administration and players? i think that this has been sorely breached, for the better in general, but it makes it easy for us to cry favortism in specific situations like quests and artifacts. i definitely think there are favorites and im reasonably sure im not one of them.

anyhow keep up the questing, keep giving out the artifacts and restrings, ignore us jealous player haters, and by all means prove us wrong by being unbiased.

i personally would love to do some quests, id love to do some real RP not some contrived hack and slash illithids bargaining with species they would consider food, ogres that exhibit genius intelligence and eloquent speech, and drow that wont backstab you at the first sign of weakness. if your a bad ass troll and someone doesnt give you what you want you fight them even if you as a player know your gonna get your ass kicked. anyhow you gods come play with caz. you know you hate him, why not come kill him a few times in the guise of quest =). ask me to log him on, i will do so for your amuesment. bring some acid breathing bunnies too. i promise itll make you feel better!
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jul 23, 2002 1:00 am

If you want to get that technical about what is RP and what isn't... illithids wouldn't be chumming with you and the drow. There's ample opportunity for RP within even the hack and slash type quests, as long as you're even halfway willing to play along.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Jul 23, 2002 1:28 am

thank you for your brilliant insight ashiwi. i indicated 3 situations and did not imply that they were all grouped together and occuring at the same time. yes there is room for lots of liberty. the key is consistency, some realism, and trying not to let your desires and expert knowledge be transferred into your character.

i may have indicated my method is superior to others but i definitely didnt indicate that you shouldnt be allowed to rp anyway you want or that you shouldnt be rewarded for rping in ways that i dont approve.

im issuing a challege to the quest gods, come rp with me. but be warned cuz ill rp, not race to the finish line so i can get a prize not run off and collect a bunch of crap or save a bunch of people cuz some mob asked me too.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Jul 23, 2002 1:29 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>With all due respect, your personal flame against me is unwelcome, and with regards to your flippant and sarcastic dismissal of the issues, you did not answer any of my questions or concerns.

No future plans, no matter how grand, no matter how fun or unique or interesting, no matter what, even if they allow new people to acquire the exact same item, will take away it's status as an artifact.

No where did I say it was "unfair". I am not "pissed". I am not "jealous". I am not "whining". If it makes it easier for you to justify your actions by thinking that I am, then that's up to you. I merely want people to follow the stated rules regarding the game, no matter who they are or what the rule is.

If it's not hardcoded into the game, it's an artifact. Artifacts are not allowed. A restatement of the policies regarding the award system in the quest sphere is required.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately there is no 'constitution' of players rights that was written on the 05/15/01 webpage too. Gods can easily just say "oops i didn't mean that." They got you hooked now and can screw w/ u any way they want. I've had it happen to me both for good and bad. Welcome to Sojourn3! You're in our world now!

I agree with you though Tod, having a unique item in game makes this game completely biased now.

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You group-say 'Go-chan looks like a man'
Sinusosaxiy group-projects 'if she is a man call me gay'
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Postby Mplor » Tue Jul 23, 2002 1:47 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>On Toril there were four levels of eq that I am aware of:

1) Normal eq.
2) Unique eq.
3) Artifact eq.
4) Relic eq.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it was closer to:

1) Normal eq.
2) Unique eq. = Restrung normal eq
3) Relic eq. = God-crafted, uber-stat, no strings attached, no guarantees.
4) Artifact eq. = Relic with the lifetime, bumper-to-bumper service agreement. Upgradeable at god's discretion, and will be replaced if lost.

Gormal's crown falls under relic category, not artifact. If you are basing your complaint on the statement that there will be no more artifacts, then you are missing some important information affecting your argument. Miax made the definitions listed above, and you can bet he knew exactly what he was saying when he announced there would be no more artifacts.

You may not like the fact that there are relics in the game, but you cannot legitimately accuse the gods of reneging on the rules.

Nothin personal. For the record, I'd rather if there were artifacts in the game. You're just poorly informed on this one, boo.

