Clerics

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Ashemiem
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Clerics

Postby Ashemiem » Wed Aug 07, 2002 11:05 pm

There have been no small number of posts dedicated to clerics. Well I'm starting another thread with some of my own ideas for the class. :P

Two areas where a cleric seems weak compared to literature clerics are in regards to dealing with Demons and Undead. So I've looked at focusing my thoughts in that general direction.

For undead, I would propose altering the spell Turn Undead. Currently it does a bit of damage, and has a chance to make undead flee. On very low level undead, it actually destroys them outright, but I think it's like lvl - 40 for destruction or something. Maybe just the death due to damage msg, whatever.

The problem is - it's a spell that a cleric has to pray. And it's generally less useful than having a 5th armor spell, or a 4th create food spell prepared. So I would like to propose that the Turn Undead spell be turned into a class innate of Clerics, Anti-Pal's and Paladins. It would be usable a scaled number of times based on level - perhaps level/5 or 10 to determine the amount of usage. Pali/Anti would receive half the amount turnings.

The effects of the ability would be modified as well. There would now be a scaled effect similar to that of (un)holy word. All undead would be dealt a scaled amount of damage based on the cleric's level. Mobs 30+ levels lower than the turner are destroyed, regardless of damage actually rolled. Mobs 20-30 levels lower are perm-blinded and flee. Mobs higher than 20 levels lower than the cleric just take damage and flee.

That's the general gist of the idea. Take turn undead out of the spell list. Make it an innate ability. Make it do more damage than it currently does, with side effects on weaker undead. Don't focus on the numbers I tossed out, because they might not be the best numbers for the idea. But turning undead is one of the primary functions of a cleric, second to healing but it's still a primary tenent of the class. It would be nice if it's sole claim to fame was one of our few spells with actual ansi.

Oh, and evil aligned might take control of the undead, instead of forcing flee? Just a thought.

Had a thought for increased demon effectiveness, lost it. Oh well, down with undead!

Ashemiem Autumnmoon
You raise your holy symbol and shout, 'Begone'. The undead stare in amazement at a cleric spell with ansi and don't go anywhere. *snap*

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Deltin
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Postby Deltin » Thu Aug 08, 2002 12:09 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashemiem:
<B>
Oh, and evil aligned might take control of the undead, instead of forcing flee? Just a thought.

Ashemiem Autumnmoon
You raise your holy symbol and shout, 'Begone'. The undead stare in amazement at a cleric spell with ansi and don't go anywhere. *snap*

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually changed my alignment to neutral just so I could try command undead, not a useful spell at all imo. Certainly in all the rpg games and books etc clerics have certain abilities that make them excellent against undead/demons. Eradicate undead isn't worth forgetting full harms and meming them.
(plink)(plink) my 2 cents


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So whad are we gonna do tonight Brain? Same thing we do everynight Pinky, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
Gormal
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Postby Gormal » Thu Aug 08, 2002 4:49 pm

eradicate undead damage is so much more then full heal vs undead. I get tons of kills in scrops because of it.

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Deltin
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Postby Deltin » Thu Aug 08, 2002 5:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gormal:
<B>eradicate undead damage is so much more then full heal vs undead. I get tons of kills in scrops because of it.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's interesting cause last time I brought this up an admin or someone responded and said that eradicate is only marginaly better than full harm....

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So whad are we gonna do tonight Brain? Same thing we do everynight Pinky, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu Aug 08, 2002 10:06 pm

erad has certain.... advantages to its use.

I personally think clerics are a little weak vs. demons. Does anyone remember the banishment idea? Should be able to force a demon to teleport... that way you don't have to deal with quite so many demons at once.

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rylan
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Postby rylan » Fri Aug 09, 2002 12:52 am

Ashem has some good ideas.. And btw I think turn undead only insta-kills level 1 or 2 stuff.. I've uses it on the zombies and skeletons in the city of the dead in WD and it puts them to scratches and they're at max in 1 round.. so thats about 2 hps? hahahaha
It is a quite useless spell :P

About eradicate.. its got a 2 star QC so you can cast it in a single round.. full harm is 3 stars on QC.
Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Aug 09, 2002 1:18 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Deltin:
<B> That's interesting cause last time I brought this up an admin or someone responded and said that eradicate is only marginaly better than full harm....

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eradicate undead does significantly more than full harm against undead. (And yes, that includes the fact that full harm is specialized).
Deltin
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Postby Deltin » Fri Aug 09, 2002 1:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Iyachtu:
<B> Eradicate undead does significantly more than full harm against undead. (And yes, that includes the fact that full harm is specialized).