Mp

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(edit: removed a sentence meant as a reply to the original post, but actually was stated by someone else later in the thread)

[This message has been edited by Mplor (edited 07-22-2002).]
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Postby Gyrx » Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:22 am

I agree with Dezzex, so i'm not going to resay everything he did.

Also, while I was at work I was thinking about this topic. Mind you, this is all if the "no artifacts" rule is recalled. Maybe it doesn't need to.

People get level 50, they then have the opportunity to write a story to get a title. I think that's pretty sweet. What if we go a step further?

After people write their story and get a title, they too can go thru a god quest that is completely tailored to their specific character. All level 50's could get this opportunity, but if someone is working on another piece of eq for their 2nd level 50 they'll have to take back seat to anyone waiting that's working on their first level 50. Only the person that the eq was designed for can use it. No selling/giving it to another char. If they do, nuke em.

Personally, I think that'd be sweet. I can think of a lot of potential for it. But then again it may be unbalancing. I'm wondering what everyone else has to think..

Comments? Questions? Smart remarks?

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peACe oUt
laterZ
gyrx
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Postby Malacar » Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gyrx:
<B> Smart remarks?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bahahahahahahaha... This is a BBS, might I remind you.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
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Postby Gromikazer » Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:32 am

No individuals were picked for tiamat. I know I certaintly wasn't. I formulated and planned for weeks to do tiamat, and then posted 2-3 weeks before I did that I was going to attempt to do tiamat. That really is a stupid argument that the gods asked 4 people to attempt to do tiamat. ROFL.

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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
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Postby Wargo » Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:34 am

I hereby submit my "the ancient crown of thunderous divinity" to go through the same quest Gormal and Co. went through to receive the same extra +1hit -2ss and restring changes. Prove to us that you are unbiased by saying yes or prove to us that you are baised by saying no. I don't really care either way, but heck I will hold you to it if you say yes Image

Yssilk
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Postby Zungar » Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:40 am

Personally I like the idea of individuals having special things that noone else has. It makes the game more fun for me to see someone wearing something I will never get. Yes I may be envious, but Someday I aspire to have SOMETHING that every freakin tom,dick, and harriet does NOT have. The armor Thadrin is merely restrung Antiquated Elven plate, but it lookes really cool, and I like to see things like that.

Quit bickering about stuff like this. If you don't like the way the gods run the show, nobody is making you stay. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

This isn't ment as a flame by the way, merely my opinion. So what if player X has something better than you. Big deal. If I have a better car than you do, a car that you will never in this lifetime be able to afford, are you gonna bitch and complain to mommy and daddy about that too? I'll lay odds that you wouldn't.

Kick back, take the chip down off your shoulder, and be patient. One day you just might get snatched up in one of the quest things and recieve your very own UBER piece of eq or restring or whatever.

With much love to the Quest gods and everyone else...

Zungar "Tomb Raider my ass. I want my artifact handed to me on a silver platter!" Eye Gone

[This message has been edited by Zungar (edited 07-22-2002).]
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Postby Rurga » Tue Jul 23, 2002 2:53 am

Not to go off subject, but I would like to ask a question that goes with the quest topic.

How and when do you decide on who gets quested and who doesnt? I've played here since wipe roughly. Took a small break, then came back full time. I have 3 40+ chars, and many others who are 20+. I always have RP on. I always have a desc, last name, etc. Save for one of my chars. I try to rp when possible, and to date, I've ever only been involved in one quest, and it was for a token for some prestige which I forgot to turn in and rented actually but that's aside the point. I had a lot of fun, even if it was a little 10-15 minute quest for me and one other person..

My question being, how do we get invovled on this? I've been trying.. I've talked to a few people, and I get the same answers.. "Have RP on" Well. I have RP on.. And I mud -alot- ask anyone who knows me. So.. insights?


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Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 23, 2002 3:27 am

If you really want to know how Gormal obtained his "artifact", then line up.

And give me about 6 pieces of top-end eq (diamondine earring, OLD sapphire belt, fg gauntlets, and a few other things too).

That's what I milked out of him that night he did his FULLY RP'D quest to get it. And he had to endure a randomized 30 second tick timer that did echo's to him about a parrot squawking in his ear. On telnet even.

Now, Todrael, I believe you currently possess at least 1 restring, and another restring which (if you haven't figured out) is for part of the campaign. You are a good RP'er, and that as well as your participation and contribution to the ongoing campaign is what we decides warrants what rewards to what people at the end of everything.

You want to know about rewards? Well I'm only going to say there will be no "that's just a damn restrung psilk" items handed out to anyone, but then again we won't be handing out bags of stuff like we used to during Monty Iuz either. So be patient, RP and participate, and maybe you might find yourself at the receiving end of an infinite possibility of rewards...

The last thing too, is that Gormal's quest was HAND-RUN by Miax (myself supporting while he handcreated rooms and objects for it), for a going-away thing, since he was about to ship off to boot camp. He has been a good player and a great person over the years on Sojourn, and he has never been shown any "favoritism" ever. In fact, he was at one time deleted and banned. But people change and mature, and that's what we look at.

For those of you who have very vocal dislikes of myself and the rest of the Quest staff and our practices, I offer you a challenge to even TRY to participate, instead of taunting us to the point of retorting with smartass remarks (not directed towards anyone in general). Maybe you too will realize how much time and effort we have put into making this campaign a truly mind-blowing experience (just wait, it's just barely starting to warm up) at the end.

Your resident sadistic torturelord,

Malar - aka Beastie

P.S. This is not a personal attack on anyone, I'm just trying to clear things up on that night. Hope all of you are enjoying yourself with the campaign, and campaign activity shall soon start whirring into full action again soon. (RL issues with some of us, plus Miax has the flu.)
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Postby Todrael » Tue Jul 23, 2002 3:41 am

I was given an item that I later discovered was part of the quest campaign through ooc conversations with other players. Todrael has no ic knowledge of it's relevence, and keeps it on storage. I have a badge that I won in monty-iuz that I never wear because it is so damn fugly, and because no one would wear what the item is named anyways, even a lich.

I'm heavily into RP. I remember recently there was a storm while I was riding the exp ship, and I managed to pull out a full line or longer very thematic emote for every area echo that was apparently planned in advance. At the end of this, another player walked into the room and had an echo sent specifically to them. Apparently, I wasn't even being watched, and it was for their benefit.

Theme and RP are very important to me, but I often remove my RP flag because it is difficult to remain in a semblance of character while zoning or being asked item stats, etc. There's just so much to break character at the high end of the game.

I will continue to play this game, as always, the same way I always have. I have a character, I have a background, I have a description I like very much and always picture when thinking of what my character is doing. I'm not going anywhere. I like clarification, and I'm glad that so many people are interested and thinking about this topic.

BTW, a going-away present is bias.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Postby Lamruil » Tue Jul 23, 2002 3:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B> Unfortunately there is no 'constitution' of players rights that was written on the 05/15/01 webpage too. Gods can easily just say "oops i didn't mean that." They got you hooked now and can screw w/ u any way they want. I've had it happen to me both for good and bad. Welcome to Sojourn3! You're in our world now!

I agree with you though Tod, having a unique item in game makes this game completely biased now.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm really going to have to hold my tongue on this one. Dart, I have quested you tonnes of times because you were the first to pick up on my cues. You are an excellent player and I wouldn't trade you in ... well yeah I would but still :P . HOWEVER, I have also had to stop running quests for you because your an ungreatful sot (read: ungreatful sot *tease*) and think that the quest or giving up items is bullshit (read: "Dartan group-says 'this is bullshit'" :P) So the fact is, we do this for your enjoyment, if you don't like it and think we are all screwing with the players on the mud. Do something about it. RP. Create a RP style and function, instill a sense of 'proper' (read: you thoughts of proper) RP in the realms. *shrug*

:smile:

Regards,
Lamruil
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Postby Auril » Tue Jul 23, 2002 3:52 am

I have not yet read all of the messages in this thread, but I would like to comment about the suggestion that only certain people ever get quested.