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HHmmm ok if you say so hehehe this was your quote from a different thread "I should point out that some of his numbers are off. Full harm does more than 100 damage, eradicate undead compares favorably to it, though not tremendously better."
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/001695.html




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So whad are we gonna do tonight Brain? Same thing we do everynight Pinky, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
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Postby Guest » Sun Aug 11, 2002 8:20 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Deltin:
<B> HHmmm ok if you say so hehehe this was your quote from a different thread "I should point out that some of his numbers are off. Full harm does more than 100 damage, eradicate undead compares favorably to it, though not tremendously better."
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/001695.html


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if you take the quote to say that it does almost identical damage, then you need to pay more attention to the semantics. It doesn't do double the amount of damage, but it does 'compare favorably' or do 'significantly more' damage, however you think i *should* have phrased it.

Saying that I said it does 'marginally' better damage is a mis-statement of what I said.

In addition to all of that, eradicate casts faster (which wasn't a part of the test I conducted at the time, since I'm a god and have basically insta-cast).

And you called me an Admin?!


[This message has been edited by Iyachtu (edited 08-11-2002).]
Deltin
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Postby Deltin » Sun Aug 11, 2002 6:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Iyachtu:
<B> Well, if you take the quote to say that it does almost identical damage, then you need to pay more attention to the semantics. It doesn't do double the amount of damage, but it does 'compare favorably' or do 'significantly more' damage, however you think i *should* have phrased it.

Saying that I said it does 'marginally' better damage is a mis-statement of what I said.

In addition to all of that, eradicate casts faster (which wasn't a part of the test I conducted at the time, since I'm a god and have basically insta-cast).

And you called me an Admin?!


[This message has been edited by Iyachtu (edited 08-11-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope didn't call you an Admin I said an Admin or someone, that I wasn't sure. But anyway, you are still confusing me by saying they are comparable or "compare favoribly" you compare things that are alike or similar right? If the amount of damage is significantly different then how do you compare them, wouldn't that be a contrast? Well anyway I don't wish this to turn into an arguement, but for me eridicate undead isn't worth the time or effort to forget full harm and mem eridicate undead especially in zones that have both a mix of undead and non.


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So whad are we gonna do tonight Brain? Same thing we do everynight Pinky, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
Jurdex
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Postby Jurdex » Sun Aug 11, 2002 8:05 pm

Back when we could see what our damage output was (we so need that feature back in the game, why was it removed) I tested eradicate and full harm.

Full Harm can do between 150 and 450. Its a pretty wide range of damage.

Eradicate did usually 250 and topped out around 450 from what I recall.

Personally, I think Eradicate should do a helluva lot more to undead.

Any invoker spell owns a cleric spell against undead. Then a cleric watches as his crappy undead spell gets nerfed by magic resistance. So? Make it so that eradicate can't be negated by magic resistance or make it a feature of the cleric that uses psps and not a spell.. It makes no sense that its a spell. I'm basically calling down my God's wrath (by shouting his name) on an undead and.. it says no thanks, Moradin isn't gonna hurt me today? heh.

Dornax
Jurdex

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Postby Guest » Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Deltin:
<B> Nope didn't call you an Admin I said an Admin or someone, that I wasn't sure. But anyway, you are still confusing me by saying they are comparable or "compare favoribly" you compare things that are alike or similar right? If the amount of damage is significantly different then how do you compare them, wouldn't that be a contrast? Well anyway I don't wish this to turn into an arguement, but for me eridicate undead isn't worth the time or effort to forget full harm and mem eridicate undead especially in zones that have both a mix of undead and non.


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Compare

2. To examine in order to note the similarities or differences of.

That's from Webster's.
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Aug 12, 2002 6:38 am

In fairness, the connotation I get from "compares favorably" is a slight increase, or "marginally better". Just an awkward choice of words, Itchy Image

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Joth
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Postby Joth » Mon Aug 12, 2002 4:05 pm

Jurdex,

I like your suggestions, maybe the coders should take good look at it. I stated in the past that cleric's should be tied with an invoker or #2 against undead for dealing damage.

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Deltin
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Postby Deltin » Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>Back when we could see what our damage output was (we so need that feature back in the game, why was it removed)

Dornax
Jurdex

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If we could see the damage done as numbers there would be more discussion and comparison of character classes and spells.
There would just be a flury of "why does "x" invoker spell do 5 more hp damage than an enchanters "x" spell etc. I personally would love to see how much damage my spells do or don't do for that matter weapons as well.
Definatelly weapons if not spells.


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So whad are we gonna do tonight Brain? Same thing we do everynight Pinky, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
Ashemiem
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Postby Ashemiem » Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:55 pm

I like Dornax's ideas for the eradicate undead as well. Naturally I also like my idea to alter turn undead into an innate. Image

Is it possible to allow clerics a skill-set focused on dealing with undead? Even a turn undead skill or something that we could practice would let us take a more active role against the undead beasties Image

Ashemiem

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Mplor group-says 'dugmaren must be very proud... he levels us up in smoke and de-levels us in muspelheim'

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