I spend a week, soon after the new campaign was mentioned in Announcements, going to each person who had RP on and was a class which prayed for spells, and attempted to quest them. It was very minor at the start, as such things must be, and the only comment I saw on the BBS about it was that I was stupid for trying to quest someone who was 'obviously' busy. Seven responded, and they received additional information. The week after that, I looked for those who had responded and tried to do more. I got a solid response, and the quest was posted on the BBS.

Please tell me that every single RP shaman, cleric, paladin, anti-paladin, druid and ranger (and I even chose a few liches just for fun) somehow fits your criteria for being biased...
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Postby Jurdex » Tue Jul 23, 2002 4:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mplor:
<B> I think it was closer to:

1) Normal eq.
2) Unique eq. = Restrung normal eq
3) Relic eq. = God-crafted, uber-stat, no strings attached, no guarantees.
4) Artifact eq. = Relic with the lifetime, bumper-to-bumper service agreement. Upgradeable at god's discretion, and will be replaced if lost.

Gormal's crown falls under relic category, not artifact. If you are basing your complaint on the statement that there will be no more artifacts, then you are missing some important information affecting your argument. Miax made the definitions listed above, and you can bet he knew exactly what he was saying when he announced there would be no more artifacts.


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I think my list was accurate.

1) Normal eq = eq that drops in the normal mud, could be lost (ie: a decorated leather eyepatch, a fiery crown of the surtur)

2) Unique eq = can be either restrung in name only or also restrung in stats, could be lost (ie: the magical scale-plated boots of the ancient red dragons, Gormal's crown too I think)

3) Artifact eq = 2nd most uber items in the realms that could not be lost by the owner (ie: Avernus, Frugleheim, etc)

4) Relic eq = the most uber items in the realms, could not be lost by the owner (ie: Fade, Kelrom, Doombringer, etc)

At least I believe that is how Miax explained it to me when I got the ancient mighty war axe of Kelrom the Great, Hero of the Goldenfields. It was a relic.

Gormal's crown isn't even as uber as my unique pair of boots were.. so I don't see how they can be considered even remotely near artifact level.. the crown is a unique it seems to me, and Miax never said no more uniques, I think. Just no more artifacts/relics.

If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me. Image

Dornax
Jurdex

------------------
The Raven of Wisdom

Est Sularus Oth Mithas
"My Honor is My Life"

[This message has been edited by Jurdex (edited 07-23-2002).]
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Postby Kerath » Tue Jul 23, 2002 4:41 am

I admit that I'm veering off topic with this, but I was struck by an idea that I wanted you folks to consider.

How about if items like Gormal's crown became available to any level 50? They could go through some sort of application or qualification process to gain access to a tough, nasty quest that would make them sacrifice a lot of top-end gear to get a boosted stat item.

But, I was thinking, it's a quest based on RP, so therefore the item is an award for THAT CHARACTER RPing. If Gormal the weaponsmaster, dragonslayer, battle-hardened top-skill warrior has a nice item that's a cut above, it's cool and fitting with the character. But, here's where my idea kicks in.

Make the item ONLY wearable by the character that quested it. If it gets handed off, it explodes or something, or loses all of its stats until it gets returned to its rightful owner. If Gormal decides to make a weenie level 1 rogue that hasn't accomplished jack-all in the realms, why should it be able to wear almighty warrior Gormal's crown? That's just plain lame. It's the same player, but from an RP standpoint, the two characters are very different individuals. That way, you can only swap the gear that everyone has access to (well, assuming you can get into zoning groups, that is) and the unique, boosted gear stays on the uber character.

Just a quick idea, written pretty much as I was formulating it and not proofread. Lemme know what you think! Obviously it's pretty rough around the edges. Like anything, it can be refined with careful thought.

